[3.5] Help me build a dagger-throwing halfling rogue

[NickTheGreek3]

Hello there, people of Giant in the Playground forums! First time poster here, although I've spend days reading posts about d&d questions, builds and, of course, the OotS comic.

Back on topic, I used to play a Rogue/Swashbuckler some months ago, but got bored of him (+ had no idea how to play a rogue back then). Now, I'm thinking of going back to him, but retrain him (without the Swashbuckler levels) to use completely new tactics - throwing daggers. The character is a (level 12 now) Strongheart Halfling (same as normal halflings, except they get an extra feat at level 1 instead of the +1 racial bonus on all saves).

I want something effective (but not broken) that can easily sneak attack and can switch from throwing daggers to melee combat if needed (Two Weapon Fighting probably a must). Things that I have considered so far:

TWF can be used both for melee and for thrown weapons.
Weapon Focus (Dagger) and Weapon Finesse probably a must.
The Craven feat has been houseruled by the DM to deal 1 extra damage for each dice of sneak attack.
The Master Thrower prestige class seems promising (especially the "Sneaky Shot" thrown weapon trick).
The character would probably require either an endless supply of daggers or some with the returning property.


My stats are (can still be changed):
STR: 11 (13 base -2 racial)
DEX: 22 (17 base +2 racial +3 from levels 4, 8 & 12)
CON & INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 8
All 3.5 content except Tome of Battle maneuver classes and psionics are allowed.


Hope you guys can help me out. :smallsmile:

[A.A.King]

My favourite Halfing Dagger Throwing build is

Ranger 2 / Rogue 3 / Whisperknife 10 / Invisible Knife 5 (normally I'd add in some Swordsage but your DM banned that).

Whisperknife is a halfing-only prestige class from Races of the Wild and is based around Dagger throwing. It has class features that synergise with returning daggers and eventually at Whisperlevel Level 9 (so ECL 14 for you) you unlock the ability to flank creatures at range.

You would have to start with a level in Ranger if you want to enter by level 6.

Feats would be something like
01. Weapon Finesse
01. Point Blank Shot
01. Track (Ranger Bonus Feat, though can be traded away)
02. Two-Weapon Fighting (Ranger Bonus Feat)
03. Quick Draw
06. Precise Shot
06. Rapid Shot (Whisperknife Bonus Feat)
09. Craven
12. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.


If you really want to be a thrower first and a melee second you can take the first Halfling Rogue Racial Substitution Level which raises your sneak attack die for throwing weapons by 1, but lowers the sneak attack die for all other attacks.

[Jowgen]

Welcome to the playground, where the RAW is made up and the RAI doesn't matter :smalltongue:

I've made a few thrower builds in the past, lemme see what I can remembers...

Ranged Combat and TWF are feat intensive, so and with a thrower of your type you get the feat starving from both. Maximizing bonus feats is a must. Strongheart Halfling is likely your friend here, if your DM is fine with it. If not, there are other halfling sub-races that might be of interest to you (e.g. Ghostwise for limited telepathy). Check if you can take Flaws (UA) and frequently consult that really awesome feat buying recource some guy made (see my sig :smalltongue:).

For getting your ammo, it's usually a toss up between two approaches.

1: Nicely ask for a tweaked version of the Gloves of Endless Javelin (MIC) so that it produces daggers. Pro: Endless indestructable ammo with all the benefits of force effects (some debate on that to be fair). Cheap and effective for most builds. Con: You can't, by RAW, improve the Daggers/Javelin's produced by the Gloves and there are no easy workarounds, meaning you'd have to rely on homebrewing to pimp up your thrown weapons (expect a big price tag).

2: Go for your enchanted daggers as per your original idea. This can get real expensive real fast, and loosing a single one of your daggers can seriously set you back. One way to seriously reduce the long-term cost is to get the Glove of Taarnahm the Vigilant, a chainmail gauntlet that allows
the wielder to hurl any melee weapon he carries as though it had the throwing and returning special abilities (PgtF p. 123).

