Need help with polymorph NOW!

[Klorox]

I have a level 7 wizard, polymorph is my last spell.

We're fighting a vampire in a 10' wide hallway.

What's the best thing I can change in to to kick his ass?

QUICK!

[Corran]

Polymorph an ally who is on low hp into a 7CR beast (afb, but I think the giant ape is a good choice). And try not to get hit, so that you wont be forced to make concentration checks.

[NNescio]

I have a level 7 wizard, polymorph is my last spell.

We're fighting a vampire in a 10' wide hallway.

What's the best thing I can change in to to kick his ass?

QUICK!

As above, polymorph another party member (preferably a non-caster, but priority should be given to those at low HP) into a CR 7 Giant Ape to stall for time or force the vampire to retreat. You'll just have to deal with squeezing rules then (eating disadvantage on attack rolls and Dex saves, halved movement, and enemy attacks have advantage). Preferably, you want the Giant Ape to grapple the vampire to force him to waste his actions to escape (via shapechanging). As a bonus, the vampire can't counter-grapple the ape, since it's two sizes smaller, so it can only deal puny damage with its normal attacks to the ape, and it can't charm the ape either, since it counts as a beast but a non-humanoid.

(The main danger is the vamprie Charming you and persuading you to end the spell, so try to stay out of 30 ft range from him.)

Large-sized beasts have much lower CRs and wouldn't last against a vampire. Giant Scorpion is the one with the highest CR (CR 3), and it can grapple on hit, and potentially deal decent damage via poison (which the undead vampire is oddly not immune or resistant to). The Giant Scorpion has far less HP though and is vulnerable to getting counter-grappled itself by the vampire, allowing the latter to bite (for more damage) and regain HP.

Don't polymorph yourself, you're just setting up yourself to lose concentration on the spell, especially since you can't benefit from any class features or feats (e.g. War Caster) to maintain your concentration.

In any case, Polymorph isn't really going to help much in this case beyond slowing down the vampire a bit or forcing him to retreat, because of the cramped spaces. You can't Polymorph the vampire either since he's a Shapechanger and is immune.

[NecroDancer]

T-Rex, if you can't do that then become a great ape, if you can't do that than become a triceratops.

[hymer]

T-Rex, if you can't do that then become a great ape, if you can't do that than become a triceratops.

Those three are all Huge, though. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a CR 4+ Beast that isn't too big to fight comfortably in a 10' space.

[NNescio]

Those three are all Huge, though. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a CR 4+ Beast that isn't too big to fight comfortably in a 10' space.

Just grapple (preferably with the Giant Ape) since it isn't penalized by squeezing.

Come to think of it, do grapple riders on attacks suffer from the same size limitations as the grapple special melee attack made by substituting any one attack while taking the Attack action? This is kinda important since the Vampire can't really do damage if he can't grapple (or incap/restrain) his target. Per RAW, the size limitation PHB 195 appears to only apply to grapples made via the substituting an attack made using the Attack action, and not to grapple rider effects. I don't have my MM with me, so maybe there's some other rule there?

[hymer]

Just grapple (preferably with the Giant Ape) since it isn't penalized by squeezing.

Come to think of it, do grapple riders on attacks suffer from the same size limitations as the grapple special melee attack made by substituting any one attack while taking the Attack action? This is kinda important since the Vampire can't really do damage if he can't grapple (or incap/restrain) his target. Per RAW, the size limitation PHB 195 appears to only apply to grapples made via the substituting an attack made using the Attack action, and not to grapple rider effects. I don't have my MM with me, so maybe there's some other rule there?

What's so great about grappling the Vampire? Worried s/he'll run away before s/he turns misty? :smallwink:

Not looking up, but I'll go out on a limb: Grappling is grappling, so it won't work beyond the size constraints.
But most of those riders aren't grappling, but Restraining, which is much better. If there's a size limit, it'll be noted at the individual attack.

[NNescio]

What's so great about grappling the Vampire? Worried s/he'll run away before s/he turns misty? :smallwink:

Well, it forces him to waste an action to retreat, or two actions if he decides to turn into mist and back again. Alternatively, Mr. Vampy can risk an action to try breaking the grapple instead. Plus well, grappling doesn't suffer from disadvantage while grappling. In any case direct combat isn't really a viable option due to the disadvantage while squeezing, unless he goes for lower CR forms which are too fragile. So yeah, just tie down the vampy a little to protect the other party members.

At which point the party should run like hell because it's an over-CRed encounter and Polymorph can't do much in this combat other than slowing the vampy down (as I mentioned earlier).

That said, this is 5e, not 3.X or older. The Wizard should have other prepared spells that he can use with the 4th level spell slot (including 3rd levels and below). Just target the Vamp with some Wis save-or-suck instead, or just go with a direct damage spell if the other party members can nova as well.


What's so great about grappling the Vampire? Worried s/he'll run away before s/he turns misty? :smallwink:

Not looking up, but I'll go out on a limb: Grappling is grappling, so it won't work beyond the size constraints.
But most of those riders aren't grappling, but Restraining, which is much better. If there's a size limit, it'll be noted at the individual attack.

True, but both the Giant Scorpion and Vampire (the two relevant ones) can only grapple on hit, not restrain.

[hymer]

But once grappled, what's preventing Vampy from just having the grappler for supper, with a decent chance to break Concentration? Wouldn't s/he want to do that anyway?
Depending on how the sticky hp reduction is ruled, BTW, the wizard could be in real trouble and die the moment the polymorph drops. :smalleek:


True, but both the Giant Scorpion and Vampire (the two relevant ones) can only grapple on hit, not restrain.
Giant Scorpions are Large IIRC, so they should both be able to grapple the other in this particular instance.

[NNescio]

But once grappled, what's preventing Vampy from just having the grappler for supper, with a decent chance to break Concentration? Wouldn't s/he want to do that anyway?
Depending on how the sticky hp reduction is ruled, BTW, the wizard could be in real trouble and die the moment the polymorph drops. :smalleek:

That's why you polymorph an ally, not yourself. As I mentioned earlier, Polymorph kinda sucks as a personal buff anyway, since the caster is just asking for his concentration to be broken, and he doesn't get to benefit from any feats or class features because his entire stat block is replaced.

Grappling the Vampy as a Huge Beast pretty much shuts him down for one turn (assuming the Vampy grapple on hit doesn't work on creatures two sizes larger than it) because he can only multiattack for two puny unarmed strikes, and he can't use Bite since he can't grapple (or restrain/incap) the Huge Beast. Charm also doesn't work on it, because it no longer counts as humanoid. Sure, the vampire can freely turn into mist and reengage the party an hour later, but really, Polymorph can't do much against a vampire anyway in a cramped space, so this is the best option the Wizard gets.


Giant Scorpions are Large IIRC, so they should both be able to grapple the other in this particular instance.

Giant Scorpion's grapple on hit only has a measly Escape DC of 12. True, he can attack twice, but so can the vampire (at Escape DC 18 with an identical attack bonus, so the Giant Scorpion is not gonna get away). Once the scorpion is grappled by the vampire (remember, it's only one size larger), it's blood ichor-sucking time for the the vampire and the Giant Scorpion is screwed.

Also the CR3 Giant Scorpion is squishy for a Level 7 party (and compared to the CR 13 vampire) , with only 52 HP. Giant Ape meanwhile has more than three times that amount.

[Dalebert]

My druid wild-shaped into a giant scorpion to grapple two vampire spawn and drag them into sunlight. Obviously the conditions were idea having sunlight nearby and that will probably be rare. Still, a vamp or spawn has to grapple you first and then bite so often they will just attack hoping to end the shapeshift effect knowing that damage does this for both polymorph and wildshape. I believe that's what happened in my case. They opted for doing damage to turn me back. Problem was I could spend spell slots to heal myself and bought more time.