DEX to damage... why not?

[Von Zinzer]

So there doesn't seem to be an easy way in Pathfinder to allow for your DEX bonus to apply to your DAMAGE rolls... my question is, why not? Would this be horribly broken in some way that I can't fathom? I mean, it's not like DEX-based classes like the Rogue are particularly strong combatants as it currently stands.

(Note that there's some 3PP content that will do it, I'm not really concerned with that because 3PP stuff is usually banned at my table.)

Thanks for your input!

[Daefos]

Because Dexterity also increases your AC, Reflex saves and (arguably) more important skills. If it applies to damage rolls without investment, then Strength is largely redundant; given the choice, Dexterity would always be the better stat.

[Starbuck_II]

Because Dexterity also increases your AC, Reflex saves and (arguably) more important skills. If it applies to damage rolls without investment, then Strength is largely redundant; given the choice, Dexterity would always be the better stat.

Except for 2 handers who get times ands a half: Dex doesn't get that.

But yes, dex is better for dual or single 1 hander weapon users.

[Von Zinzer]

Because Dexterity also increases your AC, Reflex saves and (arguably) more important skills. If it applies to damage rolls without investment, then Strength is largely redundant; given the choice, Dexterity would always be the better stat.

I absolutely get that DEX would always be the better stat, but I'm not sure what you mean by "without investment"? Like, why isn't there a feat for TWF/DEX fighters (not Fighters, the class; just people who fight :smalltongue:) to allow DEX to DAMAGE? I'm not saying it should be automatic; just available.

[Florian]

Would this be horribly broken in some way that I can't fathom?

Yes. DEX is probably the one attribute that generates the most secondary stats, like Ref Save and Init, along with AC.

[Albions_Angel]

There arnt a huge number of ways to do it in basic 3.5 either. I would assume its because DEX would be far too much of a catch all stat. Its used for AC, Initiative, All ranged attacks, Melee Attacks with various feats/weapons, the most common save, a host of skills, some of which allow you to replace STR (escape artist anyone?).

If you allowed it to easily apply to damage, you would end up with martials that just dump STR and potentially even CON. With Damage coming from STR (as well as to hit in MOST cases), you force martials to split their point buys across a number of skills.

Of course, that doesnt take into account that casters need their casting stat and almost nothing else. But thats a separate issue.

Its probably also a balance issue. The thinking was probably (from original D&D, not specifically pathfinder) that rogues and bards should do less BASE damage than Fighters and Barbarians. The rogue probably eventually outclasses them on that score, but only if they can deal their sneak attack damage. Now, we know thats not the case NOW, but I think that was the intent.

In modern games? With optimization, even for Pathfinder, through the roof, you probably wont encounter a problem if you allow DEX to damage. People already MIN/MAX so much that having someone SAD into DEX wont be an issue. And you can fluff it as "people with dex find a way through defenses easier" or "a dexterous character can twist the blade, dealing extra damage, even if the hit wasnt strong".

Personally, I keep it out of my 3.5e games. Even "useless" classes like CAd Ninja can get reliable enough damage to be useful in low op games without adding dex to damage. You might want to consider (if the feat even exists in PF, I dont know) getting rid of the +1 BAB requirement for Weapon Finesse. The classes that need it dont start with +1 BAB, restricting them to being useless for 2 levels.

EDIT: Swordsaged... but I think I went into more detail than others, and shared more of my opinion, so Ill keep it :)

[Wonton]

Except for 2 handers who get times ands a half: Dex doesn't get that.

Actually, TWF adds 1x your Strength with the main hand and 0.5x with the off-hand, for a total of 1.5x. The trade-offs of TWF vs THF aren't nearly as bad as people think.

Also, can't believe that no one's mentioned that Gunslingers get Dex to damage from level 5.

[Kurald Galain]

In addition to the above comments about dex already being the "god stat" (not just in PF, but in almost every RPG that has ability scores), an important point about 3E/PF is that every ability score has its purpose. That is, players cannot just decide to use their best stat for whatever they want. They can't use strength on knowledge skills, cannot base armor class on consitution, and don't use wisdom for melee damage. At least, not easily: sometimes there is an item or feat for that, but only if this contextually makes sense. If the main argument for a stat swap is "hey, I want my character to be stronger", well the game designers are ignoring that.

Because the alternative is basically what 4E does. You always apply your best ability score to attacks, to damage, to hit points (via backgrounds), to AC (in several cases), and to general problem solving (via the SC system). And the result is that optimized characters can no longer be distinguished through their ability scores, in addition to having four dump stats.

[Elkad]

Actually, TWF adds 1x your Strength with the main hand and 0.5x with the off-hand, for a total of 1.5x. The trade-offs of TWF vs THF aren't nearly as bad as people think.

Also, can't believe that no one's mentioned that Gunslingers get Dex to damage from level 5.

Except the TWF character has a to-hit penalty. So the two-handed weapon guy gets a couple points of power attack for the same hit percentage.


I've mostly eliminated dual-wield penalties (completely for anyone who cares to optimize it a bit) in my games. And my modified TWF feat gives you full damage bonus with both hands.
The TWF character actually does slightly MORE damage, but the increase in magic weapon cost offsets that.

[Wonton]

Except the TWF character has a to-hit penalty. So the two-handed weapon guy gets a couple points of power attack for the same hit percentage.


I've mostly eliminated dual-wield penalties (completely for anyone who cares to optimize it a bit) in my games. And my modified TWF feat gives you full damage bonus with both hands.
The TWF character actually does slightly MORE damage, but the increase in magic weapon cost offsets that.

Yeah, I still think TWF is subpar (feat investment and DR being the biggest problems), but the point is, numerically, a Str TWF build still works. Strength and Power Attack both add the same damage for a TWF and THF build. And the only buff I do in my games is bundling ITWF/GTWF/etc into one (sometimes they all even come with TWF, I'm undecidwd on that one). Any build that adds damage per attack is still great with TWF.


In addition to the above comments about dex already being the "god stat" (not just in PF, but in almost every RPG that has ability scores), an important point about 3E/PF is that every ability score has its purpose. That is, players cannot just decide to use their best stat for whatever they want. They can't use strength on knowledge skills, cannot base armor class on consitution, and don't use wisdom for melee damage. At least, not easily: sometimes there is an item or feat for that, but only if this contextually makes sense. If the main argument for a stat swap is "hey, I want my character to be stronger", well the game designers are ignoring that.

Because the alternative is basically what 4E does. You always apply your best ability score to attacks, to damage, to hit points (via backgrounds), to AC (in several cases), and to general problem solving (via the SC system). And the result is that optimized characters can no longer be distinguished through their ability scores, in addition to having four dump stats.

Agree with this 100%. My least favourite thing in D&D is 18Str/10Dex/18Con/6Int/6Wis/6Cha builds. The more stats characters are allowed to dump, the more they stop feeling real and turn into caricatures. Almost like "item level" in certain MMOs, your character starts becoming more and more about one number and one number only, your main stat.

If anything, I think 3rd ed did a great job of making the first 5 stats all important, so you do feel a penalty for dumping them. (sadly, not Charisma)

[Albions_Angel]

Charisma becomes important very quickly in social games. Sadly, very heavily social games require an EXCEPTIONAL DM and are a real pig to do. I tried to have ONE social scenario in my story driven combat campaign and my party ended up murder-hoboing the entire thing, despite me making sure they had all the skills and abilities to do it the social way. Had to invent a hidden diary with all the dialogue they missed.

Its not that Charisma is easy to dump, its that few DMs are capable of running a game where its necessary. I know that sounds the same but I feel its an important distinction.

And they could have at least made charisma important for Warlocks. The fact that the warlock, the Cha based blaster, is able to dump Cha and actually do better is stupid.

[Florian]

No, sorry, 3E did the worst possible job here.

If you want to boil it down, you actually have two stats, "Might" and "Magic" and each class uses a combination of those two.

[Psyren]

There's multiple ways in PF to get Dex to damage, and they seem pretty easy to me. Or you can get other kinds of bonus damage - like sneak attack, judgement/bane, studied combat, smite etc. Or even do both.

[Wonton]

Yeah, true. It's just that the first 5 actually have mechanics attached to them, which punish you if you dump them. Cha does not, and actually requires the DM to force the PCs that dump it to roll Bluff/Diplomacy from time to time. I do know that players in my game often go "UGH, I shouldn't have put a 7 in Charisma, I'm definitely bumping that to 8 at level 4", which I consider an accomplishment. :P

[Von Zinzer]

In addition to the above comments about dex already being the "god stat" ... an important point about 3E/PF is that every ability score has its purpose.

