Dresdenverse NeverNever vs DND Outer Planes

[Xar Zarath]

What are the differences between the two? Are they inherently the same? Is the dnd multiverse in fact just the nevernever by another name?

After all it is stated that the nevernever contains all the relevant afterlives and in dnd the outer planes are pretty much all the afterlives and then some...so what do playgrounders think?

[Florian]

That´s a tough one.

The NeverNever seems to be a mix of the regular "Afterlife" with a hint of irish faerie tales, and that´s basically it. Good enough, but the Great Wheel simply offers more perspectives and viewpoints.

[Hecuba]

What are the differences between the two? Are they inherently the same? Is the dnd multiverse in fact just the nevernever by another name?

After all it is stated that the nevernever contains all the relevant afterlives and in dnd the outer planes are pretty much all the afterlives and then some...so what do playgrounders think?

The Dresdenverse cosmology is very different than that of D&D. The NeverNever would correspond to a single plane in D&D cosmology: once you get there, you can travel within it to all the assorted realms of it without opening another Way. We see Faerie most often, but there are explicitly other non-fay realms and the NeverNever is itself explicitly infinite. You can even reach the outer gate and (setting aside the immense consequences of doing so) walk right past it into what D&D would regard as the far realm.

In contrast, pretty much every D&D cosmology has the different realms that make it up as self-contained planes. Baring the presence of some portal, if you want to walk to the City of Brass it won't matter if you are starting in Hades or in New York - you'll need to shift planes either way. In effect, the Dresden-verse gives a place of privileged to the Prime Material by setting a dualism of [The Prime Material] vs. [NeverNever], where D&D generally makes the Prime Material one plane along many.



There are certainly overlaps. The traits of the NeverNever map very well to the planar traits used in D&D. It is Highly Morphic, and certain places of it seem to be Divinely Morphic as well. The flow of time and distance is inconsistent. You get there from the prime by something that is fairly similar to Plane Shift.


In effect, the overall situation can be summarized thus: the geography of the cosmology is vastly different from anything D&D uses, but they serve similar narrative purposes and involve similar environmental/planar effects.

[Xar Zarath]

Ah I see. So the Nevernever instead expresses all the Outer Planes in a single place, reachable through a single point. A fellow just walks and suddenly is in the underworld or Elysium etc...

Whereas DND cosmology has to have the character actually shifting to whatever plane he needs to go but the fact is that he must shift across the planes.

[Prime32]

In contrast, pretty much every D&D cosmology has the different realms that make it up as self-contained planes. Baring the presence of some portal, if you want to walk to the City of Brass it won't matter if you are starting in Hades or in New York - you'll need to shift planes either way. In effect, the Dresden-verse gives a place of privileged to the Prime Material by setting a dualism of [The Prime Material] vs. [NeverNever], where D&D generally makes the Prime Material one plane along many.

Whereas DND cosmology has to have the character actually shifting to whatever plane he needs to go but the fact is that he must shift across the planes.
Nah, you can walk from one Upper Plane to another by following the River Oceanus, and from one Lower Plane to another (as well as the Astral Plane) by following the River Styx. In some depictions the Elemental Planes border each other and have regions along the edge where two elements mix.

[Manyasone]

Nah, you can walk from one Upper Plane to another by following the River Oceanus, and from one Lower Plane to another (as well as the Astral Plane) by following the River Styx. In some depictions the Elemental Planes border each other and have regions along the edge where two elements mix.
While this is true, if I recall my Planescape lore correctly, the actual distance isn't measurable in mere miles/kilometers

[Braininthejar2]

It seems more like the Umbra in the old World of Darkness. Parts of it overlap normal reality, but walk far enough, and things start getting mythical.

[the_david]

While this is true, if I recall my Planescape lore correctly, the actual distance isn't measurable in mere miles/kilometers

Actually, there's this thing called the Great Modron March. It involves Modrons marching a full circle through all the outer planes. There's even an adventure or 2 that focuses on the subject.

In theory you could guesstimate the size of the outer planes using the time it takes to complete one march and the average speed of the slowest modrons. Just don't expect the answer to make any sense. It has to do with fantasy writers not being able to grasp the concept of time and science fiction writers not being able to grasp the concept of distance. I bet there's a trope about it.

[Manyasone]

Actually, there's this thing called the Great Modron March. It involves Modrons marching a full circle through all the outer planes. There's even an adventure or 2 that focuses on the subject.

In theory you could guesstimate the size of the outer planes using the time it takes to complete one march and the average speed of the slowest modrons. Just don't expect the answer to make any sense. It has to do with fantasy writers not being able to grasp the concept of time and science fiction writers not being able to grasp the concept of distance. I bet there's a trope about it.

I know this adventure, friend, I actually played it ;-) and indeed the answers don't make sense

[Falcon X]

There are much about the Planes that don't make sense.

The rule, I believe, is that you can't walk from one plane to the next. You need to hop through a portal (that takes you through the Astral) How could you walk from one to the next? They are all infinite!
The known exceptions to that rule are the River Styx, the River Oceanus, and the World Tree. The Modron's also seem to know an exception. There may be dozens more exceptions.
People have all sorts of theories to the dark of it, but I don't think there is a provable statement among them.

The Inner Planes are just as confusing. Both Fire and Earth are infinite planes, but at some point they meet and create the Plane of Magma, which is itself infinite...

Point is, it's supposed to be beyond our mortal comprehension, something that wizards and scientists won't admit, but your average berk knows to be true.

[Manyasone]

And the infinite staircase is also a means to 'fast-travel' the planes... I'm a big fan of Butcher's Dresdenverse and I found that indeed the Nevernever has similarities to Fey realms from old celtic lore. But at the edge, where the war is happening it is more like the Far realm

[the_david]

There are much about the Planes that don't make sense.

The rule, I believe, is that you can't walk from one plane to the next. You need to hop through a portal (that takes you through the Astral) How could you walk from one to the next? They are all infinite!
The known exceptions to that rule are the River Styx, the River Oceanus, and the World Tree. The Modron's also seem to know an exception. There may be dozens more exceptions.
People have all sorts of theories to the dark of it, but I don't think there is a provable statement among them.

The Inner Planes are just as confusing. Both Fire and Earth are infinite planes, but at some point they meet and create the Plane of Magma, which is itself infinite...

Point is, it's supposed to be beyond our mortal comprehension, something that wizards and scientists won't admit, but your average berk knows to be true.

Actually, the planes are infinitely finite. It is possible to walk from one plane to the next, it just takes a really really long time.

[Xar Zarath]

Actually, the planes are infinitely finite. It is possible to walk from one plane to the next, it just takes a really really long time.

So you have to want to know where you're going and then poof, you're suddenly there? Or one could also say that the plane itself will "move" accordingly to allow entities movement between one plane to another?

[Eldan]

It's different on different planes. Some have relatively normal geography, it's just infinite. On those, crossing over would basically be a matter of knowing the right places to do so. Others have weird geography. In the outlands, all travel takes the same amount of time. It takes around two weeks to get to any specific point beyond the horizon. If on the way back, you want to stop at a point in between, it would take you two weeks to get to that point, then two weeks back to your start. In Elysium, travel is only possible if you help others while travelling. THe more you help, the faster you will be.