Little Help optimizing within the fine line between Powerful and "gets declined"?

[GrayDeath]

So...I`d like to ask four your help in a rather unusual Short Campaign our GM is planning to run.


First the Basics: it will be using different Wizard Settings, but mostly end us somewhere on the planes/in Sigil if I know his tastes.

The limits are as follows:
No T1 CLasses or T1/+Prestige Classes. Period.
T2 Classes are allowed but obviously exploiteable things like Wishes, anything that produces endless loops, and Ice Assassin are banned. Minionmancy is fine as long as it is the clear focus of the Chracter and does not fall into above. Also T2 CLasses may only multiclass with one other Base Class and/or Prestige Class.
T3 Classes are not only allowed but allowed Gestalt Rules with other T3 and 4 Classes IF one part of the Gestalt is "full level" and no more than 3 Classes make up the other half.
T4 and below can freely mix and match with T4 and below. They also get to roll 8 dicerolls for attributes and keep the best 6.

Attribute Roll is 2d6+6.
(obviously I have not rolled yet^^)

WBL is full, Starting Level is 12 (yes indeed).

Allowed Material includes everything Pathfinder official and not whacky" third party, as well as some imported 3.5 classes (we use the improved Warlock from this forum for example so a bit good houseruling is in)

Regarding Races everything without Racail Hitdice is allowed, ARG built races are allowed but subject to the titles limitations.

Our group includes almost exclusively what I would call "FluffPowergamers", ergo people who pick a cool (sometimes deep) concept and then optimize the hell out of it ... but like myself they are to be expected to be stumped by the limitations (except for mace, he always plays an elven Sorcerer^^).


Now what I want is a true Powerhouse that avoids all the above problems.

my thoughts were to take Warlock as "full" side for its obvious Greatness in providing passive bonuses and utility.

What build would you suggest for the other half? My first (obviously flawed) thought as: what about Paladin/GLaivlock Gestalt"?



Thank you for your builds/Suggestions!

[Eldan]

I quite like Binder/Warlock, if just for the theme.

[GrayDeath]

I quite like Binder/Warlock, if just for the theme.

Me too ... just I haven`t played a Binder in Ages and am not quite certain its a good Idea in a campaign bound to land him where his "free labor" might come from ^^

[Kaje]

Warlock/Mindbender/Hellfire Warlock/Legacy Champion//Dark Companion Hexblade/Binder

[GrayDeath]

You do realize that this is A: in Violation of the "forbidden things", and B: no build but simply stringing classes together, and hence quite unhelpful? ^^

[Eldan]

If you want a martial glaivelock, how about Glaivelock/Crusader? Maneuvers should go quite well with glaive.

[nedz]

If you want a martial glaivelock, how about Glaivelock/Crusader? Maneuvers should go quite well with glaive.

I was going to suggest Swordsage // Warlock. Both should work quite well.

[One Step Two]

For a game that involves traversing the planes, I am going to offer a build idea that straddles a little on the 'May get declined' side of things.

You want to build Bard 10/Sublime Chord 1/Malconvoker 1. The best part being that Malconvoker is 9 levels, so you don't miss anything except the Sublime chord class features after 1st, but it's the spells we want most.

You start life as a somewhat powerful buffer/social character, and then start using Malconvoker for some minionmancy, the idea mostly is to use your nice high charisma to bind any kind of outsider to act as guides to the planes, but for the most part to help round out what your party needs. Need a bruiser? Hezrous are hardy, need some guidance on the plane of fire? Salamanders. That sort of thing.

The really cool factor, is that you can use your improved summoning and binding abilities to build the most eclectic and awesome band in all the Great Wheel! You take ranks in Perform (sing), a Lillend on lead guitar, An Axiomatic Girallon on Drums, and Barbazu on Bass, with Succubi Backup dancers, you'll be sold out everywhere!

On the optimization side of things, talk to your DM, see if you can use the Gestalt rules for the bard levels, pick up either rogue levels for more skills, or better yet, Marshal for the Fort saves, and really make those Charisma bonuses synergies

I hope this gives you some inspiration :smallbiggrin:

[GrayDeath]

Hmmmm Warlock 20//Bard 10, Sublime Chord 1, Malkonvoker 9?

