I think I broke Bladesinger

[Garresh]

Not really. Its still suboptimal, but I came up with a build that seems to play to its strengths on paper, and kind of by accident at that.

The core concept is simple: Bladesinger requires you use a one handed weapon. It does NOT require that weapon to be melee.
So instead if wrestling with all the problems of a melee bladesinger doing crap damage, having crap hp, and generally being crap, go ahead and pick up crossbow mastery and sharpshooter, and run a hand crossbow strategy emphasizing your buff spells.

I stumbled across this while trying to find a way to make an arcane archer, and wizards actually get a lot of spells that synergize perfectly with sharpshooter.

You run around firing off 3 to 4 attacks at level 6(if you haste), or you go for greater invis for 3 attacks with advantage. Or if youre feeling lazy you run Magic Weapon at your highest slot for more accuracy and damage with an hour duration. If you get into a bind, you bladesing to boost your defensive stats and either back away, use a hasted disengage, or just keep firing at point blank since you dont get disadvantage.

Since you have your choice of preferred buff(even flame arrows, though its suboptimal really), you can go ahead and use your spell slots for pure utility, or take a part time job as god wizard.

The only thing that seems recommended is starting with 1 level in fighter for con proficiency and archery style and crossbow proficiency, but technically there are a handful of options to multiclass into it. All you really need is crossbow proficiency.

The one downside is you dont get any use out of your level 14 bladesinger ability, but tbh when weighed against ranged attacks, extra attacks, and sharpshooter damage, the crossbow STILL wins, and is actually less MAD since all these buffs ans utility spells dont actually require high intelligence.

Thoughts?

[DivisibleByZero]

Thoughts?

Dual daggers (or darts) with sharpshooter.
One less feat needed. Same effect. Melee option available for when you want to make use of your level 14 feature.

[shuangwucanada]

It looks right on paper.

Although I would ask DM. If DM says bladesinger's abilities (including extra attack) are INTENDED for melee weapons, then...

If I'm your DM, I will ask you to pick the bladesinger style on SCAG P142. I don't think hand crossbow is on the list.

Also an elf with a crossbow just doesn't sound right. You will need a weird background to make it work. I usually find those background (serving a build) is just painful to role play, or sometimes it ends up no role playing at all. You are just playing a combat board game.

An archer with Magic weapon or Haste is a power build. Bladesinger is indeed the best option for that build (online at level 7 if you dip fighter, compared to valor bard at level 10).

[Garresh]

You cant draw daggers quickly enough to make that work, though tbh it is a really cool idea nonetheless.

Edit: Well Im playing an Eladrin, and in a campaign setting where Eladrin are different enough from elves to be their own thing. Also when I asked my DM I laid out 4 similar builds and requested to do Bladesinger under the title of "Bowsinger" or "Songbow" so its cleared. Backstory actually came mostly before this concept cause I really wanted an arcane archer. But yeah it can be reflavored without too much effort. Its definitely not a traditional bladesinger.

Also. Believe it or not Favored Soul is superior. Metamagic + Bless for a sharpshooter beats magic weapon since it gives more accuracy early, and stacks with actual magic weapons later. Plus it is aoe and low slot. For haste and greater invis quicken lets you act more efficiently rather than wasting a round buffing. And for big fights you can fire off 2-3 arrows and follow up with a fireball or a hold monster spell due to quicken. Really, I dont see wizard or bard beating favored soul sorcerer. Quicken is insane for an arcane archer. I just went wizard for roleplay reasons.

[DivisibleByZero]

You cant draw daggers quickly enough to make that work, though tbh it is a really cool idea nonetheless.

The difference between drawing multiple javelins and drawing multiple arrows might matter, but the difference between drawing multiple daggers/darts or arrows is negliable.
If your DM allowed the bowsinger, he'll almost certainly allow daggers.

[Garresh]

Thats a really good point. Im still running xbow for roleplay reasons, but that build idea is pretty awesome.

[Giant2005]

Warlocks make for better Arcane Archers. Unlike the Bladesinger, their damage bonus applies to ranged weapons as well as melee. In fact, they are the only class in the game that has a class=based damage bonus that is capable of being applied to ranged weapons.

[Garresh]

Thats a goos point, but their selection of buffs seems extremely small. Just hp bonuses really. Hex is nice though.

[Naanomi]

Drow or half-drow can be blade singers; crossbow easily on flavor for them

[PeteNutButter]

I had this build idea as well. Just play a drow for hand crossbow proficiency and pew pew.

[RickAllison]

Note that if you go the daggers route, you run into difficulties with drawing them (can be hand waved by DM) and that Sharpshooter's -5/+10 will not work with them (though they will work with darts!).

[MaxWilson]

Not really. Its still suboptimal, but I came up with a build that seems to play to its strengths on paper, and kind of by accident at that.

