Dreamscarred Press Announces - Bloodforge Infusions Open Beta

[Lord_Gareth]

You may be thinking to yourself, "Why does DSP run so many playtests at once?" And I would answer you, "I can feel the power of madness overtaking me! AHAHAHAHA!"

In any event, welcome to the open beta for Bloodforge Infusions!

You may or may not remember Bloodforge, our book of hybrids & racial heritage. Bloodforge Infusions expands on the concepts and themes introduced in Bloodforge and introduces new races, new archetypes, racial variants, feats, and more.

You can find the playtest document here! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GvwMclLSw15slYI7D5xLdjMzr-Nau92hNha9Sx0LOk4/edit?usp=sharing)

Right now you'll find the following six new races:

Alafia—desert-dwelling superstitious viper folk with an Akashic connection
Atstreidi—a unique type of slime mold that grows sapience when it comes into contact with the psychic imprint left behind by a well-used suit of armor
Coreid—A psionic core that thinks its a real boy, building a body out of particulate matter from its surroundings.
Eiremian—Serene, detached planetouched with an affinity for negative energy.
Entoli—The entrancing offspring of maenads and sirens.
Ethumion—Supernaturally energetic descendents of ravids (somehow) and humans.

You'll also find variants for the sobek and suqur races from Akashic Mysteries, three new variant kitsune (and a universal alternate racial trait for them!), three new tiefling heritages, seven alternate tengu, a new rogue archetype, a psionic counterpart to Sanguine Sorcery & Spark of Divinity, a new psionic power, and the fevered ramblings of designers pushed beyond the cliffs of sanity.

As always, we look forward to your feedback!

Ready?

Go!

[Omoikane13]

You made a Dungeon Meshi Living Armor? Good lord, this is why Dreamscarred is probably my favourite publisher.

EDIT: Just one thing to query from my first look-over:


Fighter: Increase the fighter’s reach when fighting with a weapon from one of their weapon groups by 1 foot per 4 levels (granting a 10-foot reach at 20th level).

Should this be 2ft per 4 levels, or a 5ft reach at 20th level?

[Thealtruistorc]

Now, I wasn't a fan of the first Bloodforge, but this one seems to be loaded with potential so far. The new psionic and planar races both seem like perfect additions to the mythos, and just looking at them opens up a lot of ideas for characters and societies (exactly what races are supposed to do, in my opinion). Simple, yet elegantly crafted.


Also, I'm incredibly happy that you are breathing new life into some of the old and underutilized races. The Kitsune and Tengu work both seem amazing so far (Cassowary Tengu is a brilliant concept), and I hope to see more attempts at rebirthing some old races (Merfolk, Orcs, and Grippli come readily to mind).

Now if you'll excuse me, I have salamanderfolk akashic fighter in need of a few epics.

[digiman619]

The Coried favored class option reads
Soulknife: Add +1/3 to the effective level to the soulknife’s level for their enhanced mind blade ability. Does this have a limit, or does a level 12 Coreid Soulknife have a +7 enhancement bonus, as opposed to every else's +5? And what happens when they hit Soulknife 16, when the effective +5 puts it past the chart?

[Extra Anchovies]

Alafia

Oracle FCB is a bit strong, like all the other full-caster +1 spell FCBs. One spell per 2 levels would be better, unless you're set on holding to Paizo's precedent.

Swashbuckler FCB is very interesting. My gut says it's a touch weak, maybe +1/5 per level?

Warder FCB is probably meant to say "reach", unless you really mean for them to be able to shoot fangs at people :smalltongue:


Atstreidi (Living Armor)

This is... interesting. Not the fluff I was expecting when I saw the name. Cool concept though.

Stalker FCB - feat-equivalents should be +1/6 per level, without exception.
Wizard FCB - same concerns as Alafia Oracle

Psychic Speech is really vague about how it works. Specifically:
-what's its range, if any?
-can it be used to communicate with deaf or mindless creatures?
-can it be restricted to certain recipients, and can others try to listen in as if it were normal speech?

A few other questions:
1. Can assimilated gauntlets be used as weapons after they're assimilated?
1a. If yes to (1), can an Atstreidi with assimilated gauntlets make unarmed strikes with their hands?
1b. If yes to (1a), is there an action necessary to switch between wielding the gauntlets and being unarmed?
2. If an Atstreidi transfers from magic armor to nonmagic, nonmasterwork armor and takes the enhancement bonus with it, does the new armor become or count as masterwork? Does it remain masterwork if the Atstreidi leaves it for a third suit of armor?
3. Does the slam attack occupy any hands, or could an Atstreidi with two claw attacks use all three natural weapons at once? There might be a general rule on this but if so I don't know it.


Coreid

The fluff mentions them being able to store magic items inside their body. Does this provide the items with any sort of mechanical benefit, or is it entirely fluff? The ability to make your items hidden and untargetable would be quite powerful.

Can they add new materials to and remove old materials from their body? If so, how does this interact with and/or involve the Disguise skill?

When they're discorporated, can the core be picked up and moved around? What happens if it's removed from its remains and put in an area lacking viable body materials?

In addition, a coreid loses cohesion when they reach 0 hit points, their form dissembling into a pile. When discorporated thus, they reconstitute in one day so long as their core isn’t destroyed (it has 1 hit point per character level and hardness 10, cannot be targeted unless the coreid is discorporated). They return to corporeal form, regaining all their hit points, and can be resurrected normally so long as the spell is cast with the core as the remains of the coreid.
This is rather confusing, in a lot of ways. Suggested rewording:

A coreid reduced to 0 hit points or less loses cohesion, its particulate body falling away from its inactive core. The core is a fist-sized object with hardness 10 and 1 hit point per character level of the coreid it came from, and it cannot be targeted, damaged, or otherwise affected while the coreid is active; effects directed at the core instead target or affect the coreid, if possible. If the inactive core is destroyed, the coreid dies. Coreids cannot be raised, but they can be resurrected if the caster of the spell has a part of the destroyed core; coreids cannot be reincarnated. While the coreid is inactive, they are neither dead nor alive, but they are unable to think or act and count as dead for effects that would bring them back. If an inactive core spends 24 hours in an environment with enough particulate matter to form a new body, the core reactivates, restoring the coreid's full hit points and assembling a body from nearby materials.

Also, I'm pretty sure there's at least one spell or effect somewhere that knocks a creature to 0 HP on a failed save or some such; you may want to shift their disassembly point to -1 or less.

As much as I love that Kineticist FCB, I think it's a bit much for a favored class bonus. Even ticked down to +1/4 it would still be pretty darn good. If you want to make burn easier on kineticists, implement it in a way that works with every race.


Eiremian

Kineticist FCB - same as Coreid.

Guru FCB is pretty neat.


Entoli

Marksman FCB: feat-equivalents should be +1/6 per level, without exception.


Ethumion

Contagious Enthusiasm is very strong. Free-action retrieval of anything on your person, anywhere? Alchemists love this one weird trick to drink two extracts per round! No me gusta.

Helping hand is... well, it's something. "Any purposes that require a free hand" includes casting spells (THF Magus, because that class needs more damage), holding extracts (THF Alchemist, because that class needs more damage too), Lance-TWF (because mounted chargers need more damage), and so on. And also it can't be bound or hindered, which means casters can just say "no" to grapples, paralysis, etc. Gaseous Form doesn't have a verbal component, so a Helping Hand Ethumion can never be prevented from casting it and escaping from whatever trouble they're in. Invisible magic hands may be cool but this is not a good way to implement them.

Daevic FCB is overpowered; +1/4 essence is strong as heck even before taking into account the essence efficiency of passion veils.

Kineticist FCB is overpowered, same as Coreid and Eiremian.

Fighter FCB is interesting. I like it.


Tengu

Bearded Vulture is nasty strong, especially with Fate's Favored. They'd need to give up a lot more than some small Stealth, Perception, and Linguistics bonuses to get +2 to saves and +3 to AC.

Ostrich's 1.5*Str (and -1/+3 power attack scaling) to unarmed strikes is waaay more valuable than the +4 Linguistics and handful of proficiencies that it replaces. I recommend scaling it down to counting as two-handed for feats and abilities, but not for damage (i.e. -1/+3 power attack, but 1*Str).


Deceiver

Ooh, I like this archetype. Good to see social rogues getting more support.

The uRogue's Major Magic talent provides 1 use per day per 2 levels, which is twice as many as Mental Infiltrator or Uncanny Image.


Feats

The Psionic Awakening chain is so cool. Seems to me like it's in a great place balance-wise, too.

[Milo v3]

If only ravids actually existed in PF.... note, this would be a perfect time to put in a PF conversion of Ravids.

Edit: What's a Zurami?

[Lord_Gareth]

If only ravids actually existed in PF.... note, this would be a perfect time to put in a PF conversion of Ravids.

We're going to, I just gotta actually update the things.


Edit: What's a Zurami?

Psionic Bestiary; zurami are psionic demons that form their bodies from layers of evil sound. They divide people against each other, sow discord through deception and sensory deprivation, move as living sound waves, and cause madness and terror wherever they go. Zurami delight in plunging ordered societies into chaos and violence.

[Sayt]

Living Armor made me think of Alphonse Elric at first, but as I thought a bit more or acyually feels a lot more like Mass Effect's Geth.

Kakapo tengu is nice (NZ represent!). But it also makes me want mischevious, wrecking Kea tengu.

[MilleniaAntares]

I like these all!

How does the called shot system interact with the Astreidi and the Coreid?

Coreid are pretty neat, though I wonder if you guys have thought about making a biological version of it? Could work as a more traditional sort of slime creature...

Shouldn't Coreid also have the shapeshifter subtype? In a sense its shape is modified just by creating the body.

What's the Vital Core's AC mods? In terms of size, I suppose, since I doubt the core is big enough to be a "medium" object.

[khadgar567]

small question can astreidi become archforge mech armor( lets say some one droped their power armor near the colony and colony found the armor) plus can astreidi choose to be weared by someone else they trust

[Swaoeaeieu]

Living Armor made me think of Alphonse Elric at first,

Elric, or Bastion from overwatch. Little curious piece of metal. Adorable!

[Mehangel]

small question ... can astreidi choose to be weared by someone else they trust

I am also curious about this. In a campaign I am currently participating in, a player has a character who is in-fact a suit of armor and is worn by another NPC (NPC is effectively a vegetable and kept alive by the suit and granting only 2 things, a face, and the NPC's title of Captain). The character in question can move on his own without the NPC, but decides to keep the NPC anyways. I have already sent the player the states of the race so to perhaps switch over, but it would be nice how a Non-vegetable NPC/PC would behave inside of an Astreidi such as what actions both can take while combined, or how damage is distributed when attacked.

[PsyBomb]

small question can astreidi become archforge mech armor( lets say some one droped their power armor near the colony and colony found the armor) plus can astreidi choose to be weared by someone else they trust

Power armor isn't something we though of yet, so no answer there. As for being worn, sorry, but no. Fluff-wise, it's full of jagged metallic fungi that serve similar purpose to muscles. Mechanically, it is its own creature.

[Mehangel]

As for being worn, sorry, but no. Fluff-wise, it's full of jagged metallic fungi that serve similar purpose to muscles. Mechanically, it is its own creature.

Will that be strictly stated with the race, and if so any chance on including an alternate racial trait worded similiarly to the Aegis Customization such as:

Extra Passenger
The atstreidi is exceptionally hollow and adept at shifting its armored shell to accommodate another. Atstreidi can carry one creature of the same size or smaller as the atstreidi’s base size (powers and effects that increase the atstreidi's size do not allow him to carry larger creatures). The carried creature is treated as if it has total concealment and he gains damage reduction/- equal to 1/2 the armor bonus of Armor Shell. The creature carried using this ability remains adjacent to the atstreidi and moves with the atstreidi’s move actions. A creature can be loaded and unloaded into the Armor Shell as a free action by the atstreidi, but the creature can take no actions until its next turn. This racial trait replaces naturally psionic and psionic aptitude.

[Lord_Gareth]

You made a Dungeon Meshi Living Armor? Good lord, this is why Dreamscarred is probably my favourite publisher.

EDIT: Just one thing to query from my first look-over:



Should this be 2ft per 4 levels, or a 5ft reach at 20th level?

Zis is being addressed.


The Coried favored class option reads Does this have a limit, or does a level 12 Coreid Soulknife have a +7 enhancement bonus, as opposed to every else's +5? And what happens when they hit Soulknife 16, when the effective +5 puts it past the chart?

Pass'd to internal, expect an update Shortly(tm).


Oracle FCB is a bit strong, like all the other full-caster +1 spell FCBs. One spell per 2 levels would be better, unless you're set on holding to Paizo's precedent.

I want you to remember this sentence here for later.


Swashbuckler FCB is very interesting. My gut says it's a touch weak, maybe +1/5 per level?

This one's on debate but we'll get it figured out.


Warder FCB is probably meant to say "reach", unless you really mean for them to be able to shoot fangs at people :smalltongue:

Likely.


This is... interesting. Not the fluff I was expecting when I saw the name. Cool concept though.

We try.


Stalker FCB - feat-equivalents should be +1/6 per level, without exception.

Remember when I said to remember that sentence for later?

No. There's no actual standard; evaluate it for balance, not precedent.


Wizard FCB - same concerns as Alafia Oracle

This and previous is one of those cases where the precedent is so warping that we can either do the thing or watch the race never get played as that class. We did the thing.


