Help With Making a "Stealthy Archer"

[ATHATH]

A friend of mine has asked me to build a "Stealthy Archer" for him for the upcoming Lost Mine of Phandelver adventure that I'm running. We already have a Blastlock (Fiend Patron) and a refluffed Oathbreaker Paladin that specializes in smashing stuff with either a greatsword or a glaive (depending on his level). Both of them are going to stay in their classes for all five levels. Multiclassing and feats are both allowed, by the way.

I was originally going to just build my friend a straight Wood Elf (Wood Elven?) Rogue, but I realized that the Blastlock would probably out-damage him even when he is getting sneak attacks. I think I have a couple of viable options for what to build for him:

1. Arcane Trickster 5. The out-of-combat utility of spells can make the Rogue feel useful, and I'm pretty sure that you can Sneak Attack with spells.
2. Arcane Trickster 3/Illusionist 2. Similar to the above, but trades 1d6 of SA damage for more spells (including 2nd level spell slots (but not spells known)) and better illusions.
3. Assassin 3/UA Ranger Variant 2. Snags both Ambuscade and Fighting Style. Might end some combats before they properly begin, which could harm the play experience for other players. Ambuscade might mess up a "Hard Mode" version of the Black Spider fight that I plan to ask the players OOC if they want to do instead of the normal version. For those interested, it replaces the Giant Spiders with a 5th level Favored Soul (Nature), and takes advantage of the Stinking Cloud+Web+pre-cast Plant Growth wombo-combo (it's quite hard, but if it causes a TPK, I can probably just revert the party where they were just before the fight and use the printed version of it).
4. Assassin 4/UA Ranger 1. See 3, but replace Fighting Style with a feat.
5. UA Ranger 5. A full UA Ranger looks pretty fun/cool to play, but Ambuscade still looks like it will be problematic.
6. Assassin 3/Fighter 2. Trades 1d6 of SA damage for extra crit-boosted attacks. Seems decent.
7. Ranger (Hunter) 5. Seems decent, and three attacks per round might feel powerful for a new player.

Any thoughts? Should I just ask him directly which of the above options he wants to play (character creation/optimization might overwhelm him with numbers and complexity(?) and make him not want to play, though...)?

[thedanster7000]

If you're using Ranger, see if you can use the Unearthed Arcana one, because, well, it's better.

[Sir cryosin]

Um you can sneak attack with a spell.

[Sir cryosin]

Have him play a fighter battlemaster.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I dunno about your assumption, honestly. A blastlock at level 5 would be doing 2d10+8, for an average of 19; a elf rogue would be doing 4d6+4, for an average of 18-- only one point down, and if you get a longbow you're even. Blastlock gets two chances, but Cunning Action means you're almost certainly doing yours at Advantage. Blastlock can add Hex for another 2d6 (total 26), but the Rogue can pick up Sharpshooter instead of the ASI for a net gain of 9 (total 27; or 28 if you nab it with vHuman or use a longbow).

If you really want you can go vHuman for Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter, which gives you superior damage (2d6+26) even without sneak attack-- with it you're up to 43.5 average damage, which blows the poor Blastlock out of the water. If you go that route, it might be worth dropping a level of Rogue for Fighter, which loses you a d6 of sneak attack and Uncanny Dodge, but nets you Archery Style for +2.

EDIT: And of course that's only at level 5; up until then the Rogue will be ahead even without feats. At level one you're taking 2d6+3 (10.5) vs, at best, d10+d6 (9); at level two the Warlock gets +3 damage (12) but the Rogue probably has the accuracy advantage; at level three the Rogue gains another die of sneak attack and pulls ahead in raw damage as well (3d6+3 for 14 average). Level four either can get +1 damage but only the Rogue can get Sharpshooter. And, you know, all of this analysis is including Hex, which a level 1-4 warlock probably won't be able to have up for every fight.

[ATHATH]

I dunno about your assumption, honestly. A blastlock at level 5 would be doing 2d10+8, for an average of 19; a elf rogue would be doing 4d6+4, for an average of 18-- only one point down, and if you get a longbow you're even. Blastlock gets two chances, but Cunning Action means you're almost certainly doing yours at Advantage. Blastlock can add Hex for another 2d6 (total 26), but the Rogue can pick up Sharpshooter instead of the ASI for a net gain of 9 (total 27; or 28 if you nab it with vHuman or use a longbow).

If you really want you can go vHuman for Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter, which gives you superior damage (2d6+26) even without sneak attack-- with it you're up to 43.5 average damage, which blows the poor Blastlock out of the water. If you go that route, it might be worth dropping a level of Rogue for Fighter, which loses you a d6 of sneak attack and Uncanny Dodge, but nets you Archery Style for +2.

EDIT: And of course that's only at level 5; up until then the Rogue will be ahead even without feats. At level one you're taking 2d6+3 (10.5) vs, at best, d10+d6 (9); at level two the Warlock gets +3 damage (12) but the Rogue probably has the accuracy advantage; at level three the Rogue gains another die of sneak attack and pulls ahead in raw damage as well (3d6+3 for 14 average). Level four either can get +1 damage but only the Rogue can get Sharpshooter. And, you know, all of this analysis is including Hex, which a level 1-4 warlock probably won't be able to have up for every fight.
Ah. Thanks for the number-crunching.

Did you include the reduced accuracy when you calculated the average damage of the Sharpshooter Rogue?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ah. Thanks for the number-crunching.

Can't the Warlock use his feat for more damage too?
I mean, in theory, but there's not much that he can really apply to a cantrip. Spell Sniper bumps the range and accuracy somewhat, but that's about it-- no Sharpshooter/Polearm Master/Great Weapon Master/Shield Master... in theory you could use War Caster, but that seems problematic for a ranged blaster.

[Specter]

Ranger 5. Three words: Pass Without Trace. If it's Stealth you want, no better way to go.

[Kryx]

You can compare a Rogue vs an EB Warlock on DPR of Classes in my signature.

Rogue and Ranger do plenty of good damage - better than EB until 17+ when he starts using Forewight.

So if you want to play a Rogue or Ranger then by all means go ahead.

[BoutsofInsanity]

First thing to remember, poison is multiplied by criticals.
Second, Sneak attack is multiplied by criticals.
Third, Assassinate auto Criticals from the Rogue Level 3 archtype.

2d6 Sneak attack is 4d6
2d6 Poison is 4d6
Your Longbow is 2d8
Then, you add Sharpshooter and you have advantage now when hiding, which allows for the above, you can attack at long range, and add 10 damage to your attack.

Finish this off by going Fighter or Ranger for the ranged combat style to add +2 to hit. Have a good dex, you can hide from far off, and drop poor fools who you sneak up on.

Long range bowmen.

[Belac93]

Um you can sneak attack with a spell.

Can't actually. If you use booming blade or greenflame blade however, then it works.

Be a rogue, because when you hit an enemy with a ranged attack, you automatically see you, so you need the bonus action hide. Also, take the skulker feat, so that you don't get detected when you miss.

[ATHATH]

Can't actually. If you use booming blade or greenflame blade however, then it works.

Be a rogue, because when you hit an enemy with a ranged attack, you automatically see you, so you need the bonus action hide. Also, take the skulker feat, so that you don't get detected when you miss.
Actually, the text for SA just specifies an "attack". Spells with attack rolls (like Chromatic Orb, but not spells like Magic Missile or Burning Hands) should qualify for SA damage.

Side note: While thinking about the UA Ranger, a connection clicked between the summonable bear and the Folk Hero background that I had chosen for the Rogue that I made for him. What if I made my friend's character a (stereotypical, exaggerated) Communist, and had the bear be a physical manifestation of his devotion for Communism?

EDIT: And since UA Ranger gives you two more weapons than you really need... Hammer and sickle, anyone?

[Sabeta]

The next sentence reads "The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon", so no you can't sneak attack with spells. Do be sure to read how abilities work before building a character.

Anyway, there isn't much stealthy about a lumbering bear and he's extreme communist compatriot. I agree that either a Rogue Assassin, Fighter Battle master, or Ranger do it best.

Ranger gets Pass Without Trace, which is full stop the best stealth you can have short of being invisible.

Fighter gets you insane DPR and Maneuvers. It's the least stealthy of the bunch, but good for the utility it brings your party

Rogue gets you Sneak Expertise, bit you lose out on Archery Fighting Style.

I would say of your friend cares more about stealth than DPR, and/or wants his bow to do tons of damage then go Rogue. If he wants more DPR but a little less stealth he should pick up a crossbow on a Fighter.

I have a hunch hell want Rogue more.

[Citan]

A friend of mine has asked me to build a "Stealthy Archer" for him for the upcoming Lost Mine of Phandelver adventure that I'm running. We already have a Blastlock (Fiend Patron) and a refluffed Oathbreaker Paladin that specializes in smashing stuff with either a greatsword or a glaive (depending on his level). Both of them are going to stay in their classes for all five levels. Multiclassing and feats are both allowed, by the way.

I was originally going to just build my friend a straight Wood Elf (Wood Elven?) Rogue, but I realized that the Blastlock would probably out-damage him even when he is getting sneak attacks. I think I have a couple of viable options for what to build for him:

Hi!

First, the only spells on which you can use Sneak Attack are the "weapon cantrip" spells. No other spell. Because you need a weapon attack made with a finesse weapon.

Beyond that, a plain Arcane Trickster can do well, but I'd prefer a Ranger because of the Fighting Style, Extra attack and some spells such as Pass Without Trace (which you can also get as Rogue, but only at 8th level).
So I'd suggest just a dip in Rogue for Stealth Expertise on a Ranger chassis.

Another build that could work for your concept would be a Valor Bard (with a Fighter 1 dip maybe for Archery and Constitution saving throws): you can also get Expertise in Stealth, and you get Invisibility then later Greater Invisibility that can be better in some situations. At higher level you can also poach Swift Quiver to get 4 attacks per turn.

Or, if you like the Arcane Trickster chassis, dip Druid 3 levels to get a bunch of useful spells and more spell slots to use them, including Pass Without Trace. Even better, dip Trickery Cleric: you get Pass Without Trace as a domain spell, many buffs to help you hit or protect (Bless, Shield of Faith, Mirror Image) and the Channel Divinity works wonder to enable Sneak Attack.
Actually this may be work the best (main drawback is lack of Archery style but can be compensated by Bless).

TL;DR


Ranger 6 (Archery, Extra Attack, Pass Without Trace, Hunter's Mark)

Valor Bard 6 (Stealth Expertise, Extra Attack, Swift Quiver, Invisibility) or Valor Bard 5 / Fighter 1 (add Archery and Constitution saving throws).

Arcane Trickster 3 / Trickery Cleric 3 (Stealth Expertise, Sneak Attack, Cunning Action, Duplicity advantage, Mirror Image, Pass Without Trace + bunch of good buff spells)

Arcane Trickster 3 / Land Druid 3 (still Pass Without Trace, movement buff and utilities, ability to scout/hide easier with Wild Shape).

There are yet other possibilities, but probably overly complex compared to the result, so I sticked with these. I didn't speak of purely martial builds though because I'm too fond of magic, but it can work too: like mixing any Rogue (Thief, Assassin) with any Fighter (Champion or Battlemaster) can do wonders.
Good choice and have fun!


Ranger gets Pass Without Trace, which is full stop the best stealth you can have short of being invisible.

Actually I'd say in some occasions it's even better than Invisibility, considering the fact it lasts longer, affects many creatures and most important of all, "you leave no traces of your passage".
Thinking about the case when you progress while invisible but because of dirty ground your steps are visible ^^.
On the contrary, sometimes being invisible is the only way to bypass a place.
So I'd say those are very complementary spells. ;)

[JackPhoenix]

First thing to remember, poison is multiplied by criticals.
Second, Sneak attack is multiplied by criticals.
Third, Assassinate auto Criticals from the Rogue Level 3 archtype.

2d6 Sneak attack is 4d6
2d6 Poison is 4d6
Your Longbow is 2d8
Then, you add Sharpshooter and you have advantage now when hiding, which allows for the above, you can attack at long range, and add 10 damage to your attack.

Finish this off by going Fighter or Ranger for the ranged combat style to add +2 to hit. Have a good dex, you can hide from far off, and drop poor fools who you sneak up on.

Long range bowmen.

Poison is NOT multiplied by criticals, it's not dependant on attack roll, but on saving throw. While some creatures have poison attacks that can crit, no such option is available to players.

[Sir cryosin]

Can't actually. If you use booming blade or greenflame blade however, then it works.

Be a rogue, because when you hit an enemy with a ranged attack, you automatically see you, so you need the bonus action hide. Also, take the skulker feat, so that you don't get detected when you miss.

I ment can't sneak attack with spells.

[DragonSorcererX]

Half-Sun/Moon Elf (SCAG Variant, Elven Weapon Training) Rogue Assassin, you will get Longbow, Darkvision and, sort of, Human Roleplay (If you don't like to RP as an Elf).

[Theodoxus]

I'm playing with a guy who went Underdark stalker with close range archery (whatever it's called) for 5 levels and then rogue for a few more for assassin (we're 7th currently). At 4th, he grabbed Skulker.

He is so damn sneaky, our DM is constantly having trouble getting this guy hurt. We're in the underdark, so that definitely helps (being in darkness allows you to hide basically in plain sight). He attacks then bonus action hides; next round he snipes with advantage, and then moves a bit, and hides again. He has PwT on every chance he gets. He has expertise in Stealth, so he typically gets in the mid to upper 20s on stealth checks.

[ATHATH]

Report: After I posted my previous post (and before reading the rest of the posts after that), I decided to build my friend a UA ranger. We ran the first game earlier today, and things went reasonably well. He did seem a bit bored, though, possibly due to the antics of the other players overshadowing him. Interestingly, he nearly charged in with his light hammer and sickle in the first combat instead of using his bow, and scouted ahead once (then turned back as soon as he saw the wolves in the cave).

@Citan: Unfortunately, I'm not building these characters for 6th level- the adventure only goes up to 5th level. I already have plenty of character ideas for 6th level.

@Sabeta: Thanks for the SA clarification.