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Kryx
2016-08-27, 05:33 AM
My rules are hosted at https://marklenser.com/5e

Hi,

Much like my Sorcerer Rework (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495592-Sorcerer-Rework) I decided to give the same treatment to the Monk. The Monk has struggled since release - it is the least damaging martial class by far with rogue hit points and a very one dimensional playstyle of using Stunning Strike as often as possible as it is by far the best option in terms of DPR and CC on enemies. My goal with this rework is to have monk do more DPR by default (about equivalent to a Paladin), while also expanding their combat options to be more dynamic. Paladin is a comparable class as both the monk and the paladin have several defensive options built into their class so if their DPR is equivalent it shouldn't be too much to have more feature (spellcasting).
Through this process, and especially when considering the four elements monk, I realized that the monk is a perfect fit for 5th level spellcasting. This form of spellcasting is very limited as the monk only knows about 10-15 spells total from a set list. The result doesn't make the monk feel like a spellcasting, but more like some small spellcasting on the side as Paladin, Ranger, and EK so the spellcasting shouldn't be too too obtrusive.

I created Kryx's Monk (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxGh_mU9ihaPSTRRekRiSEZaWlk) with the following changes:

Flurry of Blows does not cost ki and is given at level 3 and Extra attack increased to 3 at level 11. see DPR of Classes (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1826558867)
Ki uses expanded to include Open hand push, prone, and no reactions. Step of the wind moved to air. Other uses added for each archetype.
Ki Blast added to most archetypes. It's modelled on Radiant Sun Bolt from Way of the Sun Soul Monk (SCAG). It's equivalent to a monk using a dagger, but flavored to match each archetype.
Ki can be used to cast spells for all archetypes. They are effectively 5th level casters.
Ki increased at level 16+ to make monks have the same number of effective spell points as a 1/2 caster (Paladin) while assuming 1.5 short rests. see 5th level caster's effective spell points (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=2091322934)
Monastic Tradition moved to level 2 to make spells available at level 2 as they are for the other 5th level casters.
Added Air, Earth, Fire, and Water archetypes
Stunning Strike moved to Way of the Long Death as the archetypes now deliver more ways to use your Ki. Stunning strike was rather strong (arguably OP) and when combined with the versatility that spells bring is too much so it had to go. Having it only in one archetype makes it more balanced compared to the benefits of another archetype.
Wholeness of Body added at 9th level (from Open Hand).
Moving on vertical surfaces and liquid moved to Way of Air as it matches the flavor of that archetype, not the others.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon removed as it doesn't fit the monk flavor that I expect. Monks are the translators of the world? Very strange. Seems more like a Bard feature.


Thanks so much for taking the time to look and for any feedback provided.

gkathellar
2016-08-27, 07:25 PM
Tongue of the Sun and Moon removed as it doesn't fit the monk flavor that I expect. Monks are the translators of the world? Very strange. Seems more like a Bard feature.

Have I mentioned I like your work? I like your work.

Anyway, critique. I like it, and it's a big improvement. I especially appreciate that most or all of the archetypes get Nice Things - combat abilities don't come at the cost of non-combat abilities, and vice-versa. Things like Astral Projection in Empty Body are natural additions, and greatly expand the utility and desirability of the class. All that said, I don't think it addresses some of my personal issues with later levels, as I will explain below.

One thing that strikes me immediately is a barren first level, with only passive abilities to speak of, and a second level that suddenly grants a huge number of abilities. This isn't a problem novel to your version - it afflicts the original monk, as well as a lot of 5e classes in general (take the paladin, for instance: a beatstick with a weak heal at level 1, suddenly a gish at level 2). That said, adding a whole bunch of new ki options to those gained at 2nd level means that players go from having no class-specific options to very suddenly having tons. Is it possible to spread these out a bit more and/or put one or two at first level?


At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don't have the two-handed or heavy property.

As long as you're making changes, you may want to throw scimitar in on top of the shortsword for the kung-fu nerds in the crowd (like me). The only difference between it and the shortsword is that it deals slashing damage, which makes it the dao (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dao_%28sword%29) to the shortsword's jian. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jian)


Your ki can be used to power spells. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for these spells. You use your Wisdom whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. You can spend additional ki points to cast a spell as a higher level spell. Refer to the table below to determine the cost. The maximum number of ki points that you can spend on a spell equals half your monk level (round down).

To be clear, these spells behave normally for all intents and purposes, right? AoOs, Concentration, the works?


Starting at 2nd level, you can channel your ki to make a ranged spell attack in place of an unarmed strike. This attack follows the normal rules for your unarmed strike, except it has a range of 30/60 feet and the damage type is determined by your monastic tradition.

I like it! Since this is a spell attack, it uses Wisdom for attack and damage, right?


At 2nd level, you commit yourself to a monastic tradition: the Way of Air, the Way of Earth, the Way of Fire, the Way of the Long Death, the Way of Shadow, or the Way of Water,

Not a criticism, but is there any reason you didn't re-implement Sun Soul Monk for a "good guy" archetype? With Long Death and Shadows both, its absence is noticeable.


uh

hello?

I kid, of course. That said, while I don't like Tongue of the Sun and Moon (this is an understatement), is there any reason for this level to be dead? If not, maybe


At 15th level, your ki sustains you so that you suffer none of the frailty of old age, and you can't be aged magically. You can still die of old age, however. In addition, you no longer need food or water.

This ability does little or nothing, mechanically, so 15th level likewise feels kinda dead. Some form of Quivering Palm would be traditional, if not inspired. An immunity or two would have some symmetry with those granted at level 15. But, yeah, I think you can do better than Timeless Body, for whatever that's worth.


At 20th level, when you roll for initiative and have no ki points remaining, you regain 4 ki points.

I'm not a big fan of these "extend your adventuring day a tiny bit" capstones. I don't think they're interesting, and I don't think they're strong. At the very least, cutting the "no ki points remaining" line would give monks a bit of largess with their ki per fight.

Pontificating a bit on capstones: ideally, though, I think it would be something deeply monk-ish in tone, in the same way that the rogue's "I Win" button fits the rogue's cheating demeanor, or the barbarian's superhuman power and endurance fits its attitude of physical supremacy. So I guess the question to ask is what monks do? Jump around, punch guys a lot of times per turn, toss around some magical powers, endure and avoid magical powers. Not sure what that leads to in terms of a capstone - maybe some kind of nutty combo attack? Quivering palm, Because Legacy?

Dunno. In any case, the later levels are collectively a little barren.