I entirely agree with this. Part of the issue I'm encountering is that my group tends to be story/character/RP oriented while enjoying the occasional fight... and I tend to like the flavour of MAD "Tier 5" classes (Ninja FTW :smallbiggrin:). Meanwhile, there's that guy playing a Summoner, and rendering me redundant.

For what it's worth, I wasn't saying that I necessarily want DEX to damage, I was just genuinely asking why, in a system where you can massage just about every stat to where you want it, there's no explicit feat that does so.


...I do know that players in my game often go "UGH, I shouldn't have put a 7 in Charisma, I'm definitely bumping that to 8 at level 4", which I consider an accomplishment. :P

Agreed! But I think it requires some work on the part of the DM to ensure that a botched social encounter has some consequences. If you can just punch/stab/fireball your way out of the fact that you dreadfully offended the Baroness' majordomo then social encounters lack weight.

[Kurald Galain]

Yeah, true. It's just that the first 5 actually have mechanics attached to them, which punish you if you dump them. Cha does not

Social skills are still a mechanic. I think that strength is a dump stat more often than charisma (at least, for anybody that isn't a melee character) because its main consequence is carrying capacity, and there are alternatives for that.

[CasualViking]

Charisma becomes important very quickly in social games. Sadly, very heavily social games require an EXCEPTIONAL DM and are a real pig to do. I tried to have ONE social scenario in my story driven combat campaign and my party ended up murder-hoboing the entire thing, despite me making sure they had all the skills and abilities to do it the social way. Had to invent a hidden diary with all the dialogue they missed.

Its not that Charisma is easy to dump, its that few DMs are capable of running a game where its necessary. I know that sounds the same but I feel its an important distinction.

And they could have at least made charisma important for Warlocks. The fact that the warlock, the Cha based blaster, is able to dump Cha and actually do better is stupid.

No, the only time you roll raw Charisma checks is when influencing Charmed or Called creatures. Everything else runs on social skills, which you can attribute-shift or just power through a measly -2 penalty.

[Necroticplague]

I'd argue that charisma is actually the most important stat, because of all the 'x stat to y bonus' available for it. Sure, it might be near useless by default (only need one character to have the social skills, everyone else can dump it), there's so many things that let you add or switch to charisma that it can end up being a god stat. Like adding cha to ac twice by level two, then slapping cha to all saves two more levels later, then picking up cha to attack and damage from a cheap item, then adding cha to attack from another one level dip and a feat. So at level six, you have cha to ac twice, all three saves once, attack twice, and damage once. I don't think any other stat can be so heavily leveraged.

[Crake]

Uhh, doesn't unchained rogue get dex to damage at like, level 3?

Edit: Yup, level 3, on one kind of finessable weapon (plus an additional few more later down the line), and the dex replaces str, so goodbye str penalty to damage if you have 9 or less str.

[Psyren]

@Charisma tangent - even if social encounters are a big deal in your games, PF has multiple ways to get your face skills to key off more combat-relevant stats. Or you can just eat the penalty (which will never go below -2 starting out) and offset it with things like Skill Focus and items that are far less valuable than your starting stats are. Or you can supplant them entirely with (sneaky) use of magic.

Remember, no matter how reserved/curt/taciturn your character is natively, social skills are still trainable - but if your combat and vital stats are low starting out, you can easily die ignominiously in a back alley before you get important enough to interact with anyone's majordomo.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'd argue that charisma is actually the most important stat, because of all the 'x stat to y bonus' available for it. Sure, it might be near useless by default (only need one character to have the social skills, everyone else can dump it), there's so many things that let you add or switch to charisma that it can end up being a god stat. Like adding cha to ac twice by level two, then slapping cha to all saves two more levels later, then picking up cha to attack and damage from a cheap item, then adding cha to attack from another one level dip and a feat. So at level six, you have cha to ac twice, all three saves once, attack twice, and damage once. I don't think any other stat can be so heavily leveraged.

Care to explain where each of those are coming from? I'm curious.

[Necroticplague]

Care to explain where each of those are coming from? I'm curious.

1.Battle Dancer-AC Bonus ability, CHA to AC as untyped bonus.
2.Ghost Template Class-Incorporeal Subtype, CHA to AC as deflection bonus.
2-4: Paladin-Divine Grace, CHA to Saves as untyped bonus
5:Filler
Item:Gauntlet of Heartfelt Blows, CHA to damage (whoops, messed up here, it's not that cheap, and it's only to damage)
6:Bard, Snowflake Wardance Feat-CHA to attack.

[Wonton]

Social skills are still a mechanic. I think that strength is a dump stat more often than charisma (at least, for anybody that isn't a melee character) because its main consequence is carrying capacity, and there are alternatives for that.

True, the Str dump problem kinda gets solved by a bag of holding - or a friendly character with high Str that can carry everything for you. And, of course, many people kinda ignore carrying capacity entirely. Even then, I don't like to go below 10 Str on characters, because realizing "Oh, I can carry my armor, my weapons... and nothing else" sucks.

[grarrrg]

Except for 2 handers who get times ands a half: Dex doesn't get that.

If you're an Unchained Rogue (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1h3#v5748eaic9tb7) you get that.

[Ecliptic]

I know you said no 3pp... but Dreamscarred Press is fairly widely accepted. can always try to convince your dm to use Dsp materials and take the Deadly Agility feat ;)

[Anlashok]

To answer the original question fo why not: Basically people are really scared of dex to damage and think it'll ruin the game if allowed even though it already exists in multiple forms and doesn't cause any meaningful balance problems.

[Eldariel]

No, there's no real good reason for it, other than one of those other stupid kneejerks which are reasons for most of the major balance issues with both systems (PF and 3.5).

Even in 3.5, it being tied to martial stance with Shadow Blade is dumb. Same with all the PF restrictions. The game would be perfectly fine if Finesse did both; Strength-based builds still save a feat and have sizable advantages in combat maneuvers (without another feat), weapons (all the good reach weapons are two-handers for instance, and reach is kind of a big deal) and better extra damage options and no penalties (TWF builds get even more feat tax; Dex-based THF still can't match Str-based THF due to 1½xStr for THF). All of that leads to the THF and TWF builds doing about the same except the THF build having like extra 5 feats free to do whatever the hell they want. Which is still ridiculous.

If TWF were 1 feat, Weapon Finesse one feat - no, actually, using Dex to hit on finessable weapons should be a default option that requires no feats; has anyone proficient ever seriously tried to use a Rapier with raw strength? Then Weapon Finesse should give you Dex to damage. Then TWF feats in one feat. Then one more if you wanna use Dex for maneuvers. That's 3 feats which is still a huge investment, to get rid of Strength-requirement for basic competence.

Yeah, Dex gives a lot of cool stuff but that really doesn't amount to enough on martial types to make them strictly superior; AC comes from Armor just as well as Dex and Reflex-saves are probably the least interesting of the bunch. Initiative is cool but more important on casters whose actions change the combat entirely than on martials whose actions amount to "well, I guess I either charge in alone or ready an action for the enemy, or shoot with my bow". Having played a bunch of Dex-based martials, I can say that my experience holds that life is significantly easier on a Strength-based chassis.

[CharonsHelper]

Except the TWF character has a to-hit penalty. So the two-handed weapon guy gets a couple points of power attack for the same hit percentage.


I've mostly eliminated dual-wield penalties (completely for anyone who cares to optimize it a bit) in my games. And my modified TWF feat gives you full damage bonus with both hands.
The TWF character actually does slightly MORE damage, but the increase in magic weapon cost offsets that.

Actually, TWF already has the highest DPR in Pathfinder past the first few levels once you start stacking the static damage. It still has the disadvantages of feat costs, DR issues, and less damage when you don't get a full attack, but in terms of raw damage it's about 20% higher. (The increase varies somewhat by class and how much static damage they get. Samurai probably gains the most benefit due to Challenge & Weapon Specialization giving them massive static damage boosts.)


I know you said no 3pp... but Dreamscarred Press is fairly widely accepted. can always try to convince your dm to use Dsp materials and take the Deadly Agility feat ;)

Deadly Agility pretty much invalidates all STR builds. It's far too little cost for such a powerful ability since it basically lets you dump STR for the cost of one feat, and then jack up your DEX for improved initiative/reflex/AC/etc.