For PrC's there are 3 that are worth considering imo. You've covered Master Thrower, which I personally categorically include in every thrower I've ever had a hand in making. Then there is Peerless Archer, from Silver Marches. It's got some rather wasteful skill prerequesistes, some of its bow-specific abilities are wasted on you, and some of its abilities need serious updating to 3.5; but it is a source of some rare abilities, such as ranged Power attacks. Not a vital PrC, but it might maybe end up fitting.

Lastly, there is the Whisperknife as A.A.King mentioned. A Halfing specific dagger throwing PrC from Races of the Wild that uniquely comes with some abilities that off-set some of the drawbacks of throwing. I recommend giving it a read.

Those are my general pointers, hope they're helpful; if you get a fleshed out build together I might be able to think of some other stuff. :smallsmile:

[trikkydik]

Not sure how much this will help, but here it goes.

Opportunist is a feat that lets a rogue take attacks of opportunity against foes that have been hit by an ally. (They're usually flat footed Which means you can apply sneak attack damage.)

And if you are comfortable with the "feint" special attack, you can catch opponents off guard during normal combat.

Acrobatic attack, I think, does the same thing. By that I mean lets you catch an enemy flat footed before attacking.

Also I recommend going with daggers of ghost touch, they're not necessarily the most damaging weapon, but ethereal enemies can be troublesome. Having a weapon that can hurt them has saved me so many times.

I think that's all the input I have for a dagger throwing rogue. Good luck friend.

(Oh I just remembered!)
Daggers can be concealed as though you're not even armed. Not sure when that will help you, but just remember, as long as you have daggers equipped (and a good sleight of hand skill.) you are always armed.

And I'm pretty sure all daggers have a range of 10 feet, so they don't necessarily have to be THROWING daggers. (Not sure if you knew that, just throwing it out there.

[NickTheGreek3]

Thank you all for your recommendations, it gave me a lot of food for thought.

I've seen the Whisperknife prestige before and although it matches the character nicely, I don't think he benefits much from the class. Rapid Shot is kinda useless since TWF does the same thing for daggers, for both ranged and melee combat. The Improved Catch thing is ok, but my 2 main daggers will probably have the Greater Crystal of Return (cause enchanting them with the Returning property would cost a fortune), so even if I move after throwing them, I can call them from 30ft away as a move action. Rest are nice, but just not nice enough imo.

I can't believe I didn't notice Invisible Blade before. I've known the name but never bothered reading in detail what the class is (probably cause I stopped reading at the prerequisites). After a lot of erasing and smudging, this is the build I came up with:

1. Rogue 1 ([1+Halfling]Point Blank Shot + Far Shot)
2. Ranger (Urban) 1 ([Ranger]Favored Enemy: Human)
3. Ranger (Urban) 2 ([3] Weapon Focus: Dagger, [Ranger]Two Weapon Fighting )
4. Rogue 2
5. Rogue 3
6. Rogue 4 ([6] Craven)
7. Rogue 5
8. Invisible Blade 1
9. Invisible Blade 2 ([9] Precise Shot)
10.Invisible Blade 3
11.Invisible Blade 4
12.Invisible Blade 5 ([12] Weapon Finesse)

Urban Ranger (UA variant) matches the character's backstory (member of a Thieves Guild in a big city) and in 12 levels you get 10 BaB, 6d6 sneak attack with daggers (a level later from plain Rogue) and extra damage from Craven and Favored Enemy. After that, at least 1 level in Master Thrower, cause Quick Draw and the "Weak Spot" Thrown Weapon Trick that allows me to make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal attack (although I'll probably get smacked on the head with a DMG for picking this - it's just too good :smallbiggrin:)

Alternatevily, I could replace the 2 levels Ranger for 1 level Swashbuckler or Fighter to get Weapon Finesse instead of Weapon Focus and get into Master Thrower 1 level earlier.

