Is there a list of feat tax fixes around?

[Ken Murikumo]

I see people post about them often enough, but i cannot recall an extensive list of suggestions or ideas that are generally accepted as good. Googling returns scraps of info, but nothing cohesive. The only exception is a pathfinder list that turns up. But I'm looking for something a little more extensive than PF core; something that includes 3.5 as well.

Thanks folks!

[MisterKaws]

There's just too many builds to account for. I think it's pretty much impossible to list every single class/feat/template combination.

[Ken Murikumo]

Well, how about the more common ones, like twf and weapon finesse? Taxes that fall into that kind of vein.

[MisterKaws]

Not as far as I know. Most specialized build guides do have their specific feat taxes listed, so most people just look for those.

[Coidzor]

You can look for commonalities between various attempts at rebalancing 3.5 dating back to Frank and K coming up with the idea of making feats like Power Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting scale with BAB, I suppose, but as far as I know, no one has made a guide to common feat tax fixes or anything like that.

The minmax boards Handbook index might yield some resources of interest.

If you want to try, go for it. I'll start out with two jazz standards. Combining Precise Shot with Point Blank Shot or eliminating Point Blank Shot as a feat prerequisite, especially for Precise Shot. Then for the other making Two-Weapon Fighting automatically give an additional attack with the offhand weapon at each iterative attack instead of requiring multiple feats to get more than one offhand attack.

[Psyren]

Here's one our group is fond of. (http://theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/)

[Sayt]

The first thing that comes to mind is: "Nothing requires weapon focus."

[weckar]

Just to be clear (because I'm not); are you looking for homebrew fixes to feat taxes, or ways to circumvent/migitate feat taxes within RAW?

[Ken Murikumo]

Here's one our group is fond of. (http://theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/)

That was the PF one i mentioned. Shows up when googling "3.5 feat tax"


Just to be clear (because I'm not); are you looking for homebrew fixes to feat taxes, or ways to circumvent/migitate feat taxes within RAW?

More-so homebrew. I'm not looking for early entry cheese or anything like that. Just ideas on culling feats that are a complete waste. The PF guide that Psyren posted is exactly the type of thing im looking for.



If you want to try, go for it. I'll start out with two jazz standards. Combining Precise Shot with Point Blank Shot or eliminating Point Blank Shot as a feat prerequisite, especially for Precise Shot. Then for the other making Two-Weapon Fighting automatically give an additional attack with the offhand weapon at each iterative attack instead of requiring multiple feats to get more than one offhand attack.

Well, then lets kick this pig!

[OldTrees1]

Here is my feat tax fix:
Everytime you get a feat, if it is not worth a feat slot you can get another feat to a maximum of 5 feats(4 blegh & 1 worthy or 5 blegh).

[Ortesk]

Off the top of my head? Whirlwind attack and everything to get it is utter garbage (except combat expertise for trip), which any good tripper dips barb for some sweet totem action but I digress.

The weapon focus line is a waste, except the top end stuff in PHBII. I like those ones (weapon mastery mainly)

If you eliminated just dodge, a whole slew of things will become open for you

[Ortesk]

Here is my feat tax fix:
Everytime you get a feat, if it is not worth a feat slot you can get another feat to a maximum of 5 feats(4 blegh & 1 worthy or 5 blegh).

I would do this, but the sneaky gremlins like to do the chaos shuffle

[CharonsHelper]

Off the top of my head? Whirlwind attack and everything to get it is utter garbage (except combat expertise for trip), which any good tripper dips barb for some sweet totem action but I digress.

The weapon focus line is a waste, except the top end stuff in PHBII. I like those ones (weapon mastery mainly)

I don't know made you think that - but both of those are untrue.

The weapon focus line is awesome. Weapon Focus is a feat that my combatants take very consistently, and is well worth it. Now - are Weapon Spec/Greater Weapon Focus worth staying a fighter for that long? Probably not, but if you have access you should definitely snag them.