Psychic Speech is really vague about how it works. Specifically:
-what's its range, if any?
-can it be used to communicate with deaf or mindless creatures?
-can it be restricted to certain recipients, and can others try to listen in as if it were normal speech?

A few other questions:
1. Can assimilated gauntlets be used as weapons after they're assimilated?
1a. If yes to (1), can an Atstreidi with assimilated gauntlets make unarmed strikes with their hands?
1b. If yes to (1a), is there an action necessary to switch between wielding the gauntlets and being unarmed?
2. If an Atstreidi transfers from magic armor to nonmagic, nonmasterwork armor and takes the enhancement bonus with it, does the new armor become or count as masterwork? Does it remain masterwork if the Atstreidi leaves it for a third suit of armor?
3. Does the slam attack occupy any hands, or could an Atstreidi with two claw attacks use all three natural weapons at once? There might be a general rule on this but if so I don't know it.


The fluff mentions them being able to store magic items inside their body. Does this provide the items with any sort of mechanical benefit, or is it entirely fluff? The ability to make your items hidden and untargetable would be quite powerful.

Pass'd to internal.


Can they add new materials to and remove old materials from their body? If so, how does this interact with and/or involve the Disguise skill?

When they're discorporated, can the core be picked up and moved around? What happens if it's removed from its remains and put in an area lacking viable body materials?

This is rather confusing, in a lot of ways. Suggested rewording:

A coreid reduced to 0 hit points or less loses cohesion, its particulate body falling away from its inactive core. The core is a fist-sized object with hardness 10 and 1 hit point per character level of the coreid it came from, and it cannot be targeted, damaged, or otherwise affected while the coreid is active; effects directed at the core instead target or affect the coreid, if possible. If the inactive core is destroyed, the coreid dies. Coreids cannot be raised, but they can be resurrected if the caster of the spell has a part of the destroyed core; coreids cannot be reincarnated. While the coreid is inactive, they are neither dead nor alive, but they are unable to think or act and count as dead for effects that would bring them back. If an inactive core spends 24 hours in an environment with enough particulate matter to form a new body, the core reactivates, restoring the coreid's full hit points and assembling a body from nearby materials.

Also, I'm pretty sure there's at least one spell or effect somewhere that knocks a creature to 0 HP on a failed save or some such; you may want to shift their disassembly point to -1 or less.

Pass'd to internal. As far as Disguise goes, I'd venture so far as to suggest that's what ranks in the skill probably represent.


As much as I love that Kineticist FCB, I think it's a bit much for a favored class bonus. Even ticked down to +1/4 it would still be pretty darn good. If you want to make burn easier on kineticists, implement it in a way that works with every race.

Kineticist FCB - same as Coreid.

How about no? Again, evaluate for balance, not what should've been done with kineticist in the first place.


Marksman FCB: feat-equivalents should be +1/6 per level, without exception.

See previous.


Contagious Enthusiasm is very strong. Free-action retrieval of anything on your person, anywhere? Alchemists love this one weird trick to drink two extracts per round! No me gusta.

You're telling me that:

1. 3.5 Quick Draw was too strong
2. This somehow lets them quick draw extracts, the things that explicitly can never ever be quick drawn, never, no, not even then?


Helping hand is... well, it's something. "Any purposes that require a free hand" includes casting spells (THF Magus, because that class needs more damage), holding extracts (THF Alchemist, because that class needs more damage too), Lance-TWF (because mounted chargers need more damage), and so on. And also it can't be bound or hindered, which means casters can just say "no" to grapples, paralysis, etc. Gaseous Form doesn't have a verbal component, so a Helping Hand Ethumion can never be prevented from casting it and escaping from whatever trouble they're in. Invisible magic hands may be cool but this is not a good way to implement them.

Forrest has edited this so that it doesn't work if you're helpless etc. Other than that, getting a new hand is not difficult in PF. Notably, alchemists can ALREADY get a new hand.


Daevic FCB is overpowered; +1/4 essence is strong as heck even before taking into account the essence efficiency of passion veils.

This is the precedent already set for those FCBs in AkMyst, buddy.


Kineticist FCB is overpowered, same as Coreid and Eiremian.

See previous.


Bearded Vulture is nasty strong, especially with Fate's Favored. They'd need to give up a lot more than some small Stealth, Perception, and Linguistics bonuses to get +2 to saves and +3 to AC.

Has been swapped to a racial bonus.


Ostrich's 1.5*Str (and -1/+3 power attack scaling) to unarmed strikes is waaay more valuable than the +4 Linguistics and handful of proficiencies that it replaces. I recommend scaling it down to counting as two-handed for feats and abilities, but not for damage (i.e. -1/+3 power attack, but 1*Str).

Community A: Just make it two-handed
Community B: Nerf it back down!

Y'all people I swear. Our eye is on this one as things progress. Would be great to see hard numbers.


Ooh, I like this archetype. Good to see social rogues getting more support.

The uRogue's Major Magic talent provides 1 use per day per 2 levels, which is twice as many as Mental Infiltrator or Uncanny Image.

I have no idea where you're going with this statement but pass'd to internal.


The Psionic Awakening chain is so cool. Seems to me like it's in a great place balance-wise, too.

Community A: Too weak!
Community B: Perfect!

Our eye is on this one too.


I like these all!

How does the called shot system interact with the Astreidi and the Coreid?

By making me drink heavily and try to forget it exists again. Pass'd to internal, but we may not end up, like...caring.


Coreid are pretty neat, though I wonder if you guys have thought about making a biological version of it? Could work as a more traditional sort of slime creature...

Would be a bit rough, design-wise.


Shouldn't Coreid also have the shapeshifter subtype? In a sense its shape is modified just by creating the body.

Shapeshifter comes with some mechanical implications we don't want or need in this case.


What's the Vital Core's AC mods? In terms of size, I suppose, since I doubt the core is big enough to be a "medium" object.

Pass'd to internal.


small question can astreidi become archforge mech armor( lets say some one droped their power armor near the colony and colony found the armor) plus can astreidi choose to be weared by someone else they trust

Arcforge is being published by someone else these days; its content is no longer our concern. Chances are it wouldn't be compatible for various reasons but that's honestly not something I want to (or, actually, even can) speak definitively on any more.

[Ssalarn]

This is the precedent already set for those FCBs in AkMyst, buddy.



Actually, FCBs in Akashic Mysteries that grant bonus essence are universally +1/5, not +1/4. It also seems like most of the other new BF:I races use the +1/5 progression, so it seems possible that the Ethumion FCB is a typo or error.

[Lord_Gareth]

Actually, FCBs in Akashic Mysteries that grant bonus essence are universally +1/5, not +1/4. It also seems like most of the other new BF:I races use the +1/5 progression, so it seems possible that the Ethumion FCB is a typo or error.

Huh. My bad; pass'd to internal.

[Extra Anchovies]

There's no actual standard; evaluate it for balance, not precedent.

Evaluating for balance requires comparison to existing options. Rogue, Alchemist, Magus, Witch, Ninja, Arcanist, Shaman, Slayer, Warpriest, Kineticist, Occultist, Cryptic (DSP), and Dread (DSP) all have +1/6 [feat-equivalent] as a FCB for one or more races, and those races are strong choices because of their FCBs. I think that's sufficient weight of evidence to default to +1/6 for feat-equivalents. I'll admit that "without exception" is a bit too absolute, though.

Opening up PoW:E, +1/4 does match some of the already-printed Stalker FCBs, so I guess sticking with that is justified in the larger context of other Stalker material. :smallsigh:


How about no? Again, evaluate for balance, not what should've been done with kineticist in the first place.

Yeah, evaluate for balance. Compare to existing options. "Ignore half of your burn" is leagues better than any of the other Kineticist FCBs, and it's quite a bit stronger than FCBs really should be. Cribbing the Halfling's +1/6 to internal reservoir would be good, or cutting the scaling to +1/4 if you're dead set on burn HP loss reduction.

A definite issue with the "reduce burn by half" FCB is Aether's Force Ward. Burn takes you down (1/2 level) HP, Force Ward grants (1/2 level) regenerating temporary HP per point of burn; a telekineticist with the FCB can feed burn into Force Ward with no effective HP loss.


You're telling me that:

1. 3.5 Quick Draw was too strong

I'm not sure where you're getting this from - all three sources I have available (srd, print copy, ebook) for the 3.5 core rules have a Quick Draw that explicitly only works with weapons.


2. This somehow lets them quick draw extracts, the things that explicitly can never ever be quick drawn, never, no, not even then?

The only relevant (Pathfinder) text I'm finding is this:

Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Which, being part of Quick Draw's text, is overridden by Contagious Enthusiasm's alterations to Quick Draw.

Is there some other piece of rules text somewhere that you're referring to?


Forrest has edited this so that it doesn't work if you're helpless etc.

Good to hear. It's still pretty strong - greatsword + unarmed strike TWF, THF Magus, etc - but I don't see it causing major problems.


Other than that, getting a new hand is not difficult in PF. Notably, alchemists can ALREADY get a new hand.

I'm of the opinion that Vestigial Arm and (at least as it is now) Helping Hand provide extra limbs with too little investment - compare to the Aegis, which can get a weaker-than-normal extra arm at 5th level with 3 customization points, or two fully-functional extra arms at 8th level with 6 points. Some sort of scaling (á la the 3.5 Dragonborn aspects) into a normally usable hand by 5th level or so might work well.

[Lord_Gareth]

Evaluating for balance requires comparison to existing options. Rogue, Alchemist, Magus, Witch, Ninja, Arcanist, Shaman, Slayer, Warpriest, Kineticist, Occultist, Cryptic (DSP), and Dread (DSP) all have +1/6 [feat-equivalent] as a FCB for one or more races, and those races are strong choices because of their FCBs. I think that's sufficient weight of evidence to default to +1/6 for feat-equivalents. I'll admit that "without exception" is a bit too absolute, though.

Opening up PoW:E, +1/4 does match some of the already-printed Stalker FCBs, so I guess sticking with that is justified in the larger context of other Stalker material. :smallsigh:

Run some numbers and get back to us.


Yeah, evaluate for balance. Compare to existing options. "Ignore half of your burn" is leagues better than any of the other Kineticist FCBs, and it's quite a bit stronger than FCBs really should be. Cribbing the Halfling's +1/6 to internal reservoir would be good, or cutting the scaling to +1/4 if you're dead set on burn HP loss reduction.

A definite issue with the "reduce burn by half" FCB is Aether's Force Ward. Burn takes you down (1/2 level) HP, Force Ward grants (1/2 level) regenerating temporary HP per point of burn; a telekineticist with the FCB can feed burn into Force Ward with no effective HP loss.

Temp HP very much is not normal HP. It's a nice cushion but it won't save you in the long-term. Kineticist is a class sorely in need of some affection.


I'm not sure where you're getting this from - all three sources I have available (srd, print copy, ebook) for the 3.5 core rules have a Quick Draw that explicitly only works with weapons.

The only relevant (Pathfinder) text I'm finding is this:

Which, being part of Quick Draw's text, is overridden by Contagious Enthusiasm's alterations to Quick Draw.

Is there some other piece of rules text somewhere that you're referring to?

The FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qv2)

Notably including:


Alchemist: Does the Accelerated Drinker feat from Cheliax, Empire of Devils allow a character to drink an alchemist extract as a move action?

No.

And


Alchemist: What kind of action is it to use an extract, mutagen, or throw a bomb?

It is a standard action to use an extract, mutagen, or throw a bomb. This action includes retrieving the necessary materials from the alchemist's supplies, in the same manner as retrieving a material component is included in the act of spellcasting.

Extracts are not items. They are spells. They cannot be quick drawn. No, not even then.


Good to hear. It's still pretty strong - greatsword + unarmed strike TWF, THF Magus, etc - but I don't see it causing major problems.

Certainly didn't back in the 3.5 days.


I'm of the opinion that Vestigial Arm and (at least as it is now) Helping Hand provide extra limbs with too little investment - compare to the Aegis, which can get a weaker-than-normal extra arm at 5th level with 3 customization points, or two fully-functional extra arms at 8th level with 6 points. Some sort of scaling (á la the 3.5 Dragonborn aspects) into a normally usable hand by 5th level or so might work well.

I'ma have to respectfully disagree with this opinion. The existing options haven't caused a fuss.

[inuyasha]

I don't want to sound rude, as this may be mildly unrelated, but I am a huge fan of Bastards & Bloodlines, which is what I'm assuming the Bloodforge book is based off of, and considering it's Dreamscarred Press that updated it to Pathfinder, I'm definitely intrigued and impressed.

Is there a way to get a print copy of Bloodforge, or is it PDF only?

[Lord_Gareth]

I don't want to sound rude, as this may be mildly unrelated, but I am a huge fan of Bastards & Bloodlines, which is what I'm assuming the Bloodforge book is based off of, and considering it's Dreamscarred Press that updated it to Pathfinder, I'm definitely intrigued and impressed.

Is there a way to get a print copy of Bloodforge, or is it PDF only?

Nnnoooot yet. We're working on it but the files got corrupted and, well...

[inuyasha]

Nnnoooot yet. We're working on it but the files got corrupted and, well...

Oh, dang! That's never fun.

[MilleniaAntares]

small question can astreidi become archforge mech armor( lets say some one droped their power armor near the colony and colony found the armor) plus can astreidi choose to be weared by someone else they trust
Arcforged mechs are constructs by default, and their habitation of armor prevents any compatibility with mechs... The Cybernetic Integration feat doesn't exactly make your mech into armor, as it's still called out as a "creature", and isn't designated as light/medium/heavy armor. However, your GMs may allow such a thing, but that is probably not going to be allowed by RAW.