That IS an interesting Concept, as is the idea of a Band From All Planes.

Sounds more than cool and fun enough to get his starting approval. I`ll give the Concept to him for "trial".

Thank you. :)

[Janthkin]

If you're willing to forego level 4 Bard spells, you might do Bard 9/Malconvoker 1/Sublime Chord 2/Malconvoker 2-9 instead. It gets you Song of Arcane Power for the Sublime Chord, which is inherently nifty.

[One Step Two]

Hmmmm Warlock 20//Bard 10, Sublime Chord 1, Malkonvoker 9?

That IS an interesting Concept, as is the idea of a Band From All Planes.

Sounds more than cool and fun enough to get his starting approval. I`ll give the Concept to him for "trial".

Thank you. :)

You're more than welcome. Warlock is pretty good, as it has some excellent Charisma synergies, and who doesn't love at-will powers?

However, I've had this issue in a gestalt game before, where you may find you're going to be hard pressed to decide on an action. The temptation to throw out an Eldritch Blast or two will always be super tempting, at the cost of concentrating on a spell, or using something like bardic music, so just be ready for that.

[Anthrowhale]

If I understand correctly, the constraints are based on base class tier, so the obvious thing to do is to pick crappy base classes and just use the prestige classes. If you can get two flaws and the Illumian race, you can use Warmage 1 and qualify immediately for Rainbow servant using Heighten spell, Versatile Spellcaster, and Improved Sigil(Krau). Hence, you can start with Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Full Caster 9. This gives spontaneous access to all cleric spells with warmage level 8 or 12 casting depending on whether you use the table or the text. Remember, Versatile spellcaster plausibly provides "access" to spells of one level higher than normal.

On the other side, I'd be tempted to load up on passives like Hexblade, Paladin, Marshal, etc... There are many of them, and together they can push saves much higher. Iajutsu Master is tempting both for the Initiative bonus and the giant damage bonus. Another option is Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1 which provides more spell versatility and implies that your caster level goes up a bit. You might also go with Spellthief 12 + Master Spellthief to jack caster level way up. A third is something like Hexblade 7/Divine Crusader 10, which provides access to L9 spells from a chosen domain at L16. With appropriate prestige classes (Contemplative, Divine Oracle, etc...) this can be access to several domains. Warlock/Hellfire warlock also sounds compelling, particularly with the appropriate cleric spells to recover Con damage.

[GrayDeath]

Tier 1 Prestige CLasses are as banned as Tier 1 Base CLasses (and Rainbow Servant alone is tier 1, with the potential for tier 0).
Though I have to admit I am not sure what slightly below Tier 11 Prestige Classes will face....I ahve sent him the concept .... though Sublime Chord and Malconvoker might already be too much, even if put on a Chassis that does not scream "OP!!!" too loudly.

Generally I want to avoid anything that might get me outright banned from this cool concept (and starting with "arguably" is a sure way to do that ^^).


@ Decisions: true. But even if I cannot blast, being buffed to the core and/or at will mobility/invisibility/Undead Minions are more than good for a "passive" side ^^

@ Yanthkin: hmmm, mayhap. Fits the Song theme better, but its been almost 9 years since I last played a Sublime Chord (and I never played a Malconvoker to be honest)....

[Rebel7284]

Hmm, what about Human Beguiler 12 // Factotum 8/Chameleon 4? The skills are a little redundant, but you are a full caster with a good spell list and extra actions and can use the floating feat to pick up Arcane Disciple/Planar Touchstone[Catalogues of Enlightenment] for getting access to nearly any spell within a 24 hour notice. Also, Int to everything.

I think that fits all the requirements :)

[Anthrowhale]

Tier 1 Prestige CLasses are as banned as Tier 1 Base CLasses (and Rainbow Servant alone is tier 1, with the potential for tier 0).

Do you have a definition for of Tier 1 Prestige classes? I'm familiar with this (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) but the terminology is different---they talk about offsets to tier.

[Tvtyrant]

At the highest end I would go Mystic Wildshape Ranger/Planar Shepard//Dread Necromancer.

At a more moderate level switch out Planar Shepard for Master of Many Forms.