The core concept is simple: Bladesinger requires you use a one handed weapon. It does NOT require that weapon to be melee.
So instead if wrestling with all the problems of a melee bladesinger doing crap damage, having crap hp, and generally being crap, go ahead and pick up crossbow mastery and sharpshooter, and run a hand crossbow strategy emphasizing your buff spells. *snip*

The one downside is you dont get any use out of your level 14 bladesinger ability, but tbh when weighed against ranged attacks, extra attacks, and sharpshooter damage, the crossbow STILL wins, and is actually less MAD since all these buffs ans utility spells dont actually require high intelligence.

Thoughts?

Doesn't seem broken to me. Bladesingers are already MAD and feat-hungry, and now you're spending two more feats on top of that to increase your damage to a level that any warrior can easily achieve. You get your extra attack later than a Fighter, you never get a third or fourth attack, your Dex improvement comes five or ten levels later than a fighter's does if it ever comes at all, you don't have Archery style. Your bonus action is already busy between Bladesong and various spells that want to use it (Expeditious Retreat, Flaming Sphere, Animate Objects, Bigby's Hand, etc.) and now you're adding Crossbow Expert on top of that. Your AC will be worse than a Fighter/Wizard or a regular Bladesinger, and there's no way in the world you can afford feats like Warcaster.

So the net effect is that you're boosting your DPR by maybe 30-40% but you're hurting your AC and possibly your spellcasting effectiveness. It's a reasonable tradeoff, but it's not broken, and it's not a build that I personally find tempting.

Edit: if you do start with Fighter 1 for Archery style and Con save proficiency, then you're not getting much out of Bladesinger. You're probably better off AC-wise wearing heavy armor, which means at some point you're going to be asking yourself, "Why am I messing around with this dinky little crossbow anyway? Why didn't I just go Fighter 1/Necromancer X to have twenty times the firepower?"

[Grod_The_Giant]

You cant draw daggers quickly enough to make that work, though tbh it is a really cool idea nonetheless.
Yeah, 5e really doesn't support throwing weapons well, unless you count unconventional stuff. For two daggers/round Dual Wielder will let you get by, but you need three levels of Thief Rogue and a bonus action to do three-- which, of course, almost certainly interferes with whatever you were using to make the third attack.


Also. Believe it or not Favored Soul is superior. Metamagic + Bless for a sharpshooter beats magic weapon since it gives more accuracy early, and stacks with actual magic weapons later. Plus it is aoe and low slot. For haste and greater invis quicken lets you act more efficiently rather than wasting a round buffing. And for big fights you can fire off 2-3 arrows and follow up with a fireball or a hold monster spell due to quicken. Really, I dont see wizard or bard beating favored soul sorcerer. Quicken is insane for an arcane archer. I just went wizard for roleplay reasons.

An archer with Magic weapon or Haste is a power build. Bladesinger is indeed the best option for that build (online at level 7 if you dip fighter, compared to valor bard at level 10).
It's all Valor Bard-- many castings of Swift Quiver via Magical Secrets gives you an easy four attacks/round, or two attacks and a spell of any level. You can also nab Haste, and have Greater Invisibility natively.


Also an elf with a crossbow just doesn't sound right. You will need a weird background to make it work. I usually find those background (serving a build) is just painful to role play, or sometimes it ends up no role playing at all. You are just playing a combat board game.
Drow.

[Mandragola]

Edit: if you do start with Fighter 1 for Archery style and Con save proficiency, then you're not getting much out of Bladesinger. You're probably better off AC-wise wearing heavy armor, which means at some point you're going to be asking yourself, "Why am I messing around with this dinky little crossbow anyway? Why didn't I just go Fighter 1/Necromancer X to have twenty times the firepower?"

This, basically. So many bladesinger builds that I've seen are just worse fighters, and this is much the same. If you're stood there with your hand crossbow and next to you there's a warlock just trowing EB with agonising blast and hex, with only one stat he needs to worry about and no feats, who does more damage? He does.

The point of bladesingers is to have a high AC and concentration save. It's not to actually cut stuff up, except if you're bored or something. Wizards are for casting spells.

[RickAllison]

This, basically. So many bladesinger builds that I've seen are just worse fighters, and this is much the same. If you're stood there with your hand crossbow and next to you there's a warlock just trowing EB with agonising blast and hex, with only one stat he needs to worry about and no feats, who does more damage? He does.

The point of bladesingers is to have a high AC and concentration save. It's not to actually cut stuff up, except if you're bored or something. Wizards are for casting spells.

Exactly. Bladesingers are wizards who can mix it up in melee, that doesn't mean they necessarily should focus on it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Exactly. Bladesingers are wizards who can mix it up in melee, that doesn't mean they necessarily should focus on it.
It's kind of a crap archetype, to be honest. It doesn't do enough to make you specifically good at what it's supposed to do-- mixing melee and magic and dancing around the battlefield. Instead it gets tanky, and you wind up as just a normal wizard with an overpowered defense boost. It should give you something like Cunning Action instead of Int-to-AC, and things like War Magic and Eldritch Strike from the EK instead of Extra Attack and Song of Victory. (And maybe a bit more hit points)

[Citan]

Not really. Its still suboptimal, but I came up with a build that seems to play to its strengths on paper, and kind of by accident at that.

The core concept is simple: Bladesinger requires you use a one handed weapon. It does NOT require that weapon to be melee.
So instead if wrestling with all the problems of a melee bladesinger doing crap damage, having crap hp, and generally being crap, go ahead and pick up crossbow mastery and sharpshooter, and run a hand crossbow strategy emphasizing your buff spells.

Thoughts?
I'm sorry, you are not the first one to think of that. But sure it can be good, although very "original" compared to the usual Bladesinger. But it works by RAW as long as you can get proficiency (if multiclassing was not allowed, you could even use the Weapon proficiency feat. For once it would have some interest XD).

Dual daggers (or darts) with sharpshooter.
One less feat needed. Same effect. Melee option available for when you want to make use of your level 14 feature.
Except that daggers don't fully work with Sharpshooter: you get the first two benefits, but not the -5+10 option.
Thanks for making me notice an oddity though: dagger has the "light" property, but not darts, although darts weight 1/4 of daggers... WTF?
The only explanation I see is that WoTC just wanted to make them different in at least one way, or they just didn't want to encourage "acupuncture-style" fighting (darts dual-wielding), but I find this meaningless, just totally incoherent. Should a player want to dual-wield dagger+dart or 2xdarts, I'd houserule he can without the related feat.

[Degwerks]

It's all Valor Bard-- many castings of Swift Quiver via Magical Secrets gives you an easy four attacks/round, or two attacks and a spell of any level. You can also nab Haste, and have Greater Invisibility natively.


Valor Bard is a decent archer and a pretty good one at 10th level with Swift Quiver. However I think the Favored Soul with Life or War domain trumps it from levels 1 to 9 as an Arcane Archer. Bless or Divine Favor helps a lot, by 3rd level you're rocking Shield & Mirror Image possibly for defense, you have metamagic options now and can throw out a Spiritual Weapon too. At 5th level you just got Haste and maybe Blink for defense, at 6th to 9th you're putting out 1 more arrow/round than the Valor Bard. I'm sure the Favored Soul could take a Valor Bard in an archery duel from 5-9th level easy. Beyond that though I'm not as confident.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Valor Bard is a decent archer and a pretty good one at 10th level with Swift Quiver. However I think the Favored Soul with Life or War domain trumps it from levels 1 to 9 as an Arcane Archer. Bless or Divine Favor helps a lot, by 3rd level you're rocking Shield & Mirror Image possibly for defense, you have metamagic options now and can throw out a Spiritual Weapon too. At 5th level you just got Haste and maybe Blink for defense, at 6th to 9th you're putting out 1 more arrow/round than the Valor Bard. I'm sure the Favored Soul could take a Valor Bard in an archery duel from 5-9th level easy. Beyond that though I'm not as confident.
Favored Soul probably isn't a great point of comparison, though, as it's vastly more powerful than corresponding options.

[Degwerks]

Favored Soul probably isn't a great point of comparison, though, as it's vastly more powerful than corresponding options.

Yeah you're right, I forgot that its UA optional (if your DM is crazy) content.

[MaxWilson]

It's kind of a crap archetype, to be honest. It doesn't do enough to make you specifically good at what it's supposed to do-- mixing melee and magic and dancing around the battlefield. Instead it gets tanky, and you wind up as just a normal wizard with an overpowered defense boost. It should give you something like Cunning Action instead of Int-to-AC, and things like War Magic and Eldritch Strike from the EK instead of Extra Attack and Song of Victory. (And maybe a bit more hit points)

It's not a bad archetype overall. Rogue 2/Bladesinger X is extremely fun and makes good use of the Bladesinger's Extra Attack if you just take Expertise in Athletics + Stealth. It's not necessarily more effective at tanking than e.g. a Life Cleric/Enchanter, but it is both different and not less effective. And sometimes you're not in the mood for big honking greatswords, and you feel like you want to play a character with cloaks and rapiers. Rogue 2/Bladesinger X can be that character.

In short, the wizard base chassis is good enough that you can afford to pick an archetype which you happen to find fun and cool.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's not a bad archetype overall. Rogue 2/Bladesinger X is extremely fun and makes good use of the Bladesinger's Extra Attack if you just take Expertise in Athletics + Stealth. It's not necessarily more effective at tanking than e.g. a Life Cleric/Enchanter, but it is both different and not less effective. And sometimes you're not in the mood for big honking greatswords, and you feel like you want to play a character with cloaks and rapiers. Rogue 2/Bladesinger X can be that character.

In short, the wizard base chassis is good enough that you can afford to pick an archetype which you happen to find fun and cool.
Oh, I'm not mad at it for power or anything; I'm just grumpy it doesn't do what I feel like it promises.