Whirlwind Attack itself is pretty awesome, especially for a reach build, and it would be stupidly OP to cost only a single feat. Admittedly, 3.5 Dodge kinda sucks (Pathfinder's is okay), Mobility is itself mostly good for niche builds, and Spring Attack is also for niche builds (and not the same builds which take full advantage of Whirlwind Attack). However, none of that keeps Whirlwind Attack from being way too good to only cost a single feat slot.

[OldTrees1]

I would do this, but the sneaky gremlins like to do the chaos shuffle

So don't allow the shuffle? :smallconfused: When one implements a more elegant patch, you can remove extremely cheesy clumsy redundant patches.

[Ortesk]

I don't know made you think that - but both of those are untrue.

The weapon focus line is awesome. Weapon Focus is a feat that my combatants take very consistently, and is well worth it. Now - are Weapon Spec/Greater Weapon Focus worth staying a fighter for that long? Probably not, but if you have access you should definitely snag them.

Whirlwind Attack itself is pretty awesome, especially for a reach build, and it would be stupidly OP to cost only a single feat. Admittedly, 3.5 Dodge kinda sucks (Pathfinder's is okay), Mobility is itself mostly good for niche builds, and Spring Attack is also for niche builds (and not the same builds which take full advantage of Whirlwind Attack). However, none of that keeps Whirlwind Attack from being way too good to only cost a single feat slot.

Weapon focus would be good if it naturally progressed, but +1 attack for a feat is not very good. Maybe roll it and weapon spec into the same bundle at level 2, then level 10 for the improved? +2 attack/4 damage would be worth two feats to a fighter, not sold on 4 though.

And I can see the use of whirlwind attack in select builds/uses, but I think all the pre-req feats make it garbage. Again, grouping them together might be nice. Like Mobility/Side step rolled into one, using the BAB/Dex requirement of side step?

Maybe I'm not seeing something, but Spring attack strikes me as subpar with travel devotion or pounce (unless we are in core only, then it mildly goes up in value)

[CharonsHelper]

Weapon focus would be good if it naturally progressed, but +1 attack for a feat is not very good. Maybe roll it and weapon spec into the same bundle at level 2, then level 10 for the improved? +2 attack/4 damage would be worth two feats to a fighter, not sold on 4 though.

No. The math doesn't work that way. +1 to attack is just as valuable at level 16 as it is at level 1. If anything it becomes more valuable due to its increased effect upon iterative attacks. (Though Weapon Spec becomes less valuable as 2 damage because less of the damage %.)

Do you also think that Weapon Focus only increases DPR by 5%? >.<


Maybe I'm not seeing something, but Spring attack strikes me as subpar with travel devotion or pounce (unless we are in core only, then it mildly goes up in value)

It's not great for every build, but it's pretty awesome for niche builds. Ex: A tripper with Greater Trip can run past, trip you, hit you, and retreat out of range so that you have no chance to engage them. No Aoos, and it'll take a move action to stand up, not leaving enough to charge. Or just use it after you have fatigued them somehow. Not to mention in 3.5 the infamous Spiked Chain build of AOO death. -

Spiked Chain Spring Attack Blender: Attack with Spring Attack and when they charge you get 1 normal AOO & combine it with Hold the Line - both with Greater Combat Reflexes can give you 6 AOOs against that charge. It's kinda gross. (Admittedly Greater Combat Reflexes was a Dragon Magazine feat and is OP. Without it you still get 3 attacks to their 1 attack every turn.)

[OldTrees1]

No. The math doesn't work that way. +1 to attack is just as valuable at level 16 as it is at level 1. If anything it becomes more valuable due to its increased effect upon iterative attacks. (Though Weapon Spec becomes less valuable as 2 damage because less of the damage %.)

Do you also think that Weapon Focus only increases DPR by 5%? >.<

If the curve "Attack(Level)" increases faster than the curve "Target AC(Level)" then a +1 might be worth different at different levels. While a +1 might have been an increase of 50% hit rate to 55% hit rate (10% increase in damage) it might eventually be an increase of 80% to 85% (6.25%) or even 95% to 95% (0% increase in damage).

[CharonsHelper]

If the curve "Attack(Level)" increases faster than the curve "Target AC(Level)" then a +1 might be worth different at different levels. While a +1 might have been an increase of 50% hit rate to 55% hit rate (10% increase in damage) it might eventually be an increase of 80% to 85% (6.25%) or even 95% to 95% (0% increase in damage).

Other than against Oozes and the like, it's rare to hit on a 2+ with iterative attacks. And if you do, it's time to jack up the Power Attack, Weapon Focus allowing you to jack it up 1 point further and retain 95% accuracy. (in 3.5 when you could vary PA's strength per turn)

[OldTrees1]

Other than against Oozes and the like, it's rare to hit on a 2+ with iterative attacks. And if you do, it's time to jack up the Power Attack, Weapon Focus allowing you to jack it up 1 point further and retain 95% accuracy. (in 3.5 when you could vary PA's strength per turn)

If you hit with a 2+ on your primary attack then the +1 attack will not help your primary attack (you already knew this).

From my own experience playing 3.5, attack scaled faster than AC to the point that the -5 iteratives were at 2+ if you bothered spending character resources on +# assets. So weapon focus, as one of the weaker +# assets one would consider, would only help the -10 iterative attack. 2*95%+70%->2*95%+75% is roughly a 2% increase in damage.

Of course in my own experience playing 3.5, chasing bigger numbers was boring relative to chasing qualitative improvements. So even if you consider weapon focus to be nice, I would personally consider it not worth a feat slot (and thus be one of the 4 free blegh feats per feat slot I offer).

[Telok]

I did something like this in my game. There are two 'levels' of trash feats in my mind. First is the really actually useless stuff like the +2/+2 skill feats and toughness. Other feats that people commonly completely forget about or won't use because it's boring or fiddly are here too, point blank shot, dodge, cooperative spellcasting, skill focus, and other piddling little things like those. I just made all of these not prereqs for anything. Worked out just fine, rogues didn't have to wait untill 12th level to get crossbow sniper.

Then I turned around and made a bunch of stuff stack. Weapon focus, improved toughness, iron will, stuff that was still pretty piddling bonuses but could add up to something decent if you invested. If someone wanted to spend five feats on weapon focus in order to be awesome with a sword or on improved toughness to be Mr. Hit Points I'm cool with that. Still no problems.

I came to the conclusion that most feats that give numerical bonuses, especially small ones, are far less disruptive or dangerous that the ones that give characters a new trick. So I stopped caring if they stacked and it turned out to not make a difference.

[Telonius]

The "feat taxes" that really drive me nuts aren't really along the lines of, "Take this annoying prereq that you otherwise wouldn't have taken, so you can get a really powerful ability in a Prestige Class." They're more like, "Your pretty reasonable character concept will not work unless you take this feat." Rogue, in particular, gets really hosed for things like that, but every martial class I can think of gets hit with them much more often than casters. (I do away with the Natural Spell feat tax by using the PHB2 druid variant).

One homebrew fix for Weapon Finesse I've heard of but haven't tried out: doing away with the feat entirely, and making "Finesse-able" a property of the weapon. Anybody can choose to use Dex instead of Str for the weapons in question.

I've considered adding Craven bonuses to the Sneak Attack class feature, and giving Paladins the Battle Blessing feat as a bonus at some point.

I use this one for my games: TWF and Rapid Shot give you additional attacks with each iterative. Improved etc. lessen the penalties for doing so by one each (so Rangers get something out of weapon style).

I also have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization scale with level. Weapon Focus grants a bonus equal to Fighter Level/5 (minimum 1). Anybody can take the feat as-is, but it's more powerful when taken by the intended class (and gives Fighters some kind of reason to stay in the class past 4). Greater Weapon Focus doubles the bonus. Weapon Specialization grants a bonus equal to 2*(Fighter Level/5). Greater Weapon Specialization doubles the bonus.

[VisitingDaGulag]

I found one (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=16590). You can reply over there, too. That boards is more tolerant so thread necro'ing is okay.