Wizard 20 vs 100 Wizard 15s.

[Thealtruistorc]

Now, I know that we've all gone through the exercise of questioning whether a real-life army could defeat a wizard, and we've all determined that the wizard wins against the nonmagical militia every time.

However, how would a wizard fair against a militia of fellow, albeit weaker, wizards?

Suppose that our theoretical Wizard 20 were to irk a group of wizards who are all lower-levelled (15 each) but have a total of 100 casters in their force. What happens when they all start coming after the big wizard?

[Fable Wright]

So, literally the only difference between the two forces is that one has ninth level spells and the other has 100 times the spell slots?

Ninth level spells add a lot, most certainly, but hundreds of level 8 spell slots will overwhelm them. Exponentially so if all of the Wizard 15s have builds specced for different things. In short, what happens is the 20th level wizard is given the choice to stay in his demiplane or get ganked, hard, the moment he does anything that pisses off the militia.

[Big Fau]

So, literally the only difference between the two forces is that one has ninth level spells and the other has 100 times the spell slots?

Ninth level spells add a lot, most certainly, but hundreds of level 8 spell slots will overwhelm them. Exponentially so if all of the Wizard 15s have builds specced for different things. In short, what happens is the 20th level wizard is given the choice to stay in his demiplane or get ganked, hard, the moment he does anything that pisses off the militia.

Adding to this: Unless the Wizard 20 wants to utilize Time Top to Scry and Fry a small group of the 200 1/day, there's no feasible means for the Wizard to fight that many enemies with that much WBL.

Now, if they are fought in groups of about 2-10 at a time, that's tilted more in the Wizard 20's favor.

[AvatarVecna]

So, literally the only difference between the two forces is that one has ninth level spells and the other has 100 times the spell slots?

Ninth level spells add a lot, most certainly, but hundreds of level 8 spell slots will overwhelm them. Exponentially so if all of the Wizard 15s have builds specced for different things. In short, what happens is the 20th level wizard is given the choice to stay in his demiplane or get ganked, hard, the moment he does anything that pisses off the militia.

To be totally fair, the wizard is capable of asventuring wothout leaving his demiplane, although he'll need to dedicate his contingency to making sure that nobody ganks his silver cord. It might take awhile for him to win that way, since he'd probably have to slowly whittle down the army, but sonce they can't really get to him, it's gonna be difficult for them to beat him.

Now if the Wizard 20 is not adventuring from his private demiplane via Aatral Projection, and is just using powerful tqctics rather than cheap tactics, the fight can actually be debated.

[Extra Anchovies]

Foresight means the Wizard 20 knows when they're about to be attacked, and Genesis gives them a personal fast-time plane to go to, at which point it's game over for the Wizard 15s. Even without fast-time-plane shenanigans, Time Stop, Mind Blank, and Greater Teleport gives them a chance to get away and make the right preparations.

[NNescio]

So, literally the only difference between the two forces is that one has ninth level spells and the other has 100 times the spell slots?

Ninth level spells add a lot, most certainly, but hundreds of level 8 spell slots will overwhelm them. Exponentially so if all of the Wizard 15s have builds specced for different things. In short, what happens is the 20th level wizard is given the choice to stay in his demiplane or get ganked, hard, the moment he does anything that pisses off the militia.

Chain-gate Solars?

I imagine if WBL is on the table, the Level 15s can also abuse chain-gate shenanigans, but the Level 20 can use the Solars to fuel Epic Spellcasting.

[Jormengand]

With high enough optimisation levels, the whole battle becomes a high-end game of whoever makes the first big mistake gets fried, and this is true at wizard levels (or really, any class levels) far lower than 15. Each wizard can have tons of crafted contingent spells, can mess around with BoVD sacrifices and get tons of items of more wishes, and so forth; this incidentally allows them to duplicate any 8th-level or below spell or just get a scroll of any 9th-level spell. At some point, this just becomes the kind of ridiculous semi-psychological semi-proxy warfare that is emblematic of high-level high-optimisation play, with gated creatures and ice assassins running the show.

