Enchantments on sleeping targets.

[Reaper34]

how would you rule on the effects of different enchantment spells on sleeping targets.

suggestion used on the sleeping ruler to convince him his trused advisers were conspiring against him.

charm person or friends on the sleeping guard outside a cell to convince him to beleave you're innocent.

looking for other ideas and how you might rule on them.

[BiPolar]

Sadly, I'd rule against those. Given there is a specific spell, dream, that is made to do this anything that requires someone to hear and understand I'd say they must be conscious.

[Reaper34]

Fair enough, though just to clarafy. this is not to put them to sleep. this is using normal enchantment spells to manipulate someone while they are sleeping. to strike at the subconcious mind so to speak.

but one vote no anyone else?

[Callin]

Intersting take. I would say if ya did it enough over a long period of time I would make it stick. Months though.

[BiPolar]

Also, are we talking magical sleep or regular? Assuming regular, I'd be making checks to see if the target wakes up (like DC 10 or less).

[NNescio]

Fair enough, though just to clarafy. this is not to put them to sleep. this is using normal enchantment spells to manipulate someone while they are sleeping. to strike at the subconcious mind so to speak.

but one vote no anyone else?

Charm Person and Friends would definitely 'work' (giving you advantage on Charisma checks). Trying to make meaningful Charisma checks while the other party is sleeping is another story though. I mean, sure, it would have some subliminal effect, but not much, those spells aren't outright mind control, so it's just the same as talking to a sleeping person normally, except you have advantage (and the Charmed target regards you as a friend, whatever that means for a sleeping person).

Suggestion would most likely not work, however, because while a sleeping target can hear you, I don't think it can understand you meaningfully while it's still in dreamland.

The spell intended to mess with sleeping targets is Dream, but that's a much higher level spell (5th).

[Reaper34]

Intersting take. I would say if ya did it enough over a long period of time I would make it stick. Months though.

so something a long term prisoner might use to escape, or evil new queen might use on the king but not a quick fix.

i was assuming regular sleep. but magical sleep could open interesting lines of thought.

a discussion on dream was kinda what started this line of thought. kinda what came before the dream spell.

in said discussion it was assumed that while awake the caster would try to set up out of place events or work on convincing the receiver of whatever agenda the caster had. or was trying to avoid some of the naster sideeffects of spells.

like friends the person likes you then it ends and he knows you cast a spell on him and now doesn't like you. if the person is asleep either they don't remember that you cast a spell or you can just claim they had a bad dream. after all why would you cast a spell on them while they were asleep.

more of a subversion method than outright "you do this."

[BurgerBeast]

I would consider a sleeping creature to be unconscious. (This is not supported by RAW, but I couldn't find RAW for being asleep. I did notice however, that most magical sleep effects cause the unconscious condition.)

• An unconscious creature is incapacitated (see the condition), can’t move or speak, and is unaware of its surroundings
• The creature drops whatever it’s holding and falls prone.
• The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.
• Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.

So far as I can tell, on this basis, suggestion should fail because it works on a creature that "can hear and understand you," which goes against "is unaware of its surroundings."

As for charm person, it should work. I would rule that you could charm someone who is asleep, but you would not know if it worked until you woke them up, and then they would remain charmed if the spell succeeded.

Again, I can't confirm that sleeping creatures are unconscious by RAW, so this is just my personal ruling.

[edit: I did find this tidbit: "...except when incapacitated by something other than nonmagical sleep" (Weapon of Warning, DMG 213). It implies that nonmagical sleep does cause one to be incapacitated.

Then this: "For example, if a character is in a state such as sleep, that lacks consciousness, you can say the character is unconscious" (Using Tracking and Conditions, DMG 248, emphasis added). I'd say this still leaves enough room that is not necessarily RAW.]

[R.Shackleford]

I would consider a sleeping creature to be unconscious. (This is not supported by RAW, but I couldn't find RAW for being asleep. I did notice however, that most magical sleep effects cause the unconscious condition.)

• An unconscious creature is incapacitated (see the condition), can’t move or speak, and is unaware of its surroundings
• The creature drops whatever it’s holding and falls prone.
• The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.
• Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.

So far as I can tell, on this basis, suggestion should fail because it works on a creature that "can hear and understand you," which goes against "is unaware of its surroundings."

As for charm person, it should work. I would rule that you could charm someone who is asleep, but you would not know if it worked until you woke them up, and then they would remain charmed if the spell succeeded.

Again, I can't confirm that sleeping creatures are unconscious by RAW, so this is just my personal ruling.

[edit: I did find this tidbit: "...except when incapacitated by something other than nonmagical sleep" (Weapon of Warning, DMG 213). It implies that nonmagical sleep does cause one to be incapacitated.

Then this: "For example, if a character is in a state such as sleep, that lacks consciousness, you can say the character is unconscious" (Using Tracking and Conditions, DMG 248, emphasis added). I'd say this still leaves enough room that is not necessarily RAW.]

Well, 5e is supposed to use basic english... So unconscious would work well enough for this case. I mean, there is a chance to be awaken but for the most part you are unaware of your surroundings.

[Dalebert]

like friends the person likes you then it ends and he knows you cast a spell on him and now doesn't like you. if the person is asleep either they don't remember that you cast a spell or you can just claim they had a bad dream. after all why would you cast a spell on them while they were asleep.

more of a subversion method than outright "you do this."

Friends and Charm Person say the person realizes they were under a spell. This has nothing to do with them seeing you cast a spell. The point is the spell is affecting their free will while its in effect and it's strong enough for them to be aware when it passes. Upon reflection, they realize they were enchanted and they know who they were enchanted to have undo appeal toward so they conclude that person must have enchanted them. I don't see how this would get around that anymore than casting the spell while peaking around the corner in a busy tavern or casting it with subtle spell. Neither of those changes the fact that the person realizes they were under a spell so I don't see how being asleep would.