Tips for handling rocket tag (3.PF)

[WarKitty]

I have a level 9 party consisting of a druid, a rogue/assassin, a cavalier, a cloistered cleric, and a paladin. As we approach higher levels I'm noticing an increasing amount of rocket tag, and I'd like to cut down on it a bit. I've DM'd before but never for a party of this nature. Any ideas on having good, proper challenges as higher levels approach would be appreciated.

[nedz]

It's tricky but you could use more defensive builds for your bad guys - mooks especially - but they still have to be a threat. Also - more of them, with more terrain, and more tactics.

[WarKitty]

Part of the worry is that even with multiple enemies, they have pretty good save-or-suck area of effect spells. So multiple enemies still tend to die quickly if my players get the jump on them.

[Tamorlin]

As we approach higher levels I'm noticing an increasing amount of rocket tag, and I'd like to cut down on it a bit.

The easiest and simplest way to achieve that is working with the hit points.

Double the creature's listed hit points for elite mooks. Multiply the hit points by the number of PCs for solo enemies. Do not adjust the creature's CR.

[Eldest]

Another possibility is stages. Say a mook has 3 pools of 20hp each. First one gets taken out, you say he's pretty battered but don't touch the next stage's hp, and they get another save against one effect.

[ace rooster]

At level 9 raise dead comes online, so rocket tag is less of a game ender. You just need to learn to play rocket tag, because it is the game. :smalltongue:

You look like you have some glass cannon builds in there, to the point where there is almost no point rolling damage. The game is essentially over if a side gets into a good position to attack, so how you play before that is where the game is. The cavalier should understand that getting a charge on an important target is his win condition, so an intelligent enemy will avoid letting that happen. If the rogue gets a good full attack sneak attack he will likely kill anything, so that is what they are playing for, while the driud just needs a full attack.

As an evil overlord, you should remember that your mooks are expendable. A mook that absorbs a solid attack aimed at a more important target has done their job. Make sure you know your mook's jobs. They can be divided among full attacker, charger, meatshield, harass, and utility/BFC. If you aim for 3-4 'hits' from your full attackers or chargers being able to take out the tankier members and ~2 to take out the squishier members, you should get a decent game. Harass can often mean readying actions to disrupt casters, or even charging to trip. Be creative, but don't make mooks that try to do everything.

Remember that SoS does not mean dead. A utility mook and a couple of full attackers moving in and dropping an obscuring mist can make it very difficult to convert safely.

As for the players getting the jump, important targets should always have a screen of mooks at least 60' in radius, and usually involving a some walls. Take a whole building as a single encounter and things get much more intersting. The important targets should avoid line of effect of anyone that only needs line of effect.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Try throwing in a dedicated counterspeller sometimes, or a dedicated crusader healing team (Martial Spirit on the mooks, Therapeutic Mantle + consumptive field on the boss). The crusaders are all going to die, but that's okay, because every time they hit (note: touch attacks (trip!) are okay, but they must be melee attacks), the boss regains 6 or 8 hp, and when they die, the boss gains power, as well. Plus there's Iron Guard's Glare and all of White Raven to annoy your players (within reason, of course).

Make sure your bosses are all paladins or blackguards, with high charisma modifiers, vests of resistance and proper self-buffs. If they're not using Divine Grace, maybe they're relying on immunities (warforged, necropolitans, ethergaunts), natural saves (dragons) or stealth (incorporeal creatures).

[Necroticplague]

Well, for once thing, for what reason do you want to cancel out the rocket tag? Is there some specific aspect of it you don't like? 'Rocket tag' is a pretty big, vague collection of things with several aspects. It might be easier to just focus on the troubling aspects instead of trying to cut it down as a whole.

[WarKitty]

Well, for once thing, for what reason do you want to cancel out the rocket tag? Is there some specific aspect of it you don't like? 'Rocket tag' is a pretty big, vague collection of things with several aspects. It might be easier to just focus on the troubling aspects instead of trying to cut it down as a whole.

I'm mostly feeling like the game isn't fun anymore because encounters end too quickly. I'm also feeling like in difficult encounters the spellcasters are often ending the encounter before the melee even has time to get into position.

[ace rooster]

I'm mostly feeling like the game isn't fun anymore because encounters end too quickly. I'm also feeling like in difficult encounters the spellcasters are often ending the encounter before the melee even has time to get into position.

Mundanes have sustain that casters do not. Time limits prevent the 15 min adventuring day*, and if the PCs have to fight minor encounters to get to the difficult ones then the sucess of the minor ones can be counted in the spells they draw out. A silent image trap of a hydra eating a carcass is a CR1 encounter, but can easily draw a spell. Encounters can be made to last longer by not being what they seem. The party might regret novaing when (if) they discover that the 'wizard' guarding the cave was actually one of the prisoners dominated and dressed in robes.

Vision is also another often overlooked consideration, because you cannot cast single target spells at targets you cannot see. Darkness and fog are powerful tools to change a battlefield, and are a great reaction to a save or suck. Invisibility is also worth bringing up, particularly as there are no wizards in your party for see invisibility.

Another thing often underused is scale. Don't be scared to change the size of a square from 5' to 20' or larger for outdoor encounters. At the standard grid size a tennis court is 16 squares across, while the Colusseum is 56 squares long, so any combat at any sensible range will not fit on the grid. Your AoE problems are probably a result of trying to fit all your encounters into the size of a dining room. Combat at that distance does go quickly.

Generally it is best to regard any caster as armed with a death ray. Line of effect is line of death, so do not allow line of effect on important targets. On the other hand, get them to waste shots. Large numbers of 'easy' encounters will be more effective against mid level casters than mundanes, who generally only need to worry about HP which they can get back pretty quickly.

* There is almost always a time limit. The theives will not be idle while you withdraw to rest. They might not be able to prepare effective defenses, in which case they might simply scatter. It shuts down the operation, so the PCs could call it a partial success, but they could do much better. Pest control operations (such as clearing the undead from a crypt) can be done in stages, but often the pests are doing damage, or they wouldn't need controlled. Put an artifact in the crypt that raises a certain number of undead a night and the party would have to start again from the beginning if they didn't finish it though. Wealthy intelligent opponents such as dragons might bring in extra guards when they realise that the PCs have gone through their first line in 6 seconds, assuming they stick around at all.

[Darth Ultron]

I'm mostly feeling like the game isn't fun anymore because encounters end too quickly. I'm also feeling like in difficult encounters the spellcasters are often ending the encounter before the melee even has time to get into position.

1.More foes and more encounters. This is simple as you just want more targets. The idea is to get them to use up there spells quicker, even more so the special meatmagic ones.

2.Spread the foes, and encounters, out. You really want to avoid the video game like set up where a bunch of foes will bunch up together just to be targets of area attack spells.

3.Bump up the power level of all the foes. Even if your playing a die hard my the book game, you can still power up all the foes. There are tons of templates of +0 and +1 that can boost foes. The same is true of class levels, feats and even magic items. Use the higher powered foes like outsiders and more so fiends.

4.False targets. This is simply another way to get them to use up resources. This is what illusions are made for: wasting a maxmimized fireball on the group of orcs illusion. You can also do it ''for real'' as orcs with enlarge person look a lot more like ''ogres'' the orcs.

5.Debilitating effects. Sadly a lot of games don't use them, but they are there for a reason...to weaken foes. Anything that makes a PC weaker is good: poison, curses, spell effects and so on. That ''-2'' can have a big effect, when a roll is missed by one.

6.Strategy. This is the big one, but it is a lot more work for the Dm. But it comes with higher level play. Have the foes use strategy and tactics.


So don't have some door guarded by ''by the book goblin warrior 3''s, have them be guarded by half fire element goblin hexblades 3. Just the arcane restistance and mettle from the hexblade can have them resist many a spells....

And toss in more creatures like a half-fiend spellwarped ghost stirge or Red Half-Dragon Gelatinous Cube or a Flame-Spawned Monstrous Centipede, Gargantuan.

[Terumitsu]

As a player in this game (I'm the paladin though Kitty has graciously allowed me to use the Pathfinder version), I'll try to shed some light on things in the interest of providing better feedback in general. A game is a co-operative thing between GM and Players rather than a competition, after all, and I'm interested in making this fun for everyone.

With the party of our size as well as the players involved, we have most of our bases covered when it comes to nearly any situation as well as having decent overlap to pinch-hit for each other.

We also utilize summons of various kinds when useful and most of us are fair shakes at optimizing our PCs to do what we want them to do in addition to having quite a bit of system knowledge in general when it comes to beasties... As well as having the occasional mundane tricks to counter things like invisibility and the like. We know what a 10 foot pole is and how to use it effectively. Our caster players are extremely efficient when it comes to their spells and 'blasting' is almost ignored for the most part when it's just easier to render our foes debilitated and let melee clean up

In 'perfect storm' scenarios, we have a massive Alpha-strike potential but that should just be expected at this point given the title of this thread...

Generally, so far things set out to hamper us are met with a bit of grumbling as we just fall back to plan B or C or D or make up plan E with what we have and then refine it for later use. Several of us have various abilities or spells that purge the more nasty effects or suppress them until they are no longer a threat (Protection from Evil, I'm looking at you, you glorious bastard). Currently, the worst part about any battle is that monsters that shouldn't be able to fit through human-sized doors are in early every room and thus the doors make choke-points... Which just makes battles drag on for ages.

Debilitation is a good plan but that might walk the line of reducing a PC to utter uselessness for a battle or just make a forgone conclusion (The monster dying) that much slower. Plus... We as players are just as eager, if not moreso, to reduce a critter into a blind, deaf, crippled husk that we can then poke at until it dies.

Personally, at least, I would suggest more enemies rather than singular large foes if you want to properly challenge us because we win out based on action economy alone (More turns and all) with that. It would at least be more fun if we all had something to focus on rather than ganging up on the critter of the day with extreme prejudice.