[legomaster00156]

It's a fascinating game: the only winning move is not to play. (A.k.a. stay in your fast-time demiplane and wait until your enemies die of old age.)

[Extra Anchovies]

It's a fascinating game: the only winning move is not to play. (A.k.a. stay in your fast-time demiplane and wait until your enemies die of old age.)

Wouldn't you want a slow-time plane for that? Plane Shift there, wait a round, Plane Shift back, and your enemies are all six feet under.

[Crake]

Couldn't the wizard 20 just make a bunch of ice assassins of each of his enemies? Then it becomes 1 level 20 and 100 level 15 wizards vs 100 level 15 wizards. I know who I'd put my money on.

[Big Fau]

Couldn't the wizard 20 just make a bunch of ice assassins of each of his enemies? Then it becomes 1 level 20 and 100 level 15 wizards vs 100 level 15 wizards. I know who I'd put my money on.

Ice Assassin has an annoying 5,000xp cost. Casting it 100 times is impractical at best.

[AvatarVecna]

Ice Assassin has an annoying 5,000xp cost. Casting it 100 times is impractical at best.

Using multiple, nested Thought Bottles makes that 5000xp cost easier to deal with.

[Xar Zarath]

First off, would the level 15 Wizards all work together? I mean, they are Wizards so I suppose some of them can be coerced/bribed/influenced to take on the Wizard 20 side. If they do work together then ok...but if they don't...

What stops a fellow level 15 from killing many if not all of his fellow 15 so that he can level to 20 and presumably take on the level 20? Unless the level 20 decided to mindrape a few then kill or drain many of them out of their xp (quietly of course, subterfuge is required for so many) and keeping them as xp batteries?

[Beheld]

The biggest problem is that you can literally just Planar Bind one Genie, wish for an item of infinite wishes, and then wish for scrolls of anything else you want. So there is no spell level difference.

If you declare "Alternative Universe, No Magic Items are allowed to exist at any point and Genies can't wish." then you can actually say anything at all about the game, and what you can say is this:

1) Gate allows you to effectively no save kill anyone, even if they are on another plane, unless they can't be moved.

2) Even in places you can't be moved, arguably Wish can move you (Local Conditions).

So while the level 20 Wizard can chill in his demiplane forever, and can never be moved out, the level 15s can be moved out of their's by Wishing them to a different place, then Gateing them to where the Wizard 20 is to be murdered. That should result in a victory for the level 20.

[Crake]

Using multiple, nested Thought Bottles makes that 5000xp cost easier to deal with.

Pretty much this. Either that or use all the ambrosia/agony from your pleasure/pain farm to just make scrolls at no xp cost. If you're level 20 and still worrying about xp costs, then you're doing it wrong. In that same vein, you can make scrolls of wish to create whatever material components you may need, so it becomes a 0 cost endeavour in it's entirety, requiring only time, which, in your personal fast time demi plane, means very little.

[Aharon]

So we don't run into Schroedinger's Wizard problem, why not use a definite build?

My proposition would be this build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3763.msg119987#msg119987), minus five levels for the 100 wizard 15s.

Here it is copied for ease of use. Credit goes to PhaedrusXY over at BG/Minmaxboards

Grey elf diviner 20

Ability Scores (32 PB)
Str 6
Dex 20 (16+4enh) (6 pts)
Con 16 (12+4enh)(6 pts)
Int 36 (20+5level+5inh+6enh)(16 pts)
Wis 8
Cha 12 (4 pts)

Feat progression
1st level : Spell Mastery (retrain this every other level to include better spells)
Wizard 1 : Scribe Scroll
3rd level : Improved Initiative
5th: Spontaneous Divination (if it lets you cast spells from other class lists)
6th level : Insightful Divination
9th level : Uncanny Forethought
12th level: Improved Familiar (Pseudodragon or Imp, or anything else with Telepathy)
15th level: Quicken Spell
18th level: Quick Recovery

The mage maxes out his UMD ranks (cross class), and the pseudodragon wears a Circlet of Persuasion, a MW UMD tool, and a +6 Charisma item, giving it a +19 UMD check (11 ranks +3 cha +3 comp +2 circ).