Way of Air

Looks good. I like that Air Shield lets you turn a hit into a miss, although the language isn't 100% clear on that point.


Way of Earth

Overall solid (getit). Two things.
Does Fissure Strike actually compete with Flurry of Blows?
Between Earth Aspect, Stoneskin, and Empty Body, Rock Shield sort of disappears at top levels. That's not necessarily the worst thing in the world, but I have one thought: what if it extended the Resistance to magic weapons when used while Earth Aspect is up? It still wouldn't be the most optimal power, but at least it wouldn't vanish entirely.


Way of Fire

Again, good stuff. A few things.

By RAW, does an unarmed strike count as a melee weapon attack? If not, Flaming Fists has an issue.
Searing Arc Strike - same question as Fissure Strike.
Does Fangs of the Fire Snake also increase the range of your ki blast by 10 feet? What about weapons used via Martial Arts?



Way of the Long Death

No problems here.


Way of Shadows

Two things:

Shadowy Shield seems really strong, and makes Patient Defense totally irrelevant.
Shadow Lord should probably say, "hit by your ki blast" as opposed to "hit by your shadowy wisps" for the sake of clarity.



Way of Water

Good. A little too similar to Air, but that's not really a problem. I'd explicitly throw a swim speed in somewhere - Water Walk, or maybe even earlier.

Kryx
2016-08-28, 05:16 AM
Firstly, thanks for the feedback!


Things like Astral Projection in Empty Body are natural additions, and greatly expand the utility and desirability of the class.
These were already part of the monk class. I only adjusted their ki cost to be in line with DMG standards.


One thing that strikes me immediately is a barren first level, with only passive abilities to speak of, and a second level that suddenly grants a huge number of abilities. This isn't a problem novel to your version - it afflicts the original monk, as well as a lot of 5e classes in general (take the paladin, for instance: a beatstick with a weak heal at level 1, suddenly a gish at level 2). That said, adding a whole bunch of new ki options to those gained at 2nd level means that players go from having no class-specific options to very suddenly having tons. Is it possible to spread these out a bit more and/or put one or two at first level?
As you point out this is a D&D 5e design paradigm. Levels 1 and 2 are basically quick introductions to the game which last about a session or two each. They are designed to not overwhelm players with options. Additionally they delay some of the benefits to prevent the massive multiclass culture of 3.X where many of the benefits are front-loaded. For comparison a Rogue gets Cunning Action at level 2 which has similar effect as a Monk's Ki abilities. At level 1 the Rogue's Sneak Attack is equivalent in damage to a monk's Quarterstaff and bonus action unarmed strike.
This design choice of WotC solves far more problems than it creates imo.


As long as you're making changes, you may want to throw scimitar in on top of the shortsword for the kung-fu nerds in the crowd (like me). The only difference between it and the shortsword is that it deals slashing damage, which makes it the dao (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dao_%28sword%29) to the shortsword's jian. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jian)
Seems reasonable enough. Added.


To be clear, these spells behave normally for all intents and purposes, right? AoOs, Concentration, the works?
Spells don't grant Opportunity Attacks, but yes the spells powered by ki function as normal spells.


I like it! Since this is a spell attack, it uses Wisdom for attack and damage, right?
Nope, Strength or Dexterity like a normal unarmed strike. See Radiant Sun Bolt for the Way of the Sun Soul. It's effectively a thrown weapon.


Not a criticism, but is there any reason you didn't re-implement Sun Soul Monk for a "good guy" archetype? With Long Death and Shadows both, its absence is noticeable.
Sun Soul Monk is remade into the way of fire - they're pretty similar. There are plenty of "good guy" archetypes - air is a pacifist, water leans good, earth is good/neutral. Fire could go either way.


I kid, of course. That said, while I don't like Tongue of the Sun and Moon (this is an understatement), is there any reason for this level to be dead?
Compare this class to the Paladin or Ranger. Both have dead levels at 9, 13, and 17. Only 1 dead level is rather rare for classes. Only Barbarian, Fighter, and Rogue (pure martial classes) accomplish that.


This ability does little or nothing, mechanically, so 15th level likewise feels kinda dead. Some form of Quivering Palm would be traditional, if not inspired. An immunity or two would have some symmetry with those granted at level 15. But, yeah, I think you can do better than Timeless Body, for whatever that's worth.
I did not alter this ability. That said it's a flavorful ability that grants nothing mechanically. The druid gets it too. If you compare to 3.X the monk gets it their too.

Quivering Palm does not exist because it one of the few save or die abilities that survived the 5e purge (in other words it shouldn't exist as a save or die). Beyond that the archetypes expansion to include ki -> spells already presents plenty of options.


I'm not a big fan of these "extend your adventuring day a tiny bit" capstones. I don't think they're interesting, and I don't think they're strong. At the very least, cutting the "no ki points remaining" line would give monks a bit of largess with their ki per fight.
I did not alter this ability. This capstone is on the low to mid tier in terms of capstones. It's ok, not great. I did some research into potentially replacing it, but was unable to come up with something better. If you have suggestions I'm willing to listen, however as you point out it's hard to nail down exactly what an ideal monk is.


Dunno. In any case, the later levels are collectively a little barren.
This is true across the board for classes - they slow down as they level. However I would argue that this class is not as barren as it may seem. It gets spells at 13 and 17, an archetype feature at 17. Diamond Soul at 14 which is rather amazing. Empty Body at 18 which has some nice flavor if nothing else.


Looks good. I like that Air Shield lets you turn a hit into a miss, although the language isn't 100% clear on that point.
The mechanical wording is identical to the spell shield. The only difference is the bonus granted.


Overall solid (getit). Two things.
Does Fissure Strike actually compete with Flurry of Blows?
Between Earth Aspect, Stoneskin, and Empty Body, Rock Shield sort of disappears at top levels. That's not necessarily the worst thing in the world, but I have one thought: what if it extended the Resistance to magic weapons when used while Earth Aspect is up? It still wouldn't be the most optimal power, but at least it wouldn't vanish entirely.
Solid, lulz.
Fissure Strike, like Searing Arc Strike, does compete with flurry of blows. Instead of 2 punches you can do some AoE damage.

Regarding the overlap in resistance: Ya, I'd like to improve something here, though it seems unlikely. Empty body is 5 ki so I don't think that really competes. Earth Aspect only lasts for 10 minutes (1-2 encounters) so there are still several other encounters in a day without the resistance. There are very few monsters with magical weapons, but it does bother me that the main defensive option of an earth monk is invalidated by them whereas the defensive options for Air and Water are not. I think I'll just remove the nonmagical part from both. It shouldn't increase the power much at all, but should prevent it from being invalidated in the rare cases.


