Overwatch: Nerf This (Thread)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'll also point out that, while yes it's theoretically possible she carries, for some reason, uzis loaded with rubber bullets for non-lethal purposes, four things.

#1: Those can still be fatal at the close ranges she was firing at.
#2: They're not at ALL reliable at knocking people unconscious, especially without lasting damage.
#3: There are MANY better non-lethal weapons available.
#4: Occam's Razor. There are so many hoops to jump through to justify non-lethal shootings from Sombra that the alternative (that she's killing people) is a MUCH safer assumption.

[Psyren]

So if you walk into a police station right now with 2 psychos, they start murdering people, and a cop sees that you're armed and shoots at you...you would consider yourself to be acting in self defense? What about cops at a school? A daycare? At what point do you hold yourself accountable for your own situation?

I'm trying really hard to be nice here, but this is the silliest thing anyone has ever said.

I greatly appreciate your restraint :smalltongue:

But speaking of silly, you're talking about a public figure in a high-security facility who happens to be on a Talon hitlist, not a "daycare" or a "school." These analogies are ludicrous; these are not innocent children, they're heavily-armed and armored enforcers employed by a high-priority target by Talon. Talon isn't going to stop trying to kill her just because Sombra asks nicely; Volskaya needs protection, and Sombra (being non-good) isn't going to stick her neck out and thwart her highly lethal employers merely for a gold star and a pat on the back.


Actually, infiltrating a top secret government facility DOES justify force: it's a known thing that governments do, and she's definitely expecting it. Going ARMED into such a place is worse, and hacking INTO such a place and THEN going armed into it is so over the top it's ridiculous. :smalltongue:

Also, the parallel is closer to HELPING two killers enter a facility, knowing that they're killers. That's morally on you at least a bit, even if you're not pulling the trigger.

Ordinarily you'd be right here, but Talon complicates matters considerably. "Help them infiltrate" means dead guards, but it also means you can control the engagement and be on the scene to make sure Chairman Volskaya makes it out of there alive. Refuse to help them, and Widow/Reaper simply ambush her limo instead and pop a cap in her without telling you about it, if they don't simply kill you too. Doing things this way leaves Sombra positioned to warn Volskaya of any future assassination attempts (since she retains Talon's trust), never mind whatever other Talon missions she can discreetly screw up.

So you tell them "don't worry, this will totally work, I can hack their security in my sleep" and they don't bother coming up with a messier plan that doesn't involve you - one that would actually succeed at killing Volskaya, even if it resulted in more headlines. They've clearly shown a willingness to carry out very public hits as we've seen in the Tracer video.



Finally, watch the video again. She's aggressively chasing her target, hacking systems to do so, and throwing projectiles at soldiers...and they haven't ONCE fired a shot at her directly. She's the one who opens fire, taking the uzi directly to two soldiers who haven't attacked her yet: they're just laughing that her first "attack" didn't seem to do anything. In short, she's CLEARLY the aggressor, and clearly a violent aggressor. The priority of the soldiers is getting Sombra's mark to safety, and not a bullet is fired her way until she starts it.

Greedo shot first, sure, I'll give you that. Who knows, maybe she had the luxury of kung-fu-ing guys that both had their guns drawn, with her in no armor and carrying a much weaker weapon. I do know that there were plenty of people that she bypassed without violence, like the two schmoes griping about the inspection. To me it seemed to be the minimum force she deemed necessary to get where she was going.



Sombra isn't morally neutral. She shows no hesitation about gunning down people en route to her target, opens a top-secret facility to two people she KNOWS are cold-blooded killers, and blackmails her victim. She's definitely not a good person, and definitely at least SOME shade of a BAD person.

Again, I never claimed she was a good person. But "shades of bad" != Evil either. Sometimes even the best available option results in a non-zero bodycount, but the truly important thing here is that Talon's mission failed, and Sombra is to blame (or thank, depending on your perspective.)



I have to wonder if people would be jumping to the character's defense if it was an ugly looking guy instead of a cute Latino chick.

Her ethnicity and looks are as irrelevant to me as her gender. It always amuses me when I get accused of white-knighting, however obliquely; quite apart from her being a fictional character and me being as gay as a marching band, my stance is based on pure pragmatism.

[SorenKnight]

But as for evidence of Chairman Volskaya's own importance, we have:

(a) Sombra calls her "the most powerful woman in Russia" and "defender against the Omnics."
(b) She's actively working on a defense measure against the Omnium
(c) She has the authority to bring in Zarya

So I'm going to go with that killing her would be bad news in general unless we see something that indicates otherwise.


At the end of the day, she's a double agent. This to me is like labeling Snape or SPOILER REMOVED CAUSE WHITE TEXT SHOWS IN QUOTES as evil - premature.

I never said that the lady wasn't important, just that her death wouldn't single-handedly plunge an entire country into chaos. The president of the USA is pretty important, but whenever one has died in office he has been replaced and the country has carried on.

And the fact that Snape switched sides doesn't erase his acts as a Deatheater, it just makes him sympathetic and understandable.


No, I didn't say it's okay - and I'd kindly ask you to please refrain from the thinly-veiled insults. What I said was (a) it's not evil to shoot back at people who are shooting at you, and (b) that even if it was, making contact with this woman to keep her alive (even for selfish reasons) might be important enough in the grand scheme of things to be worth that kind of calculus. 4 guards whose deaths we can't even verify vs. the loss of a woman who by all appearances is holding an entire country together. Again, not at all saying she is Good (she's not) but I'm willing to make a case for Neutral.

Excited children in museums aside, Overwatch has been set up to be a pretty morally-grey universe. Bastion's PTSD, the Shimada brothers, 76's brutal vigilantism, Winston's kindred staging a coup on the moon, Widowmaker's entire backstory, whatever the heck is going on with Mercy, there's lots of examples of people doing the wrong thing for the right reasons and vice-versa. I would say, take the whole into account before casting judgment, or at the very least accept that you're not going to get that kind of black-and-white worldview in this series.

How exactly does Bastion's PTSD reflect on Overwatch? He is not, and never has been, a member or affiliated in any way. Likewise only one half the Shimada brothers were involved with Overwatch (it would be easier to just say "Genji" really) and one of them was the active target of Overwatch's operations, 76's vigilantism has only occurred after Overwatch's fall and has been presented in a purely heroic light (his short being called "Hero" is a fairly large clue), and if you blame every member of a given species for the sins of any other member than both me and you are as guilty as Winston is.

I do confess that your viewpoint is theoretically possible, but their is no real evidence for it. Even your arguments say "Well they could still be alive." not "Well they are probably alive because of x evidence." I don't really fault you for that, I myself have plenty of theories that I believe because I want them to be true, but I acknowledge that they are not likely, merely possible.

[Necroticplague]

Also, her not helping doesn't necessarily even mean this misson wouldn't have occured. It simply wouldn't have occured in this fashion. If some of the comics and Reaper's reaction are any indication, not having a stealthy way in would have simply meant they would have taken a more 'kick down the doors' approach to the issue.

[Psyren]

I never said that the lady wasn't important, just that her death wouldn't single-handedly plunge an entire country into chaos. The president of the USA is pretty important, but whenever one has died in office he has been replaced and the country has carried on.

And the fact that Snape switched sides doesn't erase his acts as a Deatheater, it just makes him sympathetic and understandable.

And Neutral.


I'll avoid the real-world politics comment and just point out an obvious pattern here in Talon's behavior:

1) Talon wanted Mondatta dead; his Shambali doctrine was a route to peace between humans and omnics. They sent Widowmaker.

2) Talon wanted Athena's Overwatch database so they could assassinate their agents; Overwatch's mission is also to end the war between humans and omnics. They sent Reaper.

3) Talon wanted Doomfist's Gauntlet, which is displayed in Numbani's Heritage Museum (we escort it there during the non-canon game proper) as a symbol of Unity Day, i.e. heralding peace between humans and omnics. In addition to being a symbol, the gauntlet itself also has unknown powers. They send both Reaper and Widowmaker to that one.

4) They wanted Chairman Volskaya dead; reasons unclear, however for this one they send THREE of their top agents, so we can surmise that they want her dead pretty badly. Volskaya is working with at least one (rogue?) omnic to get advanced tech for Russia's defense. (sidenote: I'm predicting a "Geth vs. Heretics" scenario within the Omnium.)


Every other mission they've carried out was to destabilize relations between humans and omnics; the death of a powerful defender and sympathizer (to a faction at least) would fit in with that goal. Pulling that off would kill countless innocents even if that wasn't their primary objective.


How exactly does Bastion's PTSD reflect on Overwatch? He is not, and never has been, a member or affiliated in any way. Likewise only one half the Shimada brothers were involved with Overwatch (it would be easier to just say "Genji" really) and one of them was the active target of Overwatch's operations, 76's vigilantism has only occurred after Overwatch's fall and has been presented in a purely heroic light (his short being called "Hero" is a fairly large clue), and if you blame every member of a given species for the sins of any other member than both me and you are as guilty as Winston is.

Sorry - in that quote I meant "Overwatch" as a game/setting, not "Overwatch" the organization within that setting.



I do confess that your viewpoint is theoretically possible, but their is no real evidence for it. Even your arguments say "Well they could still be alive." not "Well they are probably alive because of x evidence." I don't really fault you for that, I myself have plenty of theories that I believe because I want them to be true, but I acknowledge that they are not likely, merely possible.

Actually my argument is "we don't know if they're dead, but even if they are, it may be in service to a greater good - or at least, greater neutral."

[Keltest]

I find the idea that evil has to be flashy and destructive and violent to be silly. She broke into a facility, shot some people, and blackmailed "the most powerful woman in Russia" for her own (unexplained) ends. Unlike, say, Widowmaker, she probably wouldn't be averse to some heroics if there was something in it for her, but that doesn't make her less of an evil person because she still hurts people for fun and/or profit.

[SorenKnight]

I'll avoid the real-world politics comment and just point out an obvious pattern here in Talon's behavior:

1) Talon wanted Mondatta dead; his Shambali doctrine was a route to peace between humans and omnics. They sent Widowmaker.

2) Talon wanted Athena's Overwatch database so they could assassinate their agents; Overwatch's mission is also to end the war between humans and omnics. They sent Reaper.

3) Talon wanted Doomfist's Gauntlet, which is displayed in Numbani's Heritage Museum (we escort it there during the non-canon game proper) as a symbol of Unity Day, i.e. heralding peace between humans and omnics. In addition to being a symbol, the gauntlet itself also has unknown powers. They send both Reaper and Widowmaker to that one.

4) They wanted Chairman Volskaya dead; reasons unclear, however for this one they send THREE of their top agents, so we can surmise that they want her dead pretty badly. Volskaya is working with at least one (rogue?) omnic to get advanced tech for Russia's defense. (sidenote: I'm predicting a "Geth vs. Heretics" scenario within the Omnium.)


Every other mission they've carried out was to destabilize relations between humans and omnics; the death of a powerful defender and sympathizer (to a faction at least) would fit in with that goal.

I don't, and never have, disagreed with the above. Talon does kill people. Targeting the Russian lady is consistent with their previous operations.


Pulling that off would kill countless innocents even if that wasn't their primary objective.

Replacce the would in that sentence with could and I'd agree with it too. Killing one person, no matter how powerful, doesn't automatically result in chaos. Yes, Talon killing someone to promote chaos would fit their MO, but so would killing someone for money, or for their own benefit. Without more information we don't know exactly which one motivated the attempted assassination in Volskaya. Killing her certainly could result in chaos, but it isn't a given.


Sorry - in that quote I meant "Overwatch" as a game/setting, not "Overwatch" the organization within that setting.

My bad, I really should have picked up on that one.


Actually my argument is "we don't know if they're dead, but even if they are, it may be in service to a greater good - or at least, greater neutral."

Fine, but killing someone in service to a neutral cause is, in my opinion, evil. Let's say that Sombra does have some neutral aim in mind. Buying a new TV, for the sake of example. Upgrading your TV is neutral overall, neither hurting anyone nor providing any substantial benefit to the world. But if I kill someone and take their TV, then it's an evil act. In order to compensate for several murders enough to make Sombra an anti-hero instead of a villain, she would need to have some truly noble purpose, which no evidence suggests she has. The only person who suspects she might have one is you, and the only reason you suspect it is because it would mean that she isn't evil.

Do you see the problem here? It's circular reasoning. The only reason that you can see reasons that excuse her actions is because you are looking for them. You created this "greater good" to excuse her actions, nothing in the story itself suggests them. If you had seen anything that actually provides a reason for her actions you would have told us when this argument started.


I myself can see one possible sympathetic reason for her actions, the conspiracy. In her trailer she mentions a conspiracy, the discovery of which lead to her upgrades (likely the actual abilities she has in game, like inbuilt hacking). Given the Russian lady's suspicious activities, it is possible that she and the Omnic that she spoke to are members of the conspiracy, which would explain why Sombra would want to blackmail her (to get more information on the conspiracy). This could give her an actual reason beyond money/power to want to blackmail her and would make viewing her as an anti-hero at least understandable to me.

Edit: And I segued from an argument into my own theories. This kind of reads incoherently to me now.

[Anteros]

Alright moving past this debate for the moment.

Sombra looks really, really fun to play. She's very fast paced, extremely mobile, can see enemies through walls, and hack health packs so the enemy can't use them. Her cooldowns are very low. There seems to be a lot of fun synergies with hacking enemy heroes too. You can completely shut an enemy tracer down with 1 button press, and I imagine that playing Ana against a good Sombra is going to be the most frustrating thing ever.

People were speculating that Mei would counter her, but she has too much mobility for that. Her real counter is going to be Winston, turrets, and heroes that don't rely much on their cooldowns.

I don't know yet if she'll see much competitive play but she's going to be an absolute monster pub stomp hero.

[Rising Phoenix]

Alright moving past this debate for the moment.

Sombra looks really, really fun to play. She's very fast paced, extremely mobile, can see enemies through walls, and hack health packs so the enemy can't use them. Her cooldowns are very low.

I don't know yet if she'll see much competitive play but she's going to be an absolute monster pub stomp hero.

She counters/negates Rein, Lucio and Ana and is countered by Hanzo, Pharah and Widow (assuming that widows and hanzos abilities negate her invisibility)... She's still squishy, but if you're getting hit you're playing her wrong.

She will probably have a huge impact on the meta.

[Anteros]

She counters/negates Rein, Lucio and Ana and is countered by Hanzo, Pharah and Widow (assuming that widows and hanzos abilities negate her invisibility)... She's still squishy, but if you're getting hit you're playing her wrong.

She will probably have a huge impact on the meta.

I don't think she actually counters any of them with organized teams. Her ult counters Lucio ult, but his song persists. She can counter Rein shield, but it's an ult so that's not that uncommon. Rein will still be top tier. Turning his shield off for 5(?) seconds every few minutes isn't going to change that. She counters Ana in a 1v1, but good teams will protect her so it won't be a huge issue in higher level games.

As for her stealth, it's not the source of her mobility. It's actually almost ancillary when you consider that she has a long range, almost instantaneous teleport on a 6 second cooldown. The teleport grenade is actually ridiculous.

[Rising Phoenix]

I don't think she actually counters any of them with organized teams. Her ult counters Lucio ult, but his song persists. She can counter Rein shield, but it's an ult so that's not that uncommon. Rein will still be top tier. Turning his shield off for 5(?) seconds every few minutes isn't going to change that. She counters Ana in a 1v1, but good teams will protect her so it won't be a huge issue in higher level games.

As for her stealth, it's not the source of her mobility. It's actually almost ancillary when you consider that she has a long range, almost instantaneous teleport on a 6 second cooldown. The teleport grenade is actually ridiculous.

Counter may have been the wrong word. Check is better. She would also counter Ana's ult I believe so that buffed Rein no longer hits as hard anymore.

All in all she will probably be as annoying as Mei, and I hate Mei.

[SorenKnight]

You can completely shut an enemy tracer down with 1 button press.

You do have to hold down the button for a while, and not take any damage or break line of sight during that time. I've only used Sombra in the new 1v1 mode, so I'm not sure how difficult that will be to land normally, but in 1v1 it was impossible.


She counters/negates Rein, Lucio and Ana and is countered by Hanzo, Pharah and Widow (assuming that widows and hanzos abilities negate her invisibility).

They do. I think Soldier can target her with his ult as well.

And if anyone didn't know yet she's on the PTR now, so any PC players can try for themselves.

[Anteros]

You do have to hold down the button for a while, and not take any damage or break line of sight during that time. I've only used Sombra in the new 1v1 mode, so I'm not sure how difficult that will be to land normally, but in 1v1 it was impossible.



They do. I think Soldier can target her with his ult as well.

And if anyone didn't know yet she's on the PTR now, so any PC players can try for themselves.

I haven't gotten to try her for myself yet since I have a ridiculous OB/GYN test coming up, so my impressions are just based on a few videos. I'll try her out this Wednesday for sure though.

[The_Jackal]

Looks like I missed some fun. I just have to respond to a few of them...


Unconsciousness is a thing you know :smalltongue:

When you've been shot, the most common cause of unconsciousness is hemorrhagic shock, ie: your blood is rapidly evacuating your body and your organs are failing. So in the case of being shot, without immediately medical attention, unconsciousness is the little death that brings total oblivion (http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/2-i-must-not-fear-fear-is-the-mind-killer-fear-is).


Even if she killed them though, they were armed guards ready to do the same to her (and in fact, did shoot at her more than once, so they weren't taking prisoners.) They knew what they signed on for.

There's two concepts lurking in this sentence, murder (ie: unlawful killing), and morality (ie: justified killing). They're not necessarily mutually exclusive. In the jurisdiction in which Talon is operating in this short, one can almost certainly state without fear of error that she's committing murder. What they're doing is against the law, and by most common law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law) standards, she's guilty of murder even if she never pulled the trigger, courtesy of the Felony Murder rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule). Simply put, if you commit a felony and one of your accomplices murder someone during the commission of the felony, you're equally liable.

However, I don't think what's really being argued is the legal liability of Sombra, rather whether her actions are justified, or at least, less nefarious than that of Talon. To that, I have to say, we've not been given nearly enough information to present anything close to an objective judgement, if such a judgement is even possible in the first place. If you're willing to accept the notion that there is such a thing as justified killing, then you've got to accept at least the possibility that what Sombra is doing may be in the service of what is (in her opinion) a greater good. We're certainly willing to accept that Tracer and Soldier 76 are trying to serve a greater good, and I'm confident their guns don't fire marshmallows.

Something to consider is just how arbitrary and subjective the concept of 'greater good' can be. History is filled with conflicts whose outcomes the victors will claim, "served the greater good", and we often justify armed intervention in the name of the "greater good" or "common welfare", yet these evaluations on the merit of the conflicts in question and its outcome inevitably suffer a 'survivor's bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias)'.

I'll bottom-line it for you: "You are what you do, not what you'll say you'll do" --Carl Jung. This means that, for the real world, motives are window-dressing, what matters is your actions and their consequences. Which, in the case of Sombra, means that she's a murderous double-agent who doesn't mind teaming up with, and betraying, people who are at least no better than she. If that's not enough to peg her as evil, it's my considered opinion that your moral bar might be too low.

[Psyren]

Replacce the would in that sentence with could and I'd agree with it too. Killing one person, no matter how powerful, doesn't automatically result in chaos. Yes, Talon killing someone to promote chaos would fit their MO, but so would killing someone for money, or for their own benefit. Without more information we don't know exactly which one motivated the attempted assassination in Volskaya. Killing her certainly could result in chaos, but it isn't a given.

I can only go off their demonstrated motive, which all signs point to as wanting to engender a new Omnic Crisis. To what end I can't guess, but it's fairly safe to say that would cause far more deaths than a couple of mooks if they succeed.


If that's not enough to peg her as evil, it's my considered opinion that your moral bar might be too low.

I understand why you feel that way, really I do, but I think such a simplistic viewpoint is willfully ignoring the realities of the situation. Betraying/Thwarting Talon while simultaneously staying a member is no easy feat - to summarily write off any potential good that can come of that, like an apparently prominent protector of a country of millions being saved from having free-flow ventilation forcibly installed in her cranium, or having an inside track to any number of their other schemes, strikes me as shortsighted at best.

Obviously I reserve the right to revise my assessment of her as more information on her goals is revealed or as the story develops, but I'm willing to bet that Volskaya not getting slaughtered is going to be just a little bit more impactful to the world as a whole than Random Henchman A's early retirement.

[Anteros]

I can only go off their demonstrated motive, which all signs point to as wanting to engender a new Omnic Crisis. To what end I can't guess, but it's fairly safe to say that would cause far more deaths than a couple of mooks if they succeed.



I understand why you feel that way, really I do, but I think such a simplistic viewpoint is willfully ignoring the realities of the situation. Betraying/Thwarting Talon while simultaneously staying a member is no easy feat - to summarily write off any potential good that can come of that, like an apparently prominent protector of a country of millions being saved from having free-flow ventilation forcibly installed in her cranium, or having an inside track to any number of their other schemes, strikes me as shortsighted at best.

Obviously I reserve the right to revise my assessment of her as more information on her goals is revealed or as the story develops, but I'm willing to bet that Volskaya not getting slaughtered is going to be just a little bit more impactful to the world as a whole than Random Henchman A's early retirement.

I've got to say...it takes an impressive amount of cajones for you to accuse other people of simplistically and willfully ignoring the realities of the situation here. This is kinda like the pot calling the unicorn black at this point.

There are dozens of ways she could have stopped an assassination without murdering people. She could have sent a warning. She could have just let the director get away after she seperates from Reaper. She could have stealthed or teleported past the guards without killing them. She could have just not hacked the facility to let Reaper and Widow inside in the first place. Etc.

She's a cold-blooded, self-serving, evil murderer. Period.

[AgentPaper]

I can only go off their demonstrated motive, which all signs point to as wanting to engender a new Omnic Crisis. To what end I can't guess, but it's fairly safe to say that would cause far more deaths than a couple of mooks if they succeed.

Well, the obvious answer would be that they don't believe that humans and omnics can co-exist, and are trying to get the humans scared enough of the omnics to finish the job, as it were.

Which makes sense for the Blackwatch/grey morality theme that's been set up. They're basically just continuing the job they started there in ending the omnic threat once and for all, no matter the cost.

[Psyren]

I've got to say...it takes an impressive amount of cajones for you to accuse other people of simplistically and willfully ignoring the realities of the situation here. This is kinda like the pot calling the unicorn black at this point.

Thank you.



There are dozens of ways she could have stopped an assassination without murdering people. She could have sent a warning. She could have just let the director get away after she seperates from Reaper. She could have stealthed or teleported past the guards without killing them. She could have just not hacked the facility to let Reaper and Widow inside in the first place. Etc.

Half of those could have easily tipped off Talon that she wasn't doing their bidding, while the other half could have simply failed. Stakes too high for errors.


She's a cold-blooded, self-serving, evil murderer. Period.

Until we see more, I disagree, period.

[Anteros]

She literally murdered people! You saw it! There's nothing to disagree with!

I wonder how you'd feel about her if it was your husband/dad/whatever she murdered for no reason instead of some faceless guard.