[Shackel]

Are there any plans on making feats or racial traits for the Coreid focusing on the psicrystal? It seems like a really neat idea to have, say, the core itself become a psicrystal for additional effects. Perhaps a feat for later levels (Imp. Psicyrstal + Level 11 or more maybe?) that takes it further and allows the core psicrystal to move outside of the body, becoming a sort of pseudo-phylactery at the risk of it being found and destroyed.

As a note, the Coreid FCB for Psion might be a little too powerful. Throw in an orange ioun stone along with that trait that gives you +1 manifester level to a power and at level 12 we're talking 9th level astral constructs.

[MilleniaAntares]

For the Coreid... I think it would be neat if they had a 25% chance of avoiding death if they were reduced to negative con mod while having their form up. If that's too strong, perhaps as a feat?

Can you get both Peacock Composition and Metallic Form? Seems like they'd stack, but I want to make sure... and if they do, does that mean their recovery time will be 4 days, or 6?

How does Vital Core interact with Die Hard? And if someone heals the core, does that mean the coreid can pop up immediately, or are they stuck until they reincorporate?

Coreid Psion FCB has "manifeter" instead of manifester.

A lot of the alternate racial traits in general seem like something that could be desired with a feat, so perhaps adding in that option for whatever makes sense would be good.

[Lord Raziere]

oooh cool, the Coreid's make me think of the Gem's from Steven Universe. Because that is what they basically are.

while the Eiremians remind me of my own experiences in life. I just love them and can relate to them so much...

[Extra Anchovies]

Temp HP very much is not normal HP. It's a nice cushion but it won't save you in the long-term.

The only case in which temporary HP and normal HP differ is that temp HP can't be restored by healing, and Force Ward temp HP come back on their own. It's not quick enough to matter in combat, but a few minutes between fights will refill it entirely. Putting X burn into it gets a pool of size (level+0.5*X*level) which recharges (1+0.5*X) points per minute (e.g. 4 burn gets a 3*level pool and 3/minute recharge), so it always takes one minute per level to get back to full. Pumping burn into Force Ward to max out Elemental Overflow and skipping burn-costing talents that you haven't infusion-spec'd to zero is already one of the better play strategies for kineticists, so I don't think pushing it up to no effective HP loss is a good idea.

If the goal for the FCB is to reduce the impact taking burn has on effective hit points, I think an internal buffer increase would be better, because it's already an existing FCB option and because it doesn't have the weird no-effective-cost Force Ward stuff.


Kineticist is a class sorely in need of some affection.

I definitely agree, but this seems contradictory with what you said earlier:

Again, evaluate for balance, not what should've been done with kineticist in the first place.
I'm not sure if you're saying new Kineticist options should be balanced against existing Kineticist options, or if they should be measured by some other standard. Care to clarify?

I also think that racial FCBs aren't a good way to shore up a weak class, for two reasons. First, it results in only certain races being viable choices for Kineticists. Second, if something is introduced later (by DSP or by Paizo) that pushes the Kineticist from "has some problems" to "generally pretty solid", the FCBs in combination with the new option could move it from "generally pretty solid" into "powerful enough to cause problems".


The FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qv2)

Extracts are not items. They are spells. They cannot be quick drawn. No, not even then.

Thanks for digging those up. I'd actually been under the impression that extracts had to be drawn and consumed as separate actions, but apparently that's not the case. Ah, paizo.

[tynansdtm]

I'm having trouble understanding the Alafia's stalker FCB.

Whenever the stalker deals damage with deadly strikes, add 1/5 point of temporary essence to their essence pool. The stalker may assign them as a free action at this time. These points do not stack, and last for one minute.
If I select it 5 times, I get one point every time I hit with Deadly Strikes active? Or only when I activate deadly strikes? If I select it 20 times, do I get 4 points of temporary essence, or still 1 because they don't stack? Every time I generate new points I can lose the old points and use the free action to invest the new points somewhere else?

[PsyBomb]

I'm having trouble understanding the Alafia's stalker FCB.

If I select it 5 times, I get one point every time I hit with Deadly Strikes active? Or only when I activate deadly strikes? If I select it 20 times, do I get 4 points of temporary essence, or still 1 because they don't stack? Every time I generate new points I can lose the old points and use the free action to invest the new points somewhere else?

To answer what I intended:

1) you get the point whenever you hit with Deadly Strikes active
2) you get 4 points
3) yes, each time you activate it you can dump the old ones and use the free-action reassign.

[EldritchWeaver]

Will that be strictly stated with the race, and if so any chance on including an alternate racial trait worded similiarly to the Aegis Customization such as:

Extra Passenger
The atstreidi is exceptionally hollow and adept at shifting its armored shell to accommodate another. Atstreidi can carry one creature of the same size or smaller as the aegis’s base size (powers and effects that increase the atstreidi's size do not allow him to carry larger creatures). The carried creature is treated as if it has total concealment and he gains damage reduction/- equal to 1/2 the armor bonus of Armor Shell. The creature carried using this ability remains adjacent to the atstreidi and moves with the atstreidi’s move actions. A creature can be loaded and unloaded into the Armor Shell as a free action by the atstreidi, but the creature can take no actions until its next turn. This racial trait replaces naturally psionic and psionic aptitude.

Any answer regarding that issue?

[khadgar567]

Any answer regarding that issue?
I hope they add this as racial ability or aegis customization

[Powerdork]

A magus casts a metamagic shocking grasp, as maguses do. Does he gain a bonus to hit a freshly-created atstreidi, per the mechanics of the spell? Current text is ambiguous since an atstreidi is ambiguously all, none, or only some of those things.
That atstreidi later assimilates +1 moderate fortification mithral breastplate. What's the chance he has of ignoring a critical hit, such as a spellstrike shocking grasp? Do the 50% chance and 25% chance get rolled separatly?
Why is the text stating that an atstreidi's weaponless attacks benefit from assimilate armor not found in the text of assimilate armor (instead being found at the end of armor shell)? Why are the stats for an atstreidi's armor shell not presented separately instead of as an extra ability that only starting characters can ever benefit from and is just a waste of character sheet space after that? Related, what happens if an atstreidi is raised while removed from armor?

[Grim Reader]

Now, I wasn't a fan of the first Bloodforge, but this one seems to be loaded with potential so far.

Yeah, Bloodforge was... very far from good. After that I stopped buying Dreamscarred Press products. Hope this can somewhat redeem it.

[khadgar567]

Yeah, Bloodforge was... very far from good. After that I stopped buying Dreamscarred Press products. Hope this can somewhat redeem it.
there is steelforge if you want some items and its quite good

[Extra Anchovies]

Bearded Vulture Tengu's Luck of Kings strongly implies that the AC bonus applies to flat-footed; does it also apply to touch AC? If so, adding "(including flat-footed and touch AC)" to the end of the first sentence would clear that up.

Looking at the Ostrich Tengu again, I may have been too hasty in my initial assessment of its Brutal Kicks. Given that Brawler's Flurry and Flurry of Blows both use 1*Str regardless of weapon type, the 1.5*Str to damage only helps with non-flurry unarmed. It still may be worth a bit more than the traits it replaces, but its current effects are in a pretty good spot.

I appreciate the Kakapo Tengu. Having a small +Str race is nice.

[Powerdork]

For all the reading I did of the Appearance section of the coreid, I still don't know what one can look like.

[MilleniaAntares]

For all the reading I did of the Appearance section of the coreid, I still don't know what one can look like.
I believe it's meant to be ambiguous so the players and DMs can define the appearance themselves. Especially since they don't have a society, and thus any two coreids may look completely different.

That said, I either imagine them as either gems from Steven Universe, or as the dancers from this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2LpOUwca94) music video.

Alternatively, you may wish to look at humanoid constructs, though those may be a bit more "solid" than a coreid.

[Powerdork]

This isn't me looking to play a coreid in my home game (though I might want to anyway), this is me offering feedback: WTF is a coreid? "Their colorations vary depending on the materials they integrate into their being." That's some Bestiary-level vagueness right there.
And just what does it mean to integrate materials into their being? Do they get free personal storage space?

[Kaidinah]

Marksman FCB: feat-equivalents should be +1/6 per level, without exception.
I am going to look into this. I thought it would be fine because of how limited the marksman bonus feats were, combined with ranged combat being filled with feat taxes. However I do see how this can be problematic. I am gonna discuss this with the team. Thank you for the input.


Ooh, I like this archetype. Good to see social rogues getting more support.

The uRogue's Major Magic talent provides 1 use per day per 2 levels, which is twice as many as Mental Infiltrator or Uncanny Image.
At the same time, the uRogue Major Magic talent has a prerequisite talent and it doesn't allow you to burn two daily uses of the SLA to cast a 3rd level spell. At this time I think this balances out. What do you think?


The Psionic Awakening chain is so cool. Seems to me like it's in a great place balance-wise, too.Thank you! This one was a joint effort from the whole team, and pretty fun to design! I was quite happy with the end result.

[Extra Anchovies]

I am going to look into this. I thought it would be fine because of how limited the marksman bonus feats were, combined with ranged combat being filled with feat taxes.

Is it really filled with feat taxes? I count one (Point Blank Shot), or maybe two if you count Precise Shot (which I don't, because it provides concrete, desirable benefits).

The Marksman already gets seven bonus feats, from a list that has most of the good ranged options. I personally think they don't need any more, at least not on a race that already makes for decent Marksmen. It could be an interesting option for a race with a Dexterity or Wisdom penalty, though.


However I do see how this can be problematic. I am gonna discuss this with the team. Thank you for the input.

You're welcome! I do want to reiterate that "without exception" wasn't the best choice of words on my part, but I stand by my position that +1/6 should be the default balance point for feat-equivalent FCBs.


At the same time, the uRogue Major Magic talent has a prerequisite talent and it doesn't allow you to burn two daily uses of the SLA to cast a 3rd level spell. At this time I think this balances out. What do you think?

I still think they're just a touch on the weak side. Maybe add one use per day to each, i.e. 1/day plus one more daily use per 4 Rogue levels?


Thank you! This one was a joint effort from the whole team, and pretty fun to design! I was quite happy with the end result.

I'm a big fan of heritage feats. The Vigor option seems a bit strong at face value - 5*level temp HP up to 6 times per day is pretty significant, especially at the cost of one feat - but that has more to do with Vigor than with Psionic Awakening.

Does Wild Talent give characters the psionic subtype, or do they need to be of a psionic race or class to qualify for the Psionic Awakening chain?

[Kaidinah]

Is it really filled with feat taxes? I count one (Point Blank Shot), or maybe two if you count Precise Shot (which I don't, because it provides concrete, desirable benefits).

The Marksman already gets seven bonus feats, from a list that has most of the good ranged options. I personally think they don't need any more, at least not on a race that already makes for decent Marksmen. It could be an interesting option for a race with a Dexterity or Wisdom penalty, though.



You're welcome! I do want to reiterate that "without exception" wasn't the best choice of words on my part, but I stand by my position that +1/6 should be the default balance point for feat-equivalent FCBs.



I still think they're just a touch on the weak side. Maybe add one use per day to each, i.e. 1/day plus one more daily use per 4 Rogue levels?



I'm a big fan of heritage feats. The Vigor option seems a bit strong at face value - 5*level temp HP up to 6 times per day is pretty significant, especially at the cost of one feat - but that has more to do with Vigor than with Psionic Awakening.

Does Wild Talent give characters the psionic subtype, or do they need to be of a psionic race or class to qualify for the Psionic Awakening chain?
I am going to ponder on that for the Entoli. I like having the extra feats myself, but getting something other than feats might be preferable to others.

As for the rogue talents, they are already 1+ 1 per 4 levels. Did you mean an additional use on top of this?

Vigor is indeed a strong option as an PLA. I do not think its overly strong, but the playtest could prove me wrong. As for Wild Talent, yes. It grants the psionic subtype as of page 136 of ultimate psionics. That is the reason why we don't have a heritage feat for that subtype. Perhaps it should be made more apparent though?

Power Point Reserve: A character’s personal store of power points. A character with a power point reserve gains the psionic subtype and can gain psionic focus, even if the power point reserve has been depleted.

[Alea]

Is it really filled with feat taxes? I count one (Point Blank Shot), or maybe two if you count Precise Shot (which I don't, because it provides concrete, desirable benefits).
You’re wrong, then: Precise Shot provides no benefit. It removes a penalty that never should have existed in the first place; the only reason for it to be there is to force archers to take a feat to remove it.

And two feat taxess is a ton. So yes, archery is an exceptionally taxed combat style.

On the other hand, it also becomes blatantly overpowered once you take the seven or so feats needed to make it go.

[khadgar567]

You’re wrong, then: Precise Shot provides no benefit. It removes a penalty that never should have existed in the first place; the only reason for it to be there is to force archers to take a feat to remove it.

And two feat taxess is a ton. So yes, archery is an exceptionally taxed combat style.

On the other hand, it also becomes blatantly overpowered once you take the seven or so feats needed to make it go.
gonna ask what seven feats but care to explain buddy

[PsyBomb]

gonna ask what seven feats but care to explain buddy

In general, they are:

1) Point Blank Shot
2) Precise Shot
3) Deadly Aim
4) Rapid Shot
5) Manyshot

Some include Clustered Shots and Improved Precise Shot.