[GrayDeath]

Hmm, what about Human Beguiler 12 // Factotum 8/Chameleon 4? The skills are a little redundant, but you are a full caster with a good spell list and extra actions and can use the floating feat to pick up Arcane Disciple/Planar Touchstone[Catalogues of Enlightenment] for getting access to nearly any spell within a 24 hour notice. Also, Int to everything.

I think that fits all the requirements :)

I dont want to play a Factotum again. I am sick of being the "goToGuy" when skills as general are considered.
Dont get the wrong Idea, I like that concept and have played similar Characters in D&D and other Systems (the "can do it all guy), but this time I want more power and style and less "wait, cant I do THAT too?".

Still thank you.


Do you have a definition for of Tier 1 Prestige classes? I'm familiar with this (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) but the terminology is different---they talk about offsets to tier.

In short he defined it as "gives full casting from a (mostly) unlimited list without losing you other stuff".
So yes I am aware Sublime Chord COULD qualify. I hope not though.

The "mods base class" has the problem that it always assumes you take them with the most regular base class that allows it but the total Tier Level modification is a bit iffy. After all full casting from lists of high power is tier 2 at least, no matter where it comes from and so on.


At the highest end I would go Mystic Wildshape Ranger/Planar Shepard//Dread Necromancer.

At a more moderate level switch out Planar Shepard for Master of Many Forms.


THank you.

But as general rule I really would appreciate more detailed builds (assuming decent stats at minimum seeing our roll variant) isnteasd of simply listing combos.

Thank you all.

[AvatarVecna]

If I'm understanding correctly, this is a PF game with 3.5 content tentatively approved? Cool. Let's build you a commando.

HumanFighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter) (Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden)) 12//3.5 Scout 4/Ranger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger) (Divine Marksman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/divine-marksman-ranger-archetype)) 8

Stats
My Hypothetical Rolls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21146657&postcount=8)

Lvl 1: 13/19/15/14/13/12
Lvl 4: 13/20/15/14/13/12
Lvl 8: 13/20/15/14/14/12
Lvl 12: 13/20/16/14/14/12

Skills

Acrobatics: 12 ranks
Climb: 12 ranks
Disable Device: 12 Ranks
Knowledge (Arcana): 7 ranks
Knowledge (Dungeoneering): 1 rank
Knowledge (Geography): 1 rank
Knowledge (History): 1 rank
Knowledge (Local): 1 rank
Knowledge (Nature): 7 ranks
Knowledge (Planes): 7 ranks
Knowledge (Religion): 7 ranks
Perception: 12 ranks
Sense Motive: 12 ranks
Stealth: 12 ranks
Survival: 12 ranks
Swim: 12 ranks

Feats



Lvl
HD
Fighter
Ranger
Scout


1
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot




2

Weapon Focus (Longbow)




3
Improved Initiative





4

Weapon Specialization (Longbow)

3.5 Quick Reconnoiter


5
3.5 Swift Hunter

Bullseye Shot



6

Clustered Shots
Rapid Shot



7
3.5 Improved Skirmish





8

3.5 Knowledge Devotion




9
Improved Critical (Longbow)





10

Critical Focus
Manyshot



11
3.5 Greater Manyshot





12

Improved Precise Shot
Weapon Focus (Longsword)




Normally, a Swift Hunter has three big issues: not enough skills to be a fully operational commando, not enough feats, and low accuracy with Greater Manyshot (if you're going that route with Swift Hunter, anyway). Converting into PF solves both problems: not only does the gestalt grant us Fighter bonus feats, the PF feat progression is faster; the skills problem is dealt with both by PF combining lots of skills together and by the Lore Warden granting additional skill points as a class feature rather than a chassis upgrade (one of the reasons I like using Lore Warden for gestalt martials); finally, the accuracy problems are solved with Knowledge Devotion, Weapon Training from the Fighter, and the Vicious Aim feature of the Ranger archetype used. If your DM is willing to approve the 3.5 material used here, you'll have yourself a highly skilled, versatile, bow-wielding commando.

Biggest issue I can see coming out of this is that Swift Hunter is sort of a theurge option, which tends to get a hairy eyeball in gestalt. Still, would at least be worth asking, if this kind of thing interests you.

[Anthrowhale]

Ok, a new plan.