[Psyren]

She literally murdered people! You saw it! There's nothing to disagree with!

I wonder how you'd feel about her if it was your husband/dad/whatever she murdered for no reason instead of some faceless guard.

1) What I saw, was her shoot people in full body armor with an uzi, and they fell over.

2) Let's assume the worst and that they are dead. You're right, I wouldn't feel good about that. It's definitely an immoral act. Now, what I will say is that 1 act (or 4) do not an alignment make. What I will also say is that Volskaya's importance as a Talon target, and the things she was doing, would likely mean many more deaths if she passed away. Utilitarianism isn't for everyone, but I think that's the kind of universe being set up here.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

1) What I saw, was her shoot people in full body armor with an uzi, and they fell over.

Occam's Razor, Psyren. If you shoot people with an Uzi and they fall over, they're likely dead. Uzis don't magically knock people unconscious -- the guys in the hallway, maybe. The others are definitely dead: she wouldn't talk if there was ANY chance of them overhearing.

But if we're going with that, we have no proof that Reaper kills anyone either. He shoots people, and they fall over. Maybe it's hug bullets. :smalltongue:

[AgentPaper]

Occam's Razor, Psyren. If you shoot people with an Uzi and they fall over, they're likely dead. Uzis don't magically knock people unconscious -- the guys in the hallway, maybe. The others are definitely dead: she wouldn't talk if there was ANY chance of them overhearing.

But if we're going with that, we have no proof that Reaper kills anyone either. He shoots people, and they fall over. Maybe it's hug bullets. :smalltongue:

I mean, really they were probably injured, then later healed. Not much of a defense for Sombra, since she wasn't exactly trying to spare them and they could easily die regardless, but this is the future in a high-tech military base, it can't be far to get them to an high tech infirmary with healing nanobots or whatever.

[Landis963]

1 act (or 4) do not an alignment make.

Demeanor during those acts, however, can get you pretty close. And Sombra was enjoying her work with a smug, self-satisfied smirk almost the entire time there. Especially once Sombra had gotten the target where she wanted the target, the smugness is there to stay, during her shooting two guards, threatening Katya with murder, and threatening Katya's everything with absolute ruin. Look at her face during the line "I've always wanted a friend like that!" (around 4:37 on the official Youtube copy of the short) and tell me that she's an anti-hero.


What I will also say is that Volskaya's importance as a Talon target, and the things she was doing, would likely mean many more deaths if she passed away. Utilitarianism isn't for everyone, but I think that's the kind of universe being set up here.

It also seems pretty clear cut that the heroes do things for the right reasons, and the villains do things for the wrong reasons. Soldier prioritized saving Alejandra in his short, to the detriment of his crusade against Los Muertos. Sombra prioritized saving Katya in this short to the benefit of her crusade to be the one "pulling the strings."

[Pendulous]

She counters/negates Rein, Lucio and Ana and is countered by Hanzo, Pharah and Widow (assuming that widows and hanzos abilities negate her invisibility)... She's still squishy, but if you're getting hit you're playing her wrong.

She will probably have a huge impact on the meta.

I'm not gonna even bother trying to play her on the PTR, but from what I've seen, D.va seems to be a counter to her. Her spray is so wide, a single piece of shrapnel will decloak her. Also, she's the only way to destroy the translocator.

[Psyren]

But if we're going with that, we have no proof that Reaper kills anyone either. He shoots people, and they fall over. Maybe it's hug bullets. :smalltongue:

We don't - but sawed-off shotguns and high-powered sniper rifles vs body armor are leaner odds of survival than a light SMG against body armor, wouldn't you say?


Demeanor during those acts, however, can get you pretty close. And Sombra was enjoying her work with a smug, self-satisfied smirk almost the entire time there. Especially once Sombra had gotten the target where she wanted the target, the smugness is there to stay, during her shooting two guards, threatening Katya with murder, and threatening Katya's everything with absolute ruin. Look at her face during the line "I've always wanted a friend like that!" (around 4:37 on the official Youtube copy of the short) and tell me that she's an anti-hero.

I wasn't aware adrenaline was a moral failing honestly.

[Necroticplague]

I can only go off their demonstrated motive, which all signs point to as wanting to engender a new Omnic Crisis. To what end I can't guess, but it's fairly safe to say that would cause far more deaths than a couple of mooks if they succeed.

I don't know about the organization as a whole, but I always figured that for Reaper, personally, it's so he could finally get the recognition he thinks he deserves. Being black ops and not the 'face' of overwatch meant many of his actions is the last one were somewhat glossed over, or attributed to 76's leadership. So , current goal: provoke second omnic crisis by killing those working to stop it, save humanity from crisis, get recognized as savior of humanity. And thanks to 'winners write the history books', if all goes as planned, what's currently known to be merciless terrorism will be retroactively turned into a few brave rebels striking out at an enemy and their sympathizers/supporters while others were content to stand by and do nothing.

[LeSwordfish]

You seem to have come to the conclusion that sombra is a good guy and are then bending over backwards to defend that conclusion.

[Keltest]

1) What I saw, was her shoot people in full body armor with an uzi, and they fell over.

2) Let's assume the worst and that they are dead. You're right, I wouldn't feel good about that. It's definitely an immoral act. Now, what I will say is that 1 act (or 4) do not an alignment make. What I will also say is that Volskaya's importance as a Talon target, and the things she was doing, would likely mean many more deaths if she passed away. Utilitarianism isn't for everyone, but I think that's the kind of universe being set up here.

Ok, lets ignore the deaths for a moment. By her own admission, the only reason Volskaya lived is because Sombra wanted to use her. She didn't do it for altruism or to save lives or whatever, she did it so that she would have a high-power individual in her pocket.

She isn't an undercover Overwatch agent in Talon (or for any other organization or cause) either, shes just a mercenary who sees an opportunity. While I have no doubts she would throw Talon away at the first opportunity if she stood to gain from it, that doesn't make her a good person, just opportunistic. Fighting Evil does not automatically exclude you from that group.

[Landis963]

I wasn't aware adrenaline was a moral failing honestly.

I find it difficult to believe that adrenaline was part of the equation once Sombra started talking to Katya. Also, are you defending the fact that she gets a rush out of murdering/injuring and terrorizing people?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

We don't - but sawed-off shotguns and high-powered sniper rifles vs body armor are leaner odds of survival than a light SMG against body armor, wouldn't you say?

Yep. But given that CURRENT body armor can actually deflect your standard SMG rounds reliably, they probably wouldn't have even dropped, let alone been knocked unconscious.

So she's either aiming somewhere unprotected (in which case they're likely dead if they're not screaming or moving), or her weapon is closer to a PDW instead of an SMG...in which case they're likely dead if they're not screaming or moving. And her weapon does seem pretty in line with a PDW from the visuals and the machine pistol designation.

In short, yeah. They're leaner odds than if you used a shotgun. But the odds are still much better than the odds of knocking four guards cleanly unconscious with something as poorly designed for the job as a machine pistol. :smalltongue:

[BRC]

Sombra is Ruthless, she's hardly on the side of the angels. She's working with Talon to further her own agenda

If you watch her backstory video, she uncovers evidence of a wide-reaching global conspiracy, connecting Lumerico, Volskaya, Overwatch, Talon, ect, and sets out to uncover it, not to expose it, but to control it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHHjdKMH7_w
"I'll find out who really runs the world, I'll find out their weaknesses, and how to exploit them, and when I do, I'll be the one pulling their strings".

She's not opposed to a shadowy conspiracy running the world, not if she's the one controlling it.

We have no reason to believe that she didn't kill those guards, and even if by some miracle she didn't, she helped Reaper get inside, and he certainly did.

Consider, she's supposed to be some unstoppable super-hacker, right? And yet she arranged this whole affair so she could deliver her blackmail threat to Katya Volskaya face-to-face.

Consider the following, alternate strategy.

1) Set off the alarm earlier, mission aborts before Reaper starts killing people. End result is the same.
2) Use her Super-Hacking ability to send Katya a blackmail e-mail, or phone call. Don't for a moment pretend that it's easier to break into Katya's office that it would be to get past whatever call screening process she has.
Nobody is dead, new "Friend" made.

Nah, Sombra is ruthless, she wanted to be in the room with Katya, so she could unleash the full barrage of intimidation. If she had to gun down a few Mooks on the way, whatever.


And speaking of the ARG, there's some evidence that she basically invented a bunch of fake information to bring down Gulilermo Porteo. Reading the emails on the Lumerico site, Guillermo seems like a decent enough CEO who is concerned that his employees are not taking enough vacation time. There is one email mentioning a "Juarez Affair" that we have no context for, and another mentioning a deal with Vishkar (Which, yeah, is kind of shady).

Meanwhile, the news post mentioned TONS of revelations that he was bribing officials, using company funds as a personal piggy bank, ect. None of which we saw any evidence of in the emails Blizzard gave us for the ARG.

Especially when her final message implied that the real purpose behind hacking Lumerico was to get some resources she needed to hack Volskaya.

[Aux-Ash]

I don't think of Sombra as particularly good/neutral, but the "commits violence casually as an indicator of her not being very nice" argument does not hold a lot of water when both Tracer and Winston has been shown to do the same thing. Tracer fired her auto-pistols straight at Widowmaker (who, I might add, was not wearing body armour) without any warning or being shot at. Yes, it was to protect Mondatta and Widowmaker is a member of Talon but that just shows us that Tracer is perfectly okay with grievously harm someone for the right reasons (furthermore: she's also, apparently, perfectly willing to throw a powerful bomb in a residental area. What if that had landed in someone's bedroom?!).

Similarily Winston did not warn the Talon agents invading Watchpoint Gibraltar to turn back or he'd attack. He just attacked them. Was he right doing so? Probably, but it certainly looks rather unprovoked. It's not like there was a sign: Warning, Angry uplifted Gorilla inside.

It's perfectly fine to hold Sombra morally accountable for the violence she committed/allowed to happen regardless of her motivation. But if we do then we should hold all the other heroes to the same standard.

---

On another note. I wonder what Talon's agenda really is. Prior to this short their actions have suggested they're political terrorists, going after Overwatch because they're enemies and Mondatta because he's an Omnic pacifist. Even if it hasn't been possible to figure out what their agenda is exactly from those actions, it sort of works together. Robbing a train that carries something does not muddle this image either. Could be for money, could be for their ideals.

But why try to assassinate the chairman of the russian defence contractor? More to the point: the most powerful person in Russia. That's like kicking a hornet's nest.

Presumably they don't have Sombra's blackmail material. If they did why not just destroy her that way? So it doesn't strike me as likely they're doing this because of her deal with the Omnics (which otherwise would have painted a nice picture with the previous actions).

I've read some suggesting that it's to further destabilize the world. Well... to what end? And defence contractors aren't exactly known for promoting peace, it's not in their interest as a business. I mean it's possible... but seems a bit flimsy to me.

I've also read some suggestions that Talon is a tool for the Conspiracy. Sure, that means Katya Voloskaya is not part of/working for the conspiracy (and thus, neither is Zarya). It certainly fits most available evidence thus far. Personally, I think Lumerico and Vishkar are members/allies/assets of the conspiracy and this could be an attempt to take control of Voloskaya I suppose.
Makes it a bit difficult to explain Reaper's presence though, unless he's in on it/really manipulated.

What do you people think?

[BRC]

I don't think of Sombra as particularly good/neutral, but the "commits violence casually as an indicator of her not being very nice" argument does not hold a lot of water when both Tracer and Winston has been shown to do the same thing. Tracer fired her auto-pistols straight at Widowmaker (who, I might add, was not wearing body armour) without any warning or being shot at. Yes, it was to protect Mondatta and Widowmaker is a member of Talon but that just shows us that Tracer is perfectly okay with grievously harm someone for the right reasons (furthermore: she's also, apparently, perfectly willing to throw a powerful bomb in a residental area. What if that had landed in someone's bedroom?!).

Similarily Winston did not warn the Talon agents invading Watchpoint Gibraltar to turn back or he'd attack. He just attacked them. Was he right doing so? Probably, but it certainly looks rather unprovoked. It's not like there was a sign: Warning, Angry uplifted Gorilla inside.

It's perfectly fine to hold Sombra morally accountable for the violence she committed/allowed to happen regardless of her motivation. But if we do then we should hold all the other heroes to the same standard.

---

On another note. I wonder what Talon's agenda really is. Prior to this short their actions have suggested they're political terrorists, going after Overwatch because they're enemies and Mondatta because he's an Omnic pacifist. Even if it hasn't been possible to figure out what their agenda is exactly from those actions, it sort of works together. Robbing a train that carries something does not muddle this image either. Could be for money, could be for their ideals.

But why try to assassinate the chairman of the russian defence contractor? More to the point: the most powerful person in Russia. That's like kicking a hornet's nest.

Presumably they don't have Sombra's blackmail material. If they did why not just destroy her that way? So it doesn't strike me as likely they're doing this because of her deal with the Omnics (which otherwise would have painted a nice picture with the previous actions).

I've read some suggesting that it's to further destabilize the world. Well... to what end? And defence contractors aren't exactly known for promoting peace, it's not in their interest as a business. I mean it's possible... but seems a bit flimsy to me.

I've also read some suggestions that Talon is a tool for the Conspiracy. Sure, that means Katya Voloskaya is not part of/working for the conspiracy (and thus, neither is Zarya). It certainly fits most available evidence thus far. Personally, I think Lumerico and Vishkar are members/allies/assets of the conspiracy and this could be an attempt to take control of Voloskaya I suppose.
Makes it a bit difficult to explain Reaper's presence though, unless he's in on it/really manipulated.

What do you people think?
I can think of several explanations.


Talon seeks global instability, possibly as part of a "Burn down the world and rule the ashes" scheme. Right now human/omnic relations are the most exploitable source of tension. Killing Mondatta is obvious, Mondatta was a powerful voice in favor of peace between humans and omnics.

Killing Katya? Well, this is based on a theory concerning the Omnic "informant" That was giving Katya tech, namely that said "Informant" rather than being part of whatever faction is behind the Omnic Crisis, is benevolent. This mystery omnic wants to end the omnic crisis quickly, since the longer it goes, the worse relations get between humans and omnics. By giving Katya advanced tech, Mystery Omnic was hoping to give Russia the edge it needed to end the war quickly, afterwards Katya would use her status as a National Hero to help re-integrate Omnics into Russian society as best she could, her end of the bargain with Mystery Omnic.

By killing Katya, Talon would cut off Mystery Omnic's powerful ally within Russia, both prolonging the conflict (Since M.O could no longer supply Volskaya with advanced tech), and taking Katya off the table as a voice for peace afterwards.

The problem is, this assumes that Talon knows about Mystery Omnic's deal with Volskaya, and chose to kill her instead of blackmailing her, as Sombra did.



We know Sombra wanted a face-to-face with Katya Volskaya. It's possible that she engineered the whole assassination attempt. Talon is relying on Sombra for intelligence gathering/decryption, so it would be super easy to present them with some evidence that Katya Volskaya was a threat to their plans. We know that Sombra likes hacking people just as much as she likes hacking computers, so it would be in-character for her to figure out whatever button makes Talon send out a hit squad on somebody, and push it in such a way that she ends up on the team sent in, all so that she could get a minute or so alone with Chairwoman Volskaya in a sealed room.



Similar to Theory #1, but without any mention of Mystery Omnic. Talon wants the second omnic crisis to continue, or maybe they would even like to see it succeed and knock out a nation or two. They identified Volskaya as an individual whose death would hurt the war effort, and sent in a kill team.

Problem with this theory is that if they had a general motivation to hurt the war effort, why didn't we see any evidence of them trying to sabotage the factory on the way out? They had plenty of time to plant explosive charges. Instead, the short we saw seemed to show their focus as being totally on assassination. Plan A seemed to be to have Widowmaker take out Katya, then exfiltrate out.



This theory is that Talon's agenda is less about Chaos than it is about Fear. Maybe they have a "Legitimate Face", in the form of some shady, but advanced, security contractor. By assassinating major public figures and keeping global tensions high, they create a market for their Legitimate front. Or, perhaps the "Legitimate Front" is some sort of Authoritarian New World Order style group. By causing a panic, Talon is hoping to get people to willingly submit to their new overlords.


Edit: as for Winston, a Talon strike team showed up, armed for bear. This wasn't some kids on spring break wandering into an old building. I wouldn't say it was an unreasonable assumption that they were there to kill or capture him.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Edit: as for Winston, a Talon strike team showed up, armed for bear. This wasn't some kids on spring break wandering into an old building. I wouldn't say it was an unreasonable assumption that they were there to kill or capture him.

And Tracer definitely knows who and what Widowmaker is. That's not a case of "Huh. I'm here for a good view, and someone else is here also. Weird." It's a case of "Oh look. Widowmaker, trained assassin extraordinaire, finding a vantage point over what we know to be a major political appearance."

[BRC]

And Tracer definitely knows who and what Widowmaker is. That's not a case of "Huh. I'm here for a good view, and someone else is here also. Weird." It's a case of "Oh look. Widowmaker, trained assassin extraordinaire, finding a vantage point over what we know to be a major political appearance."

It's important to remember that Overwatch was primarily a military organization. Mercy is supposedly a pacifist, and Mei was part of the Science division, but everybody else apparently saw combat.

I'm wondering more about Mondatta's security detail. The whole "walking him through the crowd to the car when there is a sniper around" thing aside, Tracer got REALLY CLOSE, armed to the teeth. Did nobody notice the girl with the glowing chest and say "hey, somebody check her out, see if she's carrying guns and bombs or something".

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'm wondering more about Mondatta's security detail. The whole "walking him through the crowd to the car when there is a sniper around" thing aside, Tracer got REALLY CLOSE, armed to the teeth. Did nobody notice the girl with the glowing chest and say "hey, somebody check her out, see if she's carrying guns and bombs or something".

I think it's the superhero effect. Overwatch has a bit of that going on: the heroes are, individually, a match for basically any level of security or defenses, they don't miss save against other heroes, and they sort of have their own rules.

Like...do I really believe that Reaper -- who appears invincible, can teleport, and can turn into mist -- had to rely on Sombra to get to Katya once the alarm went off? No. Not for a moment. But the plot demanded it, so sure. Same with Tracer managing to get so close. Same with Widowmaker managing to make that shot.

It's also why I'm sure Sombra just straight-up killed people: she's a hero, so if she wanted to use non-lethal means (like, say, her disabling abilities or simply martial arts -- she seems agile enough) it would have worked because of the power of plot. Instead we see her using lethal means. That has to be intentional. If it was more in-character for her to simply hack in or bypass the guards non-violently, we'd have seen that, and it would have worked -- so I'm now positive that she's the sort of person who wanted to revel in the face-to-face, and probably use it to sort of lord her victory over Katya and Talon. What we see isn't a "she didn't have any other options." It's shown to us because it's Blizzard's best effort to get us to understand the sort of person she is: otherwise they'd have chosen a different story to tell.

[Landis963]

It's important to remember that Overwatch was primarily a military organization. Mercy is supposedly a pacifist, and Mei was part of the Science division, but everybody else apparently saw combat.

I'm wondering more about Mondatta's security detail. The whole "walking him through the crowd to the car when there is a sniper around" thing aside, Tracer got REALLY CLOSE, armed to the teeth. Did nobody notice the girl with the glowing chest and say "hey, somebody check her out, see if she's carrying guns and bombs or something".

W/r/t Mondatta's security detail, I suspect that Mondatta refused to compromise his principles on a lot of the more stringent measures, choosing instead to trust the people he was trying to reach out to. And if Widowmaker was any less competent an assassin (Seriously, the shot she ended up making was ridiculous), he probably would have made it despite the security holes such trust introduced.

[Jama7301]

Does anyone participate in the PTR's and have they had a go of the new Arcade modes

[Landis963]

Does anyone participate in the PTR's and have they had a go of the new Arcade modes

I don't, but I've seen Stylosa try out mystery duel and 3v3 elimination. Both look pretty fun, albeit very quick to punish mistakes (no health packs + no respawns = get hit once and lose)

No limits is what we currently call "quick play" so that's pretty obvious. I think the rest are recycled brawls.

[SorenKnight]

Half of those could have easily tipped off Talon that she wasn't doing their bidding, while the other half could have simply failed. Stakes too high for errors.

Okay, please explain how the plan she did go was any easier or more likely to succeed. It wasn't like "Break into the what is quite possibly the most secure facility facility on the planet under the nose of two highly trained murderous sociopaths without them noticing a your subtle sabotage" had any better odds of success. Sombra had no way of knowing that Widowmaker wouldn't have fired up her wallhacks and seen her talking calmly to Katya without attacking her. Or Reaper killing his way through the guards fast enough to kill Katya before she reached the elevators. Or any number of other ways the plan could have gone wrong.



But if we're going with that, we have no proof that Reaper kills anyone either. He shoots people, and they fall over. Maybe it's hug bullets. :smalltongue:

Come to think of it how do we know Widowmaker kills anyone? I mean we didn't even see a bullet hole in Mondatta, so he must still be alive! I'm sure he just got tied of the spotlight and faked his death. After all, Widowmaker might be a remorseless criminal with no history of altruism, but that's no reason to believe that she's killed anyone.


I wasn't aware adrenaline was a moral failing honestly.

I wasn't aware that adrenaline made people smug.


You seem to have come to the conclusion that sombra is a good guy and are then bending over backwards to defend that conclusion.

Yes, I have pointed that out as well. Not sure there's much use in it though. The only person who can't see it is Psyren himself, and he won't admit that Sombra's evil until he gets a form signed in triplicate by Jeff Kaplan.
His whole argument amounts to "We can not conclusively prove that she is evil, therefore we have no reason to believe she is evil"


It's perfectly fine to hold Sombra morally accountable for the violence she committed/allowed to happen regardless of her motivation. But if we do then we should hold all the other heroes to the same standard.

We should! I, in fact, already do. The second Tracer breaks into the facility of a legitimate organization that has never harmed her or anyone she knows, and brutally murders their employees with a grin on her face I will hold her in the same moral contempt that I hold Sombra.


Does anyone participate in the PTR's and have they had a go of the new Arcade modes

Yup. I quite enjoy the new stuff.


I think the rest are recycled brawls.

Yeah, and you can't pick which brawl you want. You just hit brawl and get one randomly, probably as a measure to prevent ridiculous wait times.

[Psyren]

Okay, please explain how the plan she did go was any easier or more likely to succeed. It wasn't like "Break into the what is quite possibly the most secure facility facility on the planet under the nose of two highly trained murderous sociopaths without them noticing a your subtle sabotage" had any better odds of success. Sombra had no way of knowing that Widowmaker wouldn't have fired up her wallhacks and seen her talking calmly to Katya without attacking her. Or Reaper killing his way through the guards fast enough to kill Katya before she reached the elevators. Or any number of other ways the plan could have gone wrong.

It's really not that hard to understand. A face to face meeting (a) can't be intercepted, (b) leaves no paper trail, and (c) shows your target that you mean business. "I can get to you even in the heart of your stronghold, and worse, I'm the only one who can stop my 'friends' from reaching you too. Play ball."