[Eladrinblade]

Halfling rogue x/monk 1

best rogue build

monk gives you shuriken proficiency, flurry of blows, good saves, and a feat
shuriken are ammunition, meaning they are individually cheap (no worrying about returning) and can be drawn when attacking without needing quick draw
you can flurry with them

so, you can stack TWF with Rapid Shot and Flurry to get a high number of attacks, and a halfling who throws has some hefty bonuses to attack
add in a few simple spell buffs (reduce person, bless/inspire courage, cat's grace, prayer, heroism, haste, etc)

Improved Initiative, good stealth skills, high dex (you can dump strength), TWF/Improved/Greater, PBS, Rapid Shot, probably Precise Shot, Weapon Finesse

wear a couple of enchanted gauntlets so you can attack in melee without having to draw a weapon (you get your improved unarmed damage with them, but no flurry unless your DM allows it)

If you really don't want monk, get a wand of produce flame with as high a CL as you can afford, and max Use-magic Device
flame blade is good as well (I would think a melee touch can be finessed)
faerie fire is good for negating things that ruin sneak attack

[NickTheGreek3]

so, you can stack TWF with Rapid Shot and Flurry to get a high number of attacks

Wait... TWF and Rapid Shot STACK?!? 0_O

EDIT: Adding Master Thrower's Palm Throw to that...
I'm so getting smacked with a DMG!

[Jowgen]

Wait... TWF and Rapid Shot STACK?!? 0_O

I'd assumed you knew. Maxing out number of attacks is something throwers shine at.

Favored Enemy can work very nicely with Master Thrower, as the FE bonus on damage applies to both hits with a palm throw (unlike sneak attack). Be ware FE: Arcanist ACF, Hunting WSA boot blades, the Enemy Spirit Pouch (for more Favored Enemies) and the Girdle of Hate (Dragon Comp).

If you do go Monk as Eladrinblade suggested, try 2 levels of the Chaos Monk variant from dragon. More attacks on average, less alignment issue. Also, there is a lot of monk options out there in terms of the feats you can get.

The greater crystals of return are a decent fallback, but the Glove of Taarnahm the Vigilant will be a cheaper source of returning as soon as you go above 2 daggers, plus it keeps your crystal slot free. Hell, if your DM is real nice about it, you could ask to get a weapon special ability other than Throwing on the gloves. Seeking is nice; Precice would be good if your DM lets it count as precice shot for Mastere Thrower qualifying purposes.

For increasing your range, Far Shot costs 8000 or 9000 gp depending on which item you get it from. There are also gloves in the MIC that double thrown weapon range, and they're cheap enough to be a reasonable add-on to your existing gloves.

[NickTheGreek3]

I'd assumed you knew. Maxing out number of attacks is something throwers shine at.
I haven't played a character with Rapid Shot before, so I'm not clear on the rules. How do those 2 work in a full attack? Also, isn't it better to get Improved TWF instead? (-4 on all attacks is a hefty penalty).


The greater crystals of return are a decent fallback, but the Glove of Taarnahm the Vigilant will be a cheaper source of returning as soon as you go above 2 daggers, plus it keeps your crystal slot free.

For increasing your range, Far Shot costs 8000 or 9000 gp depending on which item you get it from. There are also gloves in the MIC that double thrown weapon range, and they're cheap enough to be a reasonable add-on to your existing gloves.
The Glove of Taarnahm is a nice find, I'll look into it. As for Far Shot, I need it to qualify for the Invisible Blade prestige. The Gauntlets of Extended Range give the benefits of Far Shot but not the feat itself (do those two stack?). There's the Helm of the Hunter which grants "the benefit of the Far Shot feat", amongst other things, but I don't know if I can use it to qualify.

[Eladrinblade]

I haven't played a character with Rapid Shot before, so I'm not clear on the rules. How do those 2 work in a full attack? Also, isn't it better to get Improved TWF instead? (-4 on all attacks is a hefty penalty).