[Eldariel]

Deadly Agility pretty much invalidates all STR builds. It's far too little cost for such a powerful ability since it basically lets you dump STR for the cost of one feat, and then jack up your DEX for improved initiative/reflex/AC/etc.

Two feats is too small a cost? And to really make anything out of those feats you still need to TWF (which is a feat blackhole) since otherwise your Strength bonuses would still be greater; two-handing off Dex is just rather silly. And your AC doesn't actually improve until very late in the game when you can afford like a Celestial Armor or something; for the first ~10 levels, overcoming the Fullplate Barrier tends to be way too expensive to be worth your WBL.

And this still doesn't address the fact that TWF doesn't have reach weapons which enable getting your hits in more often and having far superior battlefield control and enable you to get the first hit in practically all encounters. And then there's the whole full attack debacle; for TWF to do anything at all, you need full attack or some more ****ty feats.

[CharonsHelper]

Two feats is too small a cost?

Yes. Much too small.


And to really make anything out of those feats you still need to TWF (which is a feat blackhole) since otherwise your Strength bonuses would still be greater; two-handing off Dex is just rather silly.

Only if you're a straight martial. For a magus etc. there is no such TWF requirement. And if you are TWF, Deadly Agility has a dexterity version of Double Slice included, making it only really cost 1 feat.



And your AC doesn't actually improve until very late in the game when you can afford like a Celestial Armor or something; for the first ~10 levels, overcoming the Fullplate Barrier tends to be way too expensive to be worth your WBL.

Again - you're assuming that the character has access to full plate prof and can wear without penalty, such as the many gish classes who can only cast in light armor. Even if they do, before Celestial, a mithril breastplate can give higher total AC than normal full plate, only without all of the disadvantages involved in full plate (ACP/movement/weight). Plus more of their AC will be touch AC.


And this still doesn't address the fact that TWF doesn't have reach weapons which enable getting your hits in more often and having far superior battlefield control and enable you to get the first hit in practically all encounters. And then there's the whole full attack debacle; for TWF to do anything at all, you need full attack or some more ****ty feats.

You basically seem to be saying here than any STR build which doesn't use a reach weapon is inherently sub-par. And the DEX build's 5-8 higher initiative will already mean that they get to act fight in most encounters. Besides, it's not actually true that there are no reach DEX weapons. A whip is finessable. And as I said above, TWF is already the highest DPR in the game. Not to mention that a DEX build's DEX is inherently going to be higher than a STR build's STR since the STR build still needs a decent DEX.

Plus there are natural weapon builds which just get stupidly powerful benefits from Dex to Damage.

But it's not that DEX builds are higher DPR than STR builds if given access to Deadly Agility, it's that they have the same DPR, only with all of the secondary advantages of a high Dexterity. (initiative/reflex/AC/touch AC/many more skills than STR/etc.)

[illyahr]

I agree that Dex to damage isn't that big of a deal. Str to damage is far easier and lends itself better to single strikes than Dex does. In order to get your money's worth in a Dex to damage build, you really need TWF, which has the largest feat tax of any fighting style in the game, and magical items so you can keep getting full attacks, or you need to use a ranged build, which also has a large feat tax and lags behind most other forms of combat when it comes to damage.

Maxing a Dex build makes you become a little harder to hit, you can evade spells better and you get a small boost to some mostly non-combat skills. The drawbacks are surprisingly steep, however. Actually wearing armor will cap your Dex to AC, but it gives you more AC than Dex will and can be enchanted. Reflex saves are almost entirely against damaging effects, rather than the save-or-suck and save-or-die effects for the other two saves. If you fail a Reflex save, you take a bit of damage. However, if you fail a Fortitude save you could die outright and if you fail a Will save you could end up turning your weapons against your party.

[Secret Wizard]

Reposting something I put up before:


DISCLAIMER: I will proceed to type what constitutes my opinion. You may have a different opinion. It is impossible for me to type your opinion for several reasons. Please understand.

ON FINESSE, PATHFINDER, 5E AND HOMEBREW ALTERNATIVES

When I started playing Pathfinder, I really liked the concept of Weapon Finesse. It didn't help that my favorite race was Goblins (probably because I came from a Magic: the Gathering background) and my favorite class was the Rogue, so it all came together quite well.

To me, the roleplay function of Weapon Finesse meshed perfectly with the crunch function: my Goblin Rogue had only 12 STR, but his DEX was so high that his damage was very stable as long as he could get sneak attacks in. The thought of "but what if he dealt damage straight from his Dexterity?" never crossed my mind, because his high Dexterity already meant more damage, because I had picked a class that (theoretically) could maximize damage from solely having high attack modifiers, due to the static damage from sneak attack.

(Yes, as the levels progressed, the weaknesses of the CRB Rogue became more apparent to me, but we'll get to that.)

Years went by and new options started to proliferate - Dervish Dance first, too many players wanting to adopt the mess that is Deadly Agility, the rise, fall and plateau of Slashing and Fencing Grace (and Starry Grace), and, of course, the coming of the Swashbuckler and the Unchained Rogue.

But the most relevant development did not happen within Pathfinder - it took place in another game, in Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition.

Lo and behold, their core rules included an option to use finesse for weapons, both for accuracy and for damage, as a base characteristic of any applicable creature. Many Pathfinder players started to demand similar baseline options for this game.

WHY DEXTERITY TO DAMAGE WORKS IN 5E AND NOT IN PATHFINDER

I think that many people who want to apply that are missing several important points that make STR and DEX balanced in the context of 5E which are not found on Pathfinder. I will proceed to list the ones that I consider important:


Limited damage: This is a very important one. In DND 5E, damage growth is restricted. Using a 1d8 rapier has an actual drawback when compared to using a 2d6 greatsword because there are no compounding bonuses to damage to trivialize weapon damage. In Pathfinder, at high enough level, a 1d6 rapier will outclass a 2d6 greatsword simply because it has a higher critical range; but even without considering that, weapon damage gets buried below a pile of modifiers quite fast. In 5E, however, damage modifiers are limited as there is no massive stat growth. This makes the choice of weapon have an effect throughout the whole game.
Limited attribute growth: In 5E, attributes are capped at 20. This makes it easy to calculate how big the benefit of focusing on a given attribute will be for a player for the designers, and they balanced different types of armors around that. In Pathfinder, you have infinite stat growth coupled with stat belts, tomes, several types of temporary buffs and succubus romancing. The way Pathfinder is built allows for single-attribute investments to reach ridiculous levels (which is one of the reasons why full-casters have it so easy in this game). Allowing a player to cheat attribute economy is a munchkin's dream, and having the ability to simply forgo STR in calculations baseline without obsoleting STR builds requires heavy tweaking of the system... in turn, this is tied with the next point:
Limited applicability of DEX within subsystems: In 5E, DEX is not vital to many subsystems. The best example of this is AC. In 5E, DEX has no bearing to your AC if you go with heavy armor. You may be rocking 7 DEX and take no penalty to AC. Due to limited scaling on skill challenges, proficiency in a skill and a moderate modifier is a good enough way to pass them. Furthermore, while DEX saving throws are very numerous, STR saving throws also exist (even if they are scarce). By contrast, Pathfinder's DEX is a super-attribute, providing bonuses to many skills that have massively inflated DCs to beat, there are no STR saving throws, having low DEX is discouraged for even heavy plate users (hell, Fighters are encouraged to keep 14-16 DEX even while wearing it), and initiative modifiers scale to ridiculous levels.

However, the reasons why DEX-to-damage (and baseline Finesse) work in 5E also belie the fact that without it, Finesse would be unviable for that game. To cite a simple example, if a 5E character had to invest both in STR and DEX in a system with limited attribute growth, they'd be so stat-starved they would not be able to function properly.

This in turn leads me to my following point...

WHY I THINK DEX-TO-DAMAGE IS UNNECESSARY FOR PATHFINDER

Let me preface with a personal opinion: DEX-to-damage makes no sense. I understand the logic behind Finesse - your character is attacking precisely through the exposed points of the enemy's defenses. But I don't follow the logic of DEX-to-damage - even if you managed to make a cut in the enemy's flesh, it wouldn't be deeper because you slashed faster. I follow the accuracy part, but not the damage part.

Here's the thing though - most players don't realize they can build perfectly viable characters with Finesse while keeping STR as their core damage stat (while playing on 20 point buy or higher). I've built Finesse UnMonks and Brawlers that worked perfectly fine without DEX-to-damage in that point buy that had some advantages over their STR counterparts. Overall, both characters felt balanced between one another.