Sombra herself says she went to a great deal of trouble to meet this woman in person. What baffles me is that several of you seem to think the idea of merely sending an e-mail didn't occur to a computer expert.



Come to think of it how do we know Widowmaker kills anyone? I mean we didn't even see a bullet hole in Mondatta, so he must still be alive! I'm sure he just got tied of the spotlight and faked his death. After all, Widowmaker might be a remorseless criminal with no history of altruism, but that's no reason to believe that she's killed anyone.

High-powered rifle, light SMG, body armor, yadda yadda covered this already.



I wasn't aware that adrenaline made people smug.

Being smug, or even snarky, is also independent of alignment.



His whole argument amounts to "We can not conclusively prove that she is evil, therefore we have no reason to believe she is evil"

No. My argument is "her actions could fit both Evil and Neutral, depending on the greater good they could have achieved." I am not ruling out that she is evil; I'm simply keeping an open mind. (And even if she is capital-E Evil, she wouldn't be the first evil character in fiction whose presence/actions actually resulted in a preferable/superior outcome.)

[Landis963]

Okay, please explain how the plan she did go was any easier or more likely to succeed. It wasn't like "Break into the what is quite possibly the most secure facility facility on the planet under the nose of two highly trained murderous sociopaths without them noticing a your subtle sabotage" had any better odds of success. Sombra had no way of knowing that Widowmaker wouldn't have fired up her wallhacks and seen her talking calmly to Katya without attacking her. Or Reaper killing his way through the guards fast enough to kill Katya before she reached the elevators. Or any number of other ways the plan could have gone wrong.


In fairness to Psyren's argument, It was probably included in the plan that "Widowmaker turns on her wallhacks as soon as she gets into position" and Sombra probably knew (through hacks/datamining/asking) how long it lasted before it needed to recharge. Also, Sombra made it into Katya's office with literally less than a second to spare, if Reaper wasn't in the office before the blast doors closed, he'd never be. In addition, his teleport is his only means of upward mobility (wraithform is always compliant with gravity, as in game) and it has a couple seconds of lag time before it happens, time Reaper doesn't have with a couple of souped-up mechs breathing down his neck. (Also his teleport has never been shown in a cinematic, for whatever reason)

[Necroticplague]

In fairness to Psyren's argument, It was probably included in the plan that "Widowmaker turns on her wallhacks as soon as she gets into position" and Sombra probably knew (through hacks/datamining/asking) how long it lasted before it needed to recharge. Also, Sombra made it into Katya's office with literally less than a second to spare, if Reaper wasn't in the office before the blast doors closed, he'd never be. In addition, his teleport is his only means of upward mobility (wraithform is always compliant with gravity, as in game) and it has a couple seconds of lag time before it happens, time Reaper doesn't have with a couple of souped-up mechs breathing down his neck. (Also his teleport has never been shown in a cinematic, for whatever reason)

In Old Soldiers (Ana's intro comic), Reaper was shown as being able to use Wraithform to fly. Floats a good 2 stories into the air before dissapearing.

[SorenKnight]

In fairness to Psyren's argument, It was probably included in the plan that "Widowmaker turns on her wallhacks as soon as she gets into position" and Sombra probably knew (through hacks/datamining/asking) how long it lasted before it needed to recharge. Also, Sombra made it into Katya's office with literally less than a second to spare, if Reaper wasn't in the office before the blast doors closed, he'd never be. In addition, his teleport is his only means of upward mobility (wraithform is always compliant with gravity, as in game) and it has a couple seconds of lag time before it happens, time Reaper doesn't have with a couple of souped-up mechs breathing down his neck. (Also his teleport has never been shown in a cinematic, for whatever reason)

You seem to misunderstand my argument. I meant that Reaper might have killed Katya before she got in the elevator, not that he could have caught up later.


It's really not that hard to understand. A face to face meeting (a) can't be intercepted, (b) leaves no paper trail, and (c) shows your target that you mean business. "I can get to you even in the heart of your stronghold, and worse, I'm the only one who can stop my 'friends' from reaching you too. Play ball."

What baffles me is that you seem to think that a face to face meeting doesn't have any disadvantages. For example, killing innocent people. But that didn't deter Sombra, indicating that she doesn't consider their lives to be particularly important. And as an ludicrously skilled hacker, do you really think that Sombra couldn't ensure that her message reached Katya without detection, then deleted itself and hell, even burned out the hard drive of the computer if that was necessary to avoid leaving behind any trace? And hacking through Katya's security, which is some of the best on the planet, without leaving any trace would be more than enough to let her know that Sombra means business.

Not to mention the added benefit that no one would have seen Sombra's face, and that this way, you don't have a bunch of soldiers knowing that Sombra fought her way to Katya, spent time alone with her, and then left without hurting her for some reason. Which is a tad suspicious.


Sombra herself says she went to a great deal of trouble to meet this woman in person. What baffles me is that several of you seem to think the idea of merely sending an e-mail didn't occur to a computer expert.

I'm not saying that she didn't consider it, I'm saying that she decided against it means that she must not have really cared about killing people, because if she did than she would have taken the simple, safe option that spared all their lives.



High-powered rifle, light SMG, body armor, yadda yadda covered this already.

As others have noted, when some suffers the kind of impacts that bullets stopped by body armor would provide they get bruises, but they don't get taken out of the action. When armor piercing rounds, multiple bullets to the same area, or a shot that is simply too close to be effectively stopped penetrate armor however, someone can die quite quickly. So either the Russians solely recruit soldiers with people who faint whenever they are bruised, or those guards are dead.

Its my understanding that SMGs are designed the same way as assault rifles, to deliver multiple bullets to the same area in order to foil body armor heavy enough to block the individual bullets. Most body armor however can't effectively block multiple bullets at point-blank range. (If someone here has actual military or police experience, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.)

Even if you still believe that an SMG can't reliably beat body armor with multiple shots at point-blank range than rewatch the trailer. She disarms one of the guards and shoots them both with his assault rifle. So take what I said before about how SMGs are designed to work against armor, and apply it to a more powerful cartridge.

Those men had bullets in them, and even if they survived the initial impact their wounds were left untreated for the duration of Sombra's conversation, and likely for longer than that, given that they would have to fetch some kind of medic.




Being smug, or even snarky, is also independent of alignment.

Quite true. Being smug about murdering someone however, does imply that you don't really feel bad about it. And the whole adrenaline thing was brought up by you to excuse the smugness.



No. My argument is "her actions could fit both Evil and Neutral, depending on the greater good they could have achieved." I am not ruling out that she is evil; I'm simply keeping an open mind. (And even if she is capital-E Evil, she wouldn't be the first evil character in fiction whose presence/actions actually resulted in a preferable/superior outcome.)

I apologize for misrepresenting your opinions.

[Landis963]

In Old Soldiers (Ana's intro comic), Reaper was shown as being able to use Wraithform to fly. Floats a good 2 stories into the air before dissapearing.

I thought that was his teleport. Admittedly, the cooldown is a little short, given that he'd just used it to get up to Ana's balcony, but maybe it ticked off while Ana was surprised by his face. Or maybe the camera angle is weird and he just wraithformed away normally. Something to ask Michael Chu (the writer) next time he's got an AMA.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I thought that was his teleport. Admittedly, the cooldown is a little short, given that he'd just used it to get up to Ana's balcony, but maybe it ticked off while Ana was surprised by his face. Or maybe the camera angle is weird and he just wraithformed away normally. Something to ask Michael Chu (the writer) next time he's got an AMA.

I imagine the in-lore ability isn't really limited by the cooldown lock of the in-game ability.

[Landis963]

I imagine the in-lore ability isn't really limited by the cooldown lock of the in-game ability.

There is also that to be considered, although tossing aside cooldowns does bring up questions as to why Widowmaker didn't notice Sombra, you know, not killing Katya via her wallhacks.

[BRC]

There is also that to be considered, although tossing aside cooldowns does bring up questions as to why Widowmaker didn't notice Sombra, you know, not killing Katya via her wallhacks.

Katya's office was a safe room, potentially blocking Widowmaker's visor.

[Necroticplague]

I thought that was his teleport. Admittedly, the cooldown is a little short, given that he'd just used it to get up to Ana's balcony, but maybe it ticked off while Ana was surprised by his face. Or maybe the camera angle is weird and he just wraithformed away normally. Something to ask Michael Chu (the writer) next time he's got an AMA.

I figured it was both. Wraithform is what let him float into the air, dissapearing was done via Shadowstep. The combination is because Reaper is a ~60 year old man with the melodramatic sense you'd expect out of someone who enters combat by saying 'death walks among you'.


There is also that to be considered, although tossing aside cooldowns does bring up questions as to why Widowmaker didn't notice Sombra, you know, not killing Katya via her wallhacks.
Easy:In a massive foundry full of working machines and metal, one would expect thermographic vision (which, I believe, is the 'background explanation' for the wallhack) to be effectively non-informative. While the normal freezing of russia might be good conditions for it, once the fighting starts, you'd expect the heat of actived defense systems (mecha, for example) and gunsmoke would obscure the heat signatures of a person or two. Not counting the distinct possibility the 'saferoom' is of a material that blocks IR radiation, and thus is opaque to infragraphic vision. And/or she was busy 'holding the perimeter', in Reaper's words, to look for such. And the entirely distinct possibility that even if she could see both of them, she might not recognize which is which from the indistinct red outlines (and thus, confuse them with simply two incompetent guards having a break while the alarm blares).

[Psyren]

Tried the PTR last night. Naturally there were a lot of Sombras running around. My observations, both from play and confirmed via my subbed channels:


1) Her hack is pretty powerful - It is hitscan, and not only does it disable enemy abilities pre-emptively, it can also stop channeled ultimates in progress. These include Whole Hog, Deadeye, Barrage etc. It does take her a few seconds of holding down the button to make it work but given her mobility, slipperiness and its hitscan you should be able to hack regularly.

2) Continuous but non-channeled ults (like Genji's Dragon Blade, Bastion's Tank or 76's Tactical Visor) can't be stopped in progress, but the rest of the hack does work. So for example, an ulting Genji will keep the sword out, but lose Swift Strike, and an ulting Soldier will keep the Visor up but not be able to drop a biotic field. (An existing field will keep working though.)

3) Hacking healthpacks should definitely not be overlooked. Not only does she make them unusable by the enemy (great for finishing off fleeing targets), but they also respawn health twice as fast. This practically gives her a self-heal behind enemy lines that's even better than Reaper's.

4) Sombra is going to be strong against D.Va; you can hack right through Defense Matrix, and even disable her jets midflight. In addition, Sombra can't stop self-destruct, but she can hack naked D.Va outside of it and keep her from hopping into a new mech until the hack wears off.

5) Sombra is going to be strong against Lucio - your hack keeps him from changing songs or Amping It Up, and your ult completely negates Sound Barrier, stripping the entire thing off their whole team.

6) Zenyatta is going to be strong against her. He has superior range, can drop her quickly with his damage, she can't interrupt his ult (neither with hack nor EMP), hacking him does not remove any orbs he's already thrown out, and cloaking doesn't drop his discord orb (though he does lose the ability to track her until she re-appears.)

7) Mei is going to be strong against her - even a point of damage cancels both her hack and invisibility, so Mei's ice beam is going to be a thorn in her side. In addition, Mei's ice block makes her immune to hacking and EMP alike, and Sombra can't interrupt or interfere with Blizzard either.

8) Sombra's ult strips barriers and shields. This includes blue health, so you can render the likes of Winston, Zarya and Zenyatta pretty squishy. And of course it works like an AoE hack, so sneak in and see above.

9) Her cloak is useless as an escape tool - taking even a point of damage cancels it instantly. You should use her teleporter to escape instead (leave it outside before going in, just like she does in the trailer, or toss it out a window once you're inside) because enemies can't destroy it.

10) Sombra can cap/push objectives while invisible. This is in contrast to, say, the Mass Effect 3 Infiltrator, where cloaking would cause you to drop payloads or not count towards objectives.

11) Her passive is often overlooked but it's extremely useful - wounded enemies (50% life or less) are revealed to her through walls, and unlike Hanzo and Widowmaker she doesn't have to press anything to use this, it's always on.




I'm not saying that she didn't consider it, I'm saying that she decided against it means that she must not have really cared about killing people, because if she did than she would have taken the simple, safe option that spared all their lives.

I'm saying I don't think the "simple, safe option" was either of those things. If she leaves any kind of trail, she's dead, and very likely Katya too. If someone intercepts the communication, same result. If Katya doesn't take her seriously and lets it slip, same result. On and on.

Meeting in person not only ensures that the message is delivered, Sombra herself receives instant confirmation that it has been "read" and comprehended. Now, she can leave future instructions in drop zones without fear that Katya will reveal them purposefully, and that she will take pains to conceal them both from accidental discovery too. Secure communications require both parties to be careful, not just the sender.



...
Those men had bullets in them, and even if they survived the initial impact their wounds were left untreated for the duration of Sombra's conversation, and likely for longer than that, given that they would have to fetch some kind of medic.

Look, you're talking about a universe where people invented healing sniper rifles and biotic fields. I think it's safe to say their medical tech is just a tad more advanced than ours, and Volskaya can almost certainly afford it.



Quite true. Being smug about murdering someone however, does imply that you don't really feel bad about it. And the whole adrenaline thing was brought up by you to excuse the smugness.

I agree that a cavalier attitude about a potentially lethal act does not bode well for her record. But again, alignment is based on the totality of your actions, not one or a handful.



I apologize for misrepresenting your opinions.

No worries! It's a heated subject.

[SorenKnight]

7) Mei is going to be strong against her - even a point of damage cancels both her hack and invisibility, so Mei's ice beam is going to be a thorn in her side. In addition, Mei's ice block makes her immune to hacking and EMP alike, and Sombra can't interrupt or interfere with Blizzard either.

I disagree. Mei's limited spray range will prevent it from revealing Sombra often, while Sombra's hack is one of the easier ways to stop a stalling Mei.



I'm saying I don't think the "simple, safe option" was either of those things. If she leaves any kind of trail, she's dead, and very likely Katya too. If someone intercepts the communication, same result. If Katya doesn't take her seriously and lets it slip, same result. On and on.

It's only really safe or simple compared to what she actually ended up doing. What confuses me is that you think the worlds finest hacker has an easier time killing her way through a secure facility than she would have hacking her way through a secure network.


Meeting in person not only ensures that the message is delivered, Sombra herself receives instant confirmation that it has been "read" and comprehended. Now, she can leave future instructions in drop zones without fear that Katya will reveal them purposefully, and that she will take pains to conceal them both from accidental discovery too. Secure communications require both parties to be careful, not just the sender.

Yes, but it isn't like meeting in person had any smaller number of things that could go wrong. Like Sombra catching a (un)lucky bullet to the head. Every plan has risks and both these plans (infiltrating the facility in person, or hacking Katya's email without anyone knowing or leaving a trace) are near impossible in difficulty. But one plan plays perfectly to her skillset, while the other requires something she do something she has less experience with and risks her life far more directly. The fact that one is more logical than the other implies another, emotional, reason for picking the more dangerous one. And that means that she didn't kill those men because she had too, she killed them because she wanted to.




Look, you're talking about a universe where people invented healing sniper rifles and biotic fields. I think it's safe to say their medical tech is just a tad more advanced than ours, and Volskaya can almost certainly afford it.

I'm not saying that they couldn't fix bullet wounds, I'm saying that they probably bleed to death before a medic arrived, and we've never had any indication that Mercy has shared her Resurrection technology.



I agree that a cavalier attitude about a potentially lethal act does not bode well for her record. But again, alignment is based on the totality of your actions, not one or a handful.

Yes, it is just one piece of evidence. But without any conclusive proof the best we can do is look at the evidence we have. And the evidence we have suggests that Sombra is quite evil.

[Pendulous]

I was having lots of trouble with Sombra as D.va, even with that extra 100 HP. I'd get a hack from her while I'm using my defense matrix, and then she'd just waste away all that hp.

[BRC]

I was having lots of trouble with Sombra as D.va, even with that extra 100 HP. I'd get a hack from her while I'm using my defense matrix, and then she'd just waste away all that hp.

How is her DPS? She has a ton of utility compared to, say, Reaper or S:76, so how does her damage stack up?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

How is her DPS? She has a ton of utility compared to, say, Reaper or S:76, so how does her damage stack up?

Looks like a maximum of 160 per second for 3 seconds at point blank range...which is higher than Tracers, and only 10 below Soldier 76 with a longer firing time. I kind of hope that number is a little off, or the falloff is significantly more.

[The_Jackal]

Looks like a maximum of 160 per second for 3 seconds at point blank range...which is higher than Tracers, and only 10 below Soldier 76 with a longer firing time. I kind of hope that number is a little off, or the falloff is significantly more.

Jeez, that's brokenly insane. That puts her soundly in the Reaper - S76 range of Offense-level DPS. I'm sure the spread is more aggressive than what Soldier gets, but given the close range of Overwatch maps, Sombra's lithe profile, and the abundance of cover, I expect her to be a powerhouse even without her hacky toolkit, to the point where she's going to be nerfed after being live for a month and upending the meta.

[Psyren]

How is her DPS? She has a ton of utility compared to, say, Reaper or S:76, so how does her damage stack up?

The videos I'm watching say 120 dps and she has similar falloff to 76. Her spread is indeed wacky, coming closer to Tracer. On average though, I'd wager she'll get plenty of headshots because she can come at you from unorthodox angles, get in close, and even shut down your own escapes while retaining her own. Not to mention, if she drops you low enough, you can't even hide.

A big advantage of her over Tracer is her clip size - each clip holds 60 rounds, as opposed to Tracer's 40, so she can put out more burst before needing to reload.

[DaedalusMkV]

Looks like a maximum of 160 per second for 3 seconds at point blank range...which is higher than Tracers, and only 10 below Soldier 76 with a longer firing time. I kind of hope that number is a little off, or the falloff is significantly more.

Note that this is done in 8-damage chunks per bullet, which is extremely important. Armour (D.va's in particular) literally halves her damage, to the point that Sombra takes 3 clips to kill a D.va with her Meka's back turned. A Zenyatta or Symmetra with a Torb armour pack on them most llikely cannot be killed in a single clip by Sombra unless she lands quite a few headshots and nearly every bullet she fires, which with her bullet spread requires her to be at point-blank range with perfect aim. Torb overall is an extremely strong counter to Sombra, and can shut her down pretty well between the turret, his good close-in DPS and his armour packs negating ridiculous amounts of her damage. Zarya with a Torb pack is pretty much immune to Sombra's gun as long as she occasionally shields herself and doesn't let Sombra re-hack her.

Falloff starts a little bit closer in than McCree's and drops almost instantly to 4 damage per bullet (around 60 dps, which is actually still somewhat respectable unless you're hitting a target with armour, in which case you might as well be lobbing spitballs) well before you get to the point that 76 even starts to see falloff at all.

From the fairly substantial tests I ran on the PTR, you can treat Sombra's dps as slightly more than Tracer's overall, but less effective in bursts thanks to the way her bullet spread works (it seems to be 100% spread pattern after the first shot, meaning that the only way to use it is to hold that mouse button down until you need to reload or the other guy is dead) and far more effective at moderate to long range. She's not just going to delete people like Reaper or McCree can, but it is very respectable (especially against low- or no-armour Tanks like Zarya, Winston and Roadhog, where you can afford to aim for the head rather than go centre of mass thanks to the huge hitboxes). Considering she has no damaging abilities whatsoever, I don't think her DPS is out of line at all. If anything, my experience with her is that they need to tone down health pack hacking (60 seconds is just way too long in a game as short as Overwatch, especially with Hack only having a 6 second cooldown), reduce the amount of time it takes to hack a player (but not by much) and increase the cooldown on her tele-nade by about 2 seconds. Her DPS is decent, but not nearly enough to call it overpowered or broken.

[ChaosOS]

A bunch of those numbers are wrong. Sombra does 8 damage/round at 20 RPS, with a clip size of 60. That gives her 160 DPS for 3 seconds before needing to reload. Notably, Soldier DPS has been buffed from 17 damage/round at 10 RPS with a clip size of 20 to 20 damage/round, giving him 200 DPS up from 170. Beyond that, Sombra's spread is notably larger than Soldier's and is much less controllable, ballooning up after the first shot and not coming back down until a second later. Comparatively Soldier's spread is tighter even at full auto, takes more distance to fall off, and is very controllable with 3-4 round bursts that quickly recover.

Even ignoring just the gun stats Sombra really feels the lack of burst damage that other offensive characters have, whether we're talking Death blossom and Pulse bomb, or even Helix Rockets and Fan the Hammer. On top of all this there is a noticeable delay between coming out of stealth and being able to shoot, which is accompanied by pretty loud audio queues. Ultimately this means that Sombra's TTK from popping out of stealth is pretty long relative to every other assault hero in the game.

Oh, and Hack has a 12 second cooldown. Stealth CD is 6s after leaving stealth (6s duration, so if you take the full time it's 12s), and Translocator is 6s after teleporting (15s duration, so total of 21s if you never use it)

I will agree though that Hacking health packs is one of the stronger pieces of her kit (Consuming hacked health packs even gives her ult charge, making EMP a relatively spammable ult compared to the now nerfed ult charges on the PTR)

[The_Jackal]

A bunch of those numbers are wrong. Sombra does 8 damage/round at 20 RPS, with a clip size of 60. That gives her 160 DPS for 3 seconds before needing to reload. Notably, Soldier DPS has been buffed from 17 damage/round at 10 RPS with a clip size of 20 to 20 damage/round, giving him 200 DPS up from 170. Beyond that, Sombra's spread is notably larger than Soldier's and is much less controllable, ballooning up after the first shot and not coming back down until a second later. Comparatively Soldier's spread is tighter even at full auto, takes more distance to fall off, and is very controllable with 3-4 round bursts that quickly recover.

Haven't yet played her, so I'm just going on the numbers. Nevertheless, her ability to throw 480 damage downrange before reloading is going to be strong. She can miss with half her magazine, and still kill anyone except Reaper, Mei and the Tanks. Also, these are all PTR numbers, and the devs have asserted that PTR changes aren't going to be as reliably promoted to live, so it could all change. Now the real question is this: Who is a Sombra counter? To me, it seems like straight up offense Heroes will do well, in particular Soldier, Reaper, and McCree. Anyone with just raw shootiness which can't be hacked away.

[Keltest]

Haven't yet played her, so I'm just going on the numbers. Nevertheless, her ability to throw 480 damage downrange before reloading is going to be strong. She can miss with half her magazine, and still kill anyone except Reaper, Mei and the Tanks. Also, these are all PTR numbers, and the devs have asserted that PTR changes aren't going to be as reliably promoted to live, so it could all change. Now the real question is this: Who is a Sombra counter? To me, it seems like straight up offense Heroes will do well, in particular Soldier, Reaper, and McCree. Anyone with just raw shootiness which can't be hacked away.

pretty much. Zarya versus Sombra is going to come down to who initiates on who, a good tracer player can probably burn her down before she can erase the tracer. long range heroes like McCree and 76 just don't give a crap about her at all.