Alternative build:
Grey elven diviner 10/Loremaster 10

1st level : Spell Mastery (retrain this every other level to include better spells)
Wizard 1 : Scribe Scroll
3rd level : Skill Focus: Knowledge (Planes)
5th: Spontaneous Divination
6th level : Insightful Divination
9th level : Uncanny Forethought
10: Quicken Spell
12th level: Improved Familiar (Imp)
15th level: Item Familiar
18th level: Quick Recovery

Loremaster: Applicable Knowledge (Improved Initiative), max UMD ranks, other stuff
Items:
16000 lb steel cone with shrink item to make it a Hat (weighs 4 lbs shrunk, is 4 inches thick unshrunk, 120 points of damage to break through it, hardness 10)
Greater Metamagic rod of Extend 24500
Rainbow falls magical location (1xday triple duration of Transmutation spell) 2000
Ring of Arcane Might and Ring of Darkhidden 22000
Ring of Spellbattle and Nine Lives 57000
ring of greater counterspells (Mordenkainen's disjunction) 16000
hand of glory 8000
Chronocharm of the Uncaring Archmage (500 gp, 1xday cast full round spell as a std action)
+1 heartening mithril buckler with Soulfire 27000
Greater MM Rod of Maximize 121500
Bag of Holding, Type 2, 5000
Wand of Dimension Door (10 charges, familiar carries this) 900
Circlet of Persuasion (on familiar) 4500
MW UMD tool (on familiar) 50
Cloak of Charisma +6 (on familiar) 36000
bracers of armor +1 with Heavy Fortification and Dexterity +4 52000
mantle of second chances 12000
belt of battle and constitution +4 28000
a +1 eager warning shuriken (320 gp, adds +7 to initiative)
Headband of Conscious Effort and Intellect +6 38000
rod of absorption 50000
Tiny staff containing Discern Location, and Shapechange (10 charges, familiar has this) 31950
Tome of Intellect +5 137500
Scrolls of Revenance and Revivify 2825
Blessed Book 12500
Scroll of Death Knell (uses one per day) 150
Karma Bead 10000
Thought Bottle 20000

756195 total spent, not including weapon, or onyx and other spell components.


The standard spells prepared:
(All day CL 22, and 27 for long duration buffs. The version with the demiplane has an all day CL of 32.)

1: Nerveskitter
2: Invisibility, Glitterdust, Craft Magic Tatoo (only needs to recast this occasionally for the +1 CL boost)
3: Wind Wall
4: Celerity x2, Greater Invisibility, Anticipate Teleportation
5: Overland Flight, Greater Blink
6: Energy Immunity x 2, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Anticipate Teleport, [Alternatives: Assay Resistance]
7: Forcecage, Limited Wish
8: Superior Invisibility, Mindblank
9: Timestop, Gate, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Shapechange

Divinations often prepared in specialist slots (can spontaneously cast any, though):
1: True Strike
2: Detect Thoughts
3: Clairvoyance
4: Detect Scrying
5: Prying Eyes
6: True Seeing
7: Greater Scrying
8: Moment of Prescience
9: Foresight

Once a week: He casts several Contact Other Plane spells, which will be used to determine what enemies he will face, and how to customize his prepared spells for the coming week to defeat them. Examples of the questions he asks:
1) What is the first name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Bob)
2) What is the last name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Smith)
3) What is Bob Smith's biggest vulnerability?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me?
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me?
6) What day will I face Bob Smith on?
7-12) repeat 1-6 for the second biggest threat of the week.

Continue this line of questioning until no further threats are discovered.

Then ask things like "Other than the threats I've uncovered today using Contact Other Plane, are there any other defensive measures that will be critical to my survival this week?"
If answer is "yes", then "What is the most important of these defensive measures?" and "What day should I take this defensive measure on?" "At what time should I take this defensive measure?" (Repeat for 2nd most important defensive measure, and also for offensive measures)

I'm sure there are other equally useful questions that a 20th level mage with near deific intelligence could come up with...