EDIT: Forgot Hammer the Gap, much as that feat makes my mathematical brain curl up and cry for mama

[Extra Anchovies]

I am going to ponder on that for the Entoli. I like having the extra feats myself, but getting something other than feats might be preferable to others.

Hm. Given their aerial heritage, here's an idea that comes to mind:

Treat local winds as if +1/5 category lighter (Wind Effects, CRB p. 439) for the purpose of ranged weapon attacks and Perception checks, and add a +2% chance for your ranged weapon attacks to ignore magical wind effects (e.g. Wind Wall).
Not entirely sure about the scaling, or if it overlaps with any Marksman class features, but it's something an archer would appreciate and it opens up some interesting strategies (e.g. fighting in windstorms that prevent enemy ranged attacks but not your own).

As for the rogue talents, they are already 1+ 1 per 4 levels. Did you mean an additional use on top of this?

Dwah! This is admittedly my error, I was misremembering them as 1 per 4 levels minimum 1.


As for Wild Talent, yes. It grants the psionic subtype as of page 136 of ultimate psionics. That is the reason why we don't have a heritage feat for that subtype. Perhaps it should be made more apparent though?

Power Point Reserve: A character’s personal store of power points. A character with a power point reserve gains the psionic subtype and can gain psionic focus, even if the power point reserve has been depleted.

The text of Wild Talent also says the character becomes a psionic character, but it doesn't mention the psionic subtype specifically; I just wanted to make sure that "psionic character" meant "character with the psionic subtype", which it apparently does.


You’re wrong, then: Precise Shot provides no benefit. It removes a penalty that never should have existed in the first place; the only reason for it to be there is to force archers to take a feat to remove it.

And archers should have to take a feat to remove it. Any combat style more complex than "hit enemy with big stick" should require some sort of investment, whether it's Weapon Finesse or Precise Shot, because anything other than "hit enemy with big stick" has benefits to it that "HEWBS" lacks. Dex-based combat increases Reflex saves, armor class, initiative, and a number of skills. Archery gets all of that plus the ability to make a full attack every round from the start of combat without ever having to move. In exchange for that ability and the various Dex-combat benefits, they pay a build-resource cost. For archers, that's a cost of two feats, but regardless of whether you think that's one feat too expensive, Precise Shot is not a problematic part of the cost.


And two feat taxes is a ton.

That's fully functional by third level, at the absolute latest. Second level if you're a Rogue, Ranger, Slayer, Vigilante, or Hunter. First level if you're Human. First level if you're a Fighter. First level if you're a Marksman - which happens to be the class in question here.

[Powerdork]

The text of Wild Talent also says the character becomes a psionic character, but it doesn't mention the psionic subtype specifically; I just wanted to make sure that "psionic character" meant "character with the psionic subtype", which it apparently does.

Per UltPsi glossary, to totally clear this up:
• Power Point: A measure of psionic energy. Power points are spent to manifest powers or use special abilities. Spent power points can be replenished after 8 hours of rest, akin to casters regaining spent spell slots.
• Power Point Reserve: A character's personal store of power points. A character with a power point reserve gains the psionic subtype and can gain psionic focus, even if the power point reserve has been depleted.
• Psionic (subtype): A creature with a power point reserve or psi-like abilities. A psionic creature can gain psionic focus.
•*Psionic Feat: A type of feat which can only be taken by creatures with the psionic subtype.
• Psi-like Ability: A psionic effect which can be manifested without paying a power point cost. ... A creature with psi-like abilities gains the psionic subtype.

Given the above, why does Psionic Awakening call for the psionic subtype as a prerequisite when it already does that by virtue of being a psionic feat?

[GhorrinRedblade]

First thing that jumped out at me:

The coreid's Fighter FCB seems very underwhelming. I don't recall ever before seeing a FCB that provides no quantifiable benefit unless and until you take it all the way to 20.

Later on,
Ghorrin Redbade

[MindTheGap97]

To me Atstreidi sound a lot Monk-oriented (boosts to both their main stats and a malus on the second biggest dump stat), plus that +4 AC is HUGE for a Monk as it doesn't count as worn armor...Well, Monks DO need a boost but I do not really think that's the way they should be boosted, this race is by far a superior option for monks than any other race (with a reasonable amount of RP). Plus I do not really like the fluff of a Atstreidi Monk, I mean, they remember stuff from when they were alive, I assume this expands to fighting style, so it means that a Monk was wearing that armor? I totally get why he died then, he deserved it, really.

Other than that I really like this book and look forward to use it in my campaigns.

[Milo v3]

These will really help my planar-focused/mos eisley cantina setting. Though I second that cassowaries live in jungles and rainforests, not arid areas.

[Extra Anchovies]

Can the Atstreidi's slam be used as a secondary attack (with 0.5*Str as normal) along with weapon attacks? I'm unsure how PF's rules on primary and secondary natural attacks work.


To me Atstreidi sound a lot Monk-oriented (boosts to both their main stats and a malus on the second biggest dump stat), plus that +4 AC is HUGE for a Monk as it doesn't count as worn armor...Well, Monks DO need a boost but I do not really think that's the way they should be boosted, this race is by far a superior option for monks than any other race (with a reasonable amount of RP). Plus I do not really like the fluff of a Atstreidi Monk, I mean, they remember stuff from when they were alive, I assume this expands to fighting style, so it means that a Monk was wearing that armor? I totally get why he died then, he deserved it, really.

Other than that I really like this book and look forward to use it in my campaigns.

Hm. You make a good point. Perhaps an alternate racial trait, perhaps call it Nonrigid Form, that replaces the +4 armor bonus with something else, perhaps a small (+2?) natural armor bonus? That would allow the Armor Shell to be modified to count as worn light armor, while still giving arcane spellcasters and monks some of that racial toughness.

Also, playable slime molds! I definitely didn't make this clear enough in my earlier posts, but I think that's awesome.

[MindTheGap97]

Can the Atstreidi's slam be used as a secondary attack (with 0.5*Str as normal) along with weapon attacks? I'm unsure how PF's rules on primary and secondary natural attacks work.



Hm. You make a good point. Perhaps an alternate racial trait, perhaps call it Nonrigid Form, that replaces the +4 armor bonus with something else, perhaps a small (+2?) natural armor bonus? That would allow the Armor Shell to be modified to count as worn light armor, while still giving arcane spellcasters and monks some of that racial toughness.

Also, playable slime molds! I definitely didn't make this clear enough in my earlier posts, but I think that's awesome.

I really like the idea of playing slime molds, they look pretty cool, plus they have very good racials for fighters, barbarians and mundane classes in general, the creepy knight idea sounds wicked cool. Not a creepy knight Monk though, that really doesn't fit my idea of monk

[Powerdork]

I really like the idea of playing slime molds, they look pretty cool, plus they have very good racials for fighters, barbarians and mundane classes in general, the creepy knight idea sounds wicked cool. Not a creepy knight Monk though, that really doesn't fit my idea of monk

Then don't build it as a monk. Simple as that. (Nevermind that classes are just bases to build on...)
The fluff of the race, by default, makes them miserable at being the creepy knight anyway, and it shows, with an effective -3 to Intimidate and nothing really innately creepy about them beyond "ick, its insides are fungus".

Now, tell me, does a race of bug-men make terrible monks just because they've got chitinous exoskeletons? They've still got the ability to perform all the movements. So should a psionic shapeless mass that naturally builds a metal shell shaped like a people. If that psionic shapeless mass migrates to a manufactured armour, then yeah, it's going to lose that familiarity accordingly.

[MindTheGap97]

Then don't build it as a monk. Simple as that. (Nevermind that classes are just bases to build on...)
The fluff of the race, by default, makes them miserable at being the creepy knight anyway, and it shows, with an effective -3 to Intimidate and nothing really innately creepy about them beyond "ick, its insides are fungus".

Now, tell me, does a race of bug-men make terrible monks just because they've got chitinous exoskeletons? They've still got the ability to perform all the movements. So should a psionic shapeless mass that naturally builds a metal shell shaped like a people. If that psionic shapeless mass migrates to a manufactured armour, then yeah, it's going to lose that familiarity accordingly.

This is a good point, at the very least on the Monk side, I also agree that the base version of Atstreidi makes a terrible creepy knight, luckily you can switch the -2 to Intimidate with a +2 to Intimidate, thus turning into good creepy knights

[Lord_Gareth]

Thanks for your patience thus far folks, real life got the entire team for unrelated reasons at the same time. We'll be in touch Soon(tm).

[Akadzjian]

Hey everyone, I'll try to address the issues with the coreid here so you know what's being done and why:

Firstly, yeah. The description on the coreid is horridly vague. I'll try to do a better description of them, but basically think Sandman from Spiderman, only not necessarily made of sand. Guess I got ahead of myself in the actual description since it was discussed throughout design what they were and the fact that I never ACTUALLY described them in strict terms within the document went right over my head. Completely my bad. I apologize profusely.

Coreid's Fighter FCB: The intention was the make a slightly greater reach, but... that's a horrid ground to walk on. Again, bad judgement on my part. It's being changed to a +2% chance to negate sneak attacks and critical hits.

We'll be updating the playtest document shortly.

Thanks for your patience,
Matt

[khadgar567]

@Akadzjian can coreid use its base form with just arms instead of creating full body and can coreis recycle its body instead of healing it compleatly

[Akadzjian]

@Akadzjian can coreid use its base form with just arms instead of creating full body and can coreis recycle its body instead of healing it compleatly

I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to by "base form" so I'll answer both possible assumptions:

If Base Form refers to just the core:
Mechanically I don't see why you'd want to - you'd have an AC of 14, 10 hardness and 2 hp/hd. I could easily write something up allowing you to, but again, the fragile crystal core is basically your entire vitality. If that breaks, you're gone forever. I'd even argue that they define themselves as humanoid, so going without their "particulate form" would be akin to a human going without its skin. Incredibly uncomfortable to the point of being completely anathema to it.

If Base Form refers to some sort of shapeless column or mass:
I'd again argue that they define themselves as humanoid. They have no real choice but to assume humanoid form, as anything else is just... horrid. They want to remain in it. Hence why they don't have a mutable form or some sort of shapechanger subtype - they only have one form, as far as they're concerned. They can change that form to reflect some sort of personality - like making their form look like an adonis or having feminine or masculine characteristics but it'll always be humanoid in a sense.

For the second half of your question: Them "healing" is a mixture of things - they pull their pieces together, process new materials into particulates, and just try to pull themselves back together. I guess the fluff isn't clear enough, they grind down surrounding materials into particulates, which they then create their form out of. Resurrection would restore their form as its so tied to them that it might as well be their flesh and blood.

Finally - playtest document updated.

[Extra Anchovies]

Coreid's Fighter FCB: The intention was the make a slightly greater reach, but... that's a horrid ground to walk on. Again, bad judgement on my part. It's being changed to a +2% chance to negate sneak attacks and critical hits.

Hm. That's definitely a fitting FCB. I feel like I'd pass up +2% in favor of a skill point, but +3% would have the opposite effect. Setting it to +2.5% rounded down would total to an even 50%, which appeals to my inner neurotic perfectionist.


If Base Form refers to just the core:
Mechanically I don't see why you'd want to - you'd have an AC of 14, 10 hardness and 2 hp/hd. I could easily write something up allowing you to, but again, the fragile crystal core is basically your entire vitality. If that breaks, you're gone forever. I'd even argue that they define themselves as humanoid, so going without their "particulate form" would be akin to a human going without its skin. Incredibly uncomfortable to the point of being completely anathema to it.

I think the core should never be separately targetable unless the coreid is discorporated. Too much potential for weird stuff without any real benefit.

Related idea: perhaps it should be included that the core moves around within the coreid, such that attacks which sink deep into or all the way through the particulate body won't ever also strike the core.


If Base Form refers to some sort of shapeless column or mass:
I'd again argue that they define themselves as humanoid. They have no real choice but to assume humanoid form, as anything else is just... horrid. They want to remain in it. Hence why they don't have a mutable form or some sort of shapechanger subtype - they only have one form, as far as they're concerned. They can change that form to reflect some sort of personality - like making their form look like an adonis or having feminine or masculine characteristics but it'll always be humanoid in a sense.

Given that they're somewhat humanoid intelligences, perhaps their mind doesn't know how to operate a nonhumanoid body? They could form a differently structured body, but it would feel somehow wrong, and they wouldn't be able to move any parts that weren't kept from their humanoid form.

Another idea regarding shape is that they could share some elements with the Changelings as detailed in Races of Eberron, specifically the divisions regarding how they perceive themselves. Some coreids could try to construct as lifelike a form as possible, sorting through particulates to get the right colors and shapes in the right places, while others embrace their amorphous nature and forgo details in favor of a more abstract humanoid shape.


For the second half of your question: Them "healing" is a mixture of things - they pull their pieces together, process new materials into particulates, and just try to pull themselves back together. I guess the fluff isn't clear enough, they grind down surrounding materials into particulates, which they then create their form out of. Resurrection would restore their form as its so tied to them that it might as well be their flesh and blood.

Huh. This is a creature for which hit points actually make sense - their HP is the pull they exert on the particulates to keep their form together, and damage to the particulate body weakens that pull (perhaps by causing strain on the coreid's mental endurance). At higher levels they have more HP because they've gotten better at holding their form together as they've improved their other abilities.


Finally - playtest document updated.

Any specific sections that got big changes?