Sombra really benefits from a distraction or four to allow her to really go to town with the hacks and guns to the face.

[ChaosOS]

Haven't yet played her, so I'm just going on the numbers. Nevertheless, her ability to throw 480 damage downrange before reloading is going to be strong. She can miss with half her magazine, and still kill anyone except Reaper, Mei and the Tanks. Also, these are all PTR numbers, and the devs have asserted that PTR changes aren't going to be as reliably promoted to live, so it could all change. Now the real question is this: Who is a Sombra counter? To me, it seems like straight up offense Heroes will do well, in particular Soldier, Reaper, and McCree. Anyone with just raw shootiness which can't be hacked away.

Her counters are characters with decent guns, which pretty much means anyone that's offense or defense. Hack is interruptible just by shooting her, so even if you're playing tracer or Mei (Heroes that are relatively vulnerable to being hacked), outside of her ult you should never get hacked. Her RMB is more for tanks and supports, who have unreliable guns that are all projectile or have range isuses meaning the 1s cast time on Hack is likely to be completed without interruption from another source. In a straight up firefight her kit offers very little compared to the rest of the cast

McCree: He has a better gun with pinpoint accuracy and strong DPS
S76: Better gun, full clip is 400 + 120 from rockets in just over 2 seconds
Tracer: Very vulnerable if she does get hacked, but your spray means that you should easily interrupt her even at max hack range (Which is 25m IIRC). 240 DPS at close range, blowing Sombra out of the water. Oh, and due to her spread if you just spray you have a decent chance of revealing a cloaked Sombra.
Genji: Can't deflect hack, so as soon as Genji starts deflecting Sombra should immediately move to Hack him (2s duration on deflect, 1s cast time on Hack makes that a trade up for Sombra). Regardless, genji should be able to swift strike->RMB blow her up like any other 200 HP hero. Still though I'd actually say Sombra is relatively favored here.
Reaper: Massive clip size, Sombra is more concerned with just evading Reaper though. She can outrange him so if he's caught out in the open the shotgun spread means she can win this fight.
Pharah: Depends on if Sombra gets Hack off. Pharah's height advantage drops Sombra's DPS pretty heavily and 2 rockets are death, but a grounded Pharah can more easily get tele juked by a good Sombra.

Mei: Hack is really strong here if she can land it, but Mei should be able to just out muscle sombra with 250 HP and 75 damage icicles.
Junkrat: Strong Sombra counter. Grenades can randomly hit even a cloaked sombra, and if she drops her translocator somewhere just trap it for a fresh kill on delivery.
Hanzo: Sonic arrow reveals her in cloak, it's the usual "If hanzo can aim he should win"
Widow: Same as Hanzo but visor reveals
Bastion: Spray n Pray takes out cloak. Note: Hack will kick Bastion out of Sentry into Recon, but Bastion should easily be able to out muscle an enemy Sombra in direct combat
Torbjorn: Hacking turrets isn't easy as unless they're already preoccupied they'll turn and fire on Sombra. Oh, and if Sombra bumps into a turret it'll detect her and open fire. One thing to note: EMP will remove all armor packs on anyone hit, makingi t a pretty strong way to break up a Torbjorn nest.

[BRC]

All this confirms my guess.

Sombra is a powerful character when used in conjunction with the rest of the team, but, since she's a stealth character, everybody who uses her is going to try to stealth in alone to solo the enemy team (I'll kill one of them with headshots to break stealth, then I'll hack the other so they're useless and kill them!)

[DaedalusMkV]

Haven't yet played her, so I'm just going on the numbers. Nevertheless, her ability to throw 480 damage downrange before reloading is going to be strong. She can miss with half her magazine, and still kill anyone except Reaper, Mei and the Tanks. Also, these are all PTR numbers, and the devs have asserted that PTR changes aren't going to be as reliably promoted to live, so it could all change. Now the real question is this: Who is a Sombra counter? To me, it seems like straight up offense Heroes will do well, in particular Soldier, Reaper, and McCree. Anyone with just raw shootiness which can't be hacked away.

The thing is, that's true of every Offense hero to a significantly greater degree. 76 can boast exactly the same "miss with half his bullets and still kill any 200 hp character", only he has Helix Rockets for a 120 damage burst, considerably greater effective range, doesn't lose fully half his DPS against any character with armour and a bullet spread that actually lets him land headshots on purpose from farther than 5m or so. McCree does 420 damage from a no-headshot clip with perfect accuracy, meaning skilled players can headshot as often as they can centre their cursor over the other guy's head, and can delete any 200 hp character in less than a second with the stun+fan combo. Genji can still do around 180 damage in a slightly longer than 1 second period if he's right up in your face and pulls everything off just right, and of course has up to ~6000 dps with Reflect (against a six-Bastion team... :smallwink:). Pharah can do 720 damage out of one clip, kills any 200 hp character in two direct hits and doesn't suffer any damage falloff at all. Reaper does up to 280 dps and up to 1120 damage before reloading, with a fairly similar effective range to Sombra's.

Sombra has no burst damage at all, just her sustained dps, which is middle of the pack at best amongst Offense heroes. Her damage is very, very reasonable.

[Psyren]

Can someone who understands the XP / loot box change ELI5?

[Rising Phoenix]

welp...they released sombra into competitive.... time to avoid it like the plague...I was a breath away from plat too. :(

[LeSwordfish]

XP Per Level used, I believe, to be the same after level 100 as at low levels: so going from level 100-101 took as much XP as from 0-1, same for 101-102 as 1-2. This meant you would get a "burst" of crates at every hundredth level.

This is no longer the case: all levels after the initial few have the same XP cost.

[BRC]

XP Per Level used, I believe, to be the same after level 100 as at low levels: so going from level 100-101 took as much XP as from 0-1, same for 101-102 as 1-2. This meant you would get a "burst" of crates at every hundredth level.

This is no longer the case: all levels after the initial few have the same XP cost.

They didn't want a system that encouraged not playing the game so you could use your burst XP during seasonal events.

[AgentPaper]

welp...they released sombra into competitive.... time to avoid it like the plague...I was a breath away from plat too. :(

Or jump in there and main Winston for some easy wins.

[LeSwordfish]

They didn't want a system that encouraged not playing the game so you could use your burst XP during seasonal events.

That makes sense! I thought it was a wierd implementation to the system (why not give a bunch of crates at once for hitting level 100?) but I see why they had it, and why they removed it.

[Psyren]

XP Per Level used, I believe, to be the same after level 100 as at low levels: so going from level 100-101 took as much XP as from 0-1, same for 101-102 as 1-2. This meant you would get a "burst" of crates at every hundredth level.

This is no longer the case: all levels after the initial few have the same XP cost.


They didn't want a system that encouraged not playing the game so you could use your burst XP during seasonal events.

Thank you both, makes sense. Sad I missed out on my 100 lootsplosion though.

[Rising Phoenix]

Or jump in there and main Winston for some easy wins.

Point, I have finally found what amounts to a static group, so hopefully I may get a few games in tonight.

[Necroticplague]

Interesting how torb seems to be a counter to sombra. The turrets long range, instant reaction time, perfect aim, and 360 vision basically provide a good answer to any attempts at being stealthy. Its continuous, perfect fire means it eliminate hacking in a sizable portion of an area. Armor packs cut her damage in half

Side note related to the above: I see one of the loading screen tips that recommends out-ranging torb's turrets, since they have a finite range. However, I've yet to ever see this happening, even on some relatively extreme ranges. Do any of the maps actually have massive enough line-of-sight to a turret spot that this is actually useful?

[Rising Phoenix]

Interesting how torb seems to be a counter to sombra. The turrets long range, instant reaction time, perfect aim, and 360 vision basically provide a good answer to any attempts at being stealthy. Its continuous, perfect fire means it eliminate hacking in a sizable portion of an area. Armor packs cut her damage in half

Side note related to the above: I see one of the loading screen tips that recommends out-ranging torb's turrets, since they have a finite range. However, I've yet to ever see this happening, even on some relatively extreme ranges. Do any of the maps actually have massive enough line-of-sight to a turret spot that this is actually useful?

Not really, maybe on Anubis once or twice. Basically your best bet is for it to be distracted/or you fire behind reins shield...

[Psyren]

Interesting how torb seems to be a counter to sombra. The turrets long range, instant reaction time, perfect aim, and 360 vision basically provide a good answer to any attempts at being stealthy. Its continuous, perfect fire means it eliminate hacking in a sizable portion of an area. Armor packs cut her damage in half

She has lots of answers to turrets. They can't detect her if she enters the area cloaked (unless she touches them), so you can simply slip past the choke they're covering and get to the foe's backline. She can hack a nearby health pack for easy healing and then peek the turret. She can wait until it's shooting an ally, then hack it. And of course there's her EMP.

As a sidenote, Overwatch Mythbusters (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1joQTQFgIE0) has all kinds of interesting quirks with Sombra's abilities, like being able to dodge D.Va and McCree's ultimates even at point blank range, and a way for her to double-jump.



Side note related to the above: I see one of the loading screen tips that recommends out-ranging torb's turrets, since they have a finite range. However, I've yet to ever see this happening, even on some relatively extreme ranges. Do any of the maps actually have massive enough line-of-sight to a turret spot that this is actually useful?

The final/home stretches in Route 66 and Hollywood have pretty long sightlines.

[Necroticplague]

She has lots of answers to turrets. They can't detect her if she enters the area cloaked (unless she touches them), so you can simply slip past the choke they're covering and get to the foe's backline. She can hack a nearby health pack for easy healing and then peek the turret. She can wait until it's shooting an ally, then hack it. And of course there's her EMP.

Maybe I've been using Torb wrong, but 'the backline' is typically where I find the turret is covering, since, if you have it cover a chokepoint, is will mostly just waste bullets firing at tanks who barely notice to fill up enemy support ult. So it's usually not firing unless a flanker gets behind the choke point. Thus, unless she's hilariously patient, her stealth will end up being revealed by the incredibly loud sound of turret fire when she has to de-cloak. While she could poke, her poor range makes this a slow proposition, especially if the turret is placed somewhere with very long sight lines or no medpacks nearby. And while she's busy trying to poke at the turret, she's not hacking the characters that are more of a threat to the enemy. Sounds like a win overall for torb.

And of course 2v1s and ults trump a single character using an ability that coolsdown in less than 10 seconds.

[The_Jackal]

Maybe I've been using Torb wrong, but 'the backline' is typically where I find the turret is covering, since, if you have it cover a chokepoint, is will mostly just waste bullets firing at tanks who barely notice to fill up enemy support ult. So it's usually not firing unless a flanker gets behind the choke point. Thus, unless she's hilariously patient, her stealth will end up being revealed by the incredibly loud sound of turret fire when she has to de-cloak. While she could poke, her poor range makes this a slow proposition, especially if the turret is placed somewhere with very long sight lines or no medpacks nearby. And while she's busy trying to poke at the turret, she's not hacking the characters that are more of a threat to the enemy. Sounds like a win overall for torb.

And of course 2v1s and ults trump a single character using an ability that coolsdown in less than 10 seconds.

IMO, the place to put Torbjorn's turret is out of view of the choke, but in position to immediately start pummeling the people as they come through the choke. So, for, say, Temple, point 1, you want it on the steps to the left (facing out), and then put your tanks on the ground blocking advancement, and let your DPS and supports stand on the platform and bridge.

This positioning forces enemy attackers to breach the choke before they take out the turret, and hopefully turn their backs to the DPS and supports shooting plunging fire at them.

IMO, none of the turrets are dangerous enough to secure a kill by themselves, so you're really relying on them finishing off people your team has dented, or acting as a distraction.

In other news, Sombra is... mediocre. She's got a fun kit, being invisible is cool, but she's not dangerous enough to threaten a one on one encounter. Her strongest ability seems to be denying convenient health packs to flankers and attackers while on defense. She's got a great kit to GET behind the lines, but she's lacking sufficient punch to actually DO anything once she's there. Bottom line, Reaper does a far better job of the 'operate behind enemy lines and assassinate stragglers and respawns' role. If there's some other role for her in most game modes, I'm not seeing it. If she's going to accompany her team, she's outclassed by Tracer or Soldier 76. I suppose she can do something about running down injured flankers, with her passive showing people at half health, but I can't help but think that 9 times out of 10, you'd rather just have more firepower to kill them off in the first place. Also, this may out me as a chauvinist pig, but I don't really like her array of pregger smocks.

I will concede to being totally wrong as to her firepower. Her high weapon spread and rapid falloff means she struggles to one v. one enemies at all but point blank range, at which she's as likely to die as her enemies. She's helpless against Tanks, Reaper and Mei, and struggles to even put supports down reliably.

I want to like her, I've always liked the idea of a Hero who can operate more independently, but I'm not sure there's a niche for her in the current state of the game. Does anyone have any ideas of who she's supposed to counter?

[Velaryon]

They didn't want a system that encouraged not playing the game so you could use your burst XP during seasonal events.

I'm just glad they waited until after the Halloween event to make the change. I needed the extra boxes from my level 200 rollover to get everything I wanted.


In other news, Sombra is... mediocre. She's got a fun kit, being invisible is cool, but she's not dangerous enough to threaten a one on one encounter. Her strongest ability seems to be denying convenient health packs to flankers and attackers while on defense. She's got a great kit to GET behind the lines, but she's lacking sufficient punch to actually DO anything once she's there. Bottom line, Reaper does a far better job of the 'operate behind enemy lines and assassinate stragglers and respawns' role. If there's some other role for her in most game modes, I'm not seeing it. If she's going to accompany her team, she's outclassed by Tracer or Soldier 76. I suppose she can do something about running down injured flankers, with her passive showing people at half health, but I can't help but think that 9 times out of 10, you'd rather just have more firepower to kill them off in the first place. Also, this may out me as a chauvinist pig, but I don't really like her array of pregger smocks.

I will concede to being totally wrong as to her firepower. Her high weapon spread and rapid falloff means she struggles to one v. one enemies at all but point blank range, at which she's as likely to die as her enemies. She's helpless against Tanks, Reaper and Mei, and struggles to even put supports down reliably.

I want to like her, I've always liked the idea of a Hero who can operate more independently, but I'm not sure there's a niche for her in the current state of the game. Does anyone have any ideas of who she's supposed to counter?

I still haven't gotten to play her at all in regular Quick Play, as she's always insta-locked while my screen is still loading, or else my cursor starts halfway across the screen from her and someone else gets their first. I've only been able to play her in No Limits mode, which means I can't really get a feel for how she stacks up against anyone except another Sombra. Maybe in a few weeks when not everyone is playing her constantly, I'll get a chance.

However, based on what I've been told and what experience I've had against enemy Sombras, I don't think she is supposed to 1v1 anybody. I believe her job is to hang off to the side, but not too far from the group, try to remain unnoticed, and screw with the enemy.

As for who she counters... if she can land a hack on Tracer, then Tracer is as good as dead. Genji is probably much the same (though since I don't play Genji, I cannot confirm from personal experience). Her ult makes me think she's supposed to target people like Zarya and Reinhardt, though again I don't have enough experience to tell how that matchup goes if she gets the jump on them.

[Anteros]

Now that I have some experience with Sombra, I have to say that her kit really suffers from a lack of direction. It's like half of her kit is designed to let her find pickoffs and 1v1 engagements...but the other half of her kit is designed to counter enemy flankers.

So she's great at finding 1v1s against the enemy, but not strong enough to actually win most of them....or she's great at countering enemy flankers, but then you're not utilizing the stealth and teleport parts of her kit. I really feel like Blizzard dropped the ball on her design. Pick a direction and run with it.

[Velaryon]

Finally got to try Sombra once in QP. I suck with her, a lot. Didn't kill a single enemy, didn't make good enough use of my teleport grenade, eventually just used my ult out of desperation. I obviously need more practice.

[Chambers]

In my experience with Sombra (both playing as and against) the first priority is the health pack mini-game. Keep those packs hacked and encourage your team to use them. There's quite a few chokepoints and KoTH maps where she can have 2 or 3 health packs in close proximity hacked and it makes a huge difference. I don't use her as a flanker to do 1v1; I find someone else engaged in 1v1 and stealth up to that fight and make it 2v1.

[Anteros]

In my experience with Sombra (both playing as and against) the first priority is the health pack mini-game. Keep those packs hacked and encourage your team to use them. There's quite a few chokepoints and KoTH maps where she can have 2 or 3 health packs in close proximity hacked and it makes a huge difference. I don't use her as a flanker to do 1v1; I find someone else engaged in 1v1 and stealth up to that fight and make it 2v1.

I'm just not sure any part of what you're describing is worth giving her a slot on the team over someone else.

[Rising Phoenix]

I'm just not sure any part of what you're describing is worth giving her a slot on the team over someone else.

I guess her the health packs are equivalent to soldier's biotic field and or meis self heal... But Mei will win 90% of 1v1 scenarios anyway...So just bring the devil...I mean Mei.

Edit: I guess Sombra may be worth it if your other team mate baits and you stealth nearby and hack the health packs... ambushing them in the process.

A smart opponent though won't go into that fight without back up though once they know that a sombre is loose.

[Aux-Ash]

Now that I have some experience with Sombra, I have to say that her kit really suffers from a lack of direction. It's like half of her kit is designed to let her find pickoffs and 1v1 engagements...but the other half of her kit is designed to counter enemy flankers.

So she's great at finding 1v1s against the enemy, but not strong enough to actually win most of them....or she's great at countering enemy flankers, but then you're not utilizing the stealth and teleport parts of her kit. I really feel like Blizzard dropped the ball on her design. Pick a direction and run with it.

I haven't played Sombra much outside of the Mystery Duel so take my comments with a pinch of salt. That said, I don't think there's anything in Sombra's kit that suggest she'd be good in either of those roles. Good 1v1 heroes are usually characterized by spike damage, cc abilities and/or high survivability. Sombra has none of those.

McCree has his flashbang and his high pinpoint damage. Mei freezes you and smiles as she places an icicle in your face, and should the table turn on her she can just try to wait it out. Tracer is nigh impossible to pin down, has a bomb and can dish out twice the damage Sombra can. Genji simply dances around his enemy, shredding them as he does so with their own shots.

Sombra... can hide, retreat, hack if she's not spotted first and spot heavily damaged people through walls. Everything about her kit suggest that she cannot win a fair fight. In the duel, Sombra fights are long and drawn out games of cat and mice.

I see nothing that suggest she'd be good at the roles you suggested above. Her kit suggest she's supposed to ensure that any fight remain unfair. To take away advantages of position and to finish people off as they retreat. To turn 1v1 into 2v1. She's the strongest when the enemy is occupied with the rest of your team.

Sombra is an opportunist and a scavenger, not a duelist.

After all, as Sombra herself puts it: "Where's the fun in playing fair?"

[The_Jackal]

As for who she counters... if she can land a hack on Tracer, then Tracer is as good as dead. Genji is probably much the same (though since I don't play Genji, I cannot confirm from personal experience). Her ult makes me think she's supposed to target people like Zarya and Reinhardt, though again I don't have enough experience to tell how that matchup goes if she gets the jump on them.

Yes, being hacked is crippling to characters who rely on mobility to survive, but the fact that she needs to channel for 1.2 seconds means that she puts herself at a significant disadvantage when she doesn't have the drop on her opponent. To be fair, she's supposed to have the tools that make getting the drop on your enemy easier, but my experience both giving and receiving of her ambushes is that if the victim of the ambush has good reaction time, then more likely than not, Sombra dies before she can win or retreat.

I've tried her some more, and I've gotten a better feel for her kit, so I'll update my thoughts. 1) She's really only useful on capture point maps. So much of her kit is dependent on the indirect advantage of resource denial in the form of medkits, and payload maps and king of the hill both drive concentration of the team into a ball that negates most of her kit. 2) She's not a half-bad flanker/counter-flanker. She can set up her transponder in safety, control a pack or two, stealth into engage, savage an opponent, teleport back, then use her passive to hunt down her target when they're hunting around for a non-hacked health pack. 3) Because she's so dependent on her abilities for actually setting up her attacks, she's got nothing in the tank for when surprises happen. So awareness is utterly crucial, and in a strong team which can keep your enemy on their back foot, she can shine, but if you're on a team with a few spuds, you're going to be spending a lot of time running back from your spawn point.

[Velaryon]

So I finally got to try Sombra once against other characters, and (predictably) I'm utterly terrible with her. I struggle to get any kills at all with her because of the spread on her gun, even though I play lots of Soldier 76 and Tracer, the characters she's most comparable to in terms of primary weapon. I'm not really good with the rest of her kit either, but I figure that at least should come with practice. When it comes to her teleport grenade, either it times out and I end up not using it, or I get hacked by the enemy Sombra and can't retreat.

Speaking of which, is there any kind of visual or audio cue that you're in the process of being hacked? I haven't noticed one but I haven't been able to play much recently so I could have missed something.

[Anteros]

I haven't played Sombra much outside of the Mystery Duel so take my comments with a pinch of salt. That said, I don't think there's anything in Sombra's kit that suggest she'd be good in either of those roles. Good 1v1 heroes are usually characterized by spike damage, cc abilities and/or high survivability. Sombra has none of those.

McCree has his flashbang and his high pinpoint damage. Mei freezes you and smiles as she places an icicle in your face, and should the table turn on her she can just try to wait it out. Tracer is nigh impossible to pin down, has a bomb and can dish out twice the damage Sombra can. Genji simply dances around his enemy, shredding them as he does so with their own shots.

Sombra... can hide, retreat, hack if she's not spotted first and spot heavily damaged people through walls. Everything about her kit suggest that she cannot win a fair fight. In the duel, Sombra fights are long and drawn out games of cat and mice.

I see nothing that suggest she'd be good at the roles you suggested above. Her kit suggest she's supposed to ensure that any fight remain unfair. To take away advantages of position and to finish people off as they retreat. To turn 1v1 into 2v1. She's the strongest when the enemy is occupied with the rest of your team.

Sombra is an opportunist and a scavenger, not a duelist.

After all, as Sombra herself puts it: "Where's the fun in playing fair?"

I don't think anything I said implied you should be looking for honor duels against the enemy. I don't know where you even got that. Of course you should use her full kit to your advantage. You wouldn't really think that needs to be said. :smallconfused:

I just don't think the ability to pick off stragglers or to turn the rare 1v1 into a 2v1 is worth a character slot. I did watch some pro players use her, and they definitely get more mileage out of her than I am. I'm not sure it's a viable pick on their level either though.

[NeoVid]

Well, people being wrong on the internet led to the greatest gameplay video I've seen yet. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcA3cCQfe3s)

Despite the pure awesome I was watching, seeing that made me feel a little bad, since it made me realize I'm not a bad Lucio, I'm a completely incompetent Lucio.

[The_Jackal]

Speaking of which, is there any kind of visual or audio cue that you're in the process of being hacked? I haven't noticed one but I haven't been able to play much recently so I could have missed something.

Yes, there's a sound cue, it's a 1.2 second channel, and the visual cue is three red beams shooting out at you. Your experiences are entirely in line with my own: Sombra's smg is too inaccurate and too weak to put the fear of death into anyone. I totally understand why this is, from a design standpoint. If her gun was anywhere near as strong as Soldier (200 DPS, tight spread) or Tracer (480 DPS, vast spread), her gameplay would be 'Decloak, Hose down enemy support, enjoy 5 on 6 teamfight'.