Take Favored soul 8/Divine Disciple 4/Favored Soul 8.

At level 3 take Versatile Spellcaster
At level 6 take 'Initiate of Mystra'. This gives you the ability to cast spells in an AMF. It also allows you to cast arcane spells.
At level 9 take 'Arcane Mastery'. This allows you to take 10 on caster level checks.
At level 12 take Selective Spell.
At level 12, take the Magic Domain. This gives access to AMF as a 6th level spell.
At level 12, cast an AMF and use IoM+Arcane Mastery to cast other spells.

With AMF on you can handle many encounters since you have access to magic, but most magic can't touch you. If you appear next to an enemy, they suddenly lose access to all magic (Spells, SLA, Su) including Su DR. As a consequence you can function as a mobile super-debuffer for enemies.

The sorcerer, with warning, can use Orb spells for compatibility.

If you maximize strength + size (Polymorph via greater anyspell + righteous might) + BAB(divine power) you can become a decent grappler which actually works in an AMF. Most enemies are either big with no ability to use magic in an AMF or small and vulnerable to an AMF grapple. Some of them small ones might be counting on freedom of movement for immunity to grapple.

In some situations (i.e. beholder parties), the party can cluster around you to shelter against magic.

You can use Versatile Spellcaster + Selective AMF to grant one ally the ability to cast spells in the AMF (although effect is supressed in the AMF). Alternatively, you could use Selective Spell on yourself and take a reserve feat to plink your way through most challenges.

With an AMF, most magical barriers are bypassable.

To make this overpowered, take a level of the Ghost savage progression, buy off the level adjustment, and use Selective(you) AMF. Since the AMF does not effect you, you (as incorporeal undead) are not suppressed, yet magic other than your spells is still suppressed. However, since you are incorporeal, nonmagical things (weapons, projected orb spells, etc...) cannot effect you. Your vulnerability set is reduced to something like IoM Spells, Invoke Magic spells, and Serren Wood weapons.

Overall, there are many ways to employ the AMF in interesting otherwise-unavailable tactics.

[Tvtyrant]

Wildshape Ranger- Alternative class feature that gives the Ranger a less effective version of wildshape, but good enough to get into Druid prestige classes.

Mystic Sword of the Arcane Order Ranger- An alternative (mystic) Ranger which gets access to 1-5 level spells at the same rate as a Wizard or Druid and has a bigger spell list then the normal ranger. Sword of the Arcane Order lets you use those slots for wizard spells, making you in essence as full BaB Wizard until level 10.

Planar Shepherd- An extremely powerful prestige class that lets you pick a plane of existence and become any outsider from it using wildshape, and gain the spell like abilities of that outsider.

So going Wildshape Ranger/Planar Shepherd moves you up into tier 1 by making you first a full caster, then getting you a huge number of spell like abilities and wildshape forms.

If that is too strong, Master of Many Forms is another wildshape based prestige class which doesn't give you spell-like abilities but lets you eventually turn into almost any type and of sizes up to gargantuan. It is solidly tier 3, and only requires wildshape ranger instead of Mystic Ranger to be effective.

Then you have the other side of the equation. Since the builds are wildshape orientated you want passive buffs and abilities instead of actively casting spells. I picked Dread Necromancer earlier for minions and immunities, but its casting stat doesn't exactly line up. Instead you might want to go Incarnate, Totemist, or whatever the Pathfinder alternative is (something something veils I believe). These are good because the soul melds are all day buffs, and stay active while you transform.

So a good build might be: Wildshape Ranger 6/Master of Many Forms 6//Totemist 12.

Race: Kobold (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Comes with a bite and two claws if you use the link, needed to get multi-attack.

Str (dump stat), Dexterity (dump stat), con 18+, int (probably a dump stat), Wisdom 16, Charisma (Probably a dump stat).

Int and charisma are up to you, whether you want to talk well or have skill points. Con is your highest score, since it effects HP and soulmeld abilities. Everything else is handled by your MoMF shapes, and your scores are going to be high.

Feats: Alertness, multi-attack, probably improved multi-attack.