Again, good stuff. A few things.

By RAW, does an unarmed strike count as a melee weapon attack? If not, Flaming Fists has an issue.
Searing Arc Strike - same question as Fissure Strike.
Does Fangs of the Fire Snake also increase the range of your ki blast by 10 feet? What about weapons used via Martial Arts?

1. Unarmed Strike is a melee weapon attack. See http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/15/melee-weapon-unarmed-strike/
2. Searing Arc Strike - see Fissure Strike. Allowing flurry and a spell on top would be far too much burst DPR and would become the best option
3. As written it increases your reach, not range. Meaning it only works on melee attacks. This is taken from the four elements monk. Tbh I'm not so happy with Fangs of the fire snake as it is rather unnecessary now that we have the ki blast feature. the 1d4 on each attack is nice, but not sure it's enough. Maybe you have some ideas?


Two things:

Shadowy Shield seems really strong, and makes Patient Defense totally irrelevant.
Shadow Lord should probably say, "hit by your ki blast" as opposed to "hit by your shadowy wisps" for the sake of clarity.

Shadowy Shield is about equivalent to the Air/Water shield ability. Questionably weaker. For example if my AC is 18 and an enemy rolls a 20 I'm 100% confident that an Air/Water shield will stop the attack. However if I use Shadowy Shield they just reroll and have the same percentage chance to hit me with no guarantee of it doing anything. It's the same wording as blur. Patient Defense (Dodge) is actually a better choice as it grants adv on dex saves. The only difference is the bonus action cost. I've thought about making this mirror the shield abilities, but then the flavor is lost.

FYI added a bonus action cost on Extinguish Light. Potentially should have it on shadowy shield, but then it's just a worse Patient Defense.



Good. A little too similar to Air, but that's not really a problem. I'd explicitly throw a swim speed in somewhere - Water Walk, or maybe even earlier.
The similarities are mainly in the shield. Other than that they're pretty different. I replaced the "ascend 60 feet" with "you gain a swim speed equal to your speed."

I'd like to move this to level 6, but then Healing river is moved to 11 which is rather late. :(

Thanks again for your feedback. I'd like to improve the following:
A better option than Fangs of the Fire Snake
Think over Shadowy Shield - maybe there is something better to be done here.
Potentially move Water Walk earlier for Water
Ensure Shape the Earth can't bypass walls (invalidating the later spells) - shape the flowing river is from Four elements, though it's based on a 6th level spell (move earth)

Kryx
2016-08-28, 08:04 AM
Made some changes:

Ki blast revamped to be very similar to the wording of radiant sun bolt. It now uses Wisdom. Other than that it functions the same as before, just some different wording. Flurry of Blows updated to account for Ki Blast being a different type of action. FYI Extra attack works with Ki Blast (Crawford had a tweet about Radiant Sun Bolt).
Rock Shield and Earth Aspect aren't bypassed by magical weapons as mentioned above.
Rock Shield costs a bonus action.
Shadowy Shield costs a bonus action.
Renamed Water Walk to "Water Pressure Manipulation" and swapped it to level 6 and moved Mending river to 11.

Fangs of the Fire Snake is actually decent now that Ki Blast uses Wisdom as it allows you to extend your reach without sacrificing damage. Alternatively a Monk can focus Wisdom over Dexterity now.

HarrisonF
2016-09-29, 11:50 PM
This is really good, thanks for taking the time to do this. I loved the 5ed monk at low levels, but it quickly became bad at higher levels. This rounds it out and makes it worth going to higher levels for.

A few comments and questions:


Does flaming fists stack with each other? If you punch someone three times, could you spend 3 ki to do 3d6?
Why is Ki Blast now Wisdom instead of Dex? It is odd to have two different attack attributes, Wisdom and Dex. This also differs from Radiant Sun Bolt.
A lot of the wording around Ki Blast and extra attack and flurry of blows is really awkward and I had to read through each area like 5 times before I could figure out how many attacks the monks got and how the abilities interacted.
"Water Pressure Manipulation" seems kinda a bad ability name. I don't have a new one that is better though ;)

Foxhound438
2016-09-30, 01:37 AM
Well I personally don't see a problem with the standard monk- you get damage on par with rogue, and a different set of utility. Having less damage than the fighte-

*reads that air monk gets storm sphere*

Yep, looks good. I really like this rework, especially the added casting to ...



To be serious though, I don't personally feel that the monk needs such radical reform. Perhaps something more than a 1 size increase for dice every tier would be nice on the damage end, since it feels like in order to really keep up in damage you need to dip ranger or warlock.

That said, it seems pretty okay. Your reasoning for all of your choices is clear and fair, and I'd say the way you have it is fairly balanced. Also, my favorite spell.

One thing though, it kind of makes sense for monks to have translation, since aside from being fist-flurrying, fleet-footed warriors, they are practitioners of religion. It would be highly advantageous to your church if you could know anyone's language* right off, since spreading the religion brings in more donators... General consensus of pop culture monks is that they are "wise and understanding", so there's that as well.

The only thing I would seriously consider finding an alternative to is the whole "1 free spell per SR at 11th" deal, since you're also giving 3x attack. Obviously those are mutually exclusive in use, action wise, but free spells as an option is also pretty powerful. I get the intent is to incentivize the use of the spells, since otherwise it's using up your fairly shallow "universal monk resource" pool, however I feel it might be suited for a higher level feature.

Kryx
2016-09-30, 05:42 AM
This is really good, thanks for taking the time to do this.
Thanks for the feedback!


Does flaming fists stack with each other? If you punch someone three times, could you spend 3 ki to do 3d6?
No, consider "on fire" a condition so it can only happen once. I guess this knowledge may have some older edition expectations (see http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-Catching-on-Fire). I'll reword it a bit:
"When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or with your ki blast, you can spend 1 ki point to cause the creature to catch fire. A creature on fire at the start of its turn takes 3 (1d6) fire damage.

A creature on fire or one that can touch the creature can use its action to douse the flames."

Is that any better? Any suggestions to improve it?


Why is Ki Blast now Wisdom instead of Dex? It is odd to have two different attack attributes, Wisdom and Dex. This also differs from Radiant Sun Bolt.
Ki blast is Wisdom for a couple of reasons:

It is a spell attack. No other spell attack in the game (that I know of) uses Dexterity. Spell attacks (that I know of) use the spellcasting ability. The monk isn't creating daggers with his ki and then launching those, he's shooting ki which is basically magic, therefore spell attack, therefore spellcasting ability.
If it were Dex then a Monk could effectively do full DPR from 30 feet away. Having it be the secondary stat still emphasises that Monk is a melee class that now has some ranged options, but those ranged options aren't quite as good as melee (unless the monk fully focuses on ranged by boosting Wisdom, which is possible).