Sombra isn't a flanker. She's a sneaky hybrid of flanker and support. Hacking provides area denial, preventing your enemies from using health kits and letting her make the most of her 'opportunist' passive. She's not without strengths, and not all of them are obvious: 1) She's very mobile. With invisibility and translocate, there's not many places she can't reach. 2) Her footsteps are QUIET. This is really profoundly useful if you're focused and aware. Genji, Tracer, and Reaper can all get in the back line too, but they have very loud tells warning an alert player of incoming danger. 3) Her hack ability on health packs can be really powerful. Hers is a playstyle which really rewards map awareness and planning. You can't just dive in and expect your cooldowns to save you when you get in trouble. Your translocate beacon needs to be out in a safe spot BEFORE you engage, and IMO, your best use of her camo is to get INTO position, because it's basically terrible to disengage with. Any stray bullet will void your cloak, after which you're dead meat. She CAN be strong, but she requires a solid team to leverage her strengths. If your teammates can't bring pressure, nobody's going to be breaking off the front lines in search of a health pack. I fully expect a professional team to make good use of her kit, but doing so will require a solid plan and a lot of coordination.

[Anteros]

Well, people being wrong on the internet led to the greatest gameplay video I've seen yet. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcA3cCQfe3s)

Despite the pure awesome I was watching, seeing that made me feel a little bad, since it made me realize I'm not a bad Lucio, I'm a completely incompetent Lucio.

You probably shouldn't feel bad from comparing yourself to someone else's highlights. Of course he looks great in them. They're highlights. You could probably make a similar video if you took all your highlights.

[The_Jackal]

Well, people being wrong on the internet led to the greatest gameplay video I've seen yet. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcA3cCQfe3s)

Despite the pure awesome I was watching, seeing that made me feel a little bad, since it made me realize I'm not a bad Lucio, I'm a completely incompetent Lucio.

I'm pretty sure if you hyper focus on getting good at Lucio, you'll get reasonably proficient, and being a guy who's put a lot of practice in what is objectively the most valuable healer in the entire Overwatch metagame is going to help you climb the ranks. While I'm not a subscriber to the 10,000 hours meme, practice will make you get better.

[Aux-Ash]

I don't think anything I said implied you should be looking for honor duels against the enemy. I don't know where you even got that. Of course you should use her full kit to your advantage. You wouldn't really think that needs to be said. :smallconfused:

I just don't think the ability to pick off stragglers or to turn the rare 1v1 into a 2v1 is worth a character slot. I did watch some pro players use her, and they definitely get more mileage out of her than I am. I'm not sure it's a viable pick on their level either though.

Fair enough, my apologies if I seemed to misrepresent your position.

I've been theorizing myself if Sombra would make a decent defence breaker. Someone you use to sabotage a choke hold. But I'm not sure how effective she'd be.

[Admiral Squish]

Okay, so, I know this isn't strictly game-related, but it is tangentially related and I can think of no better place to talk about it. I'm also aware this is probably a pretty niche thing to be hyped about, but again, I can't think of anywhere else to talk about it.
So, Zylpai is officially a thing. It's been like three days and I'm still kinda fangirling over it. They're just so freakin' adorable.

To those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about, Zylbrad is an austrailian youtuber who plays Overwatch, and is also, in my opinion, hilarious. Shenpai is a german youtuber/twitch streamer who plays Overwatch. Relatively small channels, ~600k subs between them, IIRC. The two met through the game (and a couple mutual friends). The story goes, somebody in a twitch chat said Zylbrad x Shenpai, and the idea became a meme, a joke between them, but it sorta made them start to think about each other in a different light, and then it became a real ship, and they started talking and hanging out online outside overwatch, and then Shenpai decided she was going to go to a con in Austrailia... Then Shenpai promised that if she hit 100k subs, she'd ask Zylbrad out.
Well, she hit 100k subs, and there was a stream, and it was freakin' adorable. It took her like twenty-thirty minutes to stop furiously blushing and work up the nerve to actually ask. He wasn't faring much better, but he accepted. So now it's official, and still adorable.

[SorenKnight]

First concrete information on what the Symmetra reworks will look like. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elN-QGyToxM)

[Psyren]

You probably shouldn't feel bad from comparing yourself to someone else's highlights. Of course he looks great in them. They're highlights. You could probably make a similar video if you took all your highlights.

While you can indeed cherry-pick just the good stuff to make highlights, the one metric he can't fake is his solo queue rating, which does indicate that he is truly great rather than merely looking great.


First concrete information on what the Symmetra reworks will look like. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elN-QGyToxM)

To summarize:

- She's getting a second Ultimate - the teleporter is sticking around, but she can also toggle to a shield generator. Both ults will share the same meter and you choose which one you want to use at any given time.

- The Shield Generator will periodically generate shields (like her E used to, but stronger) for allies. It ignores line of sight, so you can hide it behind a wall (like that "pocket area" on Anubis point 2) and the enemy will have to go find it.

- Her Portal is getting increased health, and both the Portal and the SG are also getting some of their health as shields. This means that you can't just chip away at the Portal over time to kill it, your team / flankers need to make a strong push to locate it and shut it down.

- Her E ability is scrapped and replaced with "Photon Barrier." It's going to be a small barrier (like a mini-Reinhardt shield) that moves forward on a track away from Symmetra, allowing her to stay behind the team but signal them all to push in.

- She can now store all 6 turrets at a time, letting you set up her entire microwave nest without needing to wait for cooldowns. Also, the cooldowns on turrets have been decreased (10s down from 12s) to help you reposition your nest more easily / frequently.

- Her primary beam/tether now has a slightly longer range.



Also, Oasis (the new control map) will be added to the PTR early 2017 after Symmetra.

[SorenKnight]

Also, Oasis (the new control map) will be added to the PTR early 2017 after Symmetra.

Are you sure about this? Because to me he seemed to imply that new Symmetra would come to the PTR very soon, in order to have an extended testing period before her live release in early 2017.

[Psyren]

Are you sure about this? Because to me he seemed to imply that new Symmetra would come to the PTR very soon, in order to have an extended testing period before her live release in early 2017.

I think you parsed that differently than what I intended. What I said was that Oasis would be added early 2017, sometime after the new Symmetra is added (likely in 2016 - he didn't give a specific timeframe.) Not that Symmetra would be added in early 2017, followed by Oasis.

[SorenKnight]

New Symmetra is on the PTR now, which is a lot sooner than I expected.

[Psyren]

New Symmetra is on the PTR now, which is a lot sooner than I expected.

EEEEEK! So she is!

*downloads*

[Pendulous]

Well, people being wrong on the internet led to the greatest gameplay video I've seen yet. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcA3cCQfe3s)

Despite the pure awesome I was watching, seeing that made me feel a little bad, since it made me realize I'm not a bad Lucio, I'm a completely incompetent Lucio.

I can't even jump off a wall I'm riding. This guy is switching his songs three times a second.

New Sym ult is really good. It has a huge range and goes through walls, so you can hide it like a teleporter. Pretty much constantly keeps people at 75 bonus armor.

I still think it will take too much time to set up turrets for them to feel useful. I already have enough trouble getting Torb's turret to level 2 any time after the game starts.

I'm still not a fan of her actual offensive tech, so I probably won't play her, but I will definitely appreciate all those armor bonuses. Stack that with what is even more Torb armor packs now too.

[Balmas]

Sooooo... I just got off the PTR, and holy hell Symmetra is good now.

To wit:
--------
When the Devs said it would be a small, ovoid shield, what they mean is that it's only slightly smaller than Reinhardt's shield. Add maybe a half-foot in every direction to Rein's shield, and then shave down the corners to an oval shape. It moves at Symmetra's walking pace, and disappears on hitting any solid map objects. It appears to have health, in that if it travels long enough and gets hit hard enough, it develops cracks. In practice, though, the map is probably going to kill your shield long before the enemy will. The shield has a ten second cooldown. It feels like it stops about the same things as a Rein shield--Symmetra can shoot her balls through it, Winston can beat you up through it, etc. Mei pretty much ignores it, because if she's close enough to freeze you, then by the time you conjure up the shield she'll have run past it.

--------
Having six of the mini-sentries in your pool is an awesome bonus. It's mostly useful when you're moving your gear to a new location, as it means you can effectively fall back and already have a death room ready to go by the time the enemy team arrives.

--------
The real star, though, is the shield generator. Finally, Symmetra has something worthwhile to put down on the last point. It grants 75 shields to everyone on your team within a range of the shield generator. However, the range of the generator is absolutely IMMENSE. On the testing range, I put it into the little alcove where the testing robots wander in and out of; I had to go to the weight room near the spawn before it would shut off. At least 40 meters, and probably closer to 50 or 60.

Oh, and did I mention it stacks? Yeah, it's not much difference in Quickplay, with a hero limit, but in the arcade where I was playing, an all-Symmetra team was able to reliably hold down the last point for a good five minutes, because once you have those shield generators down, that HP starts stacking like crazy.

It's no fun to play against, I have to say. Imagine 500 HP Symmetras just running around with their tiny hitboxes, backed up by mini-sentries, and being incredibly hard to pin down. Oh, and if you have an ultimate that's blocked by a Rein shield, like Soldier, D.Va, and Roadhog, they can frustrate those too.

[Psyren]

Note that Blizzard is having a huge Black Friday sale for all their products. If any of you had friends wanting to get into Overwatch, now is definitely the time.


It moves at Symmetra's walking pace, and disappears on hitting any solid map objects.

Slight correction - it only disappears if the center piece (the part that generates the shield) hits something, because then that is what breaks, taking the shield with it. If you aim it right, you can have the barrier stand in place by wedging it in a small gap e.g. between the payload and a chokepoint, so long as the center of the barrier doesn't touch either.



Having six of the mini-sentries in your pool is an awesome bonus. It's mostly useful when you're moving your gear to a new location, as it means you can effectively fall back and already have a death room ready to go by the time the enemy team arrives.

Yes, this is a huge quality-of-life change. Going from the arch on King's Row or Anubis to scattering your toys on top of the point in seconds and back again feels phenomenal.



It's no fun to play against, I have to say. Imagine 500 HP Symmetras just running around with their tiny hitboxes, backed up by mini-sentries, and being incredibly hard to pin down. Oh, and if you have an ultimate that's blocked by a Rein shield, like Soldier, D.Va, and Roadhog, they can frustrate those too.

Indeed - and even with hero limits in place the generator can be annoying to punch through. I foresee Sombra getting a boost in the meta after these changes - she'll not only erase any amount of barriers you put up with this thing, she even has a chance to disable the generator itself for a while, and she can slip through a microwave room as long as she doesn't touch any of the orbs. (But if you put one on the ground and she trips over it, lights out!)

[Guancyto]

The best thing I found on PTR to break the Symmetra stacks is a whole barrel of monkeys aggressively jumping in and never giving them the chance to keep microwave rooms or have more than one shield generator at a time.

I think both Winston and Sombra will be very happy with these changes.

(Shield generator could definitely use a range nerf if it's going to ignore line of sight, though.)

[Jama7301]

I just started diving into the new Arcade modes, and I'm already a fan of the Random 1v1 duel. I haven't had a more pleasant experience in an online game since I played Final Fantasy XI.

New Symmetra seems bonkers. I'm interested to see how long she stays in PTR for tweaking.

[Psyren]

The best thing I found on PTR to break the Symmetra stacks is a whole barrel of monkeys aggressively jumping in and never giving them the chance to keep microwave rooms or have more than one shield generator at a time.

I think both Winston and Sombra will be very happy with these changes.

(Shield generator could definitely use a range nerf if it's going to ignore line of sight, though.)

I used Zarya - you have a splash weapon with an arc to clear out microwave rooms safely, and her bubble can very quickly hit max charge from the turrets. Her ult is also great for grabbing a bunch of Symmetras that are trying to dance around the attackers and wiping them out en masse, though of course you need to then quickly find the teleporter once you've punched a hole.

[Balmas]

The best thing I found on PTR to break the Symmetra stacks is a whole barrel of monkeys aggressively jumping in and never giving them the chance to keep microwave rooms or have more than one shield generator at a time.

I think both Winston and Sombra will be very happy with these changes.

(Shield generator could definitely use a range nerf if it's going to ignore line of sight, though.)

Here's the thing, though; for every shield generator set up, Winston has to spend an additional 1.25 seconds burning down the Symmetra. (75 additional shields divided by Winston's 60 DPS). Even one shield generator means that the balance starts to tip towards Symmetra.

275HP/60DPS = 4.58333 seconds to kill Symmetra, and 91 rounds out of the hundred in Winston's tesla cannon.

By comparison, in those same 4.58333 seconds, Symmetra will have done 400 damage if she starts at no damage ramp-up, and 549 if she's at max damage ramp up.

I'd have to run the numbers again for 2v2 to account for Winston's cleave damage, but it only gets worse when you start seeing things like Torbjorn armor or additional shield generators.


I used Zarya - you have a splash weapon with an arc to clear out microwave rooms safely, and her bubble can very quickly hit max charge from the turrets. Her ult is also great for grabbing a bunch of Symmetras that are trying to dance around the attackers and wiping them out en masse, though of course you need to then quickly find the teleporter once you've punched a hole.

Plus, symmetra turrets are pretty much free charge if you can time them right.

[Psyren]

I'd have to run the numbers again for 2v2 to account for Winston's cleave damage, but it only gets worse when you start seeing things like Torbjorn armor or additional shield generators.

Not to mention her turrets - if they are behind Winston or off to his side, he'll have a hard time continuing to dps her and take them out as well, and they only add to the incoming damage.


Plus, symmetra turrets are pretty much free charge if you can time them right.

Yep, I said that - she's definitely a Symmetra counter.

Q: Can Sombra's EMP go through walls too?

[Balmas]

Not to mention her turrets - if they are behind Winston or off to his side, he'll have a hard time continuing to dps her and take them out as well, and they only add to the incoming damage.

Good point, though I think the entire point of playing Winston is that you can just sweep your field of view in a circle and pretty much get rid of the entire turret nest.


Yep, I said that - she's definitely a Symmetra counter.

Q: Can Sombra's EMP go through walls too?

Whoops, missed that. Sorry.

To the best of my knowledge, no. Line of sight with a range of something like 10-15 meters.

So, additional counters to New Symmetra:

Pharah does a fantastic job of clearing areas of turrets, though she falls short if the opposing team's Symmetra just places her turrets far apart enough that the splash can't get more than two turrets at a time. Where she shines, though, is that she can just stay out of range of the turrets and Symmetra's little laser leash, and rain justice from above. Of course, all it takes is a McCree, Soldier, or Widowmaker, and that's much less of a counter.

Reaper is actually kind of an indirect counter to Symmetra. It's not because of his mobility or his limited ability take out multiple turrets at once, but because he's got enough damage to burst down the enemy team in the range that Symmetra needs to be to deal her damage.

[LooseCannoneer]

I'd just like to say that I called the change to Symmetra's E ability.

Another Symmetra tip for anyone looking to get into Symmetra: When fighting Mei, spend a few seconds charging your beam on the ice wall. It's a few seconds to get the maximum beam without taking fire, then slaughter the enemy team.

[Psyren]

I'd just like to say that I called the change to Symmetra's E ability.

Another Symmetra tip for anyone looking to get into Symmetra: When fighting Mei, spend a few seconds charging your beam on the ice wall. It's a few seconds to get the maximum beam without taking fire, then slaughter the enemy team.

Outside of FFA though this is unlikely as both Mei and Symmetra are usually Defense picks, and so will usually be on the same team.

[Anteros]

Offensive Mei isn't very rare at all though. :smallconfused:

[LooseCannoneer]

Outside of FFA though this is unlikely as both Mei and Symmetra are usually Defense picks, and so will usually be on the same team.

Offensive Mei has happened, though. And isn't knowing that Symmetra has a fully charged laser and running better than getting your face melted?

[Psyren]

Offensive Mei isn't very rare at all though. :smallconfused:

Really? Because I'm only seeing her on one list (both QP and competitive):

https://www.overbuff.com/roles/offense
https://www.overbuff.com/roles/defense

I'd say that indicates some amount of rarity.


Offensive Mei has happened, though. And isn't knowing that Symmetra has a fully charged laser and running better than getting your face melted?

I'm sure it "has happened," just like offensive Bastion (http://kotaku.com/overwatch-player-uses-bastion-cheese-to-win-pro-match-1787987224) has happened. But again, I was speaking to what was likely, not what was possible.

[Anteros]

Are you trolling? People don't only play offense heroes on offense and defense heroes on defense. Blizzard's classifications mean nothing.

[Velaryon]

Well, people being wrong on the internet led to the greatest gameplay video I've seen yet. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcA3cCQfe3s)

Despite the pure awesome I was watching, seeing that made me feel a little bad, since it made me realize I'm not a bad Lucio, I'm a completely incompetent Lucio.

Hilariously, when this was posted on Kotaku (http://www.kotaku.com.au/2016/11/console-overwatch-player-hilariously-proves-pc-elitists-wrong/), people are STILL trying to come up with excuses for why he's supposedly nothing special as a Lucio player. For what it's worth though, the Youtube comment quoted in the article was sarcastic, which isn't obvious when pulled out of context.



- The Shield Generator will periodically generate shields (like her E used to, but stronger) for allies. It ignores line of sight, so you can hide it behind a wall (like that "pocket area" on Anubis point 2) and the enemy will have to go find it.

Since I'm a console player and we don't have a PTR :smallfrown:, can Symmetra place her shield generator inside the spawn room? If so, is the range bie enough that it can still reach people on the point? I'm asking about Anubis specifically, but I suppose the question applies to other stages as well.
If the range is big enough, she could put the shield generator where it's simply impossible for the other team to destroy it. I know she can place her teleporter in there (it's how I got the trophy for 20 teleports in one match), so this seems like an obvious trick to try.

[chainer1216]

Since I'm a console player and we don't have a PTR :smallfrown:, can Symmetra place her shield generator inside the spawn room? If so, is the range bie enough that it can still reach people on the point? I'm asking about Anubis specifically, but I suppose the question applies to other stages as well.
If the range is big enough, she could put the shield generator where it's simply impossible for the other team to destroy it. I know she can place her teleporter in there (it's how I got the trophy for 20 teleports in one match), so this seems like an obvious trick to try.

She cant, and the shields disappear after being out of range for about 5 seconds, but the range is pretty significant.

[Rising Phoenix]

Offensive Mei isn't very rare at all though. :smallconfused:

Mei works great on offense and defence. She's the devil after all.

I've been playing a lot of soldier (basically trying to round out my roster outside of Ana and Lucio) and am getting decentish at him. I have about 5 hours on Zarya but I don't think I am playing her right to get charge. I thought about playing D.Va as well, but I seem to get melted regardless of what I do. Any suggestions for tanks?

[Balmas]

Mei works great on offense and defence. She's the devil after all.

I've been playing a lot of soldier (basically trying to round out my roster outside of Ana and Lucio) and am getting decentish at him. I have about 5 hours on Zarya but I don't think I am playing her right to get charge. I thought about playing D.Va as well, but I seem to get melted regardless of what I do. Any suggestions for tanks?

Depends on the hero, obviously, but if I had to choose one thing: Positioning. Learn where you need to be, when to go in, when to withdraw, when to commit tactical suicide, etc. Play with your team, if that makes sense; every hero needs to be able to work with the team, but tanks especially need to draw aggro from the team and need to have their support to take out the opposition.

For Zarya, what you need to learn is when to apply your shields. The cooldown on your barriers is relatively long--you might only get one or two per teamfight, so you need to put it on the person who gets the most benefit / is the most important person to preserve / is under the most fire. Winston is generally a good shield target.

[Rising Phoenix]

Depends on the hero, obviously, but if I had to choose one thing: Positioning. Learn where you need to be, when to go in, when to withdraw, when to commit tactical suicide, etc. Play with your team, if that makes sense; every hero needs to be able to work with the team, but tanks especially need to draw aggro from the team and need to have their support to take out the opposition.

For Zarya, what you need to learn is when to apply your shields. The cooldown on your barriers is relatively long--you might only get one or two per teamfight, so you need to put it on the person who gets the most benefit / is the most important person to preserve / is under the most fire. Winston is generally a good shield target.

And that I guess is the main problem I am getting. In quickplay you rarely get teams where one plays cohesively, let alone get a support that actually supports. Will have to practise more with my six man I guess.

Thanks for the tips.

[Pendulous]

Mei works great on offense and defence. She's the devil after all.

I've been playing a lot of soldier (basically trying to round out my roster outside of Ana and Lucio) and am getting decentish at him. I have about 5 hours on Zarya but I don't think I am playing her right to get charge. I thought about playing D.Va as well, but I seem to get melted regardless of what I do. Any suggestions for tanks?

Roadhog is nice and self-sufficient with his heal. Gotta just learn how to take pot-shots, hang around a corner, and stay alive. Use your hook on targets you know you can wreck close up. Learn how to judge the distance of his mid-range shot. I can usually get at least silver damage with him, if not top. He's good for playing quick play solo for all those things.

[Rising Phoenix]

Roadhog is nice and self-sufficient with his heal. Gotta just learn how to take pot-shots, hang around a corner, and stay alive. Use your hook on targets you know you can wreck close up. Learn how to judge the distance of his mid-range shot. I can usually get at least silver damage with him, if not top. He's good for playing quick play solo for all those things.

Also an excellent suggestion. I played Rein a bit earlier and he just melts now.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Also an excellent suggestion. I played Rein a bit earlier and he just melts now.

Every tank in the game feels like they melt if your positioning is off or you're exposed to too much fire without support. Rein can be frighteningly resilient when played properly, but you'll find even Roadhog disintegrating if you're not where you should be.

[Dienekes]

Every tank in the game feels like they melt if your positioning is off or you're exposed to too much fire without support. Rein can be frighteningly resilient when played properly, but you'll find even Roadhog disintegrating if you're not where you should be.

You're right. That said. Rein's position was always right in front of everyone with a big neon Hit Me sign. Which is a bit forgiving as far as positioning goes. Doing that is less survivable now unless your allies and you are on the same page. Which, at least on my level of play, is a bit of a pipe dream that comes about once when the stars align and the blood moon rises.

So his new positioning is just going to take some getting used to, is all.

[Chambers]

I've been playing a lot of soldier (basically trying to round out my roster outside of Ana and Lucio) and am getting decentish at him. I have about 5 hours on Zarya but I don't think I am playing her right to get charge. I thought about playing D.Va as well, but I seem to get melted regardless of what I do. Any suggestions for tanks?

When playing Zarya, I try and wait until her shield HP is almost depleted before using her personal bubble. The bubble then acts like extra HP and can give you a few seconds to run away to a safe spot to let your Shield HP regenerate without taking more 'real' damage . In general I find it best to wait until after the enemy is already attacking you to pop your personal bubble. If you pop it too early the enemy can simply wait 2 seconds and then attack, but if you can catch them mid attack you'll get some charge off your bubble before they (if they) stop attacking your bubble.

