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View Full Version : Rules Q&A Shadowcraft Mage: Shadow Illusion (Su)



Gruftzwerg
2016-08-28, 12:47 AM
Hi folks, I am thinking for a longer time about a build around the "Shadow Illusion" ability.
But after reading many guides and threads about it, I discovered that I had a totally different opinion about how to read the ability. I put many thoughts into it even after discovering it, but I can't help it and feel the need for a lil discussion^^
So pls let me hear what you think about my interpretations of the ability. I will go sentence by sentence.
Last said before we start: Lets keep in mind that abilities who alter other abilities may either add or even exchange the rules/ruletext of the altered ability.

Shadow Illusion (Su):

Beginning at 3rd level, a shadowcraft mage is able to infuse some of her figments (see the list below) with material from the Plane of Shadow, making them partially real.
Imho, the sentence indicates that the figment is already in place. It doesn't mention that it is cast as shadow spell as it is the common interpretation on the i-net.


The subschool of these spells changes from figment to shadow.
again nothing about a cast. the subschool of a spell already in place could also be changed.



A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell.
Again nothing about a the spell being cast as shadow spell. imho it reads again, "alter a figment into a shadow"-ability.



The altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell, except that the spell's strength equals 10% per level of the figment spell used.
Same as the last one (altered spell).


For example, a shadowcraft mage who uses silent image to create an acid splash would deal 10% of the normal damage to a creature that succeeds on its Will save to disbelieve the shadow. If she used programmed image to mimic summon monster V, the creature would have 60% of the hit points of a normal creature of its kind, and its damage would be 60% normal against a creature that succeeds on its Will save to disbelieve.
Just the rules about the mimic effect. Nothing to argue here.


A shadowcraft mage can apply shadow illusion to any of the following figment spells: silent image, minor image, major image, persistent image, and programmed image.
This is the only sentence, where I could see the possibility that the ability affects the casting and not the figment already in place. But it could also fit the description how I see the ability. Imho all other sentences indicates otherwise and it feels wrong to me to write something that important in the last sentence of the ruletext.

My conclusion:

If I am right, you would first need to cast the figment spell and than in the next round can start to alter it. And yeah, you could alter it every round for the full duration of the figment spell after the first. But imho the shadow spell is limited by the "range" and "effect" limits from the figment spell (is it in "range"? does it fit into the "effect" space?).

my interpretation would have ups and downs compared to the common interpretation.
You could use the same figment multiple times, cause the illusion spell lets you alter the figments (-produce more-) for the duration.
But your "shadow grease" wouldn't cover as much space as an original if you only use silent image, cause silent image has a smaller effect radius than grease.
And shadow summons could only move within the range of the figment spell.


I'm confused. Maybe you too after reading this. Pls share your thoughts. Do I see this totally wrong? Or are the rules just written so wonky that you could see it either way? Can at least anybody else see why I am in a dilemma here`?^^ *help*

InvisibleBison
2016-08-28, 02:06 AM
I definitely see where you're coming from, but I'm pretty sure your interpretation is wrong, based on the last line of the ability. Shadow Illusion can be applied to silent image and minor image, which both have a duration of concentration. This means you have to spend a standard action each round to keep the spell going. However, since Shadow Illusion doesn't specify what sort of action it requires, it follows the general rule for supernatural abilities, namely that using it takes a standard action. Thus, you can't apply Shadow Illusion to these two spells, because if you use your standard action to use Shadow Illusion, the spell has ended because you're not concentrating on it.

Gruftzwerg
2016-08-28, 04:18 AM
I definitely see where you're coming from, but I'm pretty sure your interpretation is wrong, based on the last line of the ability. Shadow Illusion can be applied to silent image and minor image, which both have a duration of concentration. This means you have to spend a standard action each round to keep the spell going. However, since Shadow Illusion doesn't specify what sort of action it requires, it follows the general rule for supernatural abilities, namely that using it takes a standard action. Thus, you can't apply Shadow Illusion to these two spells, because if you use your standard action to use Shadow Illusion, the spell has ended because you're not concentrating on it.

ty for your nice and polite reply^^
you almost convinced me. But isn't the "Shadow Illusion" ability itself part of the "concentration"? I mean, while you concentrate you change the outcome effect of you spell. And Shadow Illusion just alters that and is part of the concentration action. You can "while you concentrate" apply Shadow Illusions to it. I know it doesn't state explicitly that way in the text, but neither does it clearly points out that the spell is being cast as shadow spell..

ExLibrisMortis
2016-08-28, 07:43 AM
You're reading a lot into it that just isn't there. "Altering a spell" happens before casting (during preparation) or during casting (for spontaneous casters), never after casting, unless specified (compare the Incantatrix' Metamagic Effect). Once cast, a spell is independant of its caster, unless there is an explicit exception.

Shadow Illusion makes the altered spell function like shadow conjuration or shadow evocation. These spells mimic spells during (as part of) casting, not after casting, and they mimic one spell at the time.

Gruftzwerg
2016-08-28, 12:46 PM
You're reading a lot into it that just isn't there.
Maybe, but I think the same about the common interpretation (since the "cast" isn't mentioned).

"Altering a spell" happens before casting (during preparation) or during casting (for spontaneous casters), never after casting, unless specified (compare the Incantatrix' Metamagic Effect).
huh? Do you say it works like metamagic and a wizard would need to prepare the spells as shadowspells? I'm getting more confused here, sry.. Metamagic isn't mentioned in the ability (shadow illusion) and imho it isn't one. Compare it with Incantatrix, where it is explicit mentioned that it works like metamagic for sorcerer. Totally different ruling text and only the ability of the Incantatrix is pointing out that it counts as metamagic.
Can you give me a refference to any rule text where it is mentioned that altering a spell is "always" considered before/while casting the spell? Otherwise I have to assume that is is just an assumption ;)


Once cast, a spell is independant of its caster, unless there is an explicit exception.
Well, (most) illusions are an exception. Cause if you need to concentrate to determine the further effects each round, the illusion isn't independent. (at least imho, dunno if I did get it wrong here.?)


Shadow Illusion makes the altered spell function like shadow conjuration or shadow evocation. These spells mimic spells during (as part of) casting, not after casting, and they mimic one spell at the time.

From my POV, i could also say that you/the common interpretation is reading to much into it. Cause if you can squeeze in "cast" where it isn't there (in the text), I could squeeze in "effect" and it would read like this: Shadow Illusion makes the altered spell "effect" function like shadow conjuration or shadow evocation.
See what happend? assuming words that aren't there doesn't help at all to clear the situation imho.
And yeah, it mimics a spell like a shadow conjuration/evocation cast (yeah, here it mimics the spell being cast), but the questions remains: Do you need to have already an illusion(-effect) to apply the ability to, or do you apply it to the spell(-cast)? In other words: Do I cast the shadow spell, or does the Shadow Illusion ability alter the illusion(-effect) to cast the shadow spell? :smallconfused:

For me the ability description isn't clear enough. But since it seems that I am alone with this opinion/POV, I should assume that I am wrong.. ^^
maybe I just lived to long with the wrong impression of the ability and that's the reason why the common interpretation feels so wrong to me. I guess I need some time..

ExLibrisMortis
2016-08-28, 01:45 PM
huh? Do you say it works like metamagic and a wizard would need to prepare the spells as shadowspells? I'm getting more confused here, sry.. Metamagic isn't mentioned in the ability (shadow illusion) and imho it isn't one. Compare it with Incantatrix, where it is explicit mentioned that it works like metamagic for sorcerer. Totally different ruling text and only the ability of the Incantatrix is pointing out that it counts as metamagic.
Shadow Illusion is not a metamagic ability, but like Metamagic Effect, it allows you to modify a spell. Since you can't usually modify a spell post-casting, Shadow Illusion would need the same explicit exception that Metamagic Effect has, to allow such modification.

A wizard possibly does need to prepare spells as shadow spells, because of the different subschool and effect, but I can see that going either way. As-is, I'm not sure there are any effects that depend on it, but there could be. For example, let's say you have a reserve feat dependant on available [shadow] spells. Such a feat would not be usable with a prepared [figment] spell, making the distinction relevant from the moment you prepare the spell.


Can you give me a refference to any rule text where it is mentioned that altering a spell is "always" considered before/while casting the spell? Otherwise I have to assume that is is just an assumption ;)
It's the other way around: you can't do it, unless there is a rule for it. Can you provide a rule that you can change a spell post-casting? Unless you can provide that rule, you should assume, as I am, that you can't.


Well, (most) illusions are an exception. Cause if you need to concentrate to determine the further effects each round, the illusion isn't independent. (at least imho, dunno if I did get it wrong here.?)
Variables like save DC, caster level, school, subschool, and spell level are fixed, even for Duration: Concentration spells. You can only modify the spell because the effect allows it; normally, you can't, even for spells that require concentration.

The Shadow Illusion ability lacks any language that specifically allows you to modify the spell post-casting, therefore you can't. In addition, the ability causes a spell to function like shadow conjuration/evocation, which inherit their range, effect, and duration from the spell they mimic, and thus do not have Duration: Concentration (usually). Some of the allowed spells (programmed image and persistent image) do not have Duration: Concentration to begin with, so they are independant in every way.


From my POV, i could also say that you/the common interpretation is reading to much into it. Cause if you can squeeze in "cast" where it isn't there (in the text), I could squeeze in "effect" and it would read like this: Shadow Illusion makes the altered spell "effect" function like shadow conjuration or shadow evocation.
I'm not 'squeezing in' what you are squeezing in. You are reading that you can do something that isn't normally allowed, despite any indication that you can. I am reading that you can't do what isn't normally allowed, therefore what you can do must be the usual, that is, modifying a spell before or during casting.


maybe I just lived to long with the wrong impression of the ability and that's the reason why the common interpretation feels so wrong to me. I guess I need some time..
Since joining this board, this has happened to me so many times, I've lost track. It's natural development :smalltongue:.

Gruftzwerg
2016-08-28, 02:41 PM
Shadow Illusion is not a metamagic ability, but like Metamagic Effect, it allows you to modify a spell. Since you can't usually modify a spell post-casting, Shadow Illusion would need the same explicit exception that Metamagic Effect has, to allow such modification.

...

Can you provide a rule that you can change a spell post-casting? Unless you can provide that rule, you should assume, as I am, that you can't.
...
You can only modify the spell because the effect allows it; normally, you can't, even for spells that require concentration.

The Shadow Illusion ability lacks any language that specifically allows you to modify the spell post-casting, therefore you can't.

As said, Illusions are already capable of being modified each round (those with concentration) and imho Shadow Illusion just enhances this by the sentence "a shadowcraft mage is able to infuse some of her figments (see the list below) with material from the Plane of Shadow, making them partially real."
Maybe I'm wrong I dunno, but I am still confused..




Some of the allowed spells (programmed image and persistent image) do not have Duration: Concentration to begin with, so they are independant in every way.
either they have Concentration or they are scripted. And a script is nothing else as what you would/could do while concentrating on an manipulatable illusion.



In addition, the ability causes a spell to function like shadow conjuration/evocation, which inherit their range, effect, and duration from the spell they mimic, and thus do not have Duration: Concentration (usually).
They way I see it, the shadow spell would copy all spell stats too, but is limited by the stats of the illusion/figment spell, cause imho it functions like a breeding ground. I guess breeding ground describes really well what appears in my mind when I read the ability.


Since joining this board, this has happened to me so many times, I've lost track. It's natural development :smalltongue:.

Well, i guess I should take some sleep now and maybe morning I won't fell so confused anymore..^^