A lot of the wording around Ki Blast and extra attack and flurry of blows is really awkward and I had to read through each area like 5 times before I could figure out how many attacks the monks got and how the abilities interacted.
Ki blast wording is nearly identical to Radiant Sun Bolt besides the parts that have been changed (colored in Fuschia). Those changes are mainly to the spell attack as above and to not cost ki.

Where is the confusion? What wording, specifically, can be clarified? The summary in the preface should also help with the overall view.


"Water Pressure Manipulation" seems kinda a bad ability name. I don't have a new one that is better though ;)
That name comes from the wiki that I linked. http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Waterbending. It seems to fit the mechanics, but if you have a better idea let me know.






Well I personally don't see a problem with the standard monk- you get damage on par with rogue, and a different set of utility.
Just to clarify - the monk gets nothing close to Rogue DPR. The monk has 65.5% of the GWM Fighter's DPR per RAW. A TWF rogue has 75% and a hand crossbow rogue has 78.5%


To be serious though, I don't personally feel that the monk needs such radical reform.
*snip*
One thing though, it kind of makes sense for monks to have translation, since aside from being fist-flurrying, fleet-footed warriors, they are practitioners of religion. It would be highly advantageous to your church if you could know anyone's language* right off, since spreading the religion brings in more donators... General consensus of pop culture monks is that they are "wise and understanding", so there's that as well.

I'm sure there are thousands of people who agree with you. This thread is for people who aren't satisfied with the monk's playstyle as I outlined in the preface. Having an incredibly low DPR martial build that primarily is there to perma-stun enemies isn't a good design imo.

If I were to apply the same logic that religion = languages then Clerics and Paladins should also speak every language. It doesn't fit the fluff imo. If you disagree then keep it - it really doesn't matter to the overall power level.


The only thing I would seriously consider finding an alternative to is the whole "1 free spell per SR at 11th" deal, since you're also giving 3x attack. Obviously those are mutually exclusive in use, action wise, but free spells as an option is also pretty powerful. I get the intent is to incentivize the use of the spells, since otherwise it's using up your fairly shallow "universal monk resource" pool, however I feel it might be suited for a higher level feature.
One specific spell cast without ki expenditure is pretty limited. Instead it could have a feature that boosts its combat or utility in other ways, but spell seems the most fitting.
DPR is quite unrelated to the utility of spells granted at 11th levle, but a monk's DPR is well within the expectation (80% of a fighter GWM RAW and 83.8% in my houserules)

gkathellar
2016-09-30, 09:43 AM
One thing though, it kind of makes sense for monks to have translation, since aside from being fist-flurrying, fleet-footed warriors, they are practitioners of religion.

They are? Where does it say that?

TripleD
2016-09-30, 12:32 PM
Regarding the capstone, I can see how difficult it would be since the ideal grandmaster would be one who doesn't fight except when absolutely necessary. Every martial art I've ever practised or encountered has emphasized "the best fight is the one that doesn't happen". D&D tried something like that back in 3.5 with the "Apostle of Peace" prestige class from "Book of Exhalted Deeds", but it really doesn't mesh with how D&D is actually played.

Maybe something along those lines though? "Inner Peace": you have advantage on any Wisdom or Charisma saving throw. It's sort of like a passive "Stroke of Luck" ability.

LordVonDerp
2016-10-03, 09:42 PM
You want to give Paladin-level DPR to the monk? That's pretty much broken.

Secret Wizard
2016-10-04, 12:36 AM
Seems like a neat class, but I don't see it as a Monk. The whole -bending thing already leaves me with a bad taste. I know some monks want more mystical abilities, but to me monks avoid outright spellcasting, instead focusing on using their body's own energy. Most of these archetypes are about harnessing the power of outside forces. I don't see the traditional monk flavor represented anywhere here.

Kryx
2016-10-04, 04:18 AM
You want to give Paladin-level DPR to the monk? That's pretty much broken.
Can you please explain why a martial class doing martial level damage is broken?

Here are some numbers from my houserules:
TWF Rogue does 92.2% of a fighter GWM
S&B Fighter does 82.5% of a fighter GWM
This monk does 87.5% of a fighter GWM
Paladin with no archetype does 88.7% of a fighter GWM
OoV Paladin does 115% of a fighter GWM

Monk is a very similar role to a Rogue, but has some more defenses. The rogue could also have AT for spells.
The whole "I only stunning strike" paradigm is gone as it's poor design imo.

So, exactly what is wrong with a martial class doing martial damage?



Seems like a neat class, but I don't see it as a Monk. The whole -bending thing already leaves me with a bad taste. I know some monks want more mystical abilities, but to me monks avoid outright spellcasting, instead focusing on using their body's own energy. Most of these archetypes are about harnessing the power of outside forces. I don't see the traditional monk flavor represented anywhere here.
The Shadow monk, 4 elements monk, and the Sun Soul monk all exist within 5e. The Shadow monk in my version is nearly identical besides the few extra spells (Shadow monk has 4 spells and 1 cantrip). My firebending monk is the Sun Soul monk with the spells from four elements. Look at "Searing Sunburst" for Sun Soul - it's basically fireball. The other monks are the 4 elements spells with utility for that domain.

The monk in 5e has already involved mystical abilities and spellcasting so what you're saying is you don't want the shadow monk, the sun soul monk, or the 4 elements monk in your games. That's a fine choice to make, but that only leaves the OH monk and the long death monk (2 out of 5 archetypes).

Antioch
2016-10-04, 10:52 AM
I'm very impressed with the amount of consideration that's gone into this rework both with respect to power level, mechanics, and flavor, doubly so with the DPR spreadsheet you've concocted.

Having never played a 5e Monk, I can't speak anecdotally about how the changes might affect me personally, but I'm really hoping to emulate your thought processes going forward with respect to balancing classes, reworked, homebrewed, or otherwise.

Secret Wizard
2016-10-04, 12:48 PM
The Shadow monk, 4 elements monk, and the Sun Soul monk all exist within 5e. The Shadow monk in my version is nearly identical besides the few extra spells (Shadow monk has 4 spells and 1 cantrip). My firebending monk is the Sun Soul monk with the spells from four elements. Look at "Searing Sunburst" for Sun Soul - it's basically fireball. The other monks are the 4 elements spells with utility for that domain.