[Rising Phoenix]

Roadhog is nice and self-sufficient with his heal. Gotta just learn how to take pot-shots, hang around a corner, and stay alive. Use your hook on targets you know you can wreck close up. Learn how to judge the distance of his mid-range shot. I can usually get at least silver damage with him, if not top. He's good for playing quick play solo for all those things.

Thanks for this suggestion. For some reason I have excellent hook accuracy with hog 50-70%...I just need to learn how to one shot hooked squishies.

[Balmas]

Thanks for this suggestion. For some reason I have excellent hook accuracy with hog 50-70%...I just need to learn how to one shot hooked squishies.

Well, the key is to kill them before they can do any movement tools that will let them get away. Hook-headshot-melee, that's the key. If the headshot doesn't get them, the melee might.

[LooseCannoneer]

Thanks for this suggestion. For some reason I have excellent hook accuracy with hog 50-70%...I just need to learn how to one shot hooked squishies.

Hold down left click as they're being pulled. It'll immediately shoot when they're right in front of you.

[Keltest]

You're right. That said. Rein's position was always right in front of everyone with a big neon Hit Me sign. Which is a bit forgiving as far as positioning goes. Doing that is less survivable now unless your allies and you are on the same page. Which, at least on my level of play, is a bit of a pipe dream that comes about once when the stars align and the blood moon rises.

So his new positioning is just going to take some getting used to, is all.

Rein's effectiveness as cover is really dependent on whether your team has people able to return fire. A McCree who doesn't need to worry about being shot by an enemy McCree or somebody is a very dangerous and very happy McCree, and most importantly he forces the enemy team to do something besides just unload on Rein until the shield breaks. A reaper on the other hand isn't going to do much more than sympathize with the Rein as he gets shot to death.

[Pendulous]

Thanks for this suggestion. For some reason I have excellent hook accuracy with hog 50-70%...I just need to learn how to one shot hooked squishies.

My main problem is shots going over or somehow around them when I pull em in. I try aiming down a little to make sure to hit smaller targets.

[Velaryon]

Thanks for this suggestion. For some reason I have excellent hook accuracy with hog 50-70%...I just need to learn how to one shot hooked squishies.

Though it's not really relevant to Roadhog vs. squishies, if you find yourself playing him a lot you'll run into another Roadhog at some point. Based on my experience, never be the one to hook the enemy Roadhog first unless you just saw him use his hook. If you hook him and his hook isn't on cooldown, he's going to hook you right back and you'll end up losing the fight.

Same goes for D.Va vs. D.Va - whoever puts up their defense matrix first is likely going to lose. I imagine the same goes for a lot of other character matchups.

[Geno9999]

Rein's effectiveness as cover is really dependent on whether your team has people able to return fire. A McCree who doesn't need to worry about being shot by an enemy McCree or somebody is a very dangerous and very happy McCree, and most importantly he forces the enemy team to do something besides just unload on Rein until the shield breaks. A reaper on the other hand isn't going to do much more than sympathize with the Rein as he gets shot to death.

Other good heroes that work well with Reinhardt off the top of my head are Solder 76 (similar reasons as McCree, with the added benefit of dropping a biotic field whenever the two of you need to hide behind cover), Junkrat (Artillery fire go!), and Bastion (Rein + Bastion on Attack Payload = Killer Hovertank. Alternatively, Rein + Bastion on Defense = Attack Team's Nightmare)


Same goes for D.Va vs. D.Va - whoever puts up their defense matrix first is likely going to lose. I imagine the same goes for a lot of other character matchups.

How I've been winning D.Va 1v1s is to Charge at them with Defense Matrix up. D.Va Mech's guns is essentually an Automatic Shotgun, so they 1: have wide spread, 2: have significant damage dropoff. Combine that with an enemy D.Va's armor and you have a lot of health you need to chew through. By charging into them with Defense Matrix, you'll nullify their damage while getting into ideal face blasting range.

[Anteros]

How I've been winning D.Va 1v1s is to Charge at them with Defense Matrix up. D.Va Mech's guns is essentually an Automatic Shotgun, so they 1: have wide spread, 2: have significant damage dropoff. Combine that with an enemy D.Va's armor and you have a lot of health you need to chew through. By charging into them with Defense Matrix, you'll nullify their damage while getting into ideal face blasting range.

:smallconfused:

At best this just puts you right next to them on even footing...except your cooldowns are blown and theirs are not...

Assuming the opponent doesn't derp, the best case scenario here is that you both shoot each other and the mechs die at the same time, except you're out of position since you charged in. Worst case scenario for the other guy, he just uses his cooldowns to disengage if he starts to lose the engagement and you can't follow since yours are blown.

[Velaryon]

:smallconfused:

At best this just puts you right next to them on even footing...except your cooldowns are blown and theirs are not...

Assuming the opponent doesn't derp, the best case scenario here is that you both shoot each other and the mechs die at the same time, except you're out of position since you charged in. Worst case scenario for the other guy, he just uses his cooldowns to disengage if he starts to lose the engagement and you can't follow since yours are blown.

I see where he's coming from on this, and if properly executed it can work. If you can actually slam into them with your boost, you start the exchange with a healthier mech than they do. Defense Matrix has a trivial cooldown as long as you don't use up the whole thing getting into the fight. Once you get in close, if they put up Defense Matrix first you've already won. The time spent switching between firing and using their matrix is when you get the insurmountable advantage, assuming you're not close enough to just keep damaging them even while they try to shield. And your booster cools down quickly enough that you're likely to have it back by the time you need it if you have to chase them down - I've almost never seen a D.Va boost away immediately without trying to engage for a couple seconds first, and that's all you need.

That said, we've been talking in a vacuum so far. If she has any allies near then you are probably doomed if you try to engage her. But then that's Overwatch 101, attacking with a numbers disadvantage will almost always get you killed.

[LeSwordfish]

Overall, I find 1v1 matchups of two of the same classes miserable, so often relying on unfunny grindy play, with no space for tactical thinking. I'm entirely mystified why Blizzard made it a gamemode.

[Anteros]

I see where he's coming from on this, and if properly executed it can work. If you can actually slam into them with your boost, you start the exchange with a healthier mech than they do. Defense Matrix has a trivial cooldown as long as you don't use up the whole thing getting into the fight. Once you get in close, if they put up Defense Matrix first you've already won. The time spent switching between firing and using their matrix is when you get the insurmountable advantage, assuming you're not close enough to just keep damaging them even while they try to shield. And your booster cools down quickly enough that you're likely to have it back by the time you need it if you have to chase them down - I've almost never seen a D.Va boost away immediately without trying to engage for a couple seconds first, and that's all you need.

That said, we've been talking in a vacuum so far. If she has any allies near then you are probably doomed if you try to engage her. But then that's Overwatch 101, attacking with a numbers disadvantage will almost always get you killed.

Ok, so let's say that we're in a hypothetical 1v1, you slam into me and drop your matrix...I thought the switchover time was insurmountable? I don't shoot you during this time because...?

So yes, you bump me, but you actually start out with less life because I shot you when you dropped your matrix. I have no reason to ever use mine at all except if things go sour, and then I can just matrix and boost away, bumping you in the process and dealing the bump damage back as well (although probably not the end of bump melee).

You're putting yourself into a no-win situation if no teammates are around and the opponent plays it properly. Of course it's Overwatch so teammates are always around anyway, and we all screw up constantly, so I'm sure it can work in the chaos of a real match.


Overall, I find 1v1 matchups of two of the same classes miserable, so often relying on unfunny grindy play, with no space for tactical thinking. I'm entirely mystified why Blizzard made it a gamemode.

My experience with this mode is that whoever sees the other person first wins every single engagement. It's not fun at all. Maybe if they made the arena for it better.

[ChaosOS]

There's a lot of gameplay to getting the drop on your opponent, primarily via hearing footsteps. The rest of it is about knowing the tricks of the matchup (IE whoever hooks first loses in Roadhog v Roadhog).

Regarding D.Va mirror: All 3 times I've played this matchup I've won, in the same way: I ended up ejected from my mech first, but then finish off their mech with my blaster and then outduel them in zero suit form (One time I got the kill with Call Mech as they rounded the corner chasing me)

[The_Jackal]

Overall, I find 1v1 matchups of two of the same classes miserable, so often relying on unfunny grindy play, with no space for tactical thinking. I'm entirely mystified why Blizzard made it a gamemode.

I agree totally, but I also understand why they put it in: It's ultra-low effort content, and provides an outlet for douchebag tryhards to teabag each other in public.


There's a lot of gameplay to getting the drop on your opponent, primarily via hearing footsteps. The rest of it is about knowing the tricks of the matchup (IE whoever hooks first loses in Roadhog v Roadhog).

Two players inching up on each other while crouching doesn't strike me as riveting gameplay, and as useful as being skilled with a hero's kit is certainly a strong determinant of your likelihood of victory, core FPS twitch skills are far more important, as you yourself imply with your D.va example: The game is reduced to 'who's better and aiming' in almost every case. Sure, sometimes a Hanzo duel will be determined by dumb luck, and heroes with high mobility might attack from some unexpected angle, but the Mei duel is going to be a pretty turgid affair with lots of cornerdodging and icicle spam. It's a dumb game-mode, with all the teamplay, ult-management and nuance driven right out. But, as I said: Low effort.

[Rising Phoenix]

Welp did my placements. 2046 Sr, three matches later I am at 2014... So the losses don't sting as much anymore.

Still very frustrating seeing Mcree, genji and hanzo mains not being able to deal with D.Va... Why the frick are you firing into her defense matrix buddy? If you don't fire she will have to drop it... Or switch to Mei, Winston (and eventually symetra).

[The_Jackal]

Still very frustrating seeing Mcree, genji and hanzo mains not being able to deal with D.Va... Why the frick are you firing into her defense matrix buddy? If you don't fire she will have to drop it... Or switch to Mei, Winston (and eventually symetra).

The correct response to D.va's defense matrix is to fan out and fire at her from multiple directions, but I see no reason to stop firing. Let's put it this way: McCree can bring D.va from 600 to 0 in 4 seconds, with no crits, and her hitbox is HUGE. The sooner your run her matrix to zero, the sooner she'll be dry and your team can gun her down. The level of ult charge she gains from absorbing shots isn't so great that you need to try to 'resource starve' her. Sure, if you've got a better shot at someone not covered by her Matrix, take it, but that implies a certain amount of derp on the side of the opponent.

[Admiral Squish]

...I don't know why, but I thought 'Sombra' meant something to do with sleep, until somebody said 'sombrero' and I realized it meant 'shadow'. So... she just goes by shadow? That's almost as edgy as 'Reaper'...

[Psyren]

...I don't know why, but I thought 'Sombra' meant something to do with sleep, until somebody said 'sombrero' and I realized it meant 'shadow'. So... she just goes by shadow? That's almost as edgy as 'Reaper'...

Is it any more ridiculous than "Doomfist", "Junkrat" or "Mercy?" It's a codename, meant to be pithy and memorable for the heat of battle or other time-sensitive situations.

[NeoVid]

How I've been winning D.Va 1v1s is to Charge at them with Defense Matrix up. D.Va Mech's guns is essentually an Automatic Shotgun, so they 1: have wide spread, 2: have significant damage dropoff. Combine that with an enemy D.Va's armor and you have a lot of health you need to chew through. By charging into them with Defense Matrix, you'll nullify their damage while getting into ideal face blasting range.

One important thing I learned about using DVa's boost offensively is that when you're using it for the damage, always melee as you ram into them to tack on a bit more pain. The melee also cancels your boost, letting you stop right where you need to be. I've lost count of the number of times I've used this to chase down enemy healers. And meleeing can make a big difference in the duels that are normally just grinding away at your opponent's armor, like DVa and Winston.

[Rising Phoenix]

The correct response to D.va's defense matrix is to fan out and fire at her from multiple directions, but I see no reason to stop firing. Let's put it this way: McCree can bring D.va from 600 to 0 in 4 seconds, with no crits, and her hitbox is HUGE. The sooner your run her matrix to zero, the sooner she'll be dry and your team can gun her down. The level of ult charge she gains from absorbing shots isn't so great that you need to try to 'resource starve' her. Sure, if you've got a better shot at someone not covered by her Matrix, take it, but that implies a certain amount of derp on the side of the opponent.

This is true, however the teams I was with refused to flank her and kept firing into the matrix while the enemies dps mowed into their hp.

[Neftren]

Does anyone know what the deal is with Koreans playing on the North American server, especially in competitive matches?

I'm not mad or anything, mostly curious.

[The_Jackal]

Does anyone know what the deal is with Koreans playing on the North American server, especially in competitive matches?

I'm not mad or anything, mostly curious.

Mostly I think it's a small community of students and immigrants who are more comfortable using their native language, and Blizzards titles are just incredibly popular in South Korea, so they're an outlier in their representation. Plus someone with a native language which uses a Roman or Cyrillic alphabet will probably make a name that will be readable with the default character set. I even see players with Korean handles at my middling MMR, so these can't be players trying to find easy games in the NA circuit to get top 500.

Minimum latency from here to South Korea is in the 150 millisecond range, so the odds of getting good performance from there to Anaheim is fairly remote.

[Neftren]

Mostly I think it's a small community of students and immigrants who are more comfortable using their native language, and Blizzards titles are just incredibly popular in South Korea, so they're an outlier in their representation. Plus someone with a native language which uses a Roman or Cyrillic alphabet will probably make a name that will be readable with the default character set. I even see players with Korean handles at my middling MMR, so these can't be players trying to find easy games in the NA circuit to get top 500.

Minimum latency from here to South Korea is in the 150 millisecond range, so the odds of getting good performance from there to Anaheim is fairly remote.

I'm pretty sure they're playing from Korea though. None of them speak English (some even go so far as to type into chat "no spk eng") and the timing is suspect. They only start showing up en masse after around 8pm Pacific Time, which would be the early afternoon in South Korea.

[Keltest]

I'm pretty sure they're playing from Korea though. None of them speak English (some even go so far as to type into chat "no spk eng") and the timing is suspect. They only start showing up en masse after around 8pm Pacific Time, which would be the early afternoon in South Korea.

At least where I live, that's when the Korean students tend to be more active, for whatever reason. I live in a college town, so we have a fairly large community of immigrant students. its quite possible that they have those hours to maintain contact with their friends and family back home.

[Velaryon]

Ok, so let's say that we're in a hypothetical 1v1, you slam into me and drop your matrix...I thought the switchover time was insurmountable? I don't shoot you during this time because...?

So yes, you bump me, but you actually start out with less life because I shot you when you dropped your matrix. I have no reason to ever use mine at all except if things go sour, and then I can just matrix and boost away, bumping you in the process and dealing the bump damage back as well (although probably not the end of bump melee).

You're putting yourself into a no-win situation if no teammates are around and the opponent plays it properly. Of course it's Overwatch so teammates are always around anyway, and we all screw up constantly, so I'm sure it can work in the chaos of a real match.

If I don't stop right in front of you, we both have to turn around first which means you don't necessarily have the first shot.

If I don't hit you from the front, you probably didn't see me and didn't have a chance to shoot. Better still, I probably didn't have to use my defense matrix at all.

Even if I did stop right in front of you, I might have angled down from a ledge up above or something, and might still catch you off guard, thus giving me a slight advantage before you can react.

Coming straight in head on where you can see me coming from a mile away? Yeah, that's probably not gonna work unless you're already weak and/or fighting someone else. We're getting into desperation territory there.

When you stop firing to put up your matrix, yeah, you're creating an insurmountable disadvantage because the other D.Va doesn't have to stop firing, so they can just keep shooting until you run out of matrix and then get in another couple hits before you can get back to firing. Or if you break and run first, they get a shot at you before you're out of range, then chase you down again. It may not be a sure thing, but being the first to put up your defense matrix in a head-on D.Va vs. D.Va battle is like hooking the other Roadhog first as Roadhog. Usually it's gonna backfire.

[The_Jackal]

So here's a surprise: Apparently Hanzo is growing into being my second most successful Hero (https://www.overbuff.com/players/pc/Ozryk-11320). I got to start playing him in Junkenstein's Revenge, where he was great fun dealing with waves of Zomnics, and I decided I enjoyed that so much that I wanted to try playing him in quick play. He's really underrated, imo. Yes, his accuracy is on the low side, but his hits, when they hit, are very hard-hitting, and don't attenuate, so you can really help your team by firing into a brawl, especially near a chokepoint. His sonic arrow is surprisingly helpful, and available much more often than Widowmaker's ultimate (50% uptime!). I really like his combination of reach and peripheral awareness. I like Widow stylistically, but having to scope in really cuts down on your sense of the battlefield and most points on the field aren't really conducive to long sight-lines. Plus being that far back from your team makes you really vulnerable to flankers. Hanzo can play closer to his team, and has scatter arrow to mess up the odd flanker who gets in his face.

[Velaryon]

Hanzo's not a bad character by any means. I think he does have a bit of a bad reputation, but that has more to do with the fact that he attracts a lot of bad players who pick him regardless of whether he's a good choice for the situation. Also, the fact that he can miss by what feels like five feet and still get a headshot makes people more than a little salty sometimes. :smalltongue:

So what do you all think of the winter update? To be honest, I really don't care for Mei's snowball thing - it's nowhere near as good as Junkenstein's Revenge or Lucioball IMO. I like the holiday'd up version of King's Row though, and I'm thrilled to finally have the Symmetra rework on consoles.

[Pendulous]

The snowball thing is really stupid.

Mei skin is ok, but the snowman ice block is the best part. D.va victory pose is cool. I like how Junkrat and Roadhog are chillin in beach chairs shirtless in their sprays.

That's...about it.

[mythmonster2]

Symmetra rework is great; any of the changes (maybe not the photon barrier) would have been good by themselves, but combined they breathe new life into her and make her not a troll pick on Attack. For the Winter update: most of the stuff seems pretty neat. I'm terrible at the snowball game, just can't seem to get the arc right. Most skins are decent (Zarya continues suffering, though), and I love the new highlight intros for Widow and Symmetra.

[Rising Phoenix]

symetra is perhaps TOO good now. Shield Generator is insane, and it's nearly impossible to kill it. Sombra may now be able to shine.

[UmbralHero]

I have been hearing a ton of frustration from other Supports (like Zar) who are getting outclassed by Symmetra. Thoughts?

[Keltest]

I have been hearing a ton of frustration from other Supports (like Zar) who are getting outclassed by Symmetra. Thoughts?

Do... you mean Zen? because Zarya is definitely not a support.

[Velaryon]

I have been hearing a ton of frustration from other Supports (like Zar) who are getting outclassed by Symmetra. Thoughts?

Symmetra still can't heal, so she doesn't really overlap with other supports. I still think she belongs in the defense category. On the other hand, Symmetra plus Torb can practically turn the entire team into mini-tanks now.

[Rising Phoenix]

Symmetra still can't heal, so she doesn't really overlap with other supports. I still think she belongs in the defense category. On the other hand, Symmetra plus Torb can practically turn the entire team into mini-tanks now.

This. If you run symetra you should also run two healers.

[LooseCannoneer]

As a massive Symmetra player, I'm really happy about the rework. Probably the best thing was the 6 turret cap, so now there's actually an incentive to use turrets as a means to kill, not to distract and force enemies to turn around.

[Velaryon]

Also, you can actually set back up and move your turrets around now as long as you're not in the thick of things, whereas it was much harder before only being able to carry 3 and having longer refresh time on them. I still haven't mastered the use of her mobile shield yet, but that will come with time. Symmetra is definitely in a great place now.

----

Now that we've had Sombra for a little while, how do you guys feel she fits in? I'm terrible with her and have pretty much resigned her to the small pile of characters I just can't play well (along with Zarya, all three snipers, and to a lesser extent McCree). However, I've encountered some who can give me trouble, and one of my friends has gotten pretty decent with her. But on the GameFAQs forum, everyone is saying she's bad and calling for buffs. Where do the Playgrounders fall on this?

[The_Jackal]

Now that we've had Sombra for a little while, how do you guys feel she fits in? I'm terrible with her and have pretty much resigned her to the small pile of characters I just can't play well (along with Zarya, all three snipers, and to a lesser extent McCree). However, I've encountered some who can give me trouble, and one of my friends has gotten pretty decent with her. But on the GameFAQs forum, everyone is saying she's bad and calling for buffs. Where do the Playgrounders fall on this?

She's not bad, she's just inobviously good. First of all, you've got to be aware of her strengths. She's a control point hero, so she shines on King of the Hill and Objective Maps. Why? Because her hacking of health packs can be so powerful in denying resources to the enemy team's flankers. Second, you've got to get used to the tempo of her kit. Hack a health kit, place your beacon, stealth into position and dump your ammo on the enemy, then translocate out before you get killed, then set up to repeat. Third, you can't just play her like a Tracer or Reaper. She's not an ordinary flanker. She's a scavenger, a true harasser. She won't solo down many heroes, but she's great for chasing down heroes who are looking for a pack. Fourth, know who to hack, and when. Genji and Tracer are great targets, as is D.va. Finally, her ult is very strong as an initiator, this makes her really weak solo, but actually pretty strong with some coordination. Finally, STAY BUSY. This is actually the biggest foul most bad Sombra's suffer from: Spending too much time just running around in the enemy backfield without really doing anything. Sombra's gun damage isn't really that bad. Sure it compares unfavorably to stalwarts like Solder, Tracer and Reaper, but there's not a teammate in the world would turn down another 100 DPS. So stay near the action and look for opportunities to support your teammates.

A good Sombra can really confound the enemy, nearly as evasive as Genji and nearly as bursty as Tracer. I don't know if she's going to be a competitive meta mainstay like Lucio, but that's more likely because of how much competition there is for offensive slots there is in the 2 tank/2 support paradigm which seems to have shaped up.

[Guancyto]

I have encountered exactly two Sombras who were worth a player slot.

And each of those times, damn, was she a pain in the bum. She seems to require the same sort of expansive strategic awareness that a support usually needs, plus the aiming and movement of an offensive character (no hiding behind tanks for you, Sombra!), plus a flanker's ability to operate independently of their team.

The same skills that make for an excellent Soldier 76 or Reaper make for a pretty thoroughly mediocre Sombra. If I had to guess, I'd say that some people will git gud with her and be pretty terrifying, most will forget she exists. She's not really a clear counter to any one hero, so the number of generalists who say "I need to switch to counter, it's Sombra time" will be minimal. Statistically she'll probably wind up in the same place old Symmetra was - rarely picked, but highly successful when she is present.

[Geno9999]

...Second, you've got to get used to the tempo of her kit. Hack a health kit, place your beacon, stealth into position and dump your ammo on the enemy, then translocate out before you get killed, then set up to repeat...

One video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b24EDYpyAN8) I found suggests a slight modification to that tempo: Stealth and THEN throw beacon. What you end up is 1: more time you can use before you need to translocate, 2: you can effectively halve your translocator cooldown since you're not waiting until you have it completely cooled down before you stealth (remember, you basically have to wait a second anyway from when you hit the stealth ability key till you are fully invisible anyway, much like in TF2)

[Admiral Squish]

So... Thoughts on the new Tracer comic?

[LeSwordfish]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cjf1dAJUYAAlrZo.jpg

[Tesla_pasta]

So... Thoughts on the new Tracer comic?

*fanfic intensifies*

[mythmonster2]

Comic over here (http://comic.playoverwatch.com/en-us/tracer-reflections), but there's also this really neat animated/sound version (http://content.madefire.com/s-cb940f3d62a84f968c05338787ff2196/index.html#). Nice to see Blizzard making the face of Overwatch the LGBT character they mentioned. I'm also super interested in Widowmaker and Reaper's cameos. Some people have put forth theories that that may have been Gabriel's old family, before he died, and that Widowmaker's brainwashing either wasn't complete or is starting to wear off (she also references Gerard in a few voice lines in-game) It also looks possible that Genji and Mercy are pen-pals or something. Hanzo is also interesting: he got a haircut and a piercing, which is the most we've learned about him since Dragons. He's mentioned being in Numbani and seems to know about Junkrat's treasure, so I really wanna know what the heck he's been up to.

[Pendulous]

So... Thoughts on the new Tracer comic?

Some common questions that were confirmed:

Tracer only needs her chronal accelerator nearby for it to function.
Yes, Widowmaker has feelings.
All those kids are Torby's kids.

[ChaosOS]

Just had the best moment in my Overwatch career. Playing Mei's Snowball fight, it's 0-0 (first round). Wandering around cryo chambers side and watching the kill feed light up, I'm last man standing against six. Hear someone coming up the stairs, kill them. Snow pile right next to me, reload, someone turns the corner to find me I kill them. Get two more kills, have ult up, then ult to double kill the last two that were coming up to me. 1v6 no problemo (We then went on to 3-0 their team)

[Psyren]

Yay Gaycer! Pretty ballsy of them to have her come out, when she's the "brand recognition character" plastered all over their marketing materials. Kudos to Blizzard.

As for the Winter stuff - I'd love to participate, but with the Diablo season ending in 9 days, it's really hard to justify playing anything else until I get my Stash tab. (I'm on the last bloody chapter!)

[The Glyphstone]

The ending was nice too. Felt so bad for Winston at first.

Sombra and McCree in the same bar was probably a coincidence, but I was interested by Reaper and Widowmaker. More of Amélie buried inside than we thought? And who is Reaper stalking? Did Gabriel have a family not yet mentioned in the lore?

Torbjorn dressed as Santa and hanging out with Reinhardt (or vice versa, I suppose, since that's Torbjorn's family) is interesting, but if Reinhardt+Brigitte go anywhere for the holidays, Torbjorn's place makes sense.

No sign of Mei, Zarya, or D.Va.

[Keltest]

The ending was nice too. Felt so bad for Winston at first.

Sombra and McCree in the same bar was probably a coincidence, but I was interested by Reaper and Widowmaker. More of Amélie buried inside than we thought? And who is Reaper stalking? Did Gabriel have a family not yet mentioned in the lore?

Torbjorn dressed as Santa and hanging out with Reinhardt (or vice versa, I suppose, since that's Torbjorn's family) is interesting, but if Reinhardt+Brigitte go anywhere for the holidays, Torbjorn's place makes sense.

No sign of Mei, Zarya, or D.Va.

Werent Mei and Zarya on the screen in the beginning briefly?

[Admiral Squish]

No sign of Mei, Zarya, or D.Va.
First page, first panel, on the screens.

[The Glyphstone]

Oh yeah, I missed them there. Doesn't give any indication what they're doing for the holidays, but at least they didn't get left out entirely.

"Engaging Party Mode." It's like GlaDOS, but without the homicide.

[Landis963]

Oh yeah, I missed them there. Doesn't give any indication what they're doing for the holidays, but at least they didn't get left out entirely.

Also Symmetra and Bastion got cameos; the former on the cover of a magazine in Tracer's apartment, the latter in a newspaper article on the floor of Torbjorn's home.

I think Lucio is the only hero left out, and his global concert tour is apparently coming to King's Row for New Year's.

[The Glyphstone]

True, I didn't recognize them at all, the pictures were too small and grainy. Pity we didn't get to see Bastion and Ganymede relaxing in a snowy forest grove somewhere.

Also, did anyone else just want to scold Tracer for leaving her shopping this late? You might be able to time travel, girl, but that's still super irresponsible.

[Landis963]

True, I didn't recognize them at all, the pictures were too small and grainy. Pity we didn't get to see Bastion and Ganymede relaxing in a snowy forest grove somewhere.

Also, did anyone else just want to scold Tracer for leaving her shopping this late? You might be able to time travel, girl, but that's still super irresponsible.

She was clearly looking for a specific item to give to Winston, it was probably just bad luck that no one had it in stock (it was also bad luck that her girlfriend snapped it up right away, but that's not Lena's fault). Besides, knowing Tracer, she probably filled up the rest of the holiday season with enough activity to make your head spin. (Including, because this is post-recall, some superhero patrolling and such)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

She was clearly looking for a specific item to give to Winston, it was probably just bad luck that no one had it in stock (it was also bad luck that her girlfriend snapped it up right away, but that's not Lena's fault).

I didn't get that, personally. I thought she was trying to buy it for her girlfriend, didn't know what she had been given (I thought that was an "oh, no, that was for me"), and it ended up being what she had wanted to get her girlfriend in the first place. After all, she had no idea what was in that box (you'll notice the family is holding it in the first panel we see them in), so she can't know what's in it, and thus can't know it's what she wanted to give whoever she was buying a gift for, so saying "oh, that's for Winston" doesn't make sense. It's clearly something she had wanted to get her girlfriend.

Plus Winston isn't known for his scarf-wearing, and I imagine if they were getting Winston a present they'd have been in communication about that, since there are no other presents around to confuse it for. That, and Tracer doesn't seem annoyed or disappointed.

[Admiral Squish]

It looks like Mei is showing up as a 'talking head' expert on climate discussing the winter storm hitting England.
Zarya, meanwhile, appears to be showing up in combat footage, presumably shot relatively recently if it's being reported on the news.

Also, I thought it was pretty clear Lena was looking for that scarf for her GF, hence her being all apologetic when she goes home 'empty-handed'.

[Avilan the Grey]

I wish there was a way to try this game without having to pay €40 - €60 (depending on sales) for it since I am not that much into multiplayer.

[Landis963]

I wish there was a way to try this game without having to pay €40 - €60 (depending on sales) for it since I am not that much into multiplayer.

It's currently just under 30 euros, and will remain so until January 3. It's up to you whether what all you've heard justifies the purchase (although there really needs to be some demo for it, esp. given the price of entry).

[Avilan the Grey]

It's currently just under 30 euros, and will remain so until January 3. It's up to you whether what all you've heard justifies the purchase (although there really needs to be some demo for it, esp. given the price of entry).

On PC it's 39,90 atm. But good to know the sale is on past xmas. Might get some gift money...

[Pendulous]

The ending was nice too. Felt so bad for Winston at first.

Sombra and McCree in the same bar was probably a coincidence, but I was interested by Reaper and Widowmaker. More of Amélie buried inside than we thought? And who is Reaper stalking? Did Gabriel have a family not yet mentioned in the lore?

Torbjorn dressed as Santa and hanging out with Reinhardt (or vice versa, I suppose, since that's Torbjorn's family) is interesting, but if Reinhardt+Brigitte go anywhere for the holidays, Torbjorn's place makes sense.

No sign of Mei, Zarya, or D.Va.

Mei should have been with Winston. It doesn't make any sense she isn't. At the very least, yes, the rest of the cast should have been featured. We better a see a full-length fully animated cinematic with D.va Lucio and Mei in the future.

Nobody knows who Sombra is, so yes, coincidence. Sombra handling her alcohol better is odd though. I like the fact that there's a potential for casual interactions between her and other heroes because nobody knows who she is, and if she knows who they are, she probably doesn't give a crap.

Still waiting for Brigitte hero after Doomfist.

[NeoVid]

There's only one thing that Genji's letter to Mercy could be about.

http://i.imgur.com/sdFD6Xu.jpg

Dammit, Genji, she's on the other side of the map and Zen is right there...


I wish there was a way to try this game without having to pay €40 - €60 (depending on sales) for it since I am not that much into multiplayer.

There's certain to be another free weekend one of these days. Amazing as this game is, I wouldn't have gotten it without trying it first.

[boomwolf]

Might NOT be a coincidence either, sombra could have set it up due to her own reasons. after all, she probably knows mcree, even talon grunts can recognize him by voice. (well, they are probably mostly former blackwatch, and so was he.)

and her handling liquor better is nonsense though, you have no idea how much either of them drank, so you have no information.
seems to me by the picture, she's having one glass, and he's going down on a whole bottle.

[The Glyphstone]

Might not even be his first bottle, at that.

I'd like to see an 'evil Omnic' hero. They did kind of try to take over the world, it had to have been voluntary for at least some of them.

[Keltest]

Might not even be his first bottle, at that.

I'd like to see an 'evil Omnic' hero. They did kind of try to take over the world, it had to have been voluntary for at least some of them.

Maybe once we begin exploring the Second Omnic Crisis in Russia. Someone needs to be leading them, after all.

Without that though, all of the omnics we have seen from the First Crisis have all been giant war machines almost certainly created for that specific purpose, or a similar one.

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe once we begin exploring the Second Omnic Crisis in Russia. Someone needs to be leading them, after all.

Without that though, all of the omnics we have seen from the First Crisis have all been giant war machines almost certainly created for that specific purpose, or a similar one.

It'd just be strange if the entire Omnic Crisis army consisted of Bastion bots and giant mechas. Plus, what were the 'civilian' Omnics doing during the whole thing, maybe some of them fought on the Omnic side?

[Keltest]

It'd just be strange if the entire Omnic Crisis army consisted of Bastion bots and giant mechas. Plus, what were the 'civilian' Omnics doing during the whole thing, maybe some of them fought on the Omnic side?

I rather doubt any civilian omnics fought, since they are non-combatants almost by definition. And while it probably wasn't entirely Bastions, I'm fairly certain that they were the vast majority of their ground troops. They could, perhaps, have been involved in the factories and the like providing supplies and munitions for the omnic armies.

[Psyren]

Mei should have been with Winston. It doesn't make any sense she isn't

Indeed she should have, but then we wouldn't have the narrative tension of "will Winston really be alone on the holidays???"

And I agree, we're missing too many characters.

[BRC]

It'd just be strange if the entire Omnic Crisis army consisted of Bastion bots and giant mechas. Plus, what were the 'civilian' Omnics doing during the whole thing, maybe some of them fought on the Omnic side?

The impression I got of the Omnic Crisis was that it wasn't a "War" in the conventional sense. The Omnics didn't seem to have any ideology or motive besides destruction and conquest.

Before the Crisis, the Omniums were shut down, and the Omnics that had been built by Omnica were somewhat integrated into human society.

During the Omnic Crisis, the Omniums turned back on and started churning out Bastions and giant robots and the like. I don't know what happened with the civilian Omnics at the time, whether they were still free-willed, or if they got controlled by the same power that was behind the Omnic armies. All the War-Omnics seem to have been destroyed with the exception of Bastion.

[Necroticplague]

The impression I got of the Omnic Crisis was that it wasn't a "War" in the conventional sense. The Omnics didn't seem to have any ideology or motive besides destruction and conquest.

Before the Crisis, the Omniums were shut down, and the Omnics that had been built by Omnica were somewhat integrated into human society.

During the Omnic Crisis, the Omniums turned back on and started churning out Bastions and giant robots and the like. I don't know what happened with the civilian Omnics at the time, whether they were still free-willed, or if they got controlled by the same power that was behind the Omnic armies. All the War-Omnics seem to have been destroyed with the exception of Bastion.

Doesn't D.Va's backstory indicate there are some of the 'giant mech' battle-omnics still around, apparently fighting a war they've long lost?

[NeoVid]

The Omnium in Russia is still up and running (and fighting), which is why they're dealing with a Second Omnic Crisis.

(In other news about Russia, they banned the new comic about Tracer.)

[BRC]

Doesn't D.Va's backstory indicate there are some of the 'giant mech' battle-omnics still around, apparently fighting a war they've long lost?

Yeah, I think so?

Like, I also got the distinct impression that lots of the Omniums are still around, just shut off again. The Australian one was blown up by the ALF, and it irradiated the surrounding area, so maybe people are nervous about dismantling them.

Korea occasionally gets attacked by giant omnics from the ocean, which are still adapting. Whatever Overwatch did to shut down the Omnics didn't take in Korea.

Russia beat their Omnium without Overwatch's help, but now it's turned on again, and you have the second omnic crisis, which I believe is currently contained to Russia.

[Landis963]

What would you like to see happen when the playable cast grows to be too large or too complex for new players? I have a bit of a pet theory that, save for a small cadre of heroes (Say, 2-3 heroes per category, plus maybe a few of the more recent releases), they will be locked behind competitive point pay walls (which will be just cheap enough to unlock a new hero every time one completes their placement matches, at maybe a 50% winrate).

Thoughts?

[ChaosOS]

I sincerely doubt we'll get to that point any time soon, plus the promises of all heroes+maps free. Blizz is looking at 3-4 heroes a year, not the MOBA standard of 12+

[LeSwordfish]

I think the Arcade system has a lot of scope for that kind of thing - for example a "for beginners" brawl that consists of one assault/defense/tank/support only.

[Guancyto]

What would you like to see happen when the playable cast grows to be too large or too complex for new players? I have a bit of a pet theory that, save for a small cadre of heroes (Say, 2-3 heroes per category, plus maybe a few of the more recent releases), they will be locked behind competitive point pay walls (which will be just cheap enough to unlock a new hero every time one completes their placement matches, at maybe a 50% winrate).

Thoughts?

forced competitive ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

(sorry)

[Mutazoia]

forced competitive ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

(sorry)

lol

You DO realize the the entire game is competitive play, right? Unless you only play against the A.I.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

lol

You DO realize the the entire game is competitive play, right? Unless you only play against the A.I.

Well, yes. But there's casual competitive and serious competitive. Which I think is pretty obviously what was meant.

[Guancyto]

lol

You DO realize the the entire game is competitive play, right? Unless you only play against the A.I.

The entire game is competitive.

The entire game is not Competitive Mode, which is the thing that awards Competitive Points, which is what the idea was referring to.

Compelling people to participate in Competitive Mode to unlock heroes is a bad, bad idea, much the same way it would be in LoL if you were forced to play Ranked to unlock champions.

[Aux-Ash]

Yeah, I think so?

Like, I also got the distinct impression that lots of the Omniums are still around, just shut off again. The Australian one was blown up by the ALF, and it irradiated the surrounding area, so maybe people are nervous about dismantling them.

Korea occasionally gets attacked by giant omnics from the ocean, which are still adapting. Whatever Overwatch did to shut down the Omnics didn't take in Korea.

Russia beat their Omnium without Overwatch's help, but now it's turned on again, and you have the second omnic crisis, which I believe is currently contained to Russia.

In "Recall" the news broadcast that Winston watches shows us that the second Omnic crisis had killed 50 000 all over the world already, most of the victims in Russia and Europe. So I think this one is worldwide as well, that or the omnics roam quite a bit.

[boomwolf]

Not to be heartless, but 50000 deaths in a global genocidal war is NOTHING. Minor conflicts in the real world eclipse that

[LooseCannoneer]

Not to be heartless, but 50000 deaths in a global genocidal war is NOTHING. Minor conflicts in the real world eclipse that

Agreed. There's far more than 50k people living within a 20-minute drive of me. I think this is just a case of writers choosing a big sounding number, rather than an actual big number.

[Necroticplague]

Agreed. There's far more than 50k people living within a 20-minute drive of me. I think this is just a case of writers choosing a big sounding number, rather than an actual big number.
Or it could be a case to show how horrifically one-sided the war was. Given Australia's laws, Roadhog's backstory seems to indicate that that an omnium could be destroyed by a ragtag, poorly-armed militia. To say nothing about how well an efficiently operating military could have dealt with them.

[DaedalusMkV]

Not to be heartless, but 50000 deaths in a global genocidal war is NOTHING. Minor conflicts in the real world eclipse that

Uh, that's the second Omnic Crisis. Y'know, the one that started a month ago and is still fairly constrained in scope and scale, and which the protagonists are trying to stop before it gets going.

The actual Omnic Crisis killed tens of millions and wiped entire countries off the map.

[boomwolf]

Uh, that's the second Omnic Crisis. Y'know, the one that started a month ago and is still fairly constrained in scope and scale, and which the protagonists are trying to stop before it gets going.

The actual Omnic Crisis killed tens of millions and wiped entire countries off the map.

Yea, but 50000 in a month is nothing. Even compared to "mere" civil war

[Keltest]

Yea, but 50000 in a month is nothing. Even compared to "mere" civil war

Isnt it mostly contained to the middle of Siberia?

[DaedalusMkV]

Yea, but 50000 in a month is nothing. Even compared to "mere" civil war

That's more people than have died in the Ukrainian convict in the last three years. It's about equivalent to three or four months of casualties in Syria right now (though less than at the height of that conflict). Or total casualties on both sides during a month in the Korean war. 50000 deaths in any event is enough to make front page news worldwide. Especially if it makes people think of a massive, apocalyptic event from recent memory.

[Velaryon]

Comic over here (http://comic.playoverwatch.com/en-us/tracer-reflections), but there's also this really neat animated/sound version (http://content.madefire.com/s-cb940f3d62a84f968c05338787ff2196/index.html#). Nice to see Blizzard making the face of Overwatch the LGBT character they mentioned. I'm also super interested in Widowmaker and Reaper's cameos. Some people have put forth theories that that may have been Gabriel's old family, before he died, and that Widowmaker's brainwashing either wasn't complete or is starting to wear off (she also references Gerard in a few voice lines in-game) It also looks possible that Genji and Mercy are pen-pals or something. Hanzo is also interesting: he got a haircut and a piercing, which is the most we've learned about him since Dragons. He's mentioned being in Numbani and seems to know about Junkrat's treasure, so I really wanna know what the heck he's been up to.

Apparently Genji/Mercy is a pretty common ship. Not as common as Pharah/Mercy in my experience, but that one might be on the decline since neither of them was revealed as gay.

As far as Tracer's "big reveal," it doesn't really mean much to me. I'd be more interested if there were an actual story mode in Overwatch, in which her relationship actually played a part. As it is right now, it's mostly just a point of trivia about her. I guess if it helps people feel represented then that's nice, but that sort of thing has never been terribly important to me.



What would you like to see happen when the playable cast grows to be too large or too complex for new players? I have a bit of a pet theory that, save for a small cadre of heroes (Say, 2-3 heroes per category, plus maybe a few of the more recent releases), they will be locked behind competitive point pay walls (which will be just cheap enough to unlock a new hero every time one completes their placement matches, at maybe a 50% winrate).

Thoughts?

I sincerely hope nothing like this ever happens. As someone who cares nothing for Competitive Mode or gold guns, I stick to Quick Play and plan to remain that way. If they start locking characters behind a mode I don't want to play, I may start looking elsewhere for my team-based shooter needs.

I mean, better that than locking them behind the 1v1 Mystery Duel mode (seriously, screw that mode, I hope it dies in a fire), but I still don't think it's a good idea.

[The_Jackal]

I sincerely hope nothing like this ever happens. As someone who cares nothing for Competitive Mode or gold guns, I stick to Quick Play and plan to remain that way. If they start locking characters behind a mode I don't want to play, I may start looking elsewhere for my team-based shooter needs.

I mean, better that than locking them behind the 1v1 Mystery Duel mode (seriously, screw that mode, I hope it dies in a fire), but I still don't think it's a good idea.

Seconded, obviously. As someone who thinks Competitive should be removed so a) the game gets less toxic, and b) The queues all get faster.

[Landis963]

What if they started giving out "competitive points" for QP victories as well? Would that make my system less awful? (Assuming of course that Competitive is here to stay)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

What if they started giving out "competitive points" for QP victories as well? Would that make my system less awful? (Assuming of course that Competitive is here to stay)

Less awful? Yes.

Still awful given Overwatch's promise that characters will be free? Yeah, pretty much.

Having a smaller character pool works in things like League of Legends or HotS because you only need (and can only use) one character per match. In a game where switching IS the game, hard-limiting people because they don't have an unlock feels...wrong. One of the things I hated about the TF2 item system, frankly.

[Psyren]

Landis, think of what you're proposing. Characters/kits in this game are basically like guns in a regular shooter; you're expected to switch to the gun (character) that you can use, which best solves the problem you and your team need to solve in order to win.

Paywalling some of the characters in a switching game like this one, would be like paywalling some of the guns in a standard shooter. More guns (characters) = more choices/solutions, and therefore more power. And in a competitive multiplayer game, you should never, ever sell power. The whales will gobble it up for the advantages and prestige it gives them, but everyone else will either just quit, or pay but feel resentment at doing so, which just leads to them quitting a little later. And once they do, the whales won't have anyone to prey on, causing them to leave too and the game to become a ghost town of wasted potential.

TL;DR this is a really bad idea.

[LansXero]

What if they started giving out "competitive points" for QP victories as well? Would that make my system less awful? (Assuming of course that Competitive is here to stay)

But what for? because the roster is too "large and complicated for a new player"? Its not like he HAS to play every hero out there, he doesnt even HAVE to switch midfight if he doesnt want to. What would it acomplish, beyond the guy getting hated on when his team wants him to switch to X hero and he has to go "cant do that, Im too new".

[Landis963]

Landis, think of what you're proposing. Characters/kits in this game are basically like guns in a regular shooter; you're expected to switch to the gun (character) that you can use, which best solves the problem you and your team need to solve in order to win.

Paywalling some of the characters in a switching game like this one, would be like paywalling some of the guns in a standard shooter. More guns (characters) = more choices/solutions, and therefore more power. And in a competitive multiplayer game, you should never, ever sell power. The whales will gobble it up for the advantages and prestige it gives them, but everyone else will either just quit, or pay but feel resentment at doing so, which just leads to them quitting a little later. And once they do, the whales won't have anyone to prey on, causing them to leave too and the game to become a ghost town of wasted potential.

TL;DR this is a really bad idea.

Locking heroes behind a paywall is a terrible idea, yes. Luckily, that was not what I was proposing. Under the current setup, when you win or draw a competitive match, you get competitive points. Nothing is exchanged in return for these points except time. I'm suggesting that these competitive points be used to unlock heroes for new players, meaning they can get access to the heroes that they're interested in, without having to worry much about others. (Of course, that comes with its own problems, namely the fact that new players would be forced to play competitive - a bad idea on several levels - which is why I suggested handing those points out to QP as well, at the same rate)

What I'm trying to figure out is how (if Blizz goes this route) a small cadre of free heroes (again, with the rest locked behind nothing but time) might be put in place, a la the free sampling of champions that you get in MOBAs like League or HotS. This won't become relevant until the roster grows to be obscenely large, if ever.