How it plays: You have ten wildshape uses a day at this level, can turn into an animal, giant, monstrous humanoid, fey, vermin, or aberration of between tiny and huge size, can improve almost any skill using totemist with powers that last the whole day. Totemist can add natural attacks to your forms, so turning into a hill giant and then adding bite/claw/claw/sting/stomp is pretty easy. You don't really need most magic items as you can get flight with wildshape, short range teleport through totemist, ranged weapons from either and have fast movement options.

[GrayDeath]

Update: sadly the interdimensional Rockstar has been declined on Virtue (or Sin^^) of needing 2 powerful prestige Classes.

He also ruled that one cannot be a Warlock and a Favoured Soul at the same time in his interpretation of the setting, sadly. That combo DID look quite good too.


The Kobold Wild Shape Ranger Amalgamation, powerful that it is, is simply not to my tastes, still thank you very much for the detailed post! ;)

I am still a bit sold on one side being Warlock, ad would ask for other, stylish and especially powerful, suggestions.
Best if the other side really only contains Tier 3 Classes and no more than one (good) Prestige Class though, to be on the "safe" side (if possible^^).

[Cerefel]

Well there is always the option of going Warlock//Bard and trying to do the interdimensional band thing anyway, even if it's a little harder

[Anthrowhale]

The Favored Soul suggestion wasn't meant to be paired with a warlock---it's a different and not very compatible character concept. Furthermore, I tend to agree that Favored Soul is tier 2, so it would violate the rules laid out.

If the character concept is a warlock then maybe maximize the warlock-ness? Since Warlock is T4, let's go for T4 and below to get better stats and more flexibility.

On one side: Warlock 5/Mindbender 1/Warlock 3/Hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock 8
On the other side: Barbarian(Lion Spirit) 1/Fighter(Dungeon Crasher) 2/Ranger 1/Marshal 1/Chameleon 2/Enlightened Spirit 10/?? 5

Hellfire Warlock allows give you +6d6 damage for the cost of 1 con. Enlightened Spirit effectively (but not actually) double advances blast damage. Together, these allow you to max out with a 20d6 eldritch blast. Doing iteratives (via Eldritch Glaive) that additionally apply essences which debuff allows you to deal substantial damage and prepare enemies to suffer from allies.

Mindbender 1 qualifies you for Mindsight at level 6 which provides 100' radius radar. Barbarian gives you pounce, which should work particularly well with the clawlock variant. Fighter provides some bonus feats and damage. Ranger and Marshal provide save bonuses. Chameleon 2 provides a floating bonus feat which allows you pick the invocations for the day or do magic items.

Read the warlock handbook for more ideas.

[Janthkin]

Update: sadly the interdimensional Rockstar has been declined on Virtue (or Sin^^) of needing 2 powerful prestige Classes.
I am still a bit sold on one side being Warlock, ad would ask for other, stylish and especially powerful, suggestions.You could just back it down a touch - go Warlock||Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8. You can still do Summoning spells out of Sublime Chord, you just don't have all the uber-buffs of the Malconvoker. (Virtuoso isn't mandatory here, it's just that Virtuoso 3-10 are generally better than Sublime Chord 3-10, and better advance the rockstar theme.)

Bonus points if you can fit Dragonfire Inspiration into your Bard - Demons with flaming "axes" (or axes) rock harder.

[One Step Two]

Darn, I had a feeling it might have gotten shot down. That said, you can actually still play a Bard/Malconvoker, just leaving off the sublime chord, you lose access to 9th level spells, but Malconvoker adds the Planar binding spells to your list.

Another alternative being: Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 2/Malconvoker 9/Lyric Thaumaturge 4

Lyric thaumaturge lets you customise your spell list a little more, but you never achieve more than 6th level spells, and a few other nifty features.

Other ideas:

how does you DM feel about playing Monsterous races? For something that's more for playing up the social guile side of things, Warlock//Succubus(or incubus if you prefer). There's a progression in Savage Species for the monster race you can use that only needs minor tweaks for 3.5 to make it match the monster manual entry. You can finish it off with Rogue levels to add more skills, and sneak attack to your eldritch blasts, plus, you can use it as a segue to get access to Hellfire Warlock if you want that PrC. The alignment will pose a problem to some, but the charisma synergy is awesome, plus roleplaying oppertunities for shape shifters are always cool.