The monk in 5e has already involved mystical abilities and spellcasting so what you're saying is you don't want the shadow monk, the sun soul monk, or the 4 elements monk in your games. That's a fine choice to make, but that only leaves the OH monk and the long death monk (2 out of 5 archetypes).

I wasn't speaking in absolute terms, I was speaking in terms of a traditional archetype of Monk - dude who punches things and is wise. That doesn't usually come with the ability to manifest elements, shadow or death magic. It's neat that those are options, but if I were one of your players, I'd rue missing the Way of the Open Hand and it's straightforward flavor.

I think that you got too focused in representing the modern Avatar-style monk and lost sight of the Kenshiro that made the class a thing in the first place. Quivering Palm is nowhere to be seen and Stunning Fist is part of the death-themed archetype.

You are missing a supernatural-but-grounded martial artist here and that's a detriment to whatever semblance of balance you may create.

How do I make the aforementioned Kenshiro? How do I make Beatrix Kiddo with these options? How do I make Wong Fei Hung? How do I even make Po from Kung Fu Panda?

Not to mention that Ki Blast baseline seems unnecessary to me and rather violates the usual progression for the Monk that makes them powerful-but-realistic early on and outright-mystical later in the game. It's a progression that has appeared in every iteration of D&D for a reason: because it's great storytelling.

Kryx
2016-10-04, 01:41 PM
I'm very impressed with the amount of consideration that's gone into this rework both with respect to power level, mechanics, and flavor, doubly so with the DPR spreadsheet you've concocted.

Having never played a 5e Monk, I can't speak anecdotally about how the changes might affect me personally, but I'm really hoping to emulate your thought processes going forward with respect to balancing classes, reworked, homebrewed, or otherwise.
Hey, thanks for the feedback. I definitely try to be as thorough as possible with homebrew and hosuerules as there are many who will try to tear it apart (justifiably so). I'm glad you appreciate the effort. :)





I was speaking in terms of a traditional archetype of Monk - dude who punches things and is wise.
The only "traditional" monk in 5e is the open hand monk. I have included open hand technique and wholeness of body into the monk class, but I left out tranquility (because it's bad), and quivering palm (because save or dies aren't fun).

A player preferring to play an open hand style of monk could take this class and ignore all the archetypes. That would result in a monk that is competitive, but not mystical.

If you have suggestions for an archetype that doesn't use spells that can be added on to the core class I'm open to ideas.


But I must express: if you're just here to inform me of how much you dislike the concept then I'd prefer you simply don't post in this thread.

Secret Wizard
2016-10-04, 02:54 PM
But I must express: if you're just here to inform me of how much you dislike the concept then I'd prefer you simply don't post in this thread.


And I must express that if you are needlessly combative, it makes it very hard to wish to engage in a conversation.

Kryx
2016-10-04, 03:42 PM
I literally asked for suggestions for an archetype:


If you have suggestions for an archetype that doesn't use spells that can be added on to the core class I'm open to ideas.

But it is as I feared: You simply don't like the concept and you're just here to argue. There are hundreds of homebrew options that I disagree with, but I don't go into their threads and tell them that they are flavoring the game wrong. Sure, I'll comment on balance or mechanical issues, but telling someone that you disagree with their concept is not a conversation stater. It's an argument starter and aint nobody got time for that.

Antioch
2016-10-04, 03:53 PM
If you have suggestions for an archetype that doesn't use spells that can be added on to the core class I'm open to ideas.

I wouldn't be opposed to a 'Way of the Fist'-esque archetype sans any spellcasting to reflect the more traditional 'unarmed martial artist' themes tied to the Monk class.

Increasing the damage dice of unarmed strike at increments where the Monastic Tradition kicks in, overcoming more resistances and immunities, and a toolbox of ki-empowered unarmed strikes (bringing back Stunning Strike, sharing it between your Long Death archetype as well as this new one).

Pressure point attacks that deal damage in addition to penalizing the victim's stats on a failed Constitution save could be an option here. I'll admit it's not the easiest thing to come up with unique features for a subclass whose hallmark is 'real good punchin', but I can keep giving it some thought.

Throat jab to cripple spellcasters in need of verbal components, muscle-targeting strikes that paralyze or immobilize, a rebalanced Quivering Palm that still carries the same omae wa shinderu flavor from Fist of the North Star. Maybe even pressure points applied beneficially on allies for temporary stat-ups, though I think that one might be a little out of place.

Secret Wizard
2016-10-04, 04:19 PM
I literally asked for suggestions for an archetype:



But it is as I feared: You simply don't like the concept and you're just here to argue. There are hundreds of homebrew options that I disagree with, but I don't go into their threads and tell them that they are flavoring the game wrong. Sure, I'll comment on balance or mechanical issues, but telling someone that you disagree with their concept is not a conversation stater. It's an argument starter and aint nobody got time for that.
It is if it makes you reconsider design tenets.

I'll come up with an archetype when I have free time.

I do think you should reconsider the 2nd level Ki Blast, replace it for 2nd level Flurry, and tie Ki Blast to each archetype if you need to. It diminishes the value of tried and true options such as thrown weapon use.

2nd level in general looks very overloaded.

Kryx
2016-10-04, 05:36 PM
I wouldn't be opposed to a 'Way of the Fist'-esque archetype sans any spellcasting to reflect the more traditional 'unarmed martial artist' themes tied to the Monk class.
Nor would I, though the flavor is a bit missing


Pressure point attacks that deal damage in addition to penalizing the victim's stats on a failed Constitution save could be an option here. I'll admit it's not the easiest thing to come up with unique features for a subclass whose hallmark is 'real good punchin', but I can keep giving it some thought.

Throat jab to cripple spellcasters in need of verbal components, muscle-targeting strikes that paralyze or immobilize, a rebalanced Quivering Palm that still carries the same omae wa shinderu flavor from Fist of the North Star. Maybe even pressure points applied beneficially on allies for temporary stat-ups, though I think that one might be a little out of place.
This is an option - basically like Battle Master, but for a Monk.

Antioch
2016-10-05, 10:25 AM
A little off-topic, but I was curious -- did you do the image editing for the art for your Monk/Sorcerer/Summoner banners, with respect to the white paint / burning effect on the uneven lower edges? I love the effect, and I was wondering how to pull that one off.