If you get one attack at +10, you'll have +8/+8 with TWF, or +6/+6/+6 with TWF & Rapid Shot. As long as you have enough bonuses to balance it out, it's a good option. Don't get ITWF instead, get it in addition.

If you have two attacks, +10 and +5, with IWTF and RS, you'll have +6/+6/+6 and +1/+1

[Jowgen]

The Glove of Taarnahm is a nice find, I'll look into it. As for Far Shot, I need it to qualify for the Invisible Blade prestige. The Gauntlets of Extended Range give the benefits of Far Shot but not the feat itself (do those two stack?). There's the Helm of the Hunter which grants "the benefit of the Far Shot feat", amongst other things, but I don't know if I can use it to qualify.

It's a debated topic. Just ask yours DM this simple question: does qualifying for a PrC (or other feat) count as one of the benefits of having a feat?

Side-note: Horizon Goggle, Complete Mage p. 133, also grant benefits of Far Shot for 1000 gp cheaper, but without the spot bonus and temp darkvision (benefits ray spells which you likely don't need), but good to keep in mind for budget

[LordOfCain]

Maybe you should get a wand of Fell the Greatest Foe which gives you bonus damage against those who are larger than you.

[NickTheGreek3]

With the tragic death of my Duskblade, I'm reopening this subject. I'll finally roll the dagger-throwing halfling I planned, though I still haven't come up with a build.

Being able to both throw daggers and use them in melee is pretty feat-intensive and, as a lv 11 Strongheart Halfling, I have only 5 feats to use (flaws are not allowed).

I also have to choose at most 2 from 3 prestige classes: Invisible Blade, Whisperknife and Master Thrower (4 classes would give exp penalty).

Finally, the DM stated that I can't qualify for prestige classes with feats that items provide (cause what would happen if those items were taken off/destroyed?).


Waiting for recommendations. Help me, guys!

[Cerefel]

I also have to choose at most 2 from 3 prestige classes: Invisible Blade, Whisperknife and Master Thrower (4 classes would give exp penalty

Prestige classes don't count towards multiclass penalties

[stanprollyright]

Prestige classes don't count towards multiclass penalties

This. But if it's a DM-says thing or you just don't want to have that many classes I'd go with whisperknife/master thrower over invisible blade.

[NickTheGreek3]

Prestige classes don't count towards multiclass penalties
Could you tell me where that's stated?


This. But if it's a DM-says thing or you just don't want to have that many classes I'd go with whisperknife/master thrower over invisible blade.
I'd go with Whisperknife/Master Thrower too, since Invisible Blade looks melee-oriented (which makes the Far Shot prerequisite strange..), but that would require 5 different feats just to qualify for both of them. Also lower Sneak Attack progression.

[gorfnab]

Could you tell me where that's stated?
v.3.5 Main D&D FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a) - Page 30


In the previous version of the D&D game, having levels in a
prestige class never caused you to pay the experience
penalty for being a multiclass character without uneven
class levels. (The prestige class levels didn’t count when
checking to see if you had a penalty.) The section on
prestige classes in the new DMG no longer mentions that
you don’t suffer an experience penalty for having levels in a
prestige class. Is this a change or an error?
It’s an error. Having levels in a prestige class won’t give
you an experience penalty.


Items that may be of use to a dagger throwing build:
Rogue's Vest (MIC)
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM)
Bracers of the Hunter (SoX)
Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC) - changed to daggers to fit the build better

Here is a build I usually recommend for dagger throwers (it can also handle melee fairly well too). It does, however, use Tome of Battle and Dragon Magazine content.

Strongheart Halfling or Human
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven, Far Shot, 2x Flaws
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF(DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons, Shadowblade
7. Swashbuckler
8. Fighter - Hit-and-Run Tactics ACF (DotU - if your DM is lenient), Targeteer ACF (DragMag 310)- Vital Aim
9. Fighter - Targeteer ACF - Rapid Shot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Swordsage (for Assassins Stance)
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Dead Eye (DragMag 304)
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade