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ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-06, 08:15 PM
Okay, was going over Complete Mage and ran across something that made me double-take

The Master Specialist PrC didn't really seem like all that... useful. At least not at first. Figured it was another one of those 'sacrifice yet another school to get stuff' thing, like the Red Wizard. However, it doesn't seem like you loose another college, you just get better at the one you have. And some of the abilities granted... well, some suck, and some seriously do not.

In particular, Illusionist, which is already a VERY powerful school to specialize in (Bar enchantment and Evocation) because the bonuses to saves are good, and there's a lot of shut-down battlefield control spells in it. Not to mention sheer cussed good fun. I got to the moderate school esoterica and my jaw dropped. He gains concealment. Period. So he's always walking around as though he had concealment, eh? Dayum. Okay, the 20% miss chance is okay, not stellar but not bad. But what is really nice is that makes him completely immune to any rogue without the Improved Precise Shot feat. Even if he does get flat-footed, or flanked, he still has concealment.

So an already strong specialization gets a fairly crack ability and looses nothing... is it just me or is there no reason to NOT take this PrC if you're going specialist?

MandibleBones
2007-07-06, 08:20 PM
But does it have full casting progression?

Aximili
2007-07-06, 08:20 PM
Isn't the moderate school esoterica available for a few rounds after you cast a spell of that school?
EDIT:
Each ability is triggered automatically when you cast a spell of your chosen school and lasts for a number of rounds equal to the spell's level.

By the way, eventhough it's as good as you seem to think, there is no reason not to take this PrC, just like with many other wizard PrCs.

Douglas
2007-07-06, 08:24 PM
Read the top of the Moderate Esoterica section. He only gets that bonus for a short time after casting an illusion. Granted, it's still a useful ability, but not quite so powerful as you thought, especially given that any illusionist can already get concealment by casting Blur.

It's a useful PrC for specialists but not hugely powerful, and you do lose the wizard bonus feat at level 5 if you take advantage of the unusually early entry in addition to familiar advancement and, of course, giving up whatever other PrC you might have been considering.

MeklorIlavator
2007-07-06, 08:29 PM
It's a useful PrC for specialists but not hugely powerful, and you do lose the wizard bonus feat at level 5 if you take advantage of the unusually early entry
Considering you gain two feats, both of which are common Requirements for other classes, its not such a big deal.

in addition to familiar advancement and, of course,And this is bad how? I understand the roleplaying aspect, in fact I rather like them, but from the power aspect, Familiars are a big no-no. Much better not to even have one.
giving up whatever other PrC you might have been considering.Huh? You could always take up the nest one whenever the normal entry level is. There's no official limit on the number of PrC's you can take levels in, and no one forces you to completely follow the class to completion.

Gralamin
2007-07-06, 08:37 PM
Read the top of the Moderate Esoterica section. He only gets that bonus for a short time after casting an illusion. Granted, it's still a useful ability, but not quite so powerful as you thought, especially given that any illusionist can already get concealment by casting Blur.

It's a useful PrC for specialists but not hugely powerful, and you do lose the wizard bonus feat at level 5 if you take advantage of the unusually early entry in addition to familiar advancement and, of course, giving up whatever other PrC you might have been considering.

Bah. Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/IotSV 7.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-07-06, 09:45 PM
wats IotSV?

and i think its Comp Mage that it says u can sacrafice ur farmilar so u can hav a spell u use once a day as a spell like abilaty, from ur school of specalization.

Dhavaer
2007-07-06, 09:47 PM
wats IotSV?

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

Kizara
2007-07-06, 09:50 PM
wats IotSV?

and i think its Comp Mage that it says u can sacrafice ur farmilar so u can hav a spell u use once a day as a spell like abilaty, from ur school of specalization.

Initiate of the Seven-Fold Veil.
I think it's in Carcane.

And I'm sure someone will be so kind as to explain how/why its quite broken.

EDIT: Ninja'd by a Titan, ouch. Gotta work on me Spots checks.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-07-06, 09:51 PM
hm, is that from eberon? or wat book is it in?

EDIT: oh ok

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-07, 07:13 AM
I understand the roleplaying aspect, in fact I rather like them, but from the power aspect, Familiars are a big no-no. Much better not to even have one.

I disagree. Gray Elf Wizard with a Hummingbird familiar using the Elven Substitution levels of Wizard. Along with the familiar-increasing spells from Spell Compendium(Imbue Familiar with Spell-like Ability?) and any "I transform into X" spell is a reason to have a familiar around.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-07, 09:31 AM
In particular, Illusionist, which is already a VERY powerful school to specialize in (Bar enchantment and Evocation)

Evocation? Dude, that hasn't been powerful since after 2nd ed.

The Glyphstone
2007-07-07, 09:45 AM
I think he means "bar" as in "ban, give up" - I.e., he agrees with you, evocation isn't powerful, and thus can be spared.

Especially since Shadow Evocation, an Illusion spell, lets you get it right back. :)

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-07, 10:17 AM
I think he means "bar" as in "ban, give up" - I.e., he agrees with you, evocation isn't powerful, and thus can be spared.

Especially since Shadow Evocation, an Illusion spell, lets you get it right back. :)

Yea, that's my idea... give up the worthless evocation and then make a tough choice and decide on Enchantment. True, Enchantment has a lot of battlefield control and Save or Suck/Save or Loose, but Illusion has most of those Will Save or Screwed stuff in there as well to compensate.

Use Shadow Evocation and Greater Shadow Evocation for the few worthwhile spells in Evocation (Contingency and Forcecage being the big two I can think of offhand).

Thanks for the feedback, I didn't read too carefully, I guess. Looks like he'll have to don that Cloak of Displacement (lesser) to get Immunity to Rogues after all. Of course, any wizard with enough cash to buy one of those pretty much has enough ways to get around being hit by a rogue in the first place, so it's rather pointless. Mirror Image > Blur or Displacement any day of the week. 17.5% chance > 50% > 80% chance of hitting.

Being able to cast Still, Silent, Eschewed Illusion spells at no additional cost, however, still rocks the house. Can't counterspell it if you can't tell when he's casting, after all.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-07-07, 11:12 AM
Yup. It's kind of odd how mismatched the school abilities are, though. Some Master Specialists suck and some are amazing. You'd think they would've shot for a roughly balanced effect.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-07, 11:52 AM
Yup. It's kind of odd how mismatched the school abilities are, though. Some Master Specialists suck and some are amazing. You'd think they would've shot for a roughly balanced effect.
That's the problem all over when it comes to further specialization tricks. In Core, there aren't any good feats for demonstrating further devotion to a specialty if your school doesn't have a lot of saves associated with it, as (Greater) Spell Focus is the only channel. And when additions are made in various splatbooks and Dragon Magazine, Spell Focus is almost always a prerequisite. The real problem there is even if further specialty feats and abilities are near the same power level (they never are), schools such as Abjuration and Divination should be more powerful, since they have a useless prerequisite. It's just terrible.

HidaTsuzua
2007-07-07, 12:32 PM
Master Specialist is a PrC that I like (I've always been a fan of specialist wizards even when it was hard to be one in 2ed). The specialized school abilities do need more balancing in respect to each other though. Some are nice (true seeing with divination, transmutations last a turn longer when dispelled), others rock hardcore (+2 DC illusion, super charm enchantment), others just suck (transmutation damage when saved). Master Specialist does however put you in a prime position for archmage as well. You save a feat with Skill Focus(Spellcraft) given to you. You also can go Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/Archmage 5/Whatever 2.

Ever Phasm
2007-07-07, 02:39 PM
A critical part of Master Specialist that seem to be forgotten is its roleplaying use.

You have a wizard who naturally loves the complexity of a sentient creatures mind, so he goes to school and takes those extra enchantment magic classes. He is now a master specialist and devotes all his time to advancing his knowledge of enchantment magic. Eventually he returns to his old school once a year to give a talk to all the students on enchantment magic.

This is just an example. There are many other uses for Master Specialist (which in most situations is not game breaking) involving back stories and plot ideas.

For DMs: What better way to motivate the abjuration master specialist then to have NPC's spread a rumour of a powerful magical protection on your dungeon?