Kryx
2016-10-05, 10:35 AM
The process is rather simple:

Find a nice image
feather edges with photoshop brushes

I forget where the brushes can be found. Perhaps https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2x8u77/5e_tried_to_recreate_the_monster_manuals_style/?st=itx2qcsg&sh=6957b9bb or a similar style post. I know it was on reddit somewhere.

Antioch
2016-10-05, 11:04 AM
The process is rather simple:

Find a nice image
feather edges with photoshop brushes

I forget where the brushes can be found. Perhaps https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2x8u77/5e_tried_to_recreate_the_monster_manuals_style/?st=itx2qcsg&sh=6957b9bb or a similar style post. I know it was on reddit somewhere.

Thanks very much! Looks like I've got to give Photoshop a whirl.

Gfrobbin84
2016-10-24, 10:59 PM
I like what you have done here but I miss the lack of of more martial and less mystic monk like the open hand represents I feel. So working on my own rework but going to use some of your ideas, with proper acknowledgement of course, if that is ok?

PapaQuackers
2016-10-28, 09:49 PM
Hi Kryx, I think I'm within the realm of time that I may post in this thread without violating the rules. If not someone is welcome to smite me for my crimes.

I've been mulling over how to execute a non-mystical monk within your rework that is still interesting and not as linear.

I think the way to go about is using Tai Chi-esque stances. I made this as a suggestion to someone's Kensai monk archetype and it's very rough but I think the general idea would fit very well as an archetype for your class and give a less magical alternative.

(Disclaimer this is a rough idea and probably not balanced)

Way Of The Flowing Water:
Entering this stance costs 1 point of Ki and maintaining this stance costs another point of Ki each round.

The way of the flowing water exemplifies using graceful movement to dance around the battlefield, just as water must change to fit the shape that holds it, so to do your attacks change to fit the flow of the battle. While in the stance of the flowing water you gain the following effects.

- Each time you use the disengage action and move at least 15ft you may make a melee attack against a target within range once per turn.
- When taking the dodge action, each time you are attacked, if the target misses, you may move 5ft without using your reaction.
- When you make an attack action while in this stance you may choose to halve all damage you deal in order to double the amount of attacks you make.
- Each time you strike an enemy while taking the disengage action you will recover one point of ki.

Obviously that's just some rough spit balling, but I think it strikes the feeling of making me different than monk who has trained in the mystical arts and utilizes his key to shoot out energy/fire blasts.

I'd love to know what you think and if this idea would be appropriate to what you were aiming for.

Venardhi
2016-10-29, 01:03 AM
I'd be curious to see what you could do with a "Way of Light" emphasizing support/healing/defense/radiant/revealing hidden stuff/dispersing darkness/etc. I've taken a few swings at it as an archetype for the current Monk and it seems like it would be much more suiting to this rework.

Kryx
2016-10-29, 07:00 AM
I'd be curious to see what you could do with a "Way of Light" emphasizing support/healing/defense/radiant/revealing hidden stuff/dispersing darkness/etc. I've taken a few swings at it as an archetype for the current Monk and it seems like it would be much more suiting to this rework.
I've added the Way of Light archetype. I focused on the sun, light, and cleansing light. The Long Death monk is a more of the healing/resurrection type and the way of water has a bit of healing. This focuses on the cleansing powers of light.

Hopefully this lives up to your expectations. It's a first draft so let me know if you notice anything out of place.

Kryx
2016-10-29, 07:07 AM
I'd love to know what you think and if this idea would be appropriate to what you were aiming for.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm probably not the target audience for a fully mundane monk as I find the current setup of mostly martial with some utility a great setup. IMO it's hard to balance that utility vs other options. Possibly I could move spellcasting and Ki Blast to each archetype and then move Disorientating Strike, Knockback Kick, etc to this more martial archetype.
However that complicates a lot in formatting and is hard to find a good balance imo. Plus it'd take away from the martial aspect of the current archetypes which would be a negative imo.

So me not being the target audience makes it a bit harder to jugde. I see you've gone with the ToB style stances which could be cool. You could reference that book for more ideas. Though I'm curious to see what you'd fill out the whole archetype with - stances? What would they get at each tier? To see if this idea meets the needs of people who want a more mundane monk you'd have to ask them.

PapaQuackers
2016-10-29, 09:30 AM
My apologies, I was just responding to your request for suggestions to satisfy those who were lamenting the loss of a less mystical monk.

I like your rework the way it is. I just wanted to offer a helpful alternative.

Kryx
2016-10-29, 10:19 AM
Ah, sorry, I didn't mean to be dismissive. I'm just saying it's difficult and I'm probably not the best person to ask if it fits the needs of those who want less mysticism. It's as difficult as removing Spellcasting from a Paladin.

Israffle
2017-04-29, 06:52 PM
Love your monk rework Kryx, however i still have a soft spot in my heart for the traditional 'Open hand'. Especially the fun use (roleplay, flavor, combat) of Quivering Palm, if you have the time id like to see your take on a monk that doesn't focus so much on elemental bending as it does martial training. I love your rework and it overall is an improvement on the lack of diversity in the monks play style, im however having trouble letting go of the cool factor and fun abilities open hand provides. If you find the time id love to see your take, if not, id love some points to go about making my own.

Kryx
2017-04-30, 04:11 AM
Hi Israffle,

One of 5e's goals was to remove save or die abilities. Throughout the game many abilities changed from save or die to other situations. For example Phantasmal Killer is no longer save or die like it was in Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/phantasmal-killer/). Quivering Palm is one of the few save or die conditions that persisted into 5e.

The way I determine balance is I question: "Would a player find it balanced if I used this ability on them?". Based on that question I'd say most players would be rather upset if I allowed them to make 1 save or their character, who they have put an immense amount of work into, dies.

Based on the design of 5e and that balancing determination it is my opinion that Quivering Palm should not exist in its current form within 5e.



Regarding a monk without magical abilities: Many Open Hand abilities exist already in my version: Open hand technique's 3 bullet points are in the core class under ki: Disorienting Strike, Knockback Kick, and Sweeping Strike. Wholeness of body is in the core class at 9th level. Tranquility and Quivering Palm are the only things missing.

Beyond that the only thing that I can come up with that can compete with the utility of the other monk classes that I've created is creating many ki powered abilities. It would surely be a challenge to create abilities that have enough utility that make the archetype worthwhile.

If you have some ideas for a purely martial monk that is a worthwhile pick I'd happily hear them and try to work on a balanced archetype based on that concept.

Kryx
2017-04-30, 09:41 AM
Updated the formatting of the class to better present the data. Ki Blast has been moved into each archetype and the Ki Features of each have been made more clear with the formatting.

Kryx's Monk (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxGh_mU9ihaPSTRRekRiSEZaWlk)

This formatting could allow for a martial archetype with different 2nd level features (possibly some of the core class Ki Features), but as I said above it'd be difficult to make it a worthwhile choice that competes with the utility of spells.

Kryx
2017-05-01, 08:30 AM
I've added:

Kensei who focuses primarily on ki features - several borrowed from the Battle Master. It has no spellcasting. I am curious for feedback on 1 issue: the Fighting Stance 6th level feature. Other than those two I think the archetype is a competitive option.
Tranquility which is quite similar to the UA transquility monk, but with some spells that make sense.

Israffle
2017-05-04, 05:46 PM
Thank you Kryx, i agree with your sentiment partially but there are many things in 5e that are still save or be reduced to 0 hp (not die) the banshees wail for example, or a well timed disintegrate/beholder death ray.

Thanks for the two extra archetypes. I'm currently trying to figure how to incorporate this monk revamp into my Eberron campaign, but I'm having trouble since the bending disciplines lend themselves much more towards AVATAR then it does to the magic renaissance of Khorvaire. If your familiar with the setting at all id love to hear your thoughts.

Lastly there looks to be a formatting issue for Kensei (its squashed) and Im unable to read it through google drives.

PapaQuackers
2017-05-04, 07:43 PM
Yeah, the PDF version of the Monk rework for the Kensai abilities is broken as well. Sharpen the Blade is all smooshed.

Kryx
2017-05-05, 06:31 AM
Thank you Kryx, i agree with your sentiment partially but there are many things in 5e that are still save or be reduced to 0 hp (not die) the banshees wail for example, or a well timed disintegrate/beholder death ray.
A beholder's death ray is not a save or die: "10. Death Ray. The targeted creature must succeed on a DC 16 Dexterity saving throw or take 55 (10d10) necrotic damage. The target dies if the ray reduces it to 0 hit points"
Disintegrate is straight damage.

You're right that save or die exists in a few places though - banshee's wail I'd argue is bad design as well. One save and everything is over doesn't lead to compelling choices or enjoyment in my experience and it seems that same idea was one of the bigger changes that Wizards made going from 3.5 -> 5e. I can't explain why the few save or dies still exist, but I'd argue that they shouldn't. You're free to disagree and make your own choices.



I'm currently trying to figure how to incorporate this monk revamp into my Eberron campaign, but I'm having trouble since the bending disciplines lend themselves much more towards AVATAR then it does to the magic renaissance of Khorvaire. If your familiar with the setting at all id love to hear your thoughts.
Do you allow a RAW shadow monk? How about a RAW four elements monk? If so then I don't see why my shadow monk or my four elements monk split into 4 actual elements is a flavor problem. Perhaps the name "bending" is putting you off.

zeek0
2017-05-05, 09:38 AM
You make good work.

I'd like to chime in on the theme of the class, as others have. I feel that a monk, at the core, is a martial creature. Archetypes that come to mind do include Aang, but are mostly martial artists - Bruce Lee types. They are characterized by amazing physical control and mental concentration, and capable of incredible physical feats.

I think that, psychologically, the 'bender' is simply an offshoot of this archetype.


If you have suggestions for an archetype that doesn't use spells that can be added on to the core class I'm open to ideas.

I appreciate archetypes best when they represent not only a playstyle, but a philosophy. A fighter, being skilled, draws their power from natural prowess and practice. A monk, being wise, draws their power also from belief. So, we think of various philosophies of martial combat: inner strength, deception, greater strength, superior tactics, and also, transformation of the physical to the magical. There are more, I'm sure.

Ki, in the style of the open hand monk, can handle any of this well. One can even imagine a 'Way of Fire' monk that casts no spells and in fact doesn't create any fire at all - her fire is one of spirit and style, not physical substance.

Note that ther've been few mechanical objections to your homebrew, and each of those you managed quite easily. Also note that ther've been thematic objections, which you've aggressively shrugged off.

Kryx
2017-05-27, 09:37 AM
Any reason you made the monk a caster?
The post above explains it pretty well.

Additionally ki is just a source of energy. Several monk archetypes in existence (Shadow, Sun Soul, Four elements) use that ki to power spells. I simply made it more transparent for those cases.


Oh and the changes o long death feel ...unnecessary. No need for Spells but i guess moving stunning strike there is ok since dissorient is in base. If you keep spells no need for kiblast. Espescialyl since its the same as the shadow ki blast.
What seems unnecessary? Your phrasing is difficult to understand.

Mortis_Elrod
2017-05-27, 10:35 AM
The post above explains it pretty well.

Additionally ki is just a source of energy. Several monk archetypes in existence (Shadow, Sun Soul, Four elements) use that ki to power spells. I simply made it more transparent for those cases.


What seems unnecessary? Your phrasing is difficult to understand.

Okay i can see your point on spells, and im not too put off from it. It just seemed weird to me at first. For the long death monk it seems odd that you would give it Ki Blast. Or rather....i see no point in long death and shadow, who already have very similar themes, have the exact same ki blast. I would trade long death's ki blast with something else.

On another note why piercing instead of cold for water ki blast? you were happy to give fire to the fire ki blast, and cold is only slightly better damage type.

I also noticed 3 extra attacks by 11th level and that all ki blasts can be in place of unarmed strikes so potential ki blasts. This is not a criticism, i actually like this better and wished the sunsoul did the same as it seems off. I Prefer your monk overall then the standard and would probably use this in my future games. It is a bit front loaded but then again so are the rest of the classes, seems weird that i have to wait till 5th level to have my quintessential monk ability of stunning, and i prefer disorient and think monk traditions should be 2nd level like you have them.

TL;DR I like you're homebrew.

Kryx
2017-05-27, 11:18 AM
Hi Mortis,

Thanks for providing feedback!


For the long death monk it seems odd that you would give it Ki Blast. Or rather....i see no point in long death and shadow, who already have very similar themes, have the exact same ki blast. I would trade long death's ki blast with something else.
Ki Blast fits the theme of an archetype that plays with life energies. Necrotic energy is simply the manifestation of decaying energy so flavorwise it makes sense for a Long Death monk to have a ki blast that does necrotic damage. The Lich's Disrupt Life Legendary Action is a good example of a monster ability that is similarly themed.

Similarly Way of Shadow follows the path of other monsters like Shadow that deal necrotic damage.