This got me thinking about the nature of Finesse itself, which brings me back to my little Goblin Rogue:
Finesse is a tool that is best applied to class that can function well with low base damage (i.e. 10-14 STR) and high accuracy (i.e. 16-20 DEX).

The prime example are Rogues, with stacking sneak attack; but you can also find other classes that benefit from it - Bards, who are tied down to light armor, have enough scaling bonuses to damage (inspire courage, self-buffs) to make STR14/DEX18 a viable layout; UnMonks can use the extra AC in the early game and don't hurt too much for damage thanks to scaling unarmed damage for extra output and access to stuff like the Elemental Fury ki power or the Jabbing Style featline (which, coincidentally, requires STR 13 to maximize).

I think this type of building not only serves the game's balance better but also reflects Finesse users in fantasy better - after all, when you think of a Rogue-like character, you don't think of a scrawny dude that STR 7 would represent. These guys have some fiber to them from all the running, climbing and brawling they do - they are street rats after all. Sure, it's not their main feature, but they don't slack on it.

MY HOMEBREW TWEAKS TO ROGUES AND SWASHBUCKLERS

With this being said, I was determining to make the Rogues and Swashbucklers work with an initial STR 12-14 as their damage attribute without crippling them.
While being completely aware of the deficiencies of each class, I applied the following tweaks. Of course, when I talk about Rogue, I talk about Unchained Rogue.

UNCHAINED ROGUE TWEAKS

They keep Finesse Training at level 1, but they lose the DEX-to-damage component gained at 3rd level (and the extra picks at later levels).
They gain:


High base Will saves: Rogues know every trick in the book. They are tricksters, deceivers and scammers. While they are usually cowardly and overly ambitious, those attributes only stem from their cunning and calculating personalities. This tweak allows Rogues to forget having to boost Will saves with investments in Wisdom, freeing up points at character creation.
New feature: Twist the Blade (Ex) At 3rd level, whenever the rogue hits an enemy with an attack that does not deal sneak attack damage, she gains a +2 bonus to damage. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every two levels thereafter. This feature is intended to replicate the damage boost that DEX-to-damage provided Rogues. Remember that it is compounded with STR-to-damage to reach it. Note how this ability, unlike Finesse Training, is also good for thrown weapon or ranged weapon builds.
New feature: Improved Sneak Attack (Ex) At 6th level, whenever the rogue deals sneak attack damage to an enemy afflicted with debilitating injury, she applies the damage bonus of Twist the Blade even if that attack was a sneak attack. This feature is intended to boost damage even with sneak attacks, because DEX-to-damage is always on.
New feature: Signature Style (Ex) At 9th level, the Rogue chooses one of the following Styles and receives the bonus listed below.
Singleton: When attacking with only one melee weapon, the rogue's sneak attack damage dice increase to 1d8.
Two-weapon fighting: When attack with two weapons, the rogue reduces the attack penalty of two-weapon fighting by 1.
Ranged combat: The rogue may make sneak attacks from any distance.


This last feature is intended to compensate for the power loss of not being single attribute dependent. It has the added bonus of making other fighting styles that are not TWF viable for Rogues.

SWASHBUCKLER TWEAKS

With Slashing/Fencing/Starry Grace banned from my games, the Swashbuckler, which was in a bad position, is put into a worse one. However, I took the liberty of making the following tweaks. They gain:

High base Fortitude saves: Pirates, poison-swilling masked men, nobles that are imprisoned for decades while they plot their inevitable revenge - these are all typical swashbucklers who show that the very essence of a swashbuckler is someone who has been made resilient through adversity. Good fortitude saves are a must here. Having the seadog swashbuckler fail Fortitude saves against seasickness is unacceptable. This makes the Swashbuckler less anxious to boost CON.
Better Precise Strike: Now available at first level! You can also make that thing the Fighter does that makes enemies die in one shot. This compensates just a bit for not having DEX-to-damage available at 1st level, but do note that now you have a couple of free feats too and that you likely have about 12-14 STR.
Better Charmed Life: Now grants CHA to all saves at all times. This frees up points at character creation, allowing 12 CON / 7 WIS Swashbucklers, rather than the current version who NEEDS ALL THE CON AND WIS to not fail every single save.
New feature: Trained Grace (Ex) At 4th level, the swashbuckler can reduce the total attack penalties that she has voluntarily applied to her attacks by 1. This total penalty is reduced by 1 at 8th level and every four levels thereafter. This makes it so Swashbucklers don't suffer from not focusing on a single attribute, by allowing them to fully use Combat Expertise or Power Attack with very little penalty, plus allowing them to exploit other alternatives - such as occasionally using nonlethal damage, fighting defensively or stuff like Dazing Assault, which they can now qualify for with their better focus on STR.
New feature: Lucky Break (Ex) At 6th level, once a day, the swashbuckler can call upon his luck to double the bonus to all saves provided by Charmed Life for 1 round. This is a free action that can be taken even outside of the swashbuckler's turn. At 10th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the swashbuckler gains another daily use of this ability Further improves the Swashbuckler's reliance on Charisma and devalues Wisdom/Constitution even more for them. They are, after all, lucky fellas.

[Eldariel]

Yes. Much too small.

Funny. It's too large a cost.


Only if you're a straight martial. For a magus etc. there is no such TWF requirement. And if you are TWF, Deadly Agility has a dexterity version of Double Slice included, making it only really cost 1 feat.

If you're a Magus, you're already MAD up the wazoo so you need all the help you can get.


Again - you're assuming that the character has access to full plate prof and can wear without penalty, such as the many gish classes who can only cast in light armor. Even if they do, before Celestial, a mithril breastplate can give higher total AC than normal full plate, only without all of the disadvantages involved in full plate (ACP/movement/weight). Plus more of their AC will be touch AC.

Fair. At the same time, Mithril Fullplate out-ACs Mithril Breastplate, albeit being more expensive of course.


You basically seem to be saying here than any STR build which doesn't use a reach weapon is inherently sub-par. And the DEX build's 5-8 higher initiative will already mean that they get to act fight in most encounters. Besides, it's not actually true that there are no reach DEX weapons. A whip is finessable. And as I said above, TWF is already the highest DPR in the game. Not to mention that a DEX build's DEX is inherently going to be higher than a STR build's STR since the STR build still needs a decent DEX.

Yeah, martial builds that don't use reach weapons are suboptimal. They give up one of the two things martial builds actually can do and focus only on doing damage, gaining minor amounts in that regard in exchange for massive tactical handicap and uselessness in a party. And yeah, Whips exist but they don't threaten so they lose out on the big advantage of reach weapons; thus I wouldn't count them. Plus they have those other drawbacks about provoking AoOs.

As for those DPR calculations, that's fully possible but also utterly irrelevant. If a build needs to dump 3+ feats into core competency, it better do more damage than someone who is investing none.


Plus there are natural weapon builds which just get stupidly powerful benefits from Dex to Damage.

Those are their own category. More a problem with natural weapons than dex to damage. Not that it really matters.


But it's not that DEX builds are higher DPR than STR builds if given access to Deadly Agility, it's that they have the same DPR, only with all of the secondary advantages of a high Dexterity. (initiative/reflex/AC/touch AC/many more skills than STR/etc.)

At the cost of multiple feats. And those advantages are nice but they don't really amount to enough on melee types anyways; Initiative is the biggest one but melee is the worst archetype to take advantage of it (well, martials in general are pretty worthless; if they can't full attack or mounted/pounced charge, they can't do anything meaningful).

[Extra Anchovies]

Dexterity to damage is unnecessary, because Dexterity to damage is for classes with static per-hit damage effects, and most or all of those classes - magus, slayer, inquisitor, paladin, investigator - are perfectly fine where they are. Finesse magi in particular do not need more damage, nor do they need another stat that can be safely dumped to boost Int and Dex.


you really need TWF, which has the largest feat tax of any fighting style in the game

A Dex-based dual-wielding build needs two feats, Weapon Finesse and TWF. Improved TWF is a nice thing to have later on, but Greater TWF isn't worth taking on most builds; another attack at -10 is only half as good as ITWF's extra at -5. Two easily-accessible feats to function with another handy feat down the line seems pretty reasonable to me.


or you need to use a ranged build, which also has a large feat tax and lags behind most other forms of combat when it comes to damage.

1. Pathfinder archers are nuts. Paladins, Slayers, Inquisitors; anyone who can easily get their static-damage effects on ranged attacks can wreck face as an archer, between not needing to move for full attacks, easily bypassing material DR, and the wide array of archery damage boosts. Archery only needs two feats to function (PBS and Precise Shot), and everything from there makes them progressively better at dealing damage (Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot, etc).
2. You appear to be saying that dex to damage is possible with a bow. How, outside of Bolt Ace?


Actually wearing armor will cap your Dex to AC, but it gives you more AC than Dex will and can be enchanted.

I don't see how this is much of an issue - dex-maxed Celestial Armor gives a total of +13 AC (or +14 in Pathfinder), which is more than any other type of armor AFAIK. So dex builds just have to settle for having higher AC than anyone else.


Let me preface with a personal opinion: DEX-to-damage makes no sense. I understand the logic behind Finesse - your character is attacking precisely through the exposed points of the enemy's defenses. But I don't follow the logic of DEX-to-damage - even if you managed to make a cut in the enemy's flesh, it wouldn't be deeper because you slashed faster. I follow the accuracy part, but not the damage part.

I very much agree with this. I've never come across a satisfying explanation for how dex to damage works. I get how "hits really hard" applies to attack and damage, but I don't get how "hits where the enemy isn't protected" (i.e. Weapon Finesse) deals more damage. I often hear that it's because they're landing hits in locations that are worse to be injured in, but there's a few issues with that:
1. The parts of the enemy that are most susceptible to damage are going to be the ones that armor will be designed to protect, making "hits vital locations" dex to damage incompatible with "hits where the enemy isn't protected" dex to attack.
2. Hitting in vital locations is something that a lot of finesse characters already get bonus damage for, i.e. Sneak Attack.

There's also the idea that it's about how fast they hit, but swinging a weapon faster would be dependent on Strength. The speed with which a weapon is swung depends on how easily you can move the weapon and how easily you can gather bodily momentum to put behind the blow.

[Psyren]

I personally think Dex to damage should be fairly easy to get, but count as precision damage. Against most enemies this will just make it as good to have as it is now, but also gives it an disadvantage that Str-based builds don't have to worry about - enemies with fortification or precisionless anatomies, like elementals and oozes, will remain better for a Str build to take on. This will offset the obvious advantages that Dex focus confers while also making Dex to damage just make more sense in general.

[Kurald Galain]

If you're a Magus, you're already MAD up the wazoo so you need all the help you can get.
Good heavens, no. Whatever gives you that idea?


Dexterity to damage is unnecessary, because Dexterity to damage is for classes with static per-hit damage effects, and most or all of those classes - magus, slayer, inquisitor, paladin, investigator - are perfectly fine where they are. Finesse magi in particular do not need more damage, nor do they need another stat that can be safely dumped to boost Int and Dex.
Well said.


I very much agree with this. I've never come across a satisfying explanation for how dex to damage works.
The main argument has never been "dex to damage makes sense". The argument is strictly "it's not unbalanced and I just want my character to be stronger". And as this thread suggests, it actually is unbalanced (if not game-breakingly so).

[CharonsHelper]

The main argument has never been "dex to damage makes sense". The argument is strictly "it's not unbalanced and I just want my character to be stronger". And as this thread suggests, it actually is unbalanced (if not game-breakingly so).

I'll agree with that. Martials don't break the game (wizards already do that), but DEX to damage still invalidates STR builds.

[Anlashok]

Deadly Agility pretty much invalidates all STR builds.
That's a nice little one liner but... it doesn't. But I guess all of this really highlights how much people have gotten themselves terrified of the concept.

[Psyren]

It may not invalidate them, but if it were easy to get, it begs the question of why you'd go with a Str build? Dex gives you reflex, uncapped AC, uncapped touch AC, initiative, skill mods that stay useful at all levels, as well as both ranged and melee accuracy. Str meanwhile gives you carrying capacity and... that's it, and even that becomes pointless once you get your hands on a donkey, never mind extraplanar storage.

I think Dex to damage should be possible, but Deadly Agility just makes it a bit too easy for my tastes.

[ekarney]

So there is a slightly awkward way to do this, but you only need to fork out for one weapon enhancement - you still miss out on 1.5x damage but you can get there by like level 6 or so.

Hand Crossbow Proficiency, Crossbow Sniper (Or which ever feat gives you dex to damage on crossbows) then get an aptitude (Hand Crossbow) weapon of your choice and ta-da! There you have it.

I would also like to point out that you can get wisdom to damage as well with little more investment.

[shawshank]

You guys act like the agile enchant isn't in core pathfinder already.

[Extra Anchovies]

You guys act like the agile enchant isn't in core pathfinder already.

It's in "A Song of Silver" (Hell's Rebels book 4), and I wouldn't quite call AP stuff "core". You can't always count on a specific weapon enchant being available, either; maybe the party doesn't have a crafter and there's no accessible magic mart.

I also don't think it should've been brought forward to Pathfinder, but I'm in the "dex to damage shouldn't be broadly accessible" camp.

[shawshank]

It's in "A Song of Silver" (Hell's Rebels book 4), and I wouldn't quite call AP stuff "core". You can't always count on a specific weapon enchant being available, either; maybe the party doesn't have a crafter and there's no accessible magic mart.

I also don't think it should've been brought forward to Pathfinder, but I'm in the "dex to damage shouldn't be broadly accessible" camp.

I mean to say that it is legal in PFS and considered a standard enchant. It would be a house-rule otherwise, would it not?

[Psyren]

I'm fine with Agile. Weapons can be stolen, sundered, suppressed etc, plus the GM can use loot tables instead of magic-mart or crafting etc. Even if they put it in the core product line instead of just the APs I'd be okay with it.

[The_Snark]

It may not invalidate them, but if it were easy to get, it begs the question of why you'd go with a Str build? Dex gives you reflex, uncapped AC, uncapped touch AC, initiative, skill mods that stay useful at all levels, as well as both ranged and melee accuracy. Str meanwhile gives you carrying capacity and... that's it, and even that becomes pointless once you get your hands on a donkey, never mind extraplanar storage.

A Strength build plays better with heavy armor, has slightly higher damage potential (assuming a two-handed weapon), offers access to a number of feats that a Dexterity build has trouble acquiring/making use of, and also I guess it frees up the feat/weapon enhancement that would otherwise go to Deadly Agility/Agile/etc. I haven't played enough Pathfinder to have much opinion on whether it's balanced, but it's not true that a Strength build has no upsides.

Also, for the OP: the feat Dervish Dance will get you Dex to damage with a scimitar, while Fencing Grace does the same for a rapier; neither of them are third-party. You have to be using the weapon one-handed, no shield or TWF allowed, and they have prerequisites, but still good for a number of concepts (especially swashbucklers).

[CharonsHelper]

Also, for the OP: the feat Dervish Dance will get you Dex to damage with a scimitar, while Fencing Grace does the same for a rapier; neither of them are third-party. You have to be using the weapon one-handed, no shield or TWF allowed, and they have prerequisites, but still good for a number of concepts (especially swashbucklers).

Right - and those don't bother me from a balance perspective because of the cost involved. (Though Dervish Dance is crazy good for a magus build because they need a hand free anyway for Spell Combat. Nearly every magus build I see uses it.)

Though of note - you can use a buckler in combination with Fencing/Slashing Grace as a buckler leaves your hand free.

[Necroticplague]

O.k, anyone else seeing the formatting really get screwed up in this thread? At least to me, it looks like something about Secret's post screws up the formatting on the second page.

EDIT: o.k, found problem by experimenting with quotes. something about the use of [.indent] and [/.indent] seems to be the root of the problem.

[CharonsHelper]

O.k, anyone else seeing the formatting really get screwed up in this thread? At least to me, it looks like something about Secret's post screws up the formatting on the second page.

Not just you.

[CasualViking]

It's in "A Song of Silver" (Hell's Rebels book 4), and I wouldn't quite call AP stuff "core".

No, that's just the latest printing.

[Secret Wizard]

O.k, anyone else seeing the formatting really get screwed up in this thread? At least to me, it looks like something about Secret's post screws up the formatting on the second page.

EDIT: o.k, found problem by experimenting with quotes. something about the use of [.indent] and [/.indent] seems to be the root of the problem.

Removed the indent that broke the thread XD

[Krobar]

So there doesn't seem to be an easy way in Pathfinder to allow for your DEX bonus to apply to your DAMAGE rolls... my question is, why not? Would this be horribly broken in some way that I can't fathom? I mean, it's not like DEX-based classes like the Rogue are particularly strong combatants as it currently stands.

(Note that there's some 3PP content that will do it, I'm not really concerned with that because 3PP stuff is usually banned at my table.)

Thanks for your input!

My group agrees. So we added a "Greater Weapon Finesse" feat which does exactly that. The prerequisite is Weapon Finesse. So two feats and you replace strength with dexterity when using a finesse weapon.

This hasn't caused any problems at our table.

[Sayt]

I personally think Dex to damage should be fairly easy to get, but count as precision damage. Against most enemies this will just make it as good to have as it is now, but also gives it an disadvantage that Str-based builds don't have to worry about - enemies with fortification or precisionless anatomies, like elementals and oozes, will remain better for a Str build to take on. This will offset the obvious advantages that Dex focus confers while also making Dex to damage just make more sense in general.

This actually makes a lot of sense to me! I might need to nab this idea...

[martixy]

I personally think Dex to damage should be fairly easy to get, but count as precision damage. Against most enemies this will just make it as good to have as it is now, but also gives it an disadvantage that Str-based builds don't have to worry about - enemies with fortification or precisionless anatomies, like elementals and oozes, will remain better for a Str build to take on. This will offset the obvious advantages that Dex focus confers while also making Dex to damage just make more sense in general.

Although this constitutes a nerf, and I very much dislike those, there are a great many arguments for, and none against, so just by nature of it fitting so damn well, I'll have to agree with you.

[Paul H]

Hi

These are the only ways I know to add Dex to damage:

1) Unchained Rogue (Unchained Monk might be the same)
2) Agile Weapon (Only for Finessable weapons)
3) Dervish Dance. Only works for Scimitars. needs Wpn Finesse & 2 ranks Perform (Dance) as Prereqs.

Not sure of any others.

The Unchained Rogue allows 2H Dex damage for 2H Finesse Wpns like the Elven Curved Blade.

I use a Dwarven Unchained Rogue 4/Lorekeeper Ftr 9 in an online game. Uses said Elven Curved Blade. Does OK. Especially with Major Magic talent Shield Spell & Improved Crit

Thanks
Paul H

[Psyren]

4) Slashing Grace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/slashing-grace-combat)
5) Fencing Grace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/fencing-grace-combat)
6) Aldori Swordlord 2 (Dueling Swords only)

Ranged
8) Crossbowman Fighter 11 + Overwatch Style
9) Gunslinger 5
10) Bolt Ace "Gunslinger" 5
11) Steel Hound Investigator 15

[upho]

Deadly Agility pretty much invalidates all STR builds. It's far too little cost for such a powerful ability since it basically lets you dump STR for the cost of one feat, and then jack up your DEX for improved initiative/reflex/AC/etc.:smalleek: Are you serious? At least if we're talking about say mid-op or higher melee builds in a real game using all Paizo and DSP material, this is very far from the truth.

To me, it appears the main reason people believe Deadly Agility to be "such a powerful ability" is because they get stuck staring myopically at the melee related mechanics and options which had a greater relative importance a few years back (such as those CharonsHelper mentioned above) than they have in today's game which Deadly Agility is designed for. And therefore they make basic assumptions which simply aren't true anymore (if they've ever been) and largely miss the arguably much more important factors for melee builds and the power of the related options:

1. A Dex build cannot be even remotely as effective as a Str build at any melee combat focus besides perhaps pure single-target damage, and will still remain clearly weaker than a Str build with that focus in most cases (see later points). This is of course mostly because the effectiveness of the potentially at least as powerful combat focuses for melee - control and debuffing (and sub-categories thereof, such as "tanking"/defense) - are much more dependent on reach and size than a damage focus usually is. And since size increases penalizes Dex but boosts Str, a Dex build is simply blown out of the water by a Str build in these areas. As things currently stand IIRC, in order to avoid size penalties to Dex, a Dex build is pretty much stuck with a reach of no more than a 32.5 ft. radius (excluding boosts from defensive focus and similar), while a Str build can have a reach radius as great as 80 ft., resulting in a max threatened area more than six times larger than that of the Dex build. This difference is often a colossal (literally) advantage, especially since the much greater max size of a Str build also allows it to "out-reach" even most (all?) of the largest epic level monsters, to turn the size difference caps of most combat maneuvers into an advantage, and to gain up to a +8 size bonus to CMB/CMD. In effect, a Str build may not even have to invest in a single feat to use any combat maneuver without having to fear the AoO provoked, often with a great or actually unbeatable bonus to the check.

2. Dex cannot be boosted as high as Str, and not nearly as high during mid/high levels. There are simply a lot more numerous, more significant and more easily accessible Str boosts than there are Dex boosts in the game. For example, a 10th level build can pretty easily have a Str above 40 in every round of every fight during a typical adventuring day, and even above 50 during a large majority of those rounds (ex: 16 base, 2 race, 2 level, 4 belt, 4 rage, 5 Strongclaw, 6 mutagen, 4 unbounded ability, up to 6 size). And especially if based on a class granting rage, this is without necessarily having to pay much of any real significance besides -2 bab, -2 to -4 AC, 2 lost rage class levels, three feats and a swift action per encounter above the usual, while gaining a lot in addition to a very high Str (such as up to Gargantuan size, +5 NA increase also applying to touch AC, uncanny dodge, 50% chance to ignore SA/crits, +5 vs mind-affecting, disease, poison, exhaustion and fatigue, All Around Vision, +5 ft. natural reach, +5 CMB and CMD, targeting abilities such as scent and 25 ft. blindsense, +5 Perception, burrow speed equal to base speed, etc, etc).

3. Many of the arguably greatest melee options aren't compatible or nearly as effective with a Dex build, such as most 2-handed weapons, damage die size increases, Seize the Opportunity, Power Attack and related feats (like Cornugon Smash and Hurtful), Dragon Ferocity, Horn of the Criosphinx, etc, etc.

4. A low Dex can be replaced with a secondary stat and/or otherwise largely compensated for in the case of virtually any value of importance to a melee build. For example, a warder can use Int or Wis instead of Dex for initiative, Reflex and Combat Reflexes, the Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting feat bypasses Dex requirements of all TWF related feats (and allows for wielding 1-handed weapons off-hand), the Defensive Expertise feat adds shield bonus to touch AC and shield enhancement bonus to Reflex, the Wisdom in the Flesh trait allows using Wis instead of Dex with a Dex based skill, and the Agile Dancer trait allows making Perform (Dance) instead of Acrobatics checks. In addition, having a relatively low AC vs melee is much less of a problem for a larger sized initiator, having not only access to several counters which may flat out negate melee attacks, but is also much more often allowed an AoO which may stop an opponent from even closing to within its melee reach.

In short, outside of perhaps a few niche builds based on the magus or stalker, Str based melee builds are capable of easily outperforming their Dex based equivalents. This is still largely true if limited to Paizo options, though the Dex based melee builds will most likely be better for a larger number of build types, and have a greater advantage in earlier levels when AC vs melee matters more.

[Kurald Galain]

(ex: 16 base, 2 race, 2 level, 4 belt, 4 rage, 5 Strongclaw, 6 mutagen, 4 unbounded ability, up to 6 size).

I'm sure that's true if third-party material is allowed, but without that most of your argument melts away. In fact almost nothing of what you wrote is legal in a Paizo-only game.

This means that while Deadly Agility doesn't invalidate strength builds in a DSP game, having dex to damage without all that other third-party material does invalidate quite a number of builds. And this is why Paizo is making it hard to get dex to damage.

[Psyren]

Agreed - upho, your argument is based around the premise that third-party is already allowed (e.g. Defensive Expertise) and then building up the stat comparison from there. That makes it inherently fallacious.

In 1st-party, Dex is more valuable and therefore supplanting it is more costly.

[Coxswain]

11) Steel Hound Investigator 15

How do you do this? I don't see a class feature and the only investigator talent that comes online there as far as I know is Deafening Strike...

[Psyren]

How do you do this? I don't see a class feature and the only investigator talent that comes online there as far as I know is Deafening Strike...

At 11 you get Gunslinger Deeds -4; thus at 15 you can pick up Bleeding Wound. It's bleed damage so it's not quite as good, but it's still equal to your Dex mod.

[upho]

I'm sure that's true if third-party material is allowed, but without that most of your argument melts away. In fact almost nothing of what you wrote is legal in a Paizo-only game.I sorta agree (as I mentioned in my previous post) - in a game only allowing Deadly Agility but no other DSP options, many of the most significant options mentioned in my arguments won't be there. But keep in mind there's quite a few strong DSP options besides Deadly Agility which boosts Dex melee builds, making the competition a lot stiffer than what it would be in a Paizo-only game, and I think the main points of the arguments (not most of the examples) are still largely valid in a more high level and high-op game allowing only Paizo and Deadly Agility. Hence:
At least if we're talking about say mid-op or higher melee builds in a real game using all Paizo and DSP material... /snip/.
This is still largely true if limited to Paizo options, though the Dex based melee builds will most likely be better for a larger number of build types, and have a greater advantage in earlier levels when AC vs melee matters more....


This means that while Deadly Agility doesn't invalidate strength builds in a DSP game, having dex to damage without all that other third-party material does invalidate quite a number of builds. And this is why Paizo is making it hard to get dex to damage.
Agreed - upho, your argument is based around the premise that third-party is already allowed (e.g. Defensive Expertise) and then building up the stat comparison from there. That makes it inherently fallacious.First, "invalidate quite a number of builds" isn't the claim CharonsHelper made which I opposed (my emphasis):
Deadly Agility pretty much invalidates all STR builds.Second, and more importantly, this claim was made in response to the suggestion of convincing the DM to allow DSP material (not only Deadly Agility):
can always try to convince your dm to use Dsp materials and take the Deadly Agility feat ;)So no, my argument is most definitely not inherently fallacious.


In 1st-party, Dex is more valuable and therefore supplanting it is more costly.True. But this doesn't invalidate my arguments across the board; it mainly invalidates them during lower levels and for some build types (certainly not all of them and probably not even a majority of them).

A few examples and facts illustrating this:

The highest consistent melee DPR currently possible - during a majority of levels by a build viable in a real Paizo-only game - can probably be achieved by a ragebred natural attack bloodrider primalist abyssal bloodrager (or maybe draconic with dragon disciple?), with dips in MoMS monk and ragechemist alchemist, Greater Beast Totem, two vestigial arm discoveries (with claw attacks replacing monk unarmed strikes), Spirited Charge, Dragon Ferocity, Greater Eldritch Heritage (orc), Ferocious Beast and Improved Monstrous Mount (and perhaps also Ascetic Style?). This wouldn't change regardless of whether Deadly Agility is allowed or not. (A funny side note is that this is also probably true regardless of whether you allow all DSP options or not - the build would be similar but of course not identical).
Deadly Agility wouldn't make the urban barb/bloodrager no-brainer archetypes for barbs and bloodragers, even if no other DSP options are allowed.
Str is the superior stat for a large majority of melee control or debuff builds, regardless of whether Deadly Agility is allowed or not.
There are still more numerous, more significant and more easily accessible boosts and related options based on Str than on Dex in a Paizo-only game (such as Eldritch Heritage (orc), size increases being vastly superior to size decreases for melee, regular rage/bloodrage also increasing Con and not demanding an archetype, damage die size increases being more significant, basic combat functionality requiring far less investment, stat damage bonus multipliers such as 2-handed weapons, Horn of the Criosphinx and Dragon Ferocity being limited to Str, all Power Attack dependent options being inaccessible with only Piranha Strike, etc, etc).

That said, with Deadly Agility you do of course gain more from a high Dex aside from damage than you do from a high Str, so of course there would be a significantly larger number of builds gaining from being Dex based in a Paizo-only game with Deadly Agility than in a game also allowing all other DSP options.

Aside especially for Kurald: In my current game (heavily modified RotRL), the far most optimized PC build is the small-sized Dex based hexcrafter magus (you'd probably love the build :smalltongue:). Even though she's mostly damage oriented and has Deadly Agility, and is certainly capable of the greatest peak damage output in the party, her most important contributions in the more challenging combats have so far just as often been buff and especially debuff, while the most significant damage have often been provided by the party's charge-focused Str-based natural attack wrathblood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?442363-Wrathblood-The-Monster-Bloodrager-Archetype-New-and-Improved-Monstrous-Thread!) primalist bloodrager (having no DSP options).

This is mainly because it's often more difficult for her to put her great damage potential to use. For example, she often needs more prep rounds to really get her damage going, and despite her higher AC, she's still much more dependent on defensive buffs like mirror image than the two Str based melee builds in the party (mentioned bloodrager and a warder), otherwise often leaving her far too vulnerable to combat maneuvers and related melee abilities. In addition, her lower Fort and Will saves vs magic have caused problems a few times. This is of course only anecdotal "evidence" drawn from a not exactly standard game, with an inexperienced magus player in a group otherwise consisting of very experienced players, but from this limited experience of a Dex based magus with Deadly Agility, I'd say while the actual benefit is of course noticeable, it's not nearly as game breaking significant as many seem to believe, even on a high-op build in a game lacking other DSP options.

[illyahr]

I agree that a Dex-based build has the potential to be, overall, more powerful than a Str-based one. However, the difference doesn't amount to much more than who does more overage damage. If you have a 2-hander Barbarian and a TWF Dex Rogue, both fighting a creature with 20 HP, it doesn't matter that the rogue did 60 while the barb did 45. The creature is equally dead.

Other than that, Strength builds are more likely to have a higher Con score as well, making Dex builds weaker against poisons and debilitating spells. In addition, as upho stated, a Dex build will be less resistant to a BFC-style target as CMD is based on both Dex and Strength, as well as size modifiers.

Is a Dex build with Dex to damage stronger overall? Yes. Is it game breaking? As much as a Barbarian who can kill a boss in a single swing or a Bard who can talk any adversary into joining his team. If a player can make it work, let them feel heroic. There are always ways around things like this.

[CharonsHelper]

Other than that, Strength builds are more likely to have a higher Con score as well, making Dex builds weaker against poisons and debilitating spells.

Why? Actually - since the STR build still needs a decent DEX, while the DEX build doesn't need STR at all, they actually have more stat points to put towards CON.

[upho]

I agree that a Dex-based build has the potential to be, overall, more powerful than a Str-based one. However, the difference doesn't amount to much more than who does more overage damage. If you have a 2-hander Barbarian and a TWF Dex Rogue, both fighting a creature with 20 HP, it doesn't matter that the rogue did 60 while the barb did 45. The creature is equally dead.Why are you only looking at melee damage? What about reach, combat maneuvers, demoralization, etc?


Other than that, Strength builds are more likely to have a higher Con score as well, making Dex builds weaker against poisons and debilitating spells.I also wonder where this is coming from. AFAIK, this is only likely to be true for rage builds.


Is a Dex build with Dex to damage stronger overall? Yes. Is it game breaking? As much as a Barbarian who can kill a boss in a single swing or a Bard who can talk any adversary into joining his team.I don't think this is quite true in a Paizo-only game allowing Deadly Agility. It's more that builds/classes currently Dex based just as often as Str based will be no-brainer Dex based (TWF builds), and some currently no-brainer Str based will become just as viable Dex based. Those going Dex will gain some AC, initiative and Dex based skills, sometimes at the cost of damage and especially BFC/debuff power. Other than that, I think there won't be any significant differences, notably not even to actual DPR since TWF builds will still struggle with action economy and feat starvation.


If a player can make it work, let them feel heroic. There are always ways around things like this.This I agree with. Which is why allow DSP options in my game.

[Snowbluff]

Because Dexterity also increases your AC, Reflex saves and (arguably) more important skills. If it applies to damage rolls without investment, then Strength is largely redundant; given the choice, Dexterity would always be the better stat.

This is my argument.

As for two hinders, making more attacks (like a natural attack buil)would cause dex to greatly over whelm str value.

[illyahr]

Why are you only looking at melee damage? What about reach, combat maneuvers, demoralization, etc?

Because reach allows for damage at longer range and I addressed combat maneuvers later.


I also wonder where this is coming from. AFAIK, this is only likely to be true for rage builds.

If you want to maximize strength, rage builds are best for it. From what I understood of the discussion, it was whether amping strength or dexterity was better. Have I misunderstood the premise of the discussion?


I don't think this is quite true in a Paizo-only game allowing Deadly Agility. It's more that builds/classes currently Dex based just as often as Str based will be no-brainer Dex based (TWF builds), and some currently no-brainer Str based will become just as viable Dex based. Those going Dex will gain some AC, initiative and Dex based skills, sometimes at the cost of damage and especially BFC/debuff power. Other than that, I think there won't be any significant differences, notably not even to actual DPR since TWF builds will still struggle with action economy and feat starvation.

That's exactly what I said. With Dex-to-damage, a Dex-based build becomes a bit more viable than a Str-based one. The end results will be roughly the same however: a dead opponent.



