What's up with those non-Baatezu devils?

[Inevitability]

As said above, is it explained anywhere why some devils (such as kytons, hellcats and imps) do not possess the Baatezu subtype? For that matter, what's the essential differences between them and Baatezu?

[LTwerewolf]

The most numerous devils are the
baatezu, infamous for their strength, evil
temperament, and ruthlessly efficient
organization. Baatezu have a rigid caste
system, in which authority derives not
only from power but also from station. They
occupy themselves mainly with extending
their influence throughout the planes by corrupting
mortals. Baatezu who further this goal
are usually rewarded with improved stations.

Baatezu Traits: A baatezu possesses the following
traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
—Immunity to fire and poison.
—Resistance to acid 10 and cold 10.
—See in Darkness (Su): All baatezu can see perfectly in darkness
of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.
—Summon (Sp): Baatezu share the ability to summon others of
their kind (the success chance and type of baatezu summoned are
noted in each monster description).
—Telepathy.

I think that pretty much covers it. Baatezu are just more specific devils. As far as imps not being baatezu, I'm pretty sure it was a balance decision over a lore one. Immunity to fire, poison and 10 cold/acid resist at that level would be pretty ridiculous, as well as the ability to summon more devils (remember, this little beasty can be a familiar too) and the ability to ignore darkness.

[Afgncaap5]

As said above, is it explained anywhere why some devils (such as kytons, hellcats and imps) do not possess the Baatezu subtype? For that matter, what's the essential differences between them and Baatezu?

I'm no expert, but I believe the Baatezu are all of a certain race of creature, and that while all members of this race are devils, not all devils are Baatezu. The term "devil" is actually a pretty decent umbrella term that can cover a lot of ground, and doesn't even require those who take the term to be outsiders, though that's definitely the norm (the iconic non-outsider devil being the Retriever.) The Monster Manual never *quite* says that a creature with the Fiendish template can be a devil or demon, though I've met a number of DMs who play them that way. I think that in general, Baatezu are more likely to be involved in the rigid hierarchy, though I don't know if they would exclude things like hellcats and such from being a part of that (and I seem to recall that imps are expressly in this hierarchy, so I don't know how reliable my sources are.)

EDIT: Just realized that the Retriever is a demon, not a devil. Whoops!

[LTwerewolf]

(and I seem to recall that imps are expressly in this hierarchy, so I don't know how reliable my sources are.)

Fiendish codex 2, page 10. Imps are rank 5 in the heirarchy. Chain devils are included in the heirarchy as well (rank 7), but hellcats are not.

[Inevitability]

What I'm looking for is any non-Baatezu-Baatezu distinction that isn't completely arbitrary.

[LTwerewolf]

Mechanics are above, so I assume you're looking for lore? The game is entirely silent beyond what is in the monster manual. Baatezu are the most common devil. That's it.

[KillianHawkeye]

What I'm looking for is any non-Baatezu-Baatezu distinction that isn't completely arbitrary.

Then you're going to be disappointed, because a made-up distinction that only applies to made-up creatures can't really be anything but arbitrary.

[Inevitability]

Then you're going to be disappointed, because a made-up distinction that only applies to made-up creatures can't really be anything but arbitrary.

Really? In the case of demons, the distinctions between various demonic races seem pretty clear.

Obyriths = First demons, more chaotic than evil.
Tanar'ri = Creations of the obyriths.
Loumara = Recently created demons spawned by a pantheon of dead gods.

[KillianHawkeye]

Really? In the case of demons, the distinctions between various demonic races seem pretty clear.

Obyriths = First demons, more chaotic than evil.
Tanar'ri = Creations of the obyriths.
Loumara = Recently created demons spawned by a pantheon of dead gods.

I'm not saying the subtypes aren't distinct, just that their assignment to any creature that might be created is factually arbitrary. You or I could create an original demonic creature, and regardless of what abilities we chose to give it, it's classification into one of the existing demonic races (or into a brand new one, or none at all) would be based on nothing more than our whim and the role we wanted the creature to play in the game world. Ergo, it is arbitrary.

As an example, let's talk about the obyriths. They didn't even exist before 3rd Edition, but Pazuzu (who's been around since 1st Edition D&D) was retconned as being one. Then came along 4th Edition, which re-wrote the very nature of the obyriths who, rather than merely being ancient were recast as invaders from another universe who are not only responsible (albeit unintentionally) for the creation of the tanar'ri but also the very Abyss itself. And while Pazuzu and a few other demon lords are still identified as obyriths, no ordinary demonic creatures are. Their entire story arc was arbitrarily rewritten to fit into the new 4th Edition narrative backstory involving the war between the Primordials (a new, arbitrarily created creature type) and the Gods. The same thing happened to the archons, who bear no resemblance at all to what they were in previous editions.