Speaking of shapeshifting:

Changeling Warlock//Rogue/Warshaper

A Changeling auto-qualifies for warshaper giving you +4 str and Con when not in your natural form (so all the time), and gives you a natural weapon with reach. People will see you blasting with Eldritch blasts all the time, and wont expect you to be a somewhat decent meleer to boot. I suggest rouge levels purely because the skills are always good, and Sneak attacks never hurts (as long as you get wands of gravestrike etc).

[MirddinEmris]

If you are going for power, then Warblade // Factotum is a good choice, you can splash warblade levels with Eternal Blade PrC or factotum levels with Chameleon depending on the role you want to play. Both have nice amount of passive and active abilities, and active abilities of factotum can be used in conjunction with most active abilities of any other class, since for the most part they don't eat actions, and can even grant them. Also both classes have encounter-based systems, so, don't be afraid to run out of your main cannons. Factotum also have certain amount of spells per day that can be changed every day for what you would need them to be, up to 7th level. Diamond Mind's (Moment of Perfect [save]) and Iron Hearts' (Wall of blades, Iron Heart Surge) maneuvers combined with Factotum's ability to add Int to almost any roll means that your defenses will be very high. Passive abilities will grant you Int to MANY rolls, for example 3rd lvl of Factotum + 11th lvl of Warblade means that you add 2 * Int to opposed checks like grapple, trip etc.

I would suggest to make Str and Int your two main stats, put a decent score in Dex and Con (about 14) and go to town)

Nice trick is to put two enchantments of Martial Discipline Weapon (ToB) on your weapon. Pick two your main schools (probably Iron Hear and Diamond Mind), it will grant you +3 unnamed bonus to your attacks all the time and +7 at the time you will activate maneuvers from both of your schools (like standing in Diamond Mind stance and activating Iron Heart maneuver).

P.S. You don't have to be "GoToGuy" for skills. Just pick ones that will aid you in battle (movement and perception skills mainly, and knowledge if you have Knowledge Devotion, which you probably should in that build) and don't bother with social and thieving skills. Basically you can play mainly as a warblade that is heavily augmented by factotum abilities. No one will even think about asking you to pick locks

[Anthrowhale]

Mostly for my own edification, I realized there was a better way to do the favored soul approach.

Take a Spontaneous Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) 7/Hathran 5. You must be human. The spontaneous cleric should count as tier 2, although it's a marginally better tier 2 like the Psion.

Take the Magic Domain and the Divine Magician ACF for clerics. Maybe add the cloistered variant for the Knowledge domain.

Feats are:
1. Ethran
Human. Versatile Spellcaster
3. Initiate of Mystra
6. Leadership
9. Ocular Spell
12. Arcane Mastery

Strategies:

1) As a Divine Magician take Starmantle for your L6 spell. Starmantle + AMF makes you immune to weapons and magic. This apparently applies to natural weapons as well. The dragon with no teeth left will learn a hard lesson. Add Greater Anyspell(Draconic Polymorph(War Troll)) to become a bruiser.

2) As a Hathran, use circle magic to boost your caster level to 40, making SR irrelevant.

3) With IoM, prepare two ocular shivering touches with greater anyspell and use circle magic to maximize and empower inflicting 46.5 dexterity damage on a ranged touch.

4) With IoM prepare a dominate person using circle magic to heighten to L20 virtually guaranteeing a failed save.

If Hathran counts as a "Tier 1 prestige class", then maybe take Divine Oracle/Lore Master (free qualification via Frog God's Fane), Fate Spinner, Paragnostic Apostle, or Contemplative instead and focus on DMM(Persistent Spell) with the feats freed up.

[GrayDeath]

You could just back it down a touch - go Warlock||Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8. You can still do Summoning spells out of Sublime Chord, you just don't have all the uber-buffs of the Malconvoker. (Virtuoso isn't mandatory here, it's just that Virtuoso 3-10 are generally better than Sublime Chord 3-10, and better advance the rockstar theme.)

Bonus points if you can fit Dragonfire Inspiration into your Bard - Demons with flaming "axes" (or axes) rock harder.





Darn, I had a feeling it might have gotten shot down. That said, you can actually still play a Bard/Malconvoker, just leaving off the sublime chord, you lose access to 9th level spells, but Malconvoker adds the Planar binding spells to your list.

Another alternative being: Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 2/Malconvoker 9/Lyric Thaumaturge 4

Lyric thaumaturge lets you customise your spell list a little more, but you never achieve more than 6th level spells, and a few other nifty features.

Other ideas:

how does you DM feel about playing Monsterous races? For something that's more for playing up the social guile side of things, Warlock//Succubus(or incubus if you prefer). There's a progression in Savage Species for the monster race you can use that only needs minor tweaks for 3.5 to make it match the monster manual entry. You can finish it off with Rogue levels to add more skills, and sneak attack to your eldritch blasts, plus, you can use it as a segue to get access to Hellfire Warlock if you want that PrC. The alignment will pose a problem to some, but the charisma synergy is awesome, plus roleplaying oppertunities for shape shifters are always cool.

Speaking of shapeshifting:

Changeling Warlock//Rogue/Warshaper

A Changeling auto-qualifies for warshaper giving you +4 str and Con when not in your natural form (so all the time), and gives you a natural weapon with reach. People will see you blasting with Eldritch blasts all the time, and wont expect you to be a somewhat decent meleer to boot. I suggest rouge levels purely because the skills are always good, and Sneak attacks never hurts (as long as you get wands of gravestrike etc).



Hmmm, both the secondary Rockstar Options here seem fun enough for me, I`ll try to get one of them accepted.

barring that the Changeling is fun but not what I am looking for atm.

he is open to any and all Races without LA (or max LA 1 and it will be gone at L2 anyway), racial HD are fine.
Does that change your suggestions?

@ Other FS: even if I`m not taking it, thank you. Gave me an idea for another Character. ^^

[dascarletm]

You're more than welcome. Warlock is pretty good, as it has some excellent Charisma synergies, and who doesn't love at-will powers?

However, I've had this issue in a gestalt game before, where you may find you're going to be hard pressed to decide on an action. The temptation to throw out an Eldritch Blast or two will always be super tempting, at the cost of concentrating on a spell, or using something like bardic music, so just be ready for that.

Don't worry at level 7 for a pathfinder bard starting a performance is a move action, and maintaining is a free action.

[One Step Two]

Hmmm, both the secondary Rockstar Options here seem fun enough for me, I`ll try to get one of them accepted.

barring that the Changeling is fun but not what I am looking for atm.

he is open to any and all Races without LA (or max LA 1 and it will be gone at L2 anyway), racial HD are fine.
Does that change your suggestions?

@ Other FS: even if I`m not taking it, thank you. Gave me an idea for another Character. ^^

For the Pure warlock option I was suggesting the succubus race, which will take up one side of your gestalt for 12 levels under 3.5 rules, but some DMs may not like you playing a monster race.

Another race that will go well for a CHA based build is Tiefling using the Fiendish heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fiendish-heritage) feat, but do talk to your DM about picking off the tables instead of rolling, RNG is a little frustrating after all. If your DM is being generous, you might get to act as if you "rolled" a 100, and pick two traits, but even if you only get one to choose, a lot of them are decent. There's flat +2 to Charisma in there, and other goodies.

Aasimar are always good, and humans too, because you're using PF you've got a lot of good races to pick from.


Don't worry at level 7 for a pathfinder bard starting a performance is a move action, and maintaining is a free action.

Nice! I'm not as up to speed on pathfinder as I am with 3.5, good to know though.

[Demidos]

That sounds like an awesome time to play a paladin//occulist

Pathfinder paladin is a solid chassis, gives great defenses, healing, and smiting. Occultist can be specced for damage, and with your mega-boosted ability scores, smiting, and occultist, you should be dishing out the hurt.

What is the fluff concept? A literal empty vessel of a character who is possessed by relentless champions of good. He acts as a gate for these spirits into the mortal realm, where they can carry out the tasks they left unfinished. While he isn't channeling spirits, he remains cataconic, only able to draw the necessary symbols, so he tries to channel as often as possible. Given the arbitrary roleplay restrictions you have imposed on yourself, ideally you could even get your DM to give you extra knowledge that the warrior in question might have had. Probably requires some slight refluffing of non-good vestiges.