This is my argument.

As for two hinders, making more attacks (like a natural attack buil)would cause dex to greatly over whelm str value.

Hey, Snow. :smallsmile:

Sure, a Dex-to-damage build is going to do more damage in a full attack, but that goes back to the basic problem of the system: getting a full attack in. Str-based builds, while weaker with full attacks, can optimize more damage into single strikes, such as with an Ubercharger build.


To clear things up, yes I agree that a Dex-based build would be stronger than a Str-based one. I'm simply saying that a Str-based one would be just as viable, and more useful in certain situations.

[upho]

As for two hinders, making more attacks (like a natural attack buil)would cause dex to greatly over whelm str value.Ehh...? You may not be completely wrong regarding TWF builds if Dex to damage was actually available for free (although Dex simply cannot "greatly overwhelm Str value" as there are more Str bonuses in the game), but especially a natural attack build would gain more by staying with Str since some of the best related options are limited to Str or more fitting with Str (Power Attack, Dragon Ferocity, bloodrager abyssal/draconic bloodline, etc).


Because reach allows for damage at longer range and I addressed combat maneuvers later.Tell you what, pretend melee damage can only be used to trigger and calculate related rider effects (such as the free demoralization from Cornugon Smash or the speed reduction from Wolf Style), but doesn't actually damage the target, and make a comparison between Str builds and Dex builds (with Deadly Agility). Then you'll get at what I'm talking about. :smalltongue:


If you want to maximize strength, rage builds are best for it. From what I understood of the discussion, it was whether amping strength or dexterity was better. Have I misunderstood the premise of the discussion?Well, maybe somewhat? Because even in a game with Deadly Agility, some builds without rage would still benefit more from going Str than Dex.


That's exactly what I said. With Dex-to-damage, a Dex-based build becomes a bit more viable than a Str-based one. The end results will be roughly the same however: a dead opponent.But the end results aren't necessarily roughly the same "a dead opponent". At all. For example, a demoralization build can reliably make every (non-immune) opponent within 30 ft. panic and make one opponent within melee reach cowering in every single round of every single fight, and a dirty trick build may reliably daze more than two targets within melee reach for three rounds in every single round of every single fight. These builds of course also deal damage, but that's usually more of a nice bonus that has little impact on their combat effectiveness.

Everything cannot be easily translated into damage, and damage is far from the only or necessarily the most effective tool for a melee build to focus on (although it typically is for TWF and Dex based builds).


Sure, a Dex-to-damage build is going to do more damage in a full attack, but that goes back to the basic problem of the system: getting a full attack in. Str-based builds, while weaker with full attacks, can optimize more damage into single strikes, such as with an Ubercharger build.Exactly. Though Str can still be pumped quite a bit higher than Dex and has access to better damage options, and may thus deal a lot more damage than any Dex build can, for example using natural attacks. And I'd say any übercharger worthy of the title has pounce or similar.

[Seppo87]

By the way you can use a two-handed weapon on a dex build.

Go Rogue 3 (unchained) then you either have Str13 or if you don't, Slayer and Ranger access styles that give Power Attack and most related feats.

Your weapon of choice is any 1-h or 2-h finesseable weapon.

Wether you go 2HW or TWF, on a dex build, consider being a halfling.
Halflings have a lot of unexplainably good feat choices, i.e. Risky Striker (this feat alone, combined iwth the +1 to hit and ac from size, changes everything)

[Kurald Galain]

Aside especially for Kurald: In my current game (heavily modified RotRL), the far most optimized PC build is the small-sized Dex based hexcrafter magus (you'd probably love the build :smalltongue:). Even though she's mostly damage oriented and has Deadly Agility, and is certainly capable of the greatest peak damage output in the party, her most important contributions in the more challenging combats have so far just as often been buff and especially debuff, while the most significant damage have often been provided by the party's charge-focused Str-based natural attack wrathblood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?442363-Wrathblood-The-Monster-Bloodrager-Archetype-New-and-Improved-Monstrous-Thread!) primalist bloodrager (having no DSP options).

Yes, I would :) It is indeed my experience that a Magus focusing on buff/debuff/utility is more effective than one focusing on pure damage. This means that both (1) dex to damage is not essential to playing one, and (2) having it anyway is not game-breaking in the slightest.

Within the context of threads like these ("why shouldn't my character get a big damage bonus?") the answer is that (a) you'll be fine without it; (b) balance-wise you'd be expected to pay one or more feats for it, in the least, TANSTAAFL; and (c) story-wise it doesn't make sense, so expect some GMs to block it for that reason.

[Snowbluff]

Ehh...? You may not be completely wrong regarding TWF builds if Dex to damage was actually available for free (although Dex simply cannot "greatly overwhelm Str value" as there are more Str bonuses in the game), but especially a natural attack build would gain more by staying with Str since some of the best related options are limited to Str or more fitting with Str (Power Attack, Dragon Ferocity, bloodrager abyssal/draconic bloodline, etc).


Power Attack only has a Str requirement. Next you'll be telling me Paladins should start with more than 12 Wis in 3.5. :smalltongue:

Abyssal's Str is actually quite bad if you're high level and have your WBL. The claws are nice. If you can spend the resources that you are using on more natural attacks (or combining it with TWF/MWF), rather than getting a little more damage, you're probably fine. Not using Monk/going for styles at all opens you up to further damage sources as well. For example, having full dex to damage and Sneak attack on say, a Vivisectionist, will basically destroy any pure strength build, with Dex being vital for filling the typical weaknesses of the style.

Of course, my x6 CL damage per attack archers would also be a lot better off, too. Of course this isn't fair, as they couldn't care less about stats when their hitting for 120 per arrow.:smallwink:

[upho]

Power Attack only has a Str requirement. Next you'll be telling me Paladins should start with more than 12 Wis in 3.5. :smalltongue:Ha ha! I've really been missing your posts! :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, my bad, I was still replying with the "dump Str"-mindset of many previous posters.


Abyssal's Str is actually quite bad if you're high level and have your WBL.Generally speaking, I think abyssal is one of the weaker bloodlines. But specifically for pure damage natural attackers with the bloodrider and primalist archetypes, abyssal simply rocks. Hard. In a very demonic, slightly silly black metal kinda way... :smallamused:

You can of course get the claws and Str boost by going draconic + 4 levels dragon disciple instead and bypass the additional AC penalty, but that way you won't get to share the Str boost with your mount (and you'll probably miss demonic bulk during most levels). Either way, you'll probably want to trade out all bloodline powers besides the claws (and abyssal bloodrage) for rage powers eventually.


The claws are nice. If you can spend the resources that you are using on more natural attacks (or combining it with TWF/MWF), rather than getting a little more damage, you're probably fine.You'll of course have the maximum number of natural attacks possible, so there won't be any additional natural attacks to spend resources on. In fact, you'll even have more natural attacks than is otherwise possible, using your Beast Totem claws via 2 levels of alchemist and Extra Discovery (for a pair of vestigial arms), replacing your monk unarmed strikes (which can be made using any body part unlike regular US)! :smalltongue:

I think combining natural attacks with TWF simply gives considerably less bang for the buck, being feat intense and imposing both attack penalties and major damage penalties to your many primary natural attacks. In addition, it doesn't allow using vestigial arms for additional full bab Dragon Ferocity attacks. Though especially with Ascetic Style, I believe TWF can be great for crit fishing or control/debuff builds (for example combined with a double-chained kama, Savage Dirty Trick, aberrant bloodrager and tetori for far reaching nasty grabbing dirty tricks).


Not using Monk/going for styles at all opens you up to further damage sources as well. For example, having full dex to damage and Sneak attack on say, a Vivisectionist, will basically destroy any pure strength build, with Dex being vital for filling the typical weaknesses of the style.As mentioned, the 1-level MoMS dip isn't merely for Feral Combat Training and Dragon Ferocity. I actually don't think anything gives a natural attacker as much for as little cost. And you think a Dex based Vivisectionist can get close to the Str 56+ ragebred bloodrager's four or five very accurate claw attacks dealing more than 160-185 on average, plus one or two auto-crit gores, the usual additional natural attacks (bite, sting, hooves) and four primary attacks from a huge nearly as strong griffon? If that's the case, please show me how!


Of course, my x6 CL damage per attack archers would also be a lot better off, too. Of course this isn't fair, as they couldn't care less about stats when their hitting for 120 per arrow.:smallwink:Hey, put away that cheese, it reeks of old sweaty Snowbluff caster feet!