Buffs: Permanent Arcane Sight and See Invisible. Shapechange (shared with familiar)(with Rainbow Falls and one use of his Metamagic Rod of Extend, this lasts more than 24 hrs), Moment of Prescience (shared with familiar), Contingency on wizard (if ever unable to act for any reason, Plane Shift to the Astral), Foresight (on familiar, as personal spell), Mindblank (on wizard), Contingency on familiar (if master's contingency is activated, Plane Shift to the Astral. Then familiar will find his master using its staff and take him to safety, if necessary.)

Wizard normally is in the form of a minotaur for the Cunning ability (a dire tortoise could work, too). He has a +4 Dex item and Nerveskitter, making his Initiative check +21 (or +46 if you add Foresight to this). He also has Celerity and isn't afraid to use it (thanks to Quick Recovery). The familiar has a wand of Dimension Door and can ready actions to teleport himself and the wizard away from threats, when needed. The pseudodragon has retrained its Altertness feat to Mindsight (or the mage paid for a Psychic Reformation, etc). By Shapechanging the pseudodragon into a Formian Queen, the familiar can have 50 mile "radar".

Against things that aren't really threats, he just lets his familiar Shapechange into something and take care of them (often a beholder). He also uses shapechange to access Teleport (Archons) and Plane Shift (Beblith), and if he feels like it he can always be traveling around as an Astral Projection (Nightmare). Against things that actually seem threatening, here is one possible strategy:

Wizard casts Forcecage on enemy (and cohort, if any)(std action), then his familiar Shapechanges into a beholder (free action, Shapechange already going), and it aims its AMF eye on the enemy and cohort (free action). Then the wizard opens a Gate to a pool of lava 20+ feet above the Forcecage, pointing down (std action, but there's no rush at this point).

If things are really nasty looking, he can use Celerity to cast a Maximized (Greater Rod) Time Stop.

Another nasty trick is Disjunction (to get rid of any Mind Blank) followed by Limited Wish (Geas). It's basically a save-or-die, without the save.

At a minimum, he has a Clone hidden away.
The hidden lair is below the dirt floor of a small cave in the middle of nowhere, but the chamber itself has no entrances at all to the surface. Inside the sanctum, there is a Permanent Alarm spell on the area around the clone. The entire area also has Forbiddance and a permanent Private Sanctum cast inside it.

There is a small underground cubbyhole (fits 1 tiny creature) that acts as an entry chamber. It has no permanent connections to the surface, but it is possible to stab or dig a hole down to it from the cave floor above the hidden chamber, if you know where it is. A tiny or smaller creature could then enter the main chamber via a tiny lead door. The cubbyhole itself is not included in the Forbiddance or Private Sanctum effects.

There is an awakened red dragon zombie there as a guardian (haven't made stats up. It just stays there to guard the clone). About every month and a half, he returns there to cast an Extended Gentle Repose on the Clone via Limited Wish.


At worst, he uses Genesis to create his own custom plane of existence as a "lair", and never leaves it. He sends minions to do his dirty work, or his own Astral Projection. (Warning: Extreme brokenation ahead)
He hatched his familiar here, so it is a native of this plane. By casting a Planar Bubble on it, he can have all the benefits of home wherever he is. The plane has the Timeless trait, and creatures there do not need to eat, sleep, or breath and do not age. Time spent there does not reduce their lifespan, even if they later leave the demiplane.

The plane to automatically applies any metamagic feats he wants to his spells for free (precedent is the the auto-quicken of the Astral Plane, and the fact that he can set the traits of his demiplane). He could also have the limited magic trait applied to Abjuration, which would mean he never has to worry about being Dispelled or Disjoined again, but that would also prevent him from casting abjurations while inside his familiar's Planar Bubble, and is probably unnecessary. This means that he doesn't need any of the Metamagic Rods listed in the equipment section, saving him a ton of cash for other stuff.