[Akadzjian]

Hm. That's definitely a fitting FCB. I feel like I'd pass up +2% in favor of a skill point, but +3% would have the opposite effect. Setting it to +2.5% rounded down would total to an even 50%, which appeals to my inner neurotic perfectionist.
I think the core should never be separately targetable unless the coreid is discorporated. Too much potential for weird stuff without any real benefit.
Related idea: perhaps it should be included that the core moves around within the coreid, such that attacks which sink deep into or all the way through the particulate body won't ever also strike the core.
Given that they're somewhat humanoid intelligences, perhaps their mind doesn't know how to operate a nonhumanoid body? They could form a differently structured body, but it would feel somehow wrong, and they wouldn't be able to move any parts that weren't kept from their humanoid form.
Another idea regarding shape is that they could share some elements with the Changelings as detailed in Races of Eberron, specifically the divisions regarding how they perceive themselves. Some coreids could try to construct as lifelike a form as possible, sorting through particulates to get the right colors and shapes in the right places, while others embrace their amorphous nature and forgo details in favor of a more abstract humanoid shape.
I'm glad the new FCB passes muster. I agree with the +2.5% (the total would actually be 75% total, since it has a base 25%) it appeals to my inner neurosis as well. I also agree with the sentiments about the coreid just... being humanoid. Especially since that's ALL it knows about itself, it wouldn't really be willing to give up that little bit of self-definition, since that's their core thought at the point of... awakening? Hence my likening it to a human walking around without skin. Finally, I actually already wrote your last idea into the fluff - that's always been my idea for them. They define themselves, in a very literal sense. Some find being rotund appealing, others prefer to look like an adonis, some look feminine, some masculine, and some are content to merely keep their original, vague shape. It's the thought that counts.


Huh. This is a creature for which hit points actually make sense - their HP is the pull they exert on the particulates to keep their form together, and damage to the particulate body weakens that pull (perhaps by causing strain on the coreid's mental endurance). At higher levels they have more HP because they've gotten better at holding their form together as they've improved their other abilities.
Yeah! Someone else on the design team made the same comment. I'm pleased I can justify hit points. ;)




Any specific sections that got big changes?
No huge overhaul (with the exception of the coreid fluff for clarity's sake). Alafia's poison is now properly formatted, etc. Sorry this took so long, I had this reply typed up but it never submitted for some reason. My original was a little more verbose but hopefully this will suffice with the limited time I have this Monday morning?

[Shackel]

Are there any plans on making feats or racial traits for the Coreid focusing on the psicrystal? It seems like a really neat idea to have, say, the core itself become a psicrystal for additional effects. Perhaps a feat for later levels (Imp. Psicyrstal + Level 11 or more maybe?) that takes it further and allows the core psicrystal to move outside of the body, becoming a sort of pseudo-phylactery at the risk of it being found and destroyed.

As a note, the Coreid FCB for Psion might be a little too powerful. Throw in an orange ioun stone along with that trait that gives you +1 manifester level to a power and at level 12 we're talking 9th level astral constructs.

I do hate to quote myself, but I am curious on if anything up there is addressable.

[Akadzjian]

I do hate to quote myself, but I am curious on if anything up there is addressable. Oh, I'm sorry. I overlooked yours. Currently I haven't designed any feats for the psicrystal but that could definitely be done. We should have more than one or two racial feats since we have a racial feats section anyways. Although we're trying to make racial feats less... specific races and more based on type or subtype. So at the least it'd be something like requiring a natural psionic aptitude trait. I'll think about what can be done.

[Mehangel]

Similar to Shackel, this question has also not been answered, which was referring to the response that atstreidi cannot normally be "worn as armor"


Will that be strictly stated with the race, and if so any chance on including an alternate racial trait worded similarly to the Aegis Customization such as:

Extra Passenger
The atstreidi is exceptionally hollow and adept at shifting its armored shell to accommodate another. Atstreidi can carry one creature of the same size or smaller as the atstreidi’s base size (powers and effects that increase the atstreidi's size do not allow him to carry larger creatures). The carried creature is treated as if it has total concealment and he gains damage reduction/- equal to 1/2 the armor bonus of Armor Shell. The creature carried using this ability remains adjacent to the atstreidi and moves with the atstreidi’s move actions. A creature can be loaded and unloaded into the Armor Shell as a free action by the atstreidi, but the creature can take no actions until its next turn. This racial trait replaces naturally psionic and psionic aptitude.

[Powerdork]

I feel like two of my posts on page 2 got lost in the shuffle (on atstreidi and the Psionic Awakening feat). Any word on those topics?

[Shackel]

Oh, I'm sorry. I overlooked yours. Currently I haven't designed any feats for the psicrystal but that could definitely be done. We should have more than one or two racial feats since we have a racial feats section anyways. Although we're trying to make racial feats less... specific races and more based on type or subtype. So at the least it'd be something like requiring a natural psionic aptitude trait. I'll think about what can be done.

Oooh, that's neat, and I can understand the reasoning behind it. I am curious if anything can be said about the Coreid FCB, though, for that's probably the thing I'm most worried about. Even 8th level constructs at level 11 can be dangerous, let alone 9th level(with a possible 4 Menu C options if you're in the correct discipline) at level 12. Although CR doesn't mean a lot, it means you're summoning creatures with a CR only 2 below a party member's, and that's without the bonus choices.

[Akadzjian]

A magus casts a metamagic shocking grasp, as maguses do. Does he gain a bonus to hit a freshly-created atstreidi, per the mechanics of the spell? Current text is ambiguous since an atstreidi is ambiguously all, none, or only some of those things.
That atstreidi later assimilates +1 moderate fortification mithral breastplate. What's the chance he has of ignoring a critical hit, such as a spellstrike shocking grasp? Do the 50% chance and 25% chance get rolled separatly?
Why is the text stating that an atstreidi's weaponless attacks benefit from assimilate armor not found in the text of assimilate armor (instead being found at the end of armor shell)? Why are the stats for an atstreidi's armor shell not presented separately instead of as an extra ability that only starting characters can ever benefit from and is just a waste of character sheet space after that? Related, what happens if an atstreidi is raised while removed from armor?
I'm not the one who wrote Atstreidi but we've discussed it internally and thus I'll present the answers I have, and mark speculation as just that:

Metal Armor Question: We'd discussed this and decided that the intention of the race was such that the mold had an odd quality about it that negated the metal state of the armor. So even though the atstreidi armor is FLUFFED as metal, it itself is not actually metal. Allowing a "naked/newborn" atstreidi the comfort of not providing that attack bonus, as well as allowing atstreidi to be druids. I'll ask the original author if they have time to write that in as an official mechanic, or to allow me should she lack the time.

On % chance: this is... a gray area. Official ruling would have it treated like standard fortification, which to me has always been "highest % overlaps all lower %."

On atstreidi base form: Not bad input, but to a degree, I guess that's what an eraser/the delete key is for (not trying to be mouthy, just not sure its a big deal)? I agree overall but I don't know if its worth giving its own area. I'll bring that over to internals and get a second check-over. As for resurrected outside of armor? It'd reform its initial shell, since that'd be its skin. It'd lose the armor as any dead creature would.

Hope this helps!


Similar to Shackel, this question has also not been answered, which was referring to the response that atstreidi cannot normally be "worn as armor"
Ah, we discussed this. I believe the original author saw the atstreidi normally as not allowing someone to "wear" it. With the exception of the aegis customization you'd mentioned earlier. I'll double-check, and sorry for the delay. I really am. Must've missed you.


I feel like two of my posts on page 2 got lost in the shuffle (on atstreidi and the Psionic Awakening feat). Any word on those topics?
We completely overlooked that. I don't think we discussed it in internals. I'll bring it up and get back to you ASAP.
OK, double-checked, to quote directly: "Atstreidi are psionic, so they can take the feat like anyone else. If they use inertial armor, it overlaps with their existing armor bonus, just like anyone else with one."


Oooh, that's neat, and I can understand the reasoning behind it. I am curious if anything can be said about the Coreid FCB, though, for that's probably the thing I'm most worried about. Even 8th level constructs at level 11 can be dangerous, let alone 9th level(with a possible 4 Menu C options if you're in the correct discipline) at level 12. Although CR doesn't mean a lot, it means you're summoning creatures with a CR only 2 below a party member's, and that's without the bonus choices.

There. I downgraded it to 1/5th. I agree with you. Dunno why I thought 1/4 was low enough.

Sorry about the immense amount of posts. Didn't realize it was a faux pas. I'll refrain from doing so in the future.

[Mehangel]

Ah, we discussed this. I believe the original author saw the atstreidi normally as not allowing someone to "wear" it. With the exception of the aegis customization you'd mentioned earlier. I'll double-check, and sorry for the delay. I really am. Must've missed you.

OK, double-checked, to quote directly: "Atstreidi are psionic, so they can take the feat like anyone else. If they use inertial armor, it overlaps with their existing armor bonus, just like anyone else with one."


Either the second part was referring to a post made my someone else, or you mis-interpreted my question.

My question was two-part.

1st) I understand that the original author had not INTENDED to allow others to wear the atstreidi, but will it be CLEARLY stated that another individual may NOT wear the atstreidi anywhere in the race description/text?

2nd) IF it is CLEARLY stated that another may NOT wear the atstreidi, can you please include the racial trait (such as the one I provided) so that IT CAN?

[Akadzjian]

Either the second part was referring to a post made my someone else, or you mis-interpreted my question.

My question was two-part.

1st) I understand that the original author had not INTENDED to allow others to wear the atstreidi, but will it be CLEARLY stated that another individual may NOT wear the atstreidi anywhere in the race description/text?

2nd) IF it is CLEARLY stated that another may NOT wear the atstreidi, can you please include the racial trait (such as the one I provided) so that IT CAN?
Right, sorry. Fixed my above mistake. The original author, however, was very against the idea of creatures wearing the atstreidi. They are not armor and would consider it an invasive thing. I'll talk to them about putting it in officially, and obviously if you want to house-rule that people can, then that's your right to do so.

Officially? The verdict is no that isn't a possibility, and actually it already kinda does in the fluff, it describes them as growing naturally gemetric whorls and other protrusions, then describes the atstreidi within the armor "growing as they naturally do" so it's like an iron maiden inside. Sorry, hope that doesn't ruin the race for you.

However, again, atstreidi aegis can do it as normal for an aegis. It wouldn't be inside them, just inside the aegis' ectoplasmic armor. Like everyone else.

[Mehangel]

Right, sorry. Fixed my above mistake. The original author, however, was very against the idea of creatures wearing the atstreidi. They are not armor and would consider it an invasive thing. I'll talk to them about putting it in officially, and obviously if you want to house-rule that people can, then that's your right to do so.

Officially? The verdict is no that isn't a possibility, and actually it already kinda does in the fluff, it describes them as growing naturally gemetric whorls and other protrusions, then describes the atstreidi within the armor "growing as they naturally do" so it's like an iron maiden inside. Sorry, hope that doesn't ruin the race for you.

However, again, atstreidi aegis can do it as normal for an aegis. It wouldn't be inside them, just inside the aegis' ectoplasmic armor. Like everyone else.

That is fine, I was mostly interested in the race for someone else (who is playing a monk, not an aegis). The player whose character concept is he is a suit of armor that self-animated. Despite not needing a person, the player has come into possession of a comatose NPC which he decided to "consume" so to keep him preserved inside himself until a time that we as a party can find a way to revive the Captain. But, if the atstreidi wont be acquiring any actual support for this, that is fine, the player will simply continue to utilize the 'Created' race from Players Guide to Skybourne.

[Extra Anchovies]

Psychic Speech has some definite ambiguities regarding how it functions, and I think the telepathy rabbit hole is not worth going down. Perhaps add something about the mental noise functioning as a normal voice for all purposes, e.g. can have pitch/volume raised/lowered within certain ranges, is language-dependent (maybe they start knowing one language of the creature to last wear the armor before them?), and so on? Regarding deaf creatures, I think it would make sense to handle it like so (perhaps in a sidebar to keep the ability description short):
1. Naturally deaf creatures (and those who're deaf from a young enough age that they never learned to speak) to be capable of "hearing" the Atstreidi's voice and able to determine its source/tone/etc as if they weren't deaf, but incapable of understanding the words even if they know how to read and write the language the Atstreidi is using.
2. Creatures who were at some point in the past able to understand the spoken form of the language the Atstreidi is using automatically understand the Atstreidi's voice, because they still have the memory of what the "sounds" projected into their brains mean.



To me Atstreidi sound a lot Monk-oriented (boosts to both their main stats and a malus on the second biggest dump stat), plus that +4 AC is HUGE for a Monk as it doesn't count as worn armor...Well, Monks DO need a boost but I do not really think that's the way they should be boosted, this race is by far a superior option for monks than any other race (with a reasonable amount of RP). Plus I do not really like the fluff of a Atstreidi Monk, I mean, they remember stuff from when they were alive, I assume this expands to fighting style, so it means that a Monk was wearing that armor? I totally get why he died then, he deserved it, really.

Hm. You make a good point. Perhaps an alternate racial trait, by the name of Nonrigid Form or some such, that replaces the +4 armor bonus with something else, maybe a small (+2?) natural armor bonus? That would allow the Armor Shell to be modified to count as worn light armor, while still giving arcane spellcasters and monks some of that racial toughness.

Bringing this forward. Fluff for nonrigid form could be that it's fed on armor's materials, absorbing some of its metallic strength while weakening the plates to the point that they no longer provide protection on their own. Could be a subspecies of Atstreidi or something. Thoughts?


Metal Armor Question: We'd discussed this and decided that the intention of the race was such that the mold had an odd quality about it that negated the metal state of the armor. So even though the atstreidi armor is FLUFFED as metal, it itself is not actually metal. Allowing a "naked/newborn" atstreidi the comfort of not providing that attack bonus, as well as allowing atstreidi to be druids. I'll ask the original author if they have time to write that in as an official mechanic, or to allow me should she lack the time.

I thought the innate armor bonus was because their fungus was still surrounded by the suit of armor it awakened in. What you're describing sounds like natural armor, which I don't think the class should have by default given that its whole schtick is "living suit of armor".


We completely overlooked that. I don't think we discussed it in internals. I'll bring it up and get back to you ASAP.
OK, double-checked, to quote directly: "Atstreidi are psionic, so they can take the feat like anyone else. If they use inertial armor, it overlaps with their existing armor bonus, just like anyone else with one."

Yeah, [armor] bonuses don't stack with each other, regardless of their source(s).

[Snow-blind]

Here are my observations so far. Some are actual problems, some are question marks where I don't know the answer, some are suggestions that I think might make the rules a little better. Warning - I can be very nitpicky, but don't worry - tiny niggly little details aside, I do like what I see.

Atstreidi

In the Demeanor section, it says this - "Most do not kill easily, as the cessation of action and sensation is their greatest fear, one that they cannot bear to inflict.". This implies that most Atstreidi are mentally incapable of killing. This would make Atstreidi as rare as hens teeth(EDIT: Astreidi in the adventuring profession, that is). Shouldn't it be a little less absolute e.g. "...their greatest fear, one that they are loathe to inflict". It maintains roughly the same flavor, while not putting hard restrictions on the behavior of "normal" Atstreidi.
The Aegis FCB has no duration. Is it really supposed to increase the hardness of something forever?

Coreid

Vital Core has questionable wording. "corporeal form" sounds like a game term, which implies that the Coreid becomes incorporeal somehow. Also, the placement of the "resurrection" clause makes it sound like the Coreid needs to wait a day before they can be resurrected, and even then only if their core is intact, but that shouldn't be necessary because they gain full HP anyway.
The "building up" text in the Metallic form text refers to recovering from discorporation , right? It isn't immediately obvious because there isn't any mention of building up materials in the normal Coreid's mechanical description.
Coreids with Closest Imitation keep both Vital Core and Slight Frame with no modifications, which is a little odd. They also lose the ability to go without air, food or drink. Is this intentional?
Does the fighter FCB stack additively with things like Fortification, or do the effects both get checked separately?

Eiremian

Silent Desolation doesn't help with things like Enervate that can heal undead but don't deal damage to living creatures. Considering that Enervate is probably up there as one of the best offensive negative energy spells, not having it hurt undead seems a little off.
The Terrible Piece can be used to stop archers drawing arrows, spellcasters speaking and so on. That would allow the Eiremian to lock out archers from their full attack by nixing the second arrow draw (or gun reload or whatever), and it would arguably allow them to lock casters out of both their standard and swift/immediate action casting (as well as communicating with their team) by nixing the spellcaster when they are speaking as a free action to fulfill somatic components. This is just a quick bunch of things I can come up with off the top of my head. There might be even more nasty stuff.
Geth's Mind Control? Is this some Melf's Acid Arrow-esque 3.5 naming slipping in?


Ethumion
Contageous Enthusiasm enables things like TWF flask throwing or Fungal Stun Vial spam. Not that it is necessarily a real problem. Just pointing it out that it is enabling something that was deliberately removed from Pathfinder and is assumed to not be an issue. no don't mention the alchemist, that is totally different because reasons

Kitsune

FYI, this is copy-pasted and modified from a post I made on the Paizo forums.

If I understand the polymorph rules correctly, Yokai are all kinds of wonky by RAW. They change into their base form with a polymorph effect, which runs contrary to how polymorph effects work. If the wording is wonky and they simply end their human form like most shapeshifters, they cannot merge with their gear. If they stay in their base form with a polymorph effect, a whole range of effects can cause them to (presumably) demerge with their gear. Ending a Baleful Polymorph effect as a standard action, having a trivial polymorph effect cast on them while in fox form (like aspect of the falcon), stepping into an AMF and getting hit by a True Form spell will make all their gear pop out and scatter everywhere. True Seeing would also show all their gear jutting out of them. Funnily enough, I don't know of any text which would make death end a polymorph effect, and if there is, it won't end the polymorph effect if the wording is such that the Yokai reverts to its natural form without any other relevant provisions (because the fox form is its natural form, despite it being a polymorph effect). The mechanical specifics of the ability is bizarre by any measure, and is bound to create all sorts of iffy interactions with any other rules elements which assume that "polymorph effect" and "natural form" aren't paired together. Unfortunately, I am not sure if there is a clean way around this, although I would suggest making the gear merging in natural form a seperate thing that can stack with other polymorph effects which don't kick it into another form entirely - that should hopefully eliminate some of the wierdness.

I found Liminal Mediator's wording confusing with regards to its DC bonus to death effects. I know that it is similar to Spell Focus's wording. I just found it confusing to parse and on my first read I though that it gave a save bonus vs death effects instead of a bonus on death effect DCs. Maybe it is just me, though.

A Huli Jing can drain its own familiar, animal companion, summoned creature(!!!) or fellow party members each day with no downsides whatsoever so long as a non-disposable drained creature never take more than a single point of constitution damage. It might also be worth slipping the word "another" into "drain the vital essence of a living creature".

Kumihos getting +wis seems a little...jarring (IMHO). I am not particularly keen on a race of vicious predators who seduce, bluff and disguise their way through murder after murder but who often get caught out through fairly obvious means being considered "wise". I get that they have a Hunteresque theme, but in both the sub-race description and the Korean mythology which it is based on there aren't any indications that the Kumiho is strongly attuned to nature, the gods or anything else (the mythology I have read during my google search, at least). They seem to stay in the wilds as a means of survival, and try to manipulate their way into civilization whenever feasible. +cha seems more appropriate. Heck, +int seems more appropriate - from what I have read they seem less "elegant and suave" and more "keeping down barely constrained brute force and hatred with ruthless intelligence". That doesn't strike me as being either subtle and manipulative or being wise and mystical. +wis is something I find weird in a sub-race that is more predisposed to being sociopathic killers* a la SCP-953 than it is predisposed to being wise fonts of harmony that are deeply attuned with the natural order (but then again, none of the mental ability scores are a perfect match, so YMMV).

As written, the Kumiho can arguably get two days of life from a single creature by consuming both its heart and its liver. Maybe toss in something to the effect of "drain the remains of a dead creature's life force by consuming its heart or liver" so it is clear that the draining is giving the extra life, not the eating of organs.

Sworn Secrecy (Ex) doesn't technically protect from effects such as Share Memory or Detect Thoughts, since they aren't forcing the Zenko to reveal their secrets. They are reading the secrets directly.

As far as I know, there are no Kitsune FCBs for DSP classes. This would be a pretty good place to show them some more love, if you can manage to find some space for it.
*as an aside, sociopaths usually have a lack of emotional connection with others and can seem really creepy, but make up for it with raw intelligence directed towards manipulation.

That's it for now. Maybe more later on the other races. Hope I was mildly helpful.

[khadgar567]

A Huli Jing can drain its own familiar, animal companion, summoned creature(!!!) or fellow party members each day with no downsides whatsoever so long as a non-disposable drained creature never take more than a single point of constitution damage. It might also be worth slipping the word "another" into "drain the vital essence of a living creature".
[/LIST]
might want to check sanguinist medic dip for op ness since huli jing can drain con then heal the damage by using triage you get nearly no problem to keep yourself fed infinitely while keeping party exactly in same power level

[Powerdork]

Geth's Mind Control? Is this some Melf's Acid Arrow-esque 3.5 naming slipping in?


Yes, actually. The print/PDF editions of the psionic books include names for several powers, which are stripped when put on d20pfSRD, as they are Product Identity and you can't reproduce that without written permission of the copyright-holder (IIRC).

[digiman619]

Geth's Mind Control?

Oh my god, Indoctrination! Where's Commander Sheppard when you need them?!?!

[Tuvarkz]

Could be good to get some racial FCBs for Kitsune and Tengu (and others) with DSP classes.
Also, regarding the new rogue talents: Any intentions on marking a few of these to be take-able by slayers?
Muddled Blood/Mutant: Are these intended to be take once only, or any chances each can be taken more than once?

[Powerdork]

Any intentions on marking a few of these to be take-able by slayers?

Yeah, same with alchemist and other classes whose talents include something that effectively works out to "Rogue Talent: Pick a rogue talent (but not any rogue talent)."

[Lord_Gareth]

I ARISE, TO ADDRESS STUFF


Here are my observations so far. Some are actual problems, some are question marks where I don't know the answer, some are suggestions that I think might make the rules a little better. Warning - I can be very nitpicky, but don't worry - tiny niggly little details aside, I do like what I see.

Atstreidi

In the Demeanor section, it says this - "Most do not kill easily, as the cessation of action and sensation is their greatest fear, one that they cannot bear to inflict.". This implies that most Atstreidi are mentally incapable of killing. This would make Atstreidi as rare as hens teeth(EDIT: Astreidi in the adventuring profession, that is). Shouldn't it be a little less absolute e.g. "...their greatest fear, one that they are loathe to inflict". It maintains roughly the same flavor, while not putting hard restrictions on the behavior of "normal" Atstreidi.
The Aegis FCB has no duration. Is it really supposed to increase the hardness of something forever?

Handled, should be populated to the playtest soon if it isn't already. In the latter case, yes, forever. Have fun.


Coreid

Vital Core has questionable wording. "corporeal form" sounds like a game term, which implies that the Coreid becomes incorporeal somehow. Also, the placement of the "resurrection" clause makes it sound like the Coreid needs to wait a day before they can be resurrected, and even then only if their core is intact, but that shouldn't be necessary because they gain full HP anyway.
The "building up" text in the Metallic form text refers to recovering from discorporation , right? It isn't immediately obvious because there isn't any mention of building up materials in the normal Coreid's mechanical description.
Coreids with Closest Imitation keep both Vital Core and Slight Frame with no modifications, which is a little odd. They also lose the ability to go without air, food or drink. Is this intentional?
Does the fighter FCB stack additively with things like Fortification, or do the effects both get checked separately?

Vital Core is undergoing some proposed wording revision.


Vital Core (Ex): A coreid's only vital point is the crystal core that contains their consciousness; they benefit from a 25% chance to negate critical hits and sneak attacks, which stacks with effects such as fortification. This core remains hidden and mobile through the coreid's form, and thus cannot be specifically targeted while the coreid has a body around it (such as by called shots). When the coreid is reduced to 0 or less hit points, their form dissembles into a pile and exposes their core, enabling it to be targeted. While in this state, the coreid is their core rather than a creature. The core is a diminutive object with 2 hit points per hit die of the coreid, AC 14, and 10 hardness. The coreid reconstitutes a body after one day as long as their core has not been destroyed, regaining their full maximum hit point total (they still do not gain other resources, such as spells or power points) and becoming a living, mobile creature once more. If the core is destroyed, it may be used as the coreid's remains for spells such as resurrection and other effects which require or use the remains of a living creature.

Metallic Form proposed reword


Metallic Form (Ex): Rare coreid land amidst massive veins or collections of metal. These coreid only grind down metal for their forms. They increase their natural armor bonus to AC by +2 and gain DR 1/adamantine, which improves by 1 every 4 character levels. They do not gain a bonus to CMD from their particulate form racial ability. In addition, their preference for metals means that they only build up their form from nearby metals. The coreid takes three days to reconstitute its body (see the vital core ability), but this time may be hastened by being supplied with mundane metals; every 50 pounds of metal provided to the core shortens this time by 1 day. This racial trait replaces slight frame.

Closest Imitation proposed reword


Closest Imitation (Ex): The rarest coreid have an inkling of the beings they once were, to the point where their form is fused particulate. Their type changes to Humanoid (aberrant). These coreid may be Medium or Small (chosen at character creation) and gain an additional power point per level. This racial trait replaces particulate form.

And yes, such coreid need food, air, water. Why? Who knows. Maybe in focusing on imitating life, they meet some measure of success.

Fighter FCB question answered in Vital Core reword.


Eiremian

Silent Desolation doesn't help with things like Enervate that can heal undead but don't deal damage to living creatures. Considering that Enervate is probably up there as one of the best offensive negative energy spells, not having it hurt undead seems a little off.
The Terrible Piece can be used to stop archers drawing arrows, spellcasters speaking and so on. That would allow the Eiremian to lock out archers from their full attack by nixing the second arrow draw (or gun reload or whatever), and it would arguably allow them to lock casters out of both their standard and swift/immediate action casting (as well as communicating with their team) by nixing the spellcaster when they are speaking as a free action to fulfill somatic components. This is just a quick bunch of things I can come up with off the top of my head. There might be even more nasty stuff.
Geth's Mind Control? Is this some Melf's Acid Arrow-esque 3.5 naming slipping in?


Energy drain is a whole different beast from raw negative energy damage.

The Terrible Peace will be getting a soft edit to prevent this issue.

See Ultimate Psionics


Ethumion
Contageous Enthusiasm enables things like TWF flask throwing or Fungal Stun Vial spam. Not that it is necessarily a real problem. Just pointing it out that it is enabling something that was deliberately removed from Pathfinder and is assumed to not be an issue. no don't mention the alchemist, that is totally different because reasons

Yeah...there's an amount that we care about this, and it is below zero. There was nothing wrong with flask throwers, and the 'deliberate removal' was not done for reasons of balance, and that's all I'm going to say on the matter.


Kitsune

FYI, this is copy-pasted and modified from a post I made on the Paizo forums.

If I understand the polymorph rules correctly, Yokai are all kinds of wonky by RAW. They change into their base form with a polymorph effect, which runs contrary to how polymorph effects work. If the wording is wonky and they simply end their human form like most shapeshifters, they cannot merge with their gear. If they stay in their base form with a polymorph effect, a whole range of effects can cause them to (presumably) demerge with their gear. Ending a Baleful Polymorph effect as a standard action, having a trivial polymorph effect cast on them while in fox form (like aspect of the falcon), stepping into an AMF and getting hit by a True Form spell will make all their gear pop out and scatter everywhere. True Seeing would also show all their gear jutting out of them. Funnily enough, I don't know of any text which would make death end a polymorph effect, and if there is, it won't end the polymorph effect if the wording is such that the Yokai reverts to its natural form without any other relevant provisions (because the fox form is its natural form, despite it being a polymorph effect). The mechanical specifics of the ability is bizarre by any measure, and is bound to create all sorts of iffy interactions with any other rules elements which assume that "polymorph effect" and "natural form" aren't paired together. Unfortunately, I am not sure if there is a clean way around this, although I would suggest making the gear merging in natural form a seperate thing that can stack with other polymorph effects which don't kick it into another form entirely - that should hopefully eliminate some of the wierdness.

I found Liminal Mediator's wording confusing with regards to its DC bonus to death effects. I know that it is similar to Spell Focus's wording. I just found it confusing to parse and on my first read I though that it gave a save bonus vs death effects instead of a bonus on death effect DCs. Maybe it is just me, though.

A Huli Jing can drain its own familiar, animal companion, summoned creature(!!!) or fellow party members each day with no downsides whatsoever so long as a non-disposable drained creature never take more than a single point of constitution damage. It might also be worth slipping the word "another" into "drain the vital essence of a living creature".

Kumihos getting +wis seems a little...jarring (IMHO). I am not particularly keen on a race of vicious predators who seduce, bluff and disguise their way through murder after murder but who often get caught out through fairly obvious means being considered "wise". I get that they have a Hunteresque theme, but in both the sub-race description and the Korean mythology which it is based on there aren't any indications that the Kumiho is strongly attuned to nature, the gods or anything else (the mythology I have read during my google search, at least). They seem to stay in the wilds as a means of survival, and try to manipulate their way into civilization whenever feasible. +cha seems more appropriate. Heck, +int seems more appropriate - from what I have read they seem less "elegant and suave" and more "keeping down barely constrained brute force and hatred with ruthless intelligence". That doesn't strike me as being either subtle and manipulative or being wise and mystical. +wis is something I find weird in a sub-race that is more predisposed to being sociopathic killers* a la SCP-953 than it is predisposed to being wise fonts of harmony that are deeply attuned with the natural order (but then again, none of the mental ability scores are a perfect match, so YMMV).

As written, the Kumiho can arguably get two days of life from a single creature by consuming both its heart and its liver. Maybe toss in something to the effect of "drain the remains of a dead creature's life force by consuming its heart or liver" so it is clear that the draining is giving the extra life, not the eating of organs.

Sworn Secrecy (Ex) doesn't technically protect from effects such as Share Memory or Detect Thoughts, since they aren't forcing the Zenko to reveal their secrets. They are reading the secrets directly.

As far as I know, there are no Kitsune FCBs for DSP classes. This would be a pretty good place to show them some more love, if you can manage to find some space for it.
*as an aside, sociopaths usually have a lack of emotional connection with others and can seem really creepy, but make up for it with raw intelligence directed towards manipulation.

Yokai are kinda weird, but there's not really a better mechanical way to handle it. Even your proposal ends up causing more headaches down the line. We've got our eye on this but trust me, we tried it the other way and it was a nightmare from which there was no waking.

We'll take a look at Liminal Mediator.

A huli jing with restoration can also just feed on whoever they like. This is not a solvable issue.

When Perception, Survival, and Sense Motive stop being Wis based, the kumiho will stop being Wis based. Additionally, Wisdom is the stat most often associated with animal cunning, helps the kumiho shake off effects that would end their killing spree (fear, mind control) and aids in the selection of targets and the tracking of fleeing victims. They're fine as Wis.

You talk about them getting more than one day per victim as if it is a problem. It is not, and was intended.

Sworn Secrecy, likewise, intended.

We'll look into the FCB thing.


That's it for now. Maybe more later on the other races. Hope I was mildly helpful.

Thank you for your feedback, my friend. Hopefully this addresses most of it.

[Powerdork]

Vital Core is undergoing some proposed wording revision.

The coreid suddenly ceasing to be a creature miiiight be problematic, maybe. What happens to spell effects on them when they're reduced to a core? Might it be better to consider them non-ambulatory creatures than objects? Does the core have a touch AC?

[Akadzjian]

The coreid suddenly ceasing to be a creature miiiight be problematic, maybe. What happens to spell effects on them when they're reduced to a core? Might it be better to consider them non-ambulatory creatures than objects? Does the core have a touch AC?

Well they're effectively dead at this point, so spell effects would cease. Beyond that - the AC is outright its AC in all forms - that's 10 + size modifier. It isn't moving at this point so there're no other variables.

[Shackel]

Well they're effectively dead at this point, so spell effects would cease. Beyond that - the AC is outright its AC in all forms - that's 10 + size modifier. It isn't moving at this point so there're no other variables.

The combination of becoming untargetable by anything that would protect a creature(such as, say, Mage Armor), losing all of your buffs and being irreversibly knocked out of action for 24 hours just for dropping to negatives(which isn't too uncommon for players) sounds a little too harsh. I feel like removing the inability to be targeted as a creature/losing all of your buffs or allowing a core to be healed until it reforms a body(even if it must be healed to 50 or even 100%) could be helpful towards quality of life as a coreid player.

I know I'd really hate managing to just barely survive that blow from an enemy... only to still be out of the session or more. At higher levels there's even the bizarre idea that, in a rush, it might be better to kill the coreid completely and revive them instead of wait 24 hours for them to come back.

[Akadzjian]

The combination of becoming untargetable by anything that would protect a creature(such as, say, Mage Armor), losing all of your buffs and being irreversibly knocked out of action for 24 hours just for dropping to negatives(which isn't too uncommon for players) sounds a little too harsh. I feel like removing the inability to be targeted as a creature/losing all of your buffs or allowing a core to be healed until it reforms a body(even if it must be healed to 50 or even 100%) could be helpful towards quality of life as a coreid player.

I know I'd really hate managing to just barely survive that blow from an enemy... only to still be out of the session or more. At higher levels there's even the bizarre idea that, in a rush, it might be better to kill the coreid completely and revive them instead of wait 24 hours for them to come back.
What about making them discorporate at negative Con? I'm more worried about them being perceived as "unkillable"

[Powerdork]

Well they're effectively dead at this point, so spell effects would cease.

The thing is, they're not dead. They still (ideally) have an above-0 Constitution and negative hit points that do not exceed their Constitution. They're by all definitions still alive, unless an effect says otherwise, which it doesn't. A living object is possible, and common: see trees. Do spells that target creatures just... end, when a coreid is knocked into its component parts?


Beyond that - the AC is outright its AC in all forms - that's 10 + size modifier. It isn't moving at this point so there're no other variables.


An object’s Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier (+4) + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC.


Just because an object isn't a creature doesn't mean it lacks ability scores. It just means it lacks Charisma and Wisdom. (Or at least, it did in 3.5. Pathfinder removed the rules about nonabilities.)

[Akadzjian]

Just because an object isn't a creature doesn't mean it lacks ability scores. It just means it lacks Charisma and Wisdom. (Or at least, it did in 3.5. Pathfinder removed the rules about nonabilities.) Huh. I'm sorry, apparently I need to brush up on eliminating my 3.5-isms. I remembered (immobile) objects having NO Dex score, not 0 Dex. My mistake. In that case, its AC is 7. I'll be addressing that now. Also, the coreid have gotten a pretty overall rewrite for the Vital Core racial trait as well as all three ARTs, if you'd care to peruse them?

[Shackel]

What about making them discorporate at negative Con? I'm more worried about them being perceived as "unkillable"

Disincorporate while maybe a 50% below max HP(or maybe 5xHD damage beyond negative Con) instant kill could work. I think the main problem is less whether or not your character is dead, and being taken out of action for 24-32 hours no matter what the situation. Allowing the core to be healed or repaired to a certain point before total restoration could at least allow for having that initial toughness if you get knocked into the negatives, even without disincorp. at -Con.

The main issue I see is that few races mechanically make certain plots more difficult to run. An example I'm currently in is one big night where everything is going wrong in a town; get taken out early as a coreid and... that's it, you're done for that entire mini-adventure. Adventures on a timeline or a rush leave the coreid in an awkward position as well for the same reason.

[Lord_Gareth]

Update on Coreid wording


Vital Core (Ex): Vital Core (Ex): A coreid's only vital point is the crystal core that contains their consciousness; they benefit from a 25% chance to negate critical hits and sneak attacks, which stacks with effects such as fortification. This core remains hidden and mobile through the coreid's form, and thus cannot be specifically targeted while the coreid has a body around it (such as by called shots). When the coreid dies their form dissembles into a pile and exposes their core, enabling it to be targeted. While in this state, the coreid is their core rather than a creature. The core is a diminutive object with 2 hit points per hit die of the coreid, AC 7, and 10 (+1/2 their level) hardness. The coreid reconstitutes a body after one day as long as their core has not been destroyed, regaining their full maximum hit point total (they still do not gain other resources, such as spells or power points) and becoming a living, mobile creature once more. If the core is destroyed, it may be used as the coreid's remains for spells such as resurrection and other effects which require or use the remains of a living creature.

This cleans up about 9001% of the problems since now you'd just be dead anyway; the ability has been transitioned into a slight post-death benefit, plus the psuedo-fortification.

[Extra Anchovies]

I ARISE, TO ADDRESS STUFF

THEY LIVE! Welcome back.

Metallic Form looks good, but I think there should be a minimum 1-day reconstruction time after discorporating. Throwing six chain shirts at your friend's core to rebuild them instantly is a pretty fun image, but I don't think it's the best for game balance :smalltongue:

Closest Imitation seems like it should also replace Flexible Frame.

A thing: the Ravid does not exist in Pathfinder. It seems like the Jyoti (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/jyoti) are the natives of the Positive Energy Plane. They also make for better possible ancestors for Ethumions; I'm not sure how a humanoid/ravid pairing would even work, given that the latter have no apparent means of reproduction :smallconfused:

[Lord_Gareth]

THEY LIVE! Welcome back.

Metallic Form looks good, but I think there should be a minimum 1-day reconstruction time after discorporating. Throwing six chain shirts at your friend's core to rebuild them instantly is a pretty fun image, but I don't think it's the best for game balance :smalltongue:

You do have a point.


Closest Imitation seems like it should also replace Flexible Frame.

Um. No? Its value ain't anywhere near that.


A thing: the Ravid does not exist in Pathfinder. It seems like the Jyoti (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/jyoti) are the natives of the Positive Energy Plane. They also make for better possible ancestors for Ethumions; I'm not sure how a humanoid/ravid pairing would even work, given that the latter have no apparent means of reproduction :smallconfused:

We're updating ravids, and they'll be included in the book. Jyoti are kinda lame as hell and also don't fit the ethumion fluff or abilities whatsoever.

[Extra Anchovies]

We're updating ravids, and they'll be included in the book. Jyoti are kinda lame as hell and also don't fit the ethumion fluff or abilities whatsoever.

Nice! Jyoti are pretty boring. I like the "imbues random objects with life" thing that the Ravids have going.

Regarding Flexible Frame, I might have been reading it wrong. As written, the second sentence is ambiguous on whether non-special size modifiers apply in all cases (e.g. attack rolls and armor class) or only to opposed checks. Putting "or a special size modifier" in parentheses would set it to only apply non-special size modifiers to opposed checks, which seems like what was intended.

[Lord_Gareth]

Nice! Jyoti are pretty boring. I like the "imbues random objects with life" thing that the Ravids have going.

Regarding Flexible Frame, I might have been reading it wrong. As written, the second sentence is ambiguous on whether non-special size modifiers apply in all cases (e.g. attack rolls and armor class) or only to opposed checks. Putting "or a special size modifier" in parentheses would set it to only apply non-special size modifiers to opposed checks, which seems like what was intended.

You're like an entire book too late on that one. Additionally, you'll note that the ability doesn't start "treat them a size smaller and then here's exceptions." It lays out specific cases in which they are a size smaller; your concern doesn't appear in the RAW.

[Extra Anchovies]

You're like an entire book too late on that one.

I don't really know what you mean by this :smallconfused: Care to explain?


Additionally, you'll note that the ability doesn't start "treat them a size smaller and then here's exceptions." It lays out specific cases in which they are a size smaller; your concern doesn't appear in the RAW.

"Coreids function in many ways as if they were one size smaller" doesn't seem to me to say much one way or the other about whether attack rolls and armor class are some of those "many ways".