[Actana]

In my opinion the best idea of how to separate the heroes for new players is to put a bit more emphasis on presenting how difficult each hero is to play. Have everything unlocked by default, but divide the heroes into "beginner", "advanced" and "expert" levels and show that in the hero choosing screen. The heroes are already divided into it to begin with, with their one to three -star ranking in difficulty. Just make that a bit more explicit so the new players don't immediately pick the hardest heroes to learn. And if they do, well, at least they know what they're getting into.

Locking heroes behind anything is a bad idea, since it fosters a hostile environment to players who have only recently started, and the fact that counter-heroes are a thing.

[LeSwordfish]

The reason I suggested a seperate mode for a restricted number of heroes was that, remember, you need to have a decent idea of your opponent's capabilities as well as your own. You need to understand what is happening to you, not just your own abilities. Restricting unlocked heroes just means you're only ever going to run into "rare" heroes being piloted by good players - so not only do you have no idea what's happening to you, but a really good player is the one doing it, and you can't try out that class yourself.

[Balmas]

Locking heroes behind a paywall is a terrible idea, yes. Luckily, that was not what I was proposing. Under the current setup, when you win or draw a competitive match, you get competitive points. Nothing is exchanged in return for these points except time. I'm suggesting that these competitive points be used to unlock heroes for new players, meaning they can get access to the heroes that they're interested in, without having to worry much about others. (Of course, that comes with its own problems, namely the fact that new players would be forced to play competitive - a bad idea on several levels - which is why I suggested handing those points out to QP as well, at the same rate)

Here's the thing, though: There is literally no reason why new players should have to unlock a hero. As has been pointed out, heroes in this game are like weapons; you choose the one that best fixes the current situation; locking off heroes is pointless, unfair, and unfun. The system you propose gives no advantages to new players, gives several advantages to experienced people, and would lead to the game being more difficult and less fun for new players. Nothing about this idea is good. :smallconfused:

[ChaosOS]

Regardless, this is solving a problem that doesn't exist and won't exist. Blizzard is very explicit about this not being a MOBA when it comes to new characters, I'm expecting we're getting no more than 3-4 heroes per year, which is not a significant amount to learn. Even a new player in 2 years will have only 30ish heroes to learn, which isn't that many.

[GolemsVoice]

So Overwatch has apparentlöy decided I should be Mei, regardless of whether I want that or not, since it has given me the Rescue Mei, Firefighter Mei, and Christmas Mei skins. The last two one after the other.

[Chambers]

Finally finished my placement matches for season 3 (took a break when the season started). Went 5/5, placed about same as last season. Some griefer did the Symmetra teleporter trick on the last match, caused us to lose it. I wish there was a 'Report Player' button for Overwatch, didn't expect to get trolled in Competitive. I guess that's the point of it for the griefer though, that's where it matters most.

Speaking of Symmetra, Im seeing her picked a lot more since her update and she is shredding. I haven't seen a lot of good use of the floating shield but being able to dump all her turrets at once is great.

[mythmonster2]

There is a report player button: in-game, you can press whatever button shows your stats, click on the arrow next to someone, and there should be a report player option. Also, in Recent Players under the social tab, you can right-click on someone's name and report them from there.

[Pendulous]

So Overwatch has apparentlöy decided I should be Mei, regardless of whether I want that or not, since it has given me the Rescue Mei, Firefighter Mei, and Christmas Mei skins. The last two one after the other.

Mei is fun. Mei is best. Embrace the Mei.

Each night I think I get a 1k + Transcendence, but I still haven't gotten the 1,500 achievement. haven't even bothered going for Rapid Discord, that's never gonna happen.

[TheManicMonocle]

Mei is fun. Mei is best. Embrace the Mei.

Each night I think I get a 1k + Transcendence, but I still haven't gotten the 1,500 achievement. haven't even bothered going for Rapid Discord, that's never gonna happen.

Mei is my... Main (Mein? get it?)

[Velaryon]

Seconded, obviously. As someone who thinks Competitive should be removed so a) the game gets less toxic, and b) The queues all get faster.

I think the toxic element would just come back to Quick Play if that happened.


Locking heroes behind a paywall is a terrible idea, yes. Luckily, that was not what I was proposing. Under the current setup, when you win or draw a competitive match, you get competitive points. Nothing is exchanged in return for these points except time. I'm suggesting that these competitive points be used to unlock heroes for new players, meaning they can get access to the heroes that they're interested in, without having to worry much about others. (Of course, that comes with its own problems, namely the fact that new players would be forced to play competitive - a bad idea on several levels - which is why I suggested handing those points out to QP as well, at the same rate)

What I'm trying to figure out is how (if Blizz goes this route) a small cadre of free heroes (again, with the rest locked behind nothing but time) might be put in place, a la the free sampling of champions that you get in MOBAs like League or HotS. This won't become relevant until the roster grows to be obscenely large, if ever.

I don't understand what the value would be in locking characters. Why, when we already have 23 characters who can be played by anyone, would you want to lock anybody?



So Overwatch has apparentlöy decided I should be Mei, regardless of whether I want that or not, since it has given me the Rescue Mei, Firefighter Mei, and Christmas Mei skins. The last two one after the other.

I've gotten this for Hanzo and Zarya, two characters I absolutely am not good at playing.

[The_Jackal]

I wish there was a 'Report Player' button for Overwatch, didn't expect to get trolled in Competitive. I guess that's the point of it for the griefer though, that's where it matters most.

There is. Go to 'Social', 'Recent Players', and right-click on their nametag.


I think the toxic element would just come back to Quick Play if that happened.

Come back? It never left.

[GolemsVoice]

I've gotten this for Hanzo and Zarya, two characters I absolutely am not good at playing.

Hanzo I can't play and won't, just like his brother (for whom I got the nomad skin, grrr), but I really would like to be better at Zarya than I am, I just don't get her. It seems that on enemies shields last forever, and for me they always fizzle out moments after pressing the button.

[The_Jackal]

Hanzo I can't play and won't, just like his brother (for whom I got the nomad skin, grrr), but I really would like to be better at Zarya than I am, I just don't get her. It seems that on enemies shields last forever, and for me they always fizzle out moments after pressing the button.

The deal there is that her shields are only 200 HP, so on most heroes, it's doubling their health, which is substantial, but if your enemies just keep firing, they're going to pop that bubble in no time. One of the most consistent mistakes I see made in QP is players who hold their fire when faced with barriers of any kind, when, in large part, the team that breaks the enemy barriers first without dying stupid will be the likely winner of the teamfight.

Zarya's barriers aren't remotely as tough as Reinhardt's rectangle, but they are enough to save a teammate from an enemy finisher, like Roadhog's hook or McCree's Flashbang. They DO fizzle out fast, but if you can use the two seconds they give you to win the gunfight, they're hugely powerful.

I'm not sure why you won't play Hanzo or Genji, they're both perfectly good heroes, and playing them will actually give you a better conception of their weaknesses.

[GolemsVoice]

Oh I don't doubt that they're powerful, they just don't quite fit my playstyle.

[Avilan the Grey]

So, I will get this tomorrow. Any hints or tips?

[BRC]

So, I will get this tomorrow. Any hints or tips?

Don't stress, feel free to try different characters. once you get a good sense of how the game works, I recommend trying out Mystery Mode, which picks a random character for you everytime you die. It doesn't usually let you play with their ultimates, but it's a decent way to try out a bunch of characters in a low-stress environment (at least until somebody on the other team gets their main)

I don't know how much you've played other multiplayer FPS games, but Overwatch is based on the principle that there is never more than one point of conflict at a time. The Payload, the point, ect. Everybody is either trying to take it, defend it, or occasionally flank to help take it/defend it.


Good, simple starter characters: Soldier 76 is designed to play like a standard FPS character. You can be a decent Lucio simply by turning on healing aura and staying near the biggest group of allies you can find. Winston isn't the best tank in the game, but he doesn't need to aim.



Don't stress about numbers, or any particular play. Overwatch is a game about winning or losing as a team. You WILL get sniped by Widowmaker, you will get hooked by Roadhog, frozen by Mei, gunned down by Bastion, pinned by Reinhardt, knocked off cliffs by Lucio, and sticky bombed by Tracer. You will see your whole team go down to a Zarya+Hanzo ult combo. You will see yourself die, over and over again, helplessly.

But don't take that as a measure of yourself as a player, that's just the way the game goes sometimes. The characters are not supposed to be balanced against each other in all situations, they're supposed to be working together, spending resources and getting lucky is all part of the game, even if you're sometimes on the receiving end of those resources. Just get back up and get in there.

Play of the Game is meaningless, don't get salty when you don't get it.
Same goes for cards, or votes, or whatever.

Some character-specific tips

D.Va's Ultimate is terrifying, but easy to dodge. Literally any obstacle, no matter how thin, between you and the explosion will stop it. Reinhardt or Winston shields can block it.

Similar principle with McCree's Ultimate, get out of line of sight until you hear him shoot, OR take him out quickly. Oh, I should mention that the game uses a LOT of audio cues, so if you usually mute your games and have something on in the background, don't.

Zarya is a complex character, both to play as, and against. Damage taken by her shields boosts her power, so if an Allied Zarya bubbles you ,try to get shot at for a few seconds to charge her up (I've wasted so many shields on people who duck around a corner seeking health packs).

Bastion is terrifyingly powerful, but it can be beaten. It's critical spot is on it's back, so flanking can work pretty well.

While you're learning how to play, try playing Lucio, Soldier, or Mercy, at least until you get a sense of where the health packs are on various maps.

Reinhardt's Shield won't regenerate while it's up, so shoot at that. Winston's bubbles can be broken, but will go away on their own after a while. Zarya's bubbles will break with enough damage, but doing so will charge her up. D.Vas Cone of Shielding is purely time-based, shooting into that just wastes ammo.

Also, when judging effectiveness, Tanks are not DPS with more hit points. The purpose of Tanks is to protect their team, either directly (Reinhardt, Zarya, D.VA) or by having a big, disruptive presence on the battlefield (Winston, Roadhog) despite not necessarily dealing DPS levels of damage, thus forcing the enemy to chew through their mountain of hit points.

[Actana]

Sound cues are also very important in the game, especially for ultimates. The line that an ally says when performing an ultimate is different than when an enemy uses it. For example, Pharah says "Justice Rains From Above" when she performs rocket barrage as an enemy (and when you do it yourself), but when an allied Pharah does the same thing you get the voice line of "Rocket barrage incoming" (or something like that, might not be an exact quote). It's the same with all heroes, and you'll eventually learn what means what. As a rule of thumb though, if it's angrier and not English, it's the enemy. Not all enemy ult callouts are angry or in something else than English, but many are.

Footsteps of enemies are more audible than of allies. Something to keep in mind when near corners.


If you get stunned by an effect, be if Roadhog's hook, Ana's sleep or McCree's flashbang, if you want to use an ability at the very first moment as the stun goes away, hold down the button to do so, don't tap repeatedly. Same goes for skills in cooldown. You can, in fact, hold down buttons for everything, even for weapons that are supposedly semi-automatic.


Oh, and Mercy's pistol does a surprising amount of damage.

[BRC]

Oh, a note about Team Comp for quickplay.

There are two philosophies for team composition, the first is to try to lock in your preferred hero/role right away, the second is to sit back, see what other people pick, then fill in the neccessary roles.


For example, if the team is McCree, Pharah, D.Va, Junkrat, and Tracer, perhaps pick Mercy or Ana.

If the team is Junkrat, Bastion, Zenyatta, Genji, and Symettra, maybe pick Reinhardt or Roadhog.


In these situations, do NOT pick Hanzo. I don't know why it's always Hanzo. But, anytime 5 people have picked, and there is no tank or healer, the last person either fills the missing slot, OR goes Hanzo.

I don't know why it's always Hanzo. I never see these people pick Genji or Pharah, they always go Hanzo, as if staring the rest of the team down until somebody else changes.

[Dienekes]

So, I will get this tomorrow. Any hints or tips?

Think of characters less as characters and more like weapons, tools to be used and discarded at a moments notice.

That said, unless you have a very firm idea of what style of play you like (Personally, I enjoy melee and I enjoy being a front-line fighter, so I instantly picked up Reinhardt and am unsurprised that he has remained my favorite character) it is best to jump around and try characters, by whatever metric you want. If you like a characters design, or voice, or thought that they had this one super cool ability when you played against them, try them out, see how they feel, and go from there.

Also, learn maps. Learning how the map works is as important, if not moreso, than knowing the exact abilities of every enemy you may or may not encounter.

[Chambers]

Some really good tips posted already. Here's a few more.


Torbjorns turret has a range, meaning that you can stand beyond it's range and shoot it without it shooting at you. Damage fall off is an issue though for most characters at that range, so be aware of that too.
Don't Panic when you walk into a room and get hit by Symmetra's Sentry Turrets. They won't kill you instantly. Stay calm and turn around until you see it and then shoot it. Splash damage is good for clearing her turrets as they only have 1 HP.
To practice getting better at headshots setup a custom game and fill the AI enemy team with Ana, and turn on Headshots Only. Ana can't headshot people, so you can practice at headshots without having to worry about taking damage or dying.
When you have learned to recognize when Zenyatta has his Orb of Discord on an enemy, focus fire on that enemy. His OoD boosts all damage dealt to the target by 30%.
Always protect your healers. If it means jumping in the way of an Ult so they live and you die, that's fine.

[LooseCannoneer]

If you're playing Mercy, the first character you should be keeping alive is yourself, except in those on the wire situations where if you don't have damage NOW, you lose. There are several other people good at doing damage, but if you die, that's around 15 seconds of greatly reduced / no healing. Better to let the Genji die because they have no idea how far forward they are than to doom your team.

[NeoVid]

So, I will get this tomorrow. Any hints or tips?

Try every character in the shooting range when you start out, so you have a clue what all of them do, and which ones you'll find most fun. Find at least one character you like playing out of each of the categories, because counterpicking is central to the game.

Aside from that, try to play a lot right after you get the game. Since the Holiday loot crates have boosted chances at rare drops, and the first few player levels take much less XP than the rest, you'll get a bunch of cool stuff right away.

Friendlisting a bunch of us is also highly recommended, though when you're starting out, it's a bad idea to team with players of a much higher level. You'll have an easier time getting the hang of the game if you start out playing against other beginners, trust me.

[Velaryon]

So, I will get this tomorrow. Any hints or tips?

Others have given lots of great advice already, so I'm gonna try to avoid repeating them.

1. Your kill/death ratio doesn't mean a damn thing. What matters is winning the match. Sometimes you'll have to do things like get killed by stepping on the objective to trigger overtime when the clock is running out, or taking a shot meant for your healer. Teamwork and playing the objective matter more than your KDR.

2. This is a team-based game. The better you can coordinate with teammates, the more successful you will be. To that end, it's helpful to play with friends if you can. If not, at least try to pay attention to what your teammates are doing. It's very difficult to play well when you're outnumbered, so try to stick with the team unless you're playing a character whose specific role is to go off solo and be disruptive.

3. Team composition is a big part of the strategy. Right now there are 23 characters in the game. Each one has certain characters they excel against and others that they are weak against. If a certain character seems grossly overpowered to you, odds are good that they actually counter the character you're playing right now. Try to learn these, or at least learn who your chosen heroes are strong and weak against. Also try to pick someone that will complement what your teammates are playing.

4. Learn a handful of different characters. Sometimes you will get shut down hard because someone on the enemy team is countering you hard, so change to someone else. Sometimes your healer switches to a different character or the tank player suddenly quits, so you might want to fill the role. Sometimes, someone else picks the character you want before you can get them, and in most modes there's only one of each character allowed now (this didn't used to be the case). So it's a good idea to develop a stable of 4 or 5 "main" characters you can play, and maybe a few more that you will play situationally, on certain maps or against certain characters.

5. Try not to lose your cool. As with any online game, there are jerks - some people will harass you for picking a certain character because they think that character is trash, or they wanted that character. Don't let it get to you, and don't become one of these people. Also, the game uses a "skill-based matchmaking" system, which means that the more often you win, the tougher your opponents will become. In practice, I often find that this means you'll go on a winning streak until you start matching up against people that are too good for you to beat, and then you'll get a losing streak of badly coordinated teams until you start getting matched against easier opponents. Most people's win records will hover close to 50% for this reason; it's rare to see outliers more than 5-10% from there.

There's plenty more advice that we can give, but that's the general stuff that I'd want to get out there to you first. We can always talk specific characters, modes, and stages later.

[LooseCannoneer]

So, I'm trying out Tracer sometime soon - I've noticed that I have a high kdr on her, even though I really only use Tracer in races to keep contesting. Any tips for anything more complicated than getting to the point and staying alive?

[Velaryon]

So, I'm trying out Tracer sometime soon - I've noticed that I have a high kdr on her, even though I really only use Tracer in races to keep contesting. Any tips for anything more complicated than getting to the point and staying alive?

Tracer's greatest strength is her speed and mobility - she's pretty hard to hit as long as you never, ever stop moving. So learn to shoot on the fly if you haven't already, because if you stop to aim, you're probably going to die.

Good players learn to read Tracer's blinks and her rewind, which means that when you recall, they won't lose sight of you and may even be able to kill you. To foil this, try to attack from unexpected angles. Drop down off of a ledge, unload a quick clip, then recall yourself back up onto the ledge, for example.

Also remember that recall clears off negative effects and damage taken, so you can use it to get rid of a discord orb or venom mine. It won't save you from Junkrat's trap though, nor from being frozen by Mei once she's already gotten you.

You might have figured this out already, but she can blink across some pits to reach certain areas faster (though it may require more than one blink). So she can take the shortcut from point A to point B on Hanamura, or she can cross the gap in Lijiang Tower: Garden to reach the point faster.

Her ultimate is tricky to use well, because it requires a fair amount of precision. The easiest things to stick it on are tanks, turret mode Bastions, and cryo-frozen Mei's. Dropping it on Mei is particularly satisfying because she can be so hard to defeat, but make sure you don't drop it too early or it will go off before she unfreezes. Putting it on tanks is good, but it won't kill most of them if they're at full health (maybe Zarya if she doesn't shield). So make sure they're wounded first if you're trying to kill them. Also, if you can become accurate with it, it's good to throw it into a group of enemies. Often if you can stick it on one person, they will panic and run right into someone else, letting you get two or more kills at a time.

All of that is pretty basic advice, so hopefully someone else can give more.

[Avilan the Grey]

Thank you all, I will read thru all your tips when I start playing in earnest :smallbiggrin:
In the meantime: I looked at the Origins Edition, but unlike say Bethesda or Paradox or Bioware, Blizzard does not seem to include things in their special editions that I find interesting. Literaly NOTHING in that edition spikes my fancy, and quite honestly except for the (rather ugly IMHO) skins I cannot even use anything else. Well the card backs, but I haven't played Hearthstone in 2 years.

[BRC]

Thank you all, I will read thru all your tips when I start playing in earnest :smallbiggrin:
In the meantime: I looked at the Origins Edition, but unlike say Bethesda or Paradox or Bioware, Blizzard does not seem to include things in their special editions that I find interesting. Literaly NOTHING in that edition spikes my fancy, and quite honestly except for the (rather ugly IMHO) skins I cannot even use anything else. Well the card backs, but I haven't played Hearthstone in 2 years.

You are making a wise choice my friend. I accidentally bought the Origins edition, and it definitely was not worth it.

[Dienekes]

Thank you all, I will read thru all your tips when I start playing in earnest :smallbiggrin:
In the meantime: I looked at the Origins Edition, but unlike say Bethesda or Paradox or Bioware, Blizzard does not seem to include things in their special editions that I find interesting. Literaly NOTHING in that edition spikes my fancy, and quite honestly except for the (rather ugly IMHO) skins I cannot even use anything else. Well the card backs, but I haven't played Hearthstone in 2 years.

One of the best (or worst, depending on your view I suppose) things about Blizzard is that they sell you the complete game. There's no special content behind paywalls, there are no super items you have to grind for.

All there is are entirely optional, entirely pointless skins and images. That's all you get from collectors editions, that's all you get from loot boxes. They're dumb, they don't effect play at all, you don't need to waste money. You got everything you need from the get go.

[NeoVid]

The expensive edition of OW is pretty sad. When I first looked it over, I realized it was $20 extra to get what would be the most commonly used skins in the game. Haha, no.

By the way, we've been forgetting to give mechanics advice. OW has options to let you see allies' HP bars at all times, which is really good info to have. There's plenty of other options for the UI that are worth modifying, but I'm in a rush to post at the moment, sorry.

[Avilan the Grey]

The expensive edition of OW is pretty sad. When I first looked it over, I realized it was $20 extra to get what would be the most commonly used skins in the game. Haha, no.

By the way, we've been forgetting to give mechanics advice. OW has options to let you see allies' HP bars at all times, which is really good info to have. There's plenty of other options for the UI that are worth modifying, but I'm in a rush to post at the moment, sorry.

I'll look into the UI settings. Spent this morning trying to set up controls for left handed use and upping the graphics. (I have dual cards and like a lot of games it fails to detect the NVIDIA card if don't manually forces it to. I am now running ultra settings at 60 fps.

[GolemsVoice]

Blizzard is really heavy into cross-promoting, so all special editions get "better" the more of their games you have on one account. I personally like that they give out nice, but in the end meaningless bonuses, so you can set yourself apart with cool skins without breaking the game. I got the Origins Edition after free weekend (like half the world it seems) when it was priced like the normal game (I think 35 Euro or something).

[Avilan the Grey]

Blizzard is really heavy into cross-promoting, so all special editions get "better" the more of their games you have on one account. I personally like that they give out nice, but in the end meaningless bonuses, so you can set yourself apart with cool skins without breaking the game. I got the Origins Edition after free weekend (like half the world it seems) when it was priced like the normal game (I think 35 Euro or something).

I understand that's the idea but... I haven't played D3 since 3 months after launch and I haven't played Hearthstone since before it came out on Android. So...
(At some point I want to try D3 again, people say it has changed, but the DLC is still too expensive for me).

[GolemsVoice]

Diablo HAS changed, it|s almost a completely new game, but like the Origins edition, I can absolutely see why this won't be your cup of tea.

[The_Jackal]

The expensive edition of OW is pretty sad. When I first looked it over, I realized it was $20 extra to get what would be the most commonly used skins in the game. Haha, no.

I liked the Widowmaker, Reaper and Soldier skins from the Origins Edition, and for me the extra $20 (the price difference at launch) is basically lunch money, so I'm happy to give Blizzard the extra dough. Also, if you play other Blizzard titles, there's other perks that are cute as well. Bottom line, there's no need to get your back up over 'Publisher Greed', because what they're doing is letting people like me subsidize the game for everyone. Also, I'm much happier with a 'Spend X, get Y' model of monetization than the 'Gambling Packs' model, which, IMO, really is pernicious and greedy (even if it effectively is the same thing, letting wallet warriors subsidize the game for everyone).

[Avilan the Grey]

Diablo HAS changed, it|s almost a completely new game, but like the Origins edition, I can absolutely see why this won't be your cup of tea.

Well as I understand it the Diablo 3 dlc actually has some meat to it?

[GolemsVoice]

This is probably a discussion for another thread, but yes, it does. 20 Euro (Dollars too, as far as I know) are a steep price, but they really do add a lot to the (end)game that I now would not want to miss.