Using a more liberal interpretation of the spell, he could manipulate the Time trait, so that (for example) 10 rounds pass for every 1 round that passes on the Material Plane (or 1 year for every round...).

The entire plane (all 180 feet of it) has the same protections as the lair described above. The Forbiddance was cast by the similacrum described below after the wizard and his familiar used Astral Projection to leave the plane. This is assumed to already have happened long ago by the time the contestant is trying to kill the wizard.

Instead of a zombie dragon, the mage has a similacrum of a 72 HD Elder Titan. The similacrum has 36 HD and casts as a 29th level cleric with the Magic and Knowledge domains. It knows three epic spells, and has the Epic Spellcasting, Ignore Material Components, and Craft Contingent Spell feats, as well as many extremely useful SLAs (like Astral Projection and Contact Other Plane, both 3xday). This similacrum can be contacted by the mage via Sending. If the mage ever decides to return from his astral travels, he can contact the similacrum and tell it to Dispel the Forbiddance (it cast it). Otherwise no one can ever enter or leave the demiplane, including the mage himself. The similacrum also has been commanded to use Revanance and/or Revivify if the mage or his familiar is ever killed (by having his silver cord severed, etc).

The mage boosted his caster level above 36 to Gate this elder titan by using Death Knell, the Magic Tattoo spell, his ring, the karma bead, and emulating Consumptive Field via Limited Wish (total CL 37). Against very tough targets, he may take an Astral Projection of the similacrum with him as well, leaving a Contingent Revivify on his body.

Obviously, this is not TO or Tippyverse-OP, but still very high PO, so a useful start for this discussion.

[Jormengand]

I think the main problem is that it depends on the optimisation level involved, and what's realistic for the characters in question. If wizard were keyed to charisma, then we would expect them to have about 10 intelligence, which is about normal human competence level. But it's not; it's keyed to intelligence, meaning that every one of those wizards is, entirely in character, more intelligent than any human being who has ever graced the planet, by an obscene margin. This means that each wizard probably uses TO tricks that would send Tippy's head into a spin, or at the very least scrambles to perform the infinite action trick* as fast as possible. At this point, if the wizards suddenly spontaneously come into existence, it's a race; if not, then whoever came first wins. At lower optimisation, the wizard 20 is toast. At high practical optimisation, he probably wins. At the actual level of optimisation we should expect from someone whose intelligence is over three times as much better than average as the highest intelligence of any human ever to live, it's a toss-up, but with 100 chances against 1.

Use energy transformation field (or duplicate with a wish, possibly from BoVD sacrifice rules) keyed to greater celerity, polymorph into or obtain control of a garbler, stand in the ETF and get the garbler to voluntarily add ∞ to its truespeak DC, and therefore add ∞ to the effective spell level of its utterance, but it automatically passes truespeak checks, so it casts a level-∞ utterance into the ETF, which then casts ∞ greater celerities onto you. You need daze immunity or a way to act while dazed.

[Vogonjeltz]

Now, I know that we've all gone through the exercise of questioning whether a real-life army could defeat a wizard, and we've all determined that the wizard wins against the nonmagical militia every time.

However, how would a wizard fair against a militia of fellow, albeit weaker, wizards?

Suppose that our theoretical Wizard 20 were to irk a group of wizards who are all lower-levelled (15 each) but have a total of 100 casters in their force. What happens when they all start coming after the big wizard?

100 Wizards would easily win via spell slot attrition...or just casting Finger of Death repeatedly, at least 5 of the Wizard's save rolls will come up as a 1, which is instant failure and instant death.

Technically 20 Wizards should have at least 1 failure by the target.

[Flickerdart]

The issue with this challenge is that even level 1 wizards can have 9th level spells, if your cheese-fu is good enough. How much cheese are we bringing to this fondue party?

[Crake]

The issue with this challenge is that even level 1 wizards can have 9th level spells, if your cheese-fu is good enough. How much cheese are we bringing to this fondue party?

I think clearly the intention is 1 caster with 9th level spells vs 100 casters with 8th level spells.