So I stand by my assertion that the classification of any creature as being a demon or a devil (did I mention Succubi are devils in 4th Edition?), or as being a tanar'ri or an obyrith, or as being a baatezu or not being a baatezu, is indeed entirely arbitrary.

[umbergod]

Werent succubi devils in 3rd edition as well??

[Inevitability]

Werent succubi devils in 3rd edition as well??

They were demons until 4e, then devils, and now (5e) they're neither.

[Boci]

I'm not saying the subtypes aren't distinct, just that their assignment to any creature that might be created is factually arbitrary.

But the baaltezu subtype isn't even distinct. That's all Dire_Stirge seems to want. Old, new and newer are coherent classifications.

[umbergod]

They were demons until 4e, then devils, and now (5e) they're neither.

Huh, youre right, just checked my 3rd ed MM. Dunno why i thought they were devils, and that their devilish counterparts were demons.....

[Hecuba]

Really? In the case of demons, the distinctions between various demonic races seem pretty clear.

Obyriths = First demons, more chaotic than evil.
Tanar'ri = Creations of the obyriths.
Loumara = Recently created demons spawned by a pantheon of dead gods.

I think that what you're looking for has more to do with whether the distinction o is clear am me will defined rather than whether or not it's arbitrary.

The key here is that Baatezu are all one really bizarre race. The least of them could eventually become a pit fiend, while a chain devil could not (at least by normal diabolic advancement).

[Boci]

I think that what you're looking for has more to do with whether the distinction o is clear am me will defined rather than whether or not it's arbitrary.

The key here is that Baatezu are all one really bizarre race. The least of them could eventually become a pit fiend, while a chain devil could not (at least by normal diabolic advancement).

Couldn't a chain demon? They're on the hierachy list the devils get promoted along towards pit fiend.

[galan]

Couldn't a chain demon? They're on the hierachy list the devils get promoted along towards pit fiend.


I do not own Fiendish Codex II, but I've read they actually listed chain devils as baatezu, so the codex could be flat out wrong on this matter.

[Boci]

I do not own Fiendish Codex II, but I've read they actually listed chain devils as baatezu, so the codex could be flat out wrong on this matter.

Imps are also listed. And its mentioned that wild life typically isn't listed since its a dead end, hence why no hellcat.

[Inevitability]

Imps are also listed. And its mentioned that wild life typically isn't listed since its a dead end, hence why no hellcat.

Why define hellcats as 'wildlife', though? They're smarter than people, and it's not like other devils don't look bestial.

[Boci]

Why define hellcats as 'wildlife', though? They're smarter than people, and it's not like other devils don't look bestial.

No thumbs and no mention of their role in hell's society. Doesn't mean too much for a demon, but speaks volumes for a devil.

[Darth Ultron]

As said above, is it explained anywhere why some devils (such as kytons, hellcats and imps) do not possess the Baatezu subtype? For that matter, what's the essential differences between them and Baatezu?

If your looking for the Lore, you will need to go back to 2E Planescape. 3E and newer does not care about lore, so you won't find anything there.

The story is:In the long ago time before time, Asmodeus(NOT the lame 4/5E version) was a champion of Law and lead a whole legion against the obyrith. Over the centuries of battle, though, it is said that the nature of their foes contaminated Asmodeus and his legion, twisting them, making them darker in both look and deed, and pulling them away from the light.

Enter the mortal world. The obyrith and their tanar'ri minions soon began to strike against these realms, learning the power that belief held. And though the deities sought to protect their children, hiding and blocking the means by which the fiends entered these worlds, the mortals never ceased to defy them, letting the demons in time and again. The deities had no choice but to allow them this, for Law means nothing without free will. But Asmodeus proposed a way of helping to ensure obedience; and thus the concept of Punishment was born. The ideals of Good and Evil made themselves apparent to the deities of Law for the first time.

And so it was that those that transgressed were punished in their afterlife. Throughout the halls of Celestia, sinners were flayed, tormented, tortured. The deities could not let this stand, and sought to try Asmodeus for his deeds; they could do naught, though, as he was merely executing their desire. He offered a deal, though. A pact, known today as the Pact Primeval, signed by Asmodeus and all the deities of Law, that would agree to send those to be punished to the realm of Baator, claimed by Asmodeus and his legion. The wicked were removed from Celestia, and sent Asmodeus on his way.

The deities soon discovered the true nature of Asmodeus's scheme, for he had not merely taken in those that chose the ways of tyranny of their own accord, but sent his legion out into the Material to seduce them there, taking power from their torment and growing ever near the heights of divinity himself. The deities of Law once more called Asmodeus before them. And yet, he had abode by the Pact precisely. Nothing could be done. Still, in anger, they struck at him with their great power. While as per the Pact they could not slay him, they wounded him greatly, sending him crashing back to Baator, falling through the Nine Hells until finally landing in the deepest pit of Nessus, where even today he still recovers from his wounds, each drop of blood manifesting as a new pit fiend.

It was this legion that formed the first baatezu, and it was with their establishment in Baator that the ancient and primordial battle between Law and Chaos can first be said to have transitioned into the Blood War


So there you go, the Lore of the Baatezu origin.

[Aldrakan]

Kytons in 3.5 I believe are explicitly of different origin than Devils (though it does not say what it is), are not loyal to Asmodeus, and many of them dwell in the plane of shadows instead of Hell. The relevant factor is presumably either a different origin or the issue of loyalty - maybe all baatezu serve Asmodeus? (Which could apply to the other two as well, although there are certainly some imps that serve him, but not all perhaps?)
By Pathfinder they're created through a method similar to but different from that used to create Devils, from people who have been gone to the plane of shadow instead of a standard death destination, either through personal inclination or ritual; so they're fiends and some live in hell, but apparently the nature of their evil is sufficiently separate to make them another species.

[Bohandas]

This doesn't apply to the monsters listed by the OP but there was a race of devils that preceeded the Baatezu called the Baatorans. Their only attestation in 3e however is the deposed archdevil Zargon from Elder Evils. (Also the Nupperibo from FC2 were originally Baatorans back in 2e)

[Manyasone]

I find that Paizo did some nice things with Kyton as race. Linking them with their deity Zon - Kuthon and giving them a very 'Hellraiser' feel... Also most lore concerning tana'ri and baatezu we use is second edition Planescape since our RP group's origin lies there

[Darth Ultron]

Kytons in 3.5 I believe are explicitly of different origin than Devils .

More lore:

Kytons are not true devils. Many suggest that kytons were natives of Hell who existed there before the advent of devilkind, while others hypothesize they were later brought to the plane by some sadistic power. Regardless of their origins, kytons roam the planes in their lust to cause and receive suffering, seeking pain through violent abductions and sadistic debauches.

Kytons and Bladelinds fought a big war long ago...both sides lost.

But otherwise they are mostly just a mystery.

[Hecuba]

I do not own Fiendish Codex II, but I've read they actually listed chain devils as baatezu, so the codex could be flat out wrong on this matter.

I didn't go out of my way to check- the OP's listing of chain devils as non-baatezu matched up with my memory. Regardless, the defining feature of - as opposed to other LE outsiders called devils - is ascension from one rank of baatezu to another. That Imp you piss off might one day be a Pit Fiend who deals with your great-great-grandsprog.

[galan]

The monster manual indeed lists chain devil as not baatezu. I claim the Fiendish Codex is wrong on the matter, not OP

[Afgncaap5]

The monster manual indeed lists chain devil as not baatezu. I claim the Fiendish Codex is wrong on the matter, not OP

If I may take some inspiration from Eberron, could it be possible to have two sorts of Chain Devils? Some belonging to a bizarre race of outsider that resides in Hell due to some as-yet unknown (ie. up to the DM) bit of lore, while others are also Baatezu, either as a case of convergent evolution* ("Hey, we sorta look like those other chain-covered demons. What do they call themselves? Huh... sensible, to the point... let's call ourselves that, too.") or as a case of imitation ("Those chain devils are quite capable... let us use our collective will and transform the hierarchy to give us a form as theirs, that the forces of evil and law might bind and flay mortals with the might of chains!")

This is sort of what I do for imps. Sometimes I like lawful imps, sometimes I like chaotic ones, and I also enjoy the images of imps with origins both stranger (plane of shadow, created by the will of this dark sorcerer, etc.) and more natural (actually a mortal species related to goblins) so I can wind up with four or five different sorts of things that most people of the world would call "Imps", even if it made the pedantic wizards of the world shake their heads and sigh at the basic lack of education in their civilization.

(And having that solution for imps made it a lot easier to accept the changes to succubi, among other things.)