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talse
2007-07-06, 07:44 PM
So I'm wondering about having a character team up with another PC to make a fall back position fortified by woods and such. The construction of this facility would use most of the abilities available to a druid and I figured the druid would likely learn in the process of making. Is there any mechanic for determining the EXP gained from such an endeavor?

What other methods of non-murder EXP acquisition exist as well? I know about overcoming traps, but i'm no rouge.

Cybren
2007-07-06, 07:46 PM
XP is from "defeating encounters". Even if that encounter involves other people (and it needn't), killing them isn't the only way to finish them. Bypassing them altogether, convincing them not to fight, or any number of things counts.

Neek
2007-07-06, 07:53 PM
So I'm wondering about having a character team up with another PC to make a fall back position fortified by woods and such. The construction of this facility would use most of the abilities available to a druid and I figured the druid would likely learn in the process of making. Is there any mechanic for determining the EXP gained from such an endeavor?

What other methods of non-murder EXP acquisition exist as well? I know about overcoming traps, but i'm no rouge.

You mean rogue, don't you?

Any encounter should have an CR on it. Overcoming the encounter is what gives the experience. Your DM should go ahead and determine what CR making a fortification is, depending on how much effort you put into it and how many obstacles you overcome.

talse
2007-07-06, 08:23 PM
You mean rogue, don't you?

Damn you, Sonic Adventure 2!

I'll talk to him about it.

nooblade
2007-07-06, 08:37 PM
Does the PC's EL increase when situational factors favor them? They might get less xp if there's a big fort for them that way. Xp calculated for constructing it might just have to counterbalance this, though I'd say that gaining xp without having to worry too much about defense is worth a chunk of xp in itself. A party could go on for at least twice as long if conditions favor them like with a "fort".

talse
2007-07-06, 10:00 PM
Well i was thinking the fort would be a place to regroup to after they were defeated. like the order of the stick might go there after azure city falls. it would also be where our artificer would do his crafting stuff and my druid could grow things.

Matthew
2007-07-06, 10:16 PM
Your DM may or may not provide Story Based Experience Points. Ask him about it. There are guidelines, but no solid mechanics.

Turcano
2007-07-07, 01:01 AM
Your DM may or may not provide Story Based Experience Points. Ask him about it. There are guidelines, but no solid mechanics.

Some games do; for instance, the now-defunct A Game of Thrones d20 allocated XP for each story arc, where a certain amount (25 XP for a overwhelming failure to 200 for an overwhelming success) multiplied by the party's average character level to each party member, with similar payouts for achieving personal goals and whatnot. Of course, this particular system de-emphasized combat quite a bit, both by emphasizing political intrigue and by making combat much more dangerous than in D&D.

Emperor Tippy
2007-07-07, 01:11 AM
Some games do; for instance, the now-defunct A Game of Thrones d20 allocated XP for each story arc, where a certain amount (25 XP for a overwhelming failure to 200 for an overwhelming success) multiplied by the party's average character level to each party member, with similar payouts for achieving personal goals and whatnot. Of course, this particular system de-emphasized combat quite a bit, both by emphasizing political intrigue and by making combat much more dangerous than in D&D.

They made a d20 game for a A song of Ice and Fire?

Dhavaer
2007-07-07, 01:16 AM
d20 Modern has CRs for critical skill checks.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-07-07, 01:55 AM
A fundamental flaw in assigning a CR to constructing this sort of fortification is that the system is based on risk, most specifically risk of bodily harm, or death, therefore in a system predicated on such an assumption no amount of building fortifications provides that sort of challenge to a character.

This is the concept that says a 16th level character taking a year off to hunt down and murder 1 HD orcs with no class levels one at a time, won't gain any experience, since he didn't take an substantive risks.

The only way to arrive at a consistant methodology for awarding experience for this type of relatively safe activity you need to modify or discard the core assumption of the CR based XP system.

horseboy
2007-07-07, 02:12 AM
So I'm wondering about having a character team up with another PC to make a fall back position fortified by woods and such. The construction of this facility would use most of the abilities available to a druid and I figured the druid would likely learn in the process of making. Is there any mechanic for determining the EXP gained from such an endeavor?

What other methods of non-murder EXP acquisition exist as well? I know about overcoming traps, but i'm no rouge.

Given that whole "players should receive xp unless they kill things" line in the DMG, you're going to need to talk to your DM and see if he's willing to work twords the spirit of the rules instead of the writings of the words.

LotharBot
2007-07-07, 02:23 AM
CR ... is based on risk, most specifically risk of bodily harm, or death

CR is based on several things, including risk of failure (not necessarily death) and use of resources. Page 40 of the DMG talks about assigning CR's to non-combat situations, and mentions "a roleplaying encounter should only be considered a challenge at all if there's some risk involved and success or failure really matters."

So, in the case of creating this fortress, it could be assigned a CR, depending on how the DM sets up the challenge. If there's a chance of failure and the player manages to role-play the encounter well, he deserves XP for it. Maybe not a lot, but some. If, on the other hand, the player just says "well, we spent X gold and built a fortress" that's not worth XP.

Roderick_BR
2007-07-07, 02:42 AM
The DM can count the whole process as a mission, and award XP accordingly. He just need to set a CR, and calculate the results.

Turcano
2007-07-07, 02:58 AM
They made a d20 game for a A song of Ice and Fire?

Yes, but the company tanked right after, and it's no longer officially supported (duh). I think White Wolf owns the rights now.

Matthew
2007-07-07, 05:48 AM
Some games do; for instance, the now-defunct A Game of Thrones d20 allocated XP for each story arc, where a certain amount (25 XP for a overwhelming failure to 200 for an overwhelming success) multiplied by the party's average character level to each party member, with similar payouts for achieving personal goals and whatnot. Of course, this particular system de-emphasized combat quite a bit, both by emphasizing political intrigue and by making combat much more dangerous than in D&D.
Sure, but we're talking about D&D here, aren't we?

Elana
2007-07-07, 06:44 AM
The current edition grants XP for overcoming challenges.

Those challenges can come in various shapes not all of them needing to have anything to do with adventurers.

(You can bet that all those commoners of more than level 1, didn't get those by having a side career as adventurers)

For your case of building a fortress.

You have to think about things like, are there any time constraints.
Does what he does there have any impact or is he just unskilled labor
etc.

Now if his rolls really do count and there is some risk involved.
(You have to finish it within a week or the advancing orc horde can slaughter us all. Or maybe just or we won't get paid and will starve)

If there is a risk involved how big is it? If his life is threatened it should be around his own level.
If it is merely inconvenient maybe half his level.
Now if it is just danger of losing your job as a constructor CR 1 sounds good.
(Unless he is a filthy rich adventurer who didn't need the job in the first place)


But if they have all the time in the world so they can take 20s on all construction related skill rolls, there is no XP in sight.

Turcano
2007-07-07, 03:51 PM
Sure, but we're talking about D&D here, aren't we?

Yes, but that doesn't preclude people from using rules from other d20 games if it suits the campaign, does it?

bosssmiley
2007-07-08, 06:26 AM
They made a d20 game for a A song of Ice and Fire?

Yep, and according to George R.R. Martin in Dragon #357 there's a new version (either revised, or by a different publisher) due sometime next year.
"Game of Thrones: D&D for the thinker in you."

Funny thing though; I know they're supposed to be the stuff of life to thoughtful gamers, but I simply cannot get into the "Song of Fire and Ice" books. Probably just not in the right headspace atm. :smallfrown:

re: building the forest fort. Isn't having the thing its' own reward? XP in D&D is gained on testing yourself against the world in hazardous situations, not through building the best treehouse. :smallwink:

As for RP XP. We have a standard policy of 50 x char level XP for something that gets a "Wow!", or spontaneous applause, or cheers from the other players at the table.

kpenguin
2007-07-08, 06:28 AM
I don't think there's any mechanic, but you could always have RP experience assigned. RP exp is the best kind there is.

Beleriphon
2007-07-08, 11:51 AM
They made a d20 game for a A song of Ice and Fire?

Green Ronin publishing is doing so, the same people that make Mutants and Masterminds. At this point nobody is quite sure what system it will use.

Edit: Links away.

http://greenronin.com/2007/04/a_song_of_ice_and_fire_rpg.php

Matthew
2007-07-09, 09:12 PM
Yes, but that doesn't preclude people from using rules from other d20 games if it suits the campaign, does it?
Indeed, not, but what I cannot work out is why you're quoting me when bringing it up. To judge by the post, he's playing D&D. There are no fixed rules in D&D for covering this, which is all I said.

Runolfr
2007-07-10, 09:06 AM
So I'm wondering about having a character team up with another PC to make a fall back position fortified by woods and such. The construction of this facility would use most of the abilities available to a druid and I figured the druid would likely learn in the process of making. Is there any mechanic for determining the EXP gained from such an endeavor?

If the fortified position effectively prevents pursuing monsters from attacking the party when they reach it, then it has effectively defeated those monsters, and the party gets XP for the victory.

Townopolis
2007-07-10, 10:27 AM
If the fortified position effectively prevents pursuing monsters from attacking the party when they reach it, then it has effectively defeated those monsters, and the party gets XP for the victory.

Seconded.

Basically, the fort is an investment that will yield both longevity and XP in the future. When you are being pursued by an orcish horde that you couldn't possibly defeat, a fort will give you the necessary high ground (literally) needed to kill them all and get XP for kicking their butts. Not only that, but they won't slaughter the party like dogs in the middle of the road. While the fort could be considered to be a "favorable circumstance" or whatever they're calling it these days, it is also an investment made by the players as they plan and think ahead, and it should be rewarded with lower CR penalties.

(CR penalties being a lowering of the CR of an encounter due to the PCs having an advantage (such as a fort.)

Rasilak
2007-07-10, 12:40 PM
Yep. As a DM I would not lower the CR more than if the players just had the time to prepare and to choose the place of the battle, but did not build any fortifications. After all that was what they started with. So the XP for building the fort are basically (XP for fighting the enemies with some time for preparation)-(XP for fighting the enemies from a fort someone else built)