The possible ambiguity is in "a size modifier or a special size modifier for an opposed check", specifically whether "for an opposed check" is attached to both "a size modifier" and "a special size modifier" (case A below), or if "for an opposed check" is only attached to "a special size modifier" (case B below). The surrounding text is strongly indicative that case B is intended, and I'm pretty sure that's also what you're saying in your post. There's also probably some rule of formal English grammar somewhere that you know, that I don't know, and that settles the ambiguity, in which case I must admit that your kung fu is stronger than my own. I am still concerned, though, that I won't be the only one to be incorrect or unsure of the text's precise effects. Parenthesizing "or a special size modifier", or cutting "or a special size modifier" down to "or special size modifier", would put it at a spot that I think is more immediately clear even if the current phrasing passes grammatical muster.


If they would be subject to a size modifier for an opposed check (such as Stealth), they are treated as being one size smaller if it is advantageous to them.
+
If they would be subject to a special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Stealth), they are treated as being one size smaller if it is advantageous to them.


If they would be subject to a size modifier, they are treated as being one size smaller if it is advantageous to them.
+
If they would be subject to a special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Stealth), they are treated as being one size smaller if it is advantageous to them.

Yes, I know this is absurdly pedantic. Us undead need to find some way to pass the time :smallbiggrin:

[Lord_Gareth]

I don't really know what you mean by this :smallconfused: Care to explain?

Flexible frame was Bloodforge 1.


"Coreids function in many ways as if they were one size smaller" doesn't seem to me to say much one way or the other about whether attack rolls and armor class are some of those "many ways".

The possible ambiguity is in "a size modifier or a special size modifier for an opposed check", specifically whether "for an opposed check" is attached to both "a size modifier" and "a special size modifier" (case A below), or if "for an opposed check" is only attached to "a special size modifier" (case B below). The surrounding text is strongly indicative that case B is intended, and I'm pretty sure that's also what you're saying in your post. There's also probably some rule of formal English grammar somewhere that you know, that I don't know, and that settles the ambiguity, in which case I must admit that your kung fu is stronger than my own. I am still concerned, though, that I won't be the only one to be incorrect or unsure of the text's precise effects. Parenthesizing "or a special size modifier", or cutting "or a special size modifier" down to "or special size modifier", would put it at a spot that I think is more immediately clear even if the current phrasing passes grammatical muster.

Yes, I know this is absurdly pedantic. Us undead need to find some way to pass the time :smallbiggrin:

It's an extremely tortured reading, yes. Reading the first sentence as rules-permissive is wrong in the first place (and you don't do it for Powerful Build either) but in any event the wording is set and won't be changing.

[Extra Anchovies]

The Eiremian's Inevitability alternate trait is pretty stronk - "prevent [you] from acting normally" is, as the ability description suggests, rather broad, so it's a free second chance on pretty much all negative save-or-x effects. Two ideas to make it a more balanced trade with The Terrible Peace:
1. An Eiremian has to wait one minute between Inevitability uses, just like they'd be waiting to reuse The Terrible Peace.
2. Instead of an immediate-action reroll at the same time as the failed save, Inevitability allows a second save one round after they fail a save against an effect that prevents them from acting normally, at no action cost.


Flexible frame was Bloodforge 1.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. For completeness's sake, are there any other traits among the Infusions races that inherit from Bloodforge Episode 1? Getting caught up in barely-relevant semantics is kind of our thing here in the d20 subforum, but it's good to know what bits of the playtest are immutable.


It's an extremely tortured reading, yes. Reading the first sentence as rules-permissive is wrong in the first place (and you don't do it for Powerful Build either) but in any event the wording is set and won't be changing.

Works for me.

Just for kicks, I took another look at the PF size rules and it seems like it all checks out anyway because "special size modifier" doesn't exist as a rules term in the context of applied checks. So I thought there was a RAW ambiguity under the outer shell of makes-perfect-sense, but digging deeper into the RAW turned up a hidden core of makes-sense-after-all. Ah, Pathfinder.

[Akadzjian]

Alright everyone,
New update to the Playtest. Biggest addition is the new Half-Dwarf race, with some minor wording fixes, but mainly the new race. Enjoy!

[Extra Anchovies]

Oooh, these half-dwarves look pretty fun. I like the variable ability penalty.

A question: is there a particular design goal with this race, some collection of human and dwarven traits that you think can be developed in a direction that isn't redundant with human or dwarf? Is the purpose effectively to have a more build-flexible dwarf, similar to how the half-elf is a more build-flexible elf?


Dwarves and humans do not easily produce offspring together: a mixed dwarven and human population can go centuries, even millennia, without seeing one, and in almost all cases the child is not viable. Thus, no half-dwarven culture exists; half-dwarves are simply products of the culture they are raised in, be it dwarven, human, or other.

The first of those two sentences gave me the initial impression that half-dwarves were not actually of mixed species because cross-breeds were essentially nonexistent, so I had a bit of a double-take when I got to the appearance section.
1. I think they should be more common - one almost-always-stillborn (or short-lived) child every few hundred or few thousand years is infrequent enough that half-dwarves pretty much don't exist. Shifting "centuries, even millennia" to "decades, even centuries" and "almost all cases" to "many cases" would make it more reasonable.
2. The second sentence should make it clearer that half-dwarves are members of the cultures they were raised in, products (in a biological sense) of one dwarven parent and one human parent.

Comprehensive Education is quite strong next to other abilities that add skills (or specifically Knowledge skills) to class lists. If you want to keep it at replacing 1 point of Hardy, maybe let them make Knowledge checks untrained and give a +1 racial bonus to any Knowledge skill they have 1 or more ranks in?

Innovative and Industrious both look fair as they are. I like the ability to choose up to two of the three Hardy-reducing traits. I think Comprehensive Education should definitely be renamed to stick with the alliteration - Intellectual, or perhaps Inquisitive?

Magic Resistant is kinda... not great. If it needs a standard action to be lowered, it should at least be 10+level so it has more than a snowball's chance of blocking hostile spells.

Stubborn is narrow enough that just having the blanket +2 from hardy is better for most builds. Expanding it to all enchantments and all telepathy would put it in a good spot, I'd say.

Surface Survivalist seems kinda meh, outside of specifically wasteland- or frostfell-oriented campaigns. Adding low-light vision to the existing benefits would make it more worth taking in a temperate or wide-ranging game.

[khadgar567]

okay small yes or no question is coreid created for starfinder then released for pathfinder to gouge the interest for further supplement for starfinder

[Powerdork]

When it comes to atstreidi and sunder, what's the deal? Does their basic armor shell have hardness/hit points per inch of thickness? Does the armor/shell they use not count as worn armor for the purposes of sunder combat maneuvers and other such effects? Does a sunder just go through to their HP?


Also: When it comes to the document outline, half-dwarf is in a different header style than all the rest, and is less easily found as a result. (As someone who relies heavily on bookmarks, I hope the end product has those in order as well as this does.)

Inconsistency: Coreid lacks the psionic subtype in its entry, while half-dwarf possesses said subtype in its type entry.

[Knight Magenta]

The fox-shape-as-natural-form is what I've been looking for for a long time! I am pretty psyched for that!

[Prime32]

With all the talk of peace and stillness in their description, it seems odd that Eireimians don't have a favored class bonus for Monk. I think you could easily build a whole racial archetype around them, with things like a Stunning Fist variant that bypasses immunities, or the ability to project an Aura of Calm by expending ki.
You could make an argument for Mediums as well, that their "emptiness" makes it easier for them to contain other spirits, and as a Cha-based class they'd appreciate it.

Ethumions already make great Vitalists even without a favored class bonus, but "+1 power point" would be helpful for keeping up with races that have both +Wis and Psionic Aptitude (+1pp/level is the equivalent of +4 Wis worth of bonus pp). As "flashy" classes, bonuses for Swashbucklers and Vigilantes could also be fitting.

[Powerdork]

We completely overlooked that. I don't think we discussed it in internals. I'll bring it up and get back to you ASAP.
OK, double-checked, to quote directly: "Atstreidi are psionic, so they can take the feat like anyone else. If they use inertial armor, it overlaps with their existing armor bonus, just like anyone else with one."


It was actually about two separate concerns: Atstreidi (addressed in source) and Psionic Awakening (which calls for the psionic subtype in its prerequisites, but also requires you to be a psionic creature to even think about taking it, and even if you got it as a bonus feat: you now have the psionic subtype if you didn't before, congratulations; that prerequisite is worthless except in the weird cases where an ability grants you a feat that calls for 'psionic subtype' in its prerequisites, which is rare due to the psionic feat tag being shorthand for that, and oh I've posted too many words).


Atstreidi

Thanks! Is there a plan to act on the discussion that followed the source post (re: natural armor etc.)? I missed practically everything there.

[digiman619]

Half-Dwarves? Now all that's left is the Half-Gnome and the Half-Halfling to allow for maximum Human shaggery.

[khadgar567]

Half-Dwarves? Now all that's left is the Half-Gnome and the Half-Halfling to allow for maximum Human shaggery.
we need hybrid race rules for extreme creations

[Powerdork]

In addition to my previous post, another question has come up for a game I'm building for: Does an atstreidi have a 'nonhumanoid form' for the purposes of the Form Figure heritage feat in the Very Serious Gaming Supplement* April Augmented 2016 (which allows an ooze such as the atstreidi to change shape into a gel biped)?

* Exceedingly serious, from the look of it, as the Medic playtest has to work around the Ambu-Lancer name.

[Thealtruistorc]

WOOHOO! A half-dwarf! The conversion of dark sun races is now one step closer to completion (Dray seem to be the only ones without an equivalent).

Also, I noticed how many great variants you have for the Tengu, and I was wondering if you have plans to do similar things with some other races. Will we be getting a bunch of arthropod variants for the Trox or Dromite? Anomalocaris, Stag Beetle, and Tardigrade races would make my day. What about Forgeborn variants that utilize technology in new ways? With Starfinder on the way, I could envision a few of those adding quite a bit of flair to the setting.

[Prime32]

Also, I noticed how many great variants you have for the Tengu, and I was wondering if you have plans to do similar things with some other races. Will we be getting a bunch of arthropod variants for the Trox or Dromite? Anomalocaris, Stag Beetle, and Tardigrade races would make my day. What about Forgeborn variants that utilize technology in new ways? With Starfinder on the way, I could envision a few of those adding quite a bit of flair to the setting.My vote there would be to stick with the "hive" theme and create a primordial race of dromites that are divided into worker/soldier/queen/etc. subtypes, each corresponding to one of the modern dromites' elements (doesn't have to be subraces; racial paragon classes could also work if, say, you want queens to have wings but not at lv1).

And don't make a stag beetle race unless you make a rhino beetle race to go with it (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JapaneseBeetleBrothers). :smalltongue:

[MilleniaAntares]

In addition to my previous post, another question has come up for a game I'm building for: Does an atstreidi have a 'nonhumanoid form' for the purposes of the Form Figure heritage feat in the Very Serious Gaming Supplement* April Augmented 2016 (which allows an ooze such as the atstreidi to change shape into a gel biped)?

* Exceedingly serious, from the look of it, as the Medic playtest has to work around the Ambu-Lancer name.
I think the astreidi, despite their unique nature/anatomy, still count as a humanoid form, given that they do not lack any of the typical limbs (head, two arms, two legs) and item slots.

[Mehangel]

I think the astreidi, despite their unique nature/anatomy, still count as a humanoid form, given that they do not lack any of the typical limbs (head, two arms, two legs) and item slots.

Unless... the astreidi took up residence in barding for obscure beasts.

[Powerdork]

In addition to my previous two posts, another question arises: How much damage does an 8th-level ethumion guru take when she heals someone else for the full amount that a martyr's toga (with 3 essence invested) can heal?


As a standard action, the veilweaver may heal up to 5 points of damage an ally has taken by touching them and taking that much damage himself.
Essence: For each point of essence invested in this ability, the amount of damage that can be shifted is increased by 5.

Whenever an ethumion uses a spell, power, item, or other magical, psionic, or supernatural effect that heals another creature, she heals them for a number of additional hit points equal to her character level.

A similar situation arises when an 8th-level ethumion wilder manifests empathic transfer (also "healing" per the first line, and the augment). If she removes 10 damage, giving the target an additional 8 hit points via Wellspring of Life, does she pay 5 hit points for it, or 9?

The effect you're stated to perform with each ability is 'heal', so it is very definitely healing, thus increased by Wellspring of Life, but does the extra healing come from Wellspring of Life, or from the base effect (forcing the ethumion to pay for it the same way that she pays for the rest of the healing)?

[Milo v3]

Half-Dwarves seem abit too generic for bloodforge.

Also, the Gamla section has a copy-paste error saying they count as Suqur.

[Mithril Leaf]

Please keep the Half-Dwarves, I love them. I do have to agree though that their exceptional uncommonness seems somewhat excessive. What if two players in total want to play Half-Dwarves? I recognize fluff is mutable, but they don't reasonable to play as for general usage.

[Air0r]

Any new developments?

[Forrestfire]

Any new developments?

Actually, yes! :smallbiggrin:

While this project, and many others, have been basically hard-stopped due to a couple things (mostly author business), we've received a lot of feedback, and Bloodforge Infusions 1 is this month (January)'s patreon release. Shortly after that releases, we'll be updating the playtest new material, as the Ethumion, Atsreidi, and Eiremian leave the playtest and hit the pdfs.

We're also working on finalizing an errata'd, revised Bloodforge pdf—this was delayed massively by us losing the raw files for the layout a while back, but I've worked hard recently to get the layout rebuilt from scratch