Some minimal crossover in mechanics isn't a bad thing for somewhat similar archetypes. They should be viewed individually, not as a competition. Does it make sense for a Way of Shadow monk to attack with necrotic energy like a Shadow? Yes. Does it make sense for a Way of Shadow monk to attack with necrotic energy like a Lich? Yes. The duplication between the two isn't so important imo.


On another note why piercing instead of cold for water ki blast? you were happy to give fire to the fire ki blast, and cold is only slightly better damage type.
The choice was a flavorful choice, not a mechanical choice. Water wouldn't do cold damage and it's one of the options so that limits cold as a damage choice. Also see Ice Knife and Ice Storm for examples of ice spells doing damage other than cold. I view ki blasts in this case as small little icicles, not something that explodes into an area of effect in the same way as Ice Knife, hence the piercing damage.


I also noticed 3 extra attacks by 11th level and that all ki blasts can be in place of unarmed strikes so potential ki blasts. This is not a criticism, i actually like this better and wished the sunsoul did the same as it seems off.
Part of the goal here was to allow for monks to not be so dependent on Dexterity, but also allow for full Wisdom based builds. Ki Blast allows that and I'm glad you like it. :)


I Prefer your monk overall then the standard and would probably use this in my future games.
Awesome! Let me know if you have additional feedback. I'm always touching up each of my reworks here and there so I'll make adjustments if something is off. I'm fond of my monk, though it could probably use a few touches to be as high quality as my Sorcerer and Warlock reworks.

Mortis_Elrod
2017-05-27, 12:07 PM
So i see what you're saying for long death. I think my issue is that it Gets a ki blast at all, i'd rather a melee spell attack with necrotic like a drain touch. Long death seems to be a more melee archetype, i think thats my issue. The ki blasts are great for the other elemental monks as well as shadow just seems like ranged isn't what long death should have. On another note I'm gonna look at you're sorcerer and warlock now (they happen to be some of my favorite casters, warlock especially).

Kryx
2017-05-27, 12:26 PM
Hmm, I can see that perspective. But looking at spells like Chill Touch (120 feet), Blight (30 feet), Harm (60 feet), Circle of Death (120 feet, aoe 60'), and Finger of Death (60 feet) I don't think 20/60 is really out of the flavor of life draining energy even if spells like Inflict Wounds and Vampiric touch are both melee. I would say those two spells are the outliers. I'll think on it, but the range is fairly short so it feels ok I think.

That said I'll at least touch up the wording of the ki blast for the Long Death as the description doesn't give the flavor I had in mind.

gkathellar
2017-05-30, 08:07 AM
So, kensai looks good. Only thing worth mentioning is that you could probably satisfy the nonmagical monk niche by letting them use their abilities with or without monk weapons, so ... there's that. More on that in the spoiler.

On the whole, "where's your Open Palm archetype," debate, I think this is just an intractable perception issue. The problem with the magical vs. nonmagical visions of what the monk is or should be is tha the class in general is not very coherent (not your version - yours is better than most). What is a monk? It's a lightly-armored fighting man who punches things, and sometimes can jump good, and occasionally ... uses ... weapons ... uh.

I'm sorry, I lost my train of thought. Was I talking about fighters, or barbarians, or rogues?

Oh, monks! Yeah so arguably "monk-as-fighting-man" doesn't meaningfully distinguish itself from the other martial classes. The obvious solution is to draw on the broad swathe of anime and wuxia archetypes that are often unwelcome additions to those classes, but that leaves the class specialized in punching oddly unable to meet the Bruce Lee-esque master puncher archetype. That archetype is probably better-handled by fighter, rogue, and even barbarian, but just because it's reasonable doesn't mean it feels right. I support your decision to err on the magical side of things, but it's just going to feel wrong to a lot of folks. If you want to push past that, you may want to create a Dragonball-esque archetype, or (a) martial artist archetype(s) for the other classes.

Tranquility looks solid, but it's hard to judge, because it's very different from the other archetypes.

Kryx
2017-05-30, 06:41 PM
letting them use their abilities with or without monk weapons.
I'm not sure what you mean. What abilities should be usable with monk weapons?

Regarding the martial archetype: I fully support keeping kickpuncher within the monk. There are definitely plenty of historical examples of prue martial monks. I think that design space is ripe for the picking, but it's also a design space that is hard for me to fill as I don't have much inspiration on it and the current open hand monk doesn't offer nearly enough to fill an archetype. If there are suggestions to fill an archetype full of purely punching and kicking abilities that stand up to the other archetypes I'd happily add it. Most of what I have done here is just a natural extension of existing works. For example all the elemental archetypes are just four elements split to 4 different archetypes and tranquility and kensei coming from UA.

I also do want to clarify that homebrew will never be for everyone. Inherently I cannot please everyone and it has never been my goal. I don't mean to be dismissive of others opinions, but my project is mainly for myself and my players. I'm happy to share it and many of the the choices I make are made with the larger community in mind, but ultimately its my vision of the class and people will either like it or not - that's up to them.

Kryx
2017-06-17, 09:58 AM
I've added the Soulknife subclass which absorbs my old Soulknife (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxGh_mU9ihaPeDVBa0pCOE5WclU) standalone class.

Cognomore
2017-07-29, 05:59 PM
Hi Kryx. Can you confirm my understanding of the number of unarmed attacks your monks get as they advance?

I think it's 2 @1st, 3 @3rd, 4 @5th and 5 @11th.

I wasn't sure if Flurry of Blows gave an additional unarmed attack at 5th and 11th due to Extra Attack ... so 5 @5th and 7 @11th.

Thanks

Kryx
2017-07-29, 06:03 PM
Hi Kryx. Can you confirm my understanding of the number of unarmed attacks your monks get as they advance?

I think it's 2 @1st, 3 @3rd, 4 @5th and 5 @11th.

I wasn't sure if Flurry of Blows gave an additional unarmed attack at 5th and 11th due to Extra Attack ... so 5 @5th and 7 @11th.

2 attacks at 1st level (attack + martial arts)
3 attacks at 3rd level (attack + martial arts + flurry of blows)
4 attacks at 5th level (attack + extra attack + martial arts + flurry of blows)
5 attacks at 11th level (attack + extra attack + extra attack + martial arts + flurry of blows)

Attack + extra attacks can be monk weapons, martial arts and flurry of blows must be unarmored strikes.

kmancet
2019-01-15, 03:15 AM
Seems that all of the links to google docs are dead, can you maybe reupload this?

Kryx
2019-01-15, 03:22 AM
Hey, you can see my latest rules and monk at https://marklenser.com/5e/character/classes/Monk

I'll update the OP links later today.