When did stalking become "romantic"?

[Dragonexx]

In a lot of popular romance stories I've had the misfortune to see, things that would be seen as abusive or just plain creepy are portrayed as a sign that they truly love or care about you? Why? Why are things like stalking your love interest, being controlling or possessive, or playing mind games considered a good things?

Also, before you start on some unwarrented gender issues bull****, I've seen this done both ways.

[Grinner]

That's not a trope that comes to mind when I think "romance novel"...Maybe you're getting a biased sample?

Edit: Hmm...On second thought, I guess Edward did sneak into Bella's room at one point in Twilight...Could that be characterized as a romantic scene?

[Lethologica]

Many, if not most, abusers don't consider themselves abusers. When movie-makers tell the story from the perspective of the person engaging in the abusive "romantic" behavior, it's the same thing. The insecurity of an abusive partner or would-be partner makes for easy drama (or comedy), and as long as the other person comes around eventually, it's easily written off as 'doing crazy things for love'. The idea that the other person shouldn't come around is dismissed, because of protagonist-centered morality.

[Prime32]

Really liked how Jessica Jones dealt with this:

Kilgrave: Oh, my god. Jessica, I knew you were insecure, but that's just sad. I'm not torturing you. Why would I? I love you.
Jessica: You have been ruining my life...
Kilgrave: You didn't have a life.
Jessica: ...as a demented declaration of love?
Kilgrave: I was trying to show you what I see. I'm the only one who matches you. Who challenges you. Who'll do anything for you.
Jessica: This is a sick joke. You have killed innocent people.
[...]
Jessica: I'll come with you. To protect them. Not out of choice. You know me well. We can work out the rest.
Kilgrave: Oh, please! I am new to love, but I do know what it looks like! I do watch television.

[Darth Ultron]

Forever, from day one.

the first stories made have people quite literately hunting and stalking each other for love. And you can find lots of stories from all around the world where people stalk, kidnap and worse for ''love''.

And then you get to romantic comedies of the last fifty years or so.....and anyone that is not Disney kids stuff, will likely have stalking, or worse. The basic plot after all is two people meet, one stalks one until they break down and fall in love..and then have a whirlwind romance...and a fight and break up..and make up right before the credits.

Of course a move has the problem of how to fit ''a love story'' into less then two hours. And it is really trick to fit in the ''meeting'' part. While the bump on the street works to start....they can't afford to dwell on the ''long term real life like getting to know each other''....so they turn to ''stalking''.

Ultimately ''stalking'' is just like any other thing, movies are not exactly accurate....but everyone just turns a blind eye.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I mean, Perault's Sleeping Beauty features the Prince kissing her in her sleep, when she doesn't even know him. That's kinda weird, and it's not new.

[Sermil]

Well, at least since people thought Every Breath You Take was a romantic song... (Fun fact, the author wrote it as a creepy song and is a little weird-ed out when people treat it as 'romantic' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Breath_You_Take))

[MLai]

Stalking is romantic ever since it has been evolutionarily beneficial to stalk a lust interest, i.e. since forever. Let's consider the statistically obvious genders.

- If you're a perfect gentleman and does not pursue any woman for fear that you may offend... you will, with 100% probability, not pass on your offspring in those scenarios where you act that way.
- If you act like a predatory jackass... you will get laid sometimes, and possibly pass on your jackass genes in some of those scenarios.

Overtime, predatory jackasses pass on more offspring than perfect gentlemen.

[Winter_Wolf]

Well, at least since people thought Every Breath You Take was a romantic song... (Fun fact, the author wrote it as a creepy song and is a little weird-ed out when people treat it as 'romantic' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Breath_You_Take))

Ah man I read this thread title and the Stalker Song was the first thing I thought of. Everyone I know calls it the Stalker Song. It's not exactly on the slow dance rotation back home, y'know what I'm sayin'? I guess we could call it the Big Beother is Watching Song (well they ARE The Police :smallwink:) but it doesn't really roll off the tongue.

[Metahuman1]

Ah man I read this thread title and the Stalker Song was the first thing I thought of. Everyone I know calls it the Stalker Song. It's not exactly on the slow dance rotation back home, y'know what I'm sayin'? I guess we could call it the Big Beother is Watching Song (well they ARE The Police :smallwink:) but it doesn't really roll off the tongue.

And yet it's the joke Capital Steps went with when they needed to spoof the NSA.

[TIPOT]

I mean, Perault's Sleeping Beauty features the Prince kissing her in her sleep, when she doesn't even know him. That's kinda weird, and it's not new.

Pretty sure in some versions he flat out rapes her and has kids, then one of her children sucks out the splinter? :smallyuk: Grim fairy tales are a bit yik.

I'm pretty sure stalking has always been "romantic" to some extent. Most romance require some degree of dedication from both parts which can seem/be slightly creepy if it's not responded too positively. There's a pretty fine line between a nice romantic gesture and a creepy stalker move and if the romance isn't well done it can definitely stray into that territory.

[Ramza00]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StalkingIsLove

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StalkerWithACrush

Note the 2nd link is actually just a title page for 15 more links, since it happens so often in literature, anime, tv, etc each of those separate categories get their own page.

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When did stalking become "romantic"?
It is part of the human condition where some CREEPs think it is romantic and they just do not get boundaries and the word no.

But when did it become popular or tropy enough that people just associate Stalking->Romance? Well probably not until after the printing press for you have to have enough common literature for it to become something. The sentimental romantic novels (contrast this to heroic romantic novels) did not start until the mid 1700s. Note these early sentimental romantic novels is a different genre compared to the next paragraph.

Starting in the mid 1760s but really not being a serious genre till this genre begins to to peak around 1800 and still continuing strong 1850 we get a period of writting called the Romantic period of english literature where people instead of trying to write historical or realistic worlds were trying to write surreal / romantic / fantastical worlds. One of the things the romantics wrote was lots of horror / proto horror but another thing they liked writting about was sexual and romantic fantasies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novel#19th_century_novel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism

Now starting about the 1840s on we enter the Victorian part of English Literature and one of the things they did was continue some of the romantic types of writting of the previous era. One of the big significant things that is different about the Victorian era was during the previous decades many laws were created that now allowed the writers to capitalize and make money with their writings due to the concept of royalties. Because of this this Book Writing became a big business and we get a self regenerating cycle where it was in the artist's interest to arouse such feelings in you with one book, only to encourage you out of emotion (feelings such as thrill, arouse, or horrify) the next book for the book made it easier to create such feelings inside your soul, introducing new types of sensations and experiences.

------

So while stalking is romance is not anything new it is old as humanity and thus you can conceptualize it is old as time, it become its own meme and self-perpetual (where it creates its own cycle indefinitely) is something new and I say is less than 250 years old, aka only 12 or 13 generations old.

[BannedInSchool]

Maybe some of it is also that in a story you want to have some conflict and tension. If the end result is that they're going to live happily ever after then you need something pushing toward that and something away. That one of the parties just doesn't want to go toward that happy ending is an immediate solution. Hmm, that also makes them the villain that's trying to ruin the happy ending and if they do that's not good. Then you get the furious rejection freak-out and now we have a horror movie. People suck.

[Eldan]

Pretty sure in some versions he flat out rapes her and has kids, then one of her children sucks out the splinter? :smallyuk: Grim fairy tales are a bit yik.


That's not the Grimm version, though. The Grimms very carefully edited out all the sex.

[Grinner]

I'm pretty sure stalking has always been "romantic" to some extent. Most romance require some degree of dedication from both parts which can seem/be slightly creepy if it's not responded too positively. There's a pretty fine line between a nice romantic gesture and a creepy stalker move and if the romance isn't well done it can definitely stray into that territory.

That might be it...Reactions seem to determine whether an action is romantic or not, not the action itself. Reactions are in turn influenced by the pre-existing relationship (or so I would imagine).

Edit: Well, I think there's more to it than that, though...Reactions would also seem to be influenced by the preferences of the recipient.

[Olinser]

Since Twilight.

I seem to recall reading an article that said that the Bella-Sparkly dynamic demonstrated something like 17 signs of an abusive relationship according to the National Domestic Violence center.

[Lethologica]

Since Twilight.

I seem to recall reading an article that said that the Bella-Sparkly dynamic demonstrated something like 17 signs of an abusive relationship according to the National Domestic Violence center.
Twilight is sadly only the leading edge of the latest wave in one particular section of romance. It's a grand old tradition.

[Zaydos]

Pretty sure in some versions he flat out rapes her and has kids, then one of her children sucks out the splinter? :smallyuk: Grim fairy tales are a bit yik.

That'd be Giambattista Basile's Talia, Sun and Moon accredited often enough as the oldest version of Sleeping Beauty despite having another version predate it in print by 100 years, not fitting the archetype particularly well and showing odd embellishments which is used elsewhere as the tell-tale sign of not being the original, and being predated by the story of Brynhild in the Volsunga Saga which fits the archetype more closely and was in print over 300 years before Giambattista's and isn't considered a Sleeping Beauty story because... it's an Icelandic Saga and thus Nordic myth and... I don't even know.

That said I can't recall if Sigurd kissed Brynhild before he pulled the magical thorn out and woke her or not, but Sleeping Beauty stories are at least more than 700 years old.

[Tvtyrant]

Always. Tribal weddings where you "kidnap" your spouse, pretty much half of the love songs in existence (including female on male (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9I8Gvqjv4I)ones), ancient myths, the movie The Graduate, I could go on but for brevity's sake won't.

The reason why there is a controversy is pretty obvious; it is both creepy and flattering to have someone be obsessed with you. Almost everyone lives in an environment where only a few people care about what they do, how they feel, and whether they even show up dead or alive. Having someone who feels you are the most important thing in their life flatters our sense of self-importance, while at the same time it can be very dangerous and not at all what we want. (I had a stalker previously, this is from personal experience).

Edit: Also there is a recurring sense that you in some way led the other person on, that it is your fault that they are like/doing this.

[BannedInSchool]

The reason why there is a controversy is pretty obvious; it is both creepy and flattering to have someone be obsessed with you.
I was going to also say that in fiction it's usually the understanding that everything will work out in the end, so maybe the audience can go along for the ride comfortably trusting that nothing bad will happen. Now I'm thinking a lot of relationship stuff may also seem really great for some people if you trust them and really effing creepy if you don't or from the outside looking at it. "You're mine," ferinstance. Edit: Oh, but don't imagine I'm trying to speak with any authority here. Just thinking and blabbing.

[Fawkes]

Fun fact - the current usage of the word 'stalking', as seen in this thread, has only been around for about 20 years.

So, to answer your question, the 90s.

[Jay R]

It goes back at least as far as Paris kidnapping Helen of Troy and starting the Trojan War. Several examples in Arthurian romances, Renaissance poetry, etc.

It stopped being romantic relatively recently.

[Frozen_Feet]

Have you ever watched cats in heat? Or nature documentaries?

The line between stalking and courtship is blurry because there's heavy overlap between seeking a mate and seeking prey. In both cases, it's beneficial to observe the actions of the target, try to seize a moment when they're vulnerable, to be proactive and determined etc..

Asking where's the line between stalking and courting is like asking what's the difference between battery and a boxing match. A lot of the time, it depends on mutuality of feeling, on both parties explicitly or tacitly agreeing that this what they signed for.

[Ramza00]

People were looking at some of the really old things (like sleeping beauty and helen of troy) here is one (posted and expanded from the tv trope earlier.

In Ovid's The Metamorphoses, 8 AD, Ovid tells a story about the Debate of the Gods. Eros (Roman name for Cupid) was being mocked by Apollo who was god of Bow and Arrow. He stated that Ero used the bow and arrow wrongly for these weapons were weapons to kill, either for murder or for hunting.

So Eros takes two arrows and uses them. He curses Apollo to fall deeply in love with the divine nymph Daphne and uses another arrow to curse Daphne to hate Apollo. Now Daphne was already a person who did not want to have sex, dedicating herself to be a continuous virgin just like Apollo's sister Artemis. Prior to the Eros / Apollo disagreement Daphne and her father the river god Peneus fought whether Daphne should get married for Peneus wanted grandchildren. Eventually Daphne convinced her father to abandon this dream of his.

So Ero curses Apollo with consuming love and he chases and stalks Daphne everywhere. Apollo now sees in Ovid's Metamorphosis that this pursuit was not pursuit for a goal of sex, or of hunting, but out of love. Daphne who was hit with an arrow of revulsion of Eros/Cupid and who already made a vow of virginity loathed and hated apollo. During one of their chases Apollo is about to capture Daphne (Daphne was faster than Apollo but Eros was getting involved at last and laid a trap for Daphne so Apollo will capture her) so Daphne cries out for her father the river god to free her or to change her form so that Apollo could not have her.

Thus Peneus changes his daughter the divine nymph Daphne into a Laurel tree. Apollo could not have her but he continued to profess his love. Apollo then begins to use her branches and leaves as decorate and a symbol of apollo. Laurel trees (those little leaves you see in people's hair) were often awarded to winners of the Pythian Games (one of the fore-runner games of the olympics dedicated to Apollo). The words baccalaureate (as in bachelor degree and as in the term bachelor) and poet laureate come from the laurel tree. The Laurel tree was also bequeathed to people who obtain victory such as commanders.

Now while Ovid telling of Apollo and Daphne is one of the most famous, it is not the earliest telling of Apollo and Daphne for we have other versions of the story several centuries older. (Ovid metamorphosis which is a collection of tales made him one of the most famous writers of history rivaling Shakespeare). The stories in the metamorphosis though are so popular and so inspirational though that they are often proto myths of many other literature works. (Over 250 myths were told in 15 books in the epic Metamorphosis, note Ovid also did many other works, it is just Metamorphosis is his magnum opus)

[Scarlet Knight]

Fun fact - the current usage of the word 'stalking', as seen in this thread, has only been around for about 20 years.

So, to answer your question, the 90s.

I believe you meant stalking stopped being romantic in the 90's.


It goes back at least as far as Paris kidnapping Helen of Troy and starting the Trojan War. Several examples in Arthurian romances, Renaissance poetry, etc.

It stopped being romantic relatively recently.

Since arranged marriages often have the family give the bride to a stranger, it's makes sense for a man to stalk a woman and convince her " Hey, marry me instead of that other stranger; at least you know I love you."

[Grytorm]

Its a problem. I was just thinking of Adam Sandler, I don't know how respected he is. But I remember the film 100 first dates, which is probably kind of a stalking film. But the reason why it happens is because the love interest forgets details overnight. And they did hit it off the first day. So maybe its a little better.

[Rogar Demonblud]

50 First Dates.

Every time I see the movie, I have to be stopped from screaming at it that short term memory loss doesn't work that way. Ironically, they do have a guy there who does have real short term memory issues, so they can't claim they didn't know.

Also, the laurel is associated with prophecy, since chewing the leaves has hallucinogenic and psychotropic reactions. Daphne is also the word for the laurel tree nymph (daphnae in plural).

[Liquor Box]

It's a fine line, if there is a line at all.

Whether something is classified as stalking or romantic depends a lot on whether the person being stalked/courted ends up enjoying the attention.

Edited: Thanks Ramza

[Ramza00]

Enjoying the attention or enjoying the intention?

[huttj509]

Possibly relevant video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0vwo_TvFPQ

[tiornys]

Possibly relevant video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0vwo_TvFPQ
I literally just searched up this video while reading the thread so that I could post it here. Guess it's a good thing I refreshed before posting :smallcool:

[Murk]

I think it's not so much that it's romantic as that it's narratologically sound.

In most stories - in pretty much all stories - we want to see some perseverance. The hero has to lose before he can win. Or, the hero has to be the underdog. In any case, the hero of the story must face hardship and continue on anyway.

That's why most romantic movies have one of these three basic plots:
- Heroes can't be together because of some external factor (class, gender, job, whatever).
- Heroes can't be together because they don't know they "belong" together but after much trying they find out.
or:
- Heroes can't be together because one hero doesn't want the other (yet).

In that last case, (the "romantic stalking") I don't think it's that the stalking is really romantic, but since it is a form of heroic perseverance, it does make for a good narrative. And since the narrative is a romantic one, a good narrative is a good romance - which leads to stalking making for a good romantic plot.

[The Troubadour]

- If you're a perfect gentleman and does not pursue any woman for fear that you may offend... you will, with 100% probability, not pass on your offspring in those scenarios where you act that way.

It's perfectly possible to act like a gentleman (by which I think you mean "acting in such a manner that you respect other people's spaces and take 'no' for an answer" - i.e., not that high a bar) and still pursue someone romantically.


In that last case, (the "romantic stalking") I don't think it's that the stalking is really romantic, but since it is a form of heroic perseverance, it does make for a good narrative. And since the narrative is a romantic one, a good narrative is a good romance - which leads to stalking making for a good romantic plot.

I agree with this for probably most Hollywoodian romantic comedies, but it's not as if it explains every single instance of "romantic stalking" (see the aforementioned Edward's example, for instance), and there are romantic comedies which break from this formula (I'm reminded, for instance, of "Notting Hill", where every time one of the leads pursues the other, they have clear reasons to believe said pursuit will be welcomed).

[hustlertwo]

I think it is something that has always been around and used to be considered much more socially acceptable prior to the last few decades. It would be on the decline because of that shift in public sentiment, except now the Internet makes doing it 100 times easier than it used to be. A dedicated stalker in the 70's couldn't have known half as much about the target of their misguided affections as we do about any of our dozens of Facebook friends without even wanting to know it in the first place.

[A.A.King]

In a lot of movies still you find a variation of this horribly cliché scene: *One Character being obnoxious* *Other Character punishes him/slaps her* First Character: "Thanks, I needed that."
In any other context (especially in real life) you wouldn't expect the 'victim' to say thanks after just having experienced some degree of assault, but for some reason whenever someone (usually a best friend) does this in a movie to someone else, that someone else knows that he or she had it coming. They deserved it, it was the right thing to do....

Anyway, back to the romantic stalking. The main difference between romantic stalking and creepy stalking is of course whether or not you are being successful. Stalking by the way is a very obvious example of how love weakens the mind, dulls the senses and makes you lose your vital survival instincts. Pretty much EVERY romantic gesture is a bad idea at best if the other person doesn't love you. Even something as simple as buying flowers or chocolate is nothing more than uncreative bribery, trying to buy the forgiveness you haven't actually earned yet. When it comes to 'stalking' though there is something else at play.

Someone already mentioned how romantic 'stalking' is just showing perseverance. By having the love-mad maniac doing everything that normally would warrant a restraining order (at best) he gets to show his devotion, and we get to root for the hero hoping that the other sees the error of its ways (rather than going into police protection). Without the stalking (e.g. the perseverance) the reward wouldn't be as satisfying. Basically: For the people who see themselves as the hero of the story they get to believe that they too can get the person of their dreams if they just try hard enough. However, there is also something for the people who watch the movie from the perspective of the stalkee.

The thing you have to remember is that almost every Romantic story (and especially every Romantic story that uses this narrative device) is a True Love story. It isn't just about two people falling in love who might have a good two years before they starting hating each other like normal couples; it is about two people who were made for each other, whose destiny it is to end up with each other. As such these movies also produce a message of hope for the more passive lovers among us: true love will find you, even if you reject it at first (or a 100 times). Yes, the more passive lovers among us don't like the idea of being stalked anymore than the next guy or gal. However when they watch this see someone who is very much like them reject the someone who the movie makes very clear is their perfect partner. By having this character not give up after rejecting, the passive lover gets hope. He or she doesn't have to worry that Mr. Right or Miss Perfect knocked on their door while they were pretending not to be in, because if they were truly 'the one' they would have come back to knock again and again until their message got through.

So yeah, 'stalking' is not only a comforting narrative device for those among us who have been rejected just the once by the one who we believe is our true love, it is also a comfort for those among us who want to believe in true love but are too scared to put ourself out there because true love will come to us with a Boombox for some reason...

Though, seeing as I am neither of those two people the only thing I think when I have to watch these movies is my earlier statement: "love weakens the mind, dulls the senses and makes you lose your vital survival instincts."

[BannedInSchool]

Pretty much EVERY romantic gesture is a bad idea at best if the other person doesn't love you. Even something as simple as buying flowers or chocolate is nothing more than uncreative bribery, [...]

As seen on Twitter (as a joke): CD-W labeled: "I made you this CD. Please have sex with me."

[Frozen_Feet]

@hustlertwo: I think you're on to something with the changing technology bit, just in away different than you proposed.

Consider: before easy long-distance communication, if you and the target of your affections didn't frequent the same social circles, you pretty much had to find out where they lived and go knock on their door, or chat them up in a mall or something.

Then phones happened, and now the polite thing was to ask for their number and maybe call first.

Then text messaging happened, and calls became maybe a bit too personal for first contact. (I'm not kidding - there are studies on how people came to be anxious about calling each other.)

Then internet-based messaging became common, and now maybe asking for phone number is too personal - you add people on Facebook or Instagram instead.

You see the same change in a different area of life: searching for a job. (Which is depressingly alike to looking for a romantic partner.)

It used to be you could, or rather, had to walk straight into the factory and ask for a job face-to-face with a chief. Then phones became common, and the common practice became to call for an appointment first. Then internet happened, and the common practice became to send e-mail before even calling.

When it comes to job-hunting (notice how I'm using the word?), the current standard is turning out to be that you have to first send your application to a third party, who will sort these applications and only present the best ones to the recruitment. I suppose some dating services aren't too far off from this; I wonder at which point even chatting on the net becomes impolite unless you've already matched on Tinder? :smalltongue: