CC combo: Booming Blade + Dissonant Whiispers

[Dalebert]

I was recently reminded that Dissonant Whispers doesn't trigger the extra damage from BB because it's not willing movement. But then it occurred to me that this makes it an excellent crowd control combo. You BB them and then Quicken a DW or have someone else use a forced movement effect. Now the creature is still under the effects of BB and is not close enough to attack and will have to choose whether to take damage so it can close to attack.

Other good combos if used in conjuction with multiple casters in your party are BB and Thornwhip or Eldritch Blast with knockback. You could keep a heavy-hitter from being close enough to attack every other round or so or else get to deal extra damage, a win-win.

[RSP]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why wouldn't DW activate BB? My understanding is "forced movement" is when a character doesn't use any of its movement, like Repelling Blast moves someone 10' back but doesn't use up 10' of their movement. DW specifically states the target moves its full movement, which to me means BB would trigger.

[Dalebert]

"Forced" is not the language in BB's description. It says "willing" movement triggers it and it's hard to argue that DW movement is willing.

[RSP]

Gotcha. I was going off the Opportunity Attack rules. Not sure what qualifies as "willingly moves." Technically, DW is a "willing" movement, that is, the target is so pained they move away, but obviously this is fluff based and based on DM interpretation.

I'd be curious if there is a ruling on "willing." Does it include compulsion effects like Suggestion, where essentially the character under the effect is unwilling, willingly moving?

Thanks for pointing that out.

[RickAllison]

Gotcha. I was going off the Opportunity Attack rules. Not sure what qualifies as "willingly moves." Technically, DW is a "willing" movement, that is, the target is so pained they move away, but obviously this is fluff based and based on DM interpretation.

I'd be curious if there is a ruling on "willing." Does it include compulsion effects like Suggestion, where essentially the character under the effect is unwilling, willingly moving?

Thanks for pointing that out.

I think the intended division of forced or willing movement is whether it is under the user's power. Movement like from a Shove or Repelling Blast is not under the target's power, while Suggestion or DW doesn't force movement, it causes the target to choose to move against normal will.

[Dalebert]

I think the intended division of forced or willing movement is whether it is under the user's power. Movement like from a Shove or Repelling Blast is not under the target's power, while Suggestion or DW doesn't force movement, it causes the target to choose to move against normal will.

Honestly, that's my take on it as well. I'm having a hard time pressing the "I believe" button that the cantrip's effect has anything to do with what's going on inside the target's head. "Oh, the creature is moving but his mind is being manipulated!" But there have been extended threads on this in the past and the consensus seems to have been that "willing" excludes being mentally forced as well as physically forced.

*shrug*

In a certain sense, you're messing with the target's head and filling with a moment of primal terror from the whispers. The target then "willingly" flees from the momentary fear effect.

[Plaguescarred]

I'd be curious if there is a ruling on "willing." There's one from Jeremy Crawford http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/08/would-the-movement-caused-by-dissonant-whispers-be-willing-or-unwilling-movement/


@thomas_conners Would the movement caused by a failed save on Dissonant Whispers be willing or unwilling movement?
@JeremyECrawford If a spell forces you to move, as dissonant whispers does, you're not moving of your own volition.
@BobbyBarbarians Does that mean the movement from Dissonant Whispers doesn't provoke opportunity attacks?
@JeremyECrawford The movement in dissonant whispers can provoke opportunity attacks, since it uses your reaction (PH, 195).

[RickAllison]

There's one from Jeremy Crawford http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/08/would-the-movement-caused-by-dissonant-whispers-be-willing-or-unwilling-movement/


@thomas_conners Would the movement caused by a failed save on Dissonant Whispers be willing or unwilling movement?
@JeremyECrawford If a spell forces you to move, as dissonant whispers does, you're not moving of your own volition.
@BobbyBarbarians Does that mean the movement from Dissonant Whispers doesn't provoke opportunity attacks?
@JeremyECrawford The movement in dissonant whispers can provoke opportunity attacks, since it uses your reaction (PH, 195).

Okay, that's weird but makes sense.

[Dalebert]

Is there anything where he specifically addresses Booming Blade? It never came up in that discussion. To me what makes logical sense is for it to follow the same rules as AoO.

[Battlebooze]

Okay, that's weird but makes sense.

Not to blame you for that freaky ruling, but it makes no sense at all. I think it's pretty obvious that the cantrip should trigger on any movement that isn't forced. Giving a simple attack Cantrip the ability to sense "intent of movement" is ludicrous.

That is the realm of Star Trek doors, who don't open if you lean on them for support, but do open if you want to go outside.

[Dalebert]

Giving a simple attack Cantrip the ability to sense "intent of movement" is ludicrous.

My thoughts exactly. There's a physical force surrounding the target and that force should interact in specific ways to certain kinds of movement. It's just bizarre that your motivations for moving figure into it at all. I can totally buy someone shoving you, or blasting you back, or pulling you with a Thornwhip wouldn't trigger it.

Frankly, I just also hate inconsistency. The rules for AoO make sense as they are and it just feels right that you use the same criteria for judging this, particularly with 5e and its stated goal to be simpler.

EDIT: You know what? It might not be Crawford's rules but that's going to be the ruling at my table. BB extra dmg will trigger in the same way that AoO trigger. I don't hold it against anyone who wants to adhere more strictly to the SA rulings. That said, I will also try to follow the descriptions of specific spells. For instance, Fear says they will avoid danger in their path. That can certainly be construed to include a BB field and thus prevent them running at all until it fades.

[Plaguescarred]

They're kind of forced movement (using your own action or reaction) its not a willing movement since you don't have the choice to do so.

[Plaguescarred]

Charm effect that plays with your mind and cause you to pull back in pain without necessarily wanting to do so makes sense to me for Dissonant Whisper

[rollingForInit]

Not to blame you for that freaky ruling, but it makes no sense at all. I think it's pretty obvious that the cantrip should trigger on any movement that isn't forced. Giving a simple attack Cantrip the ability to sense "intent of movement" is ludicrous.

That is the realm of Star Trek doors, who don't open if you lean on them for support, but do open if you want to go outside.

It makes sense so far as the question that was posted to Crawford. The movement from DW is not willing. That should be obvious. It still provokes an opportunity attacks, because nobody cares if you walk away willingly or not.

I'd say the same should apply to BB - perhaps the wording on that cantrip is the one that's off?

Also, I've always seen a difference between "forced movement" and "not willing".
Not willing: something caused by a compulsion.
Forced movement: Something that doesn't use up the creatures movement, e.g. being shoved, knocked back by Repellent Blast, or something similar.

I can see why Forced movement wouldn't provoke any attacks.

[Saggo]

Okay, that's weird but makes sense.

If that's their justification, then it gets even weirder with Fear, which is no more of your own volition than Dissonant Whispers.

Their insistence on natural language and avoiding technical definitions only seems to make things murky.

[Theodoxus]

Having used BB since SCAG released, I've yet to have the movement portion go off - either as a player, or a DM. I'm going to just houserule the cascading force as a Faraday Cage - you move out of it, you get zapped. Forced, coerced or voluntary - doesn't matter - you move, zap. This will build synergy between teammates - especially my bad guys ;) Swashbuckler hits with BB, Warlock blows them back with EB.

[Plaguescarred]

Having used BB since SCAG released, I've yet to have the movement portion go off - either as a player, or a DM.Then it worked as intended as a movement dissuader it's not a issue but a feature that the spell puts a hard choice on the target to either stay there or leave and take damage. If course as usual if one of the two choices doesn't have an enought sifnificant consequence then it appears to be a bit of a let down. But if Booming Blade is used on a target already in an area of effect that will deal damage for exemple, then its become a no win situation or catch-22 #damnedifyoudodamnedifyoudon't

[Maxilian]

I was recently reminded that Dissonant Whispers doesn't trigger the extra damage from BB because it's not willing movement. But then it occurred to me that this makes it an excellent crowd control combo. You BB them and then Quicken a DW or have someone else use a forced movement effect. Now the creature is still under the effects of BB and is not close enough to attack and will have to choose whether to take damage so it can close to attack.

Other good combos if used in conjuction with multiple casters in your party are BB and Thornwhip or Eldritch Blast with knockback. You could keep a heavy-hitter from being close enough to attack every other round or so or else get to deal extra damage, a win-win.

You could also use BB and use your bonus action attack to shove them away (As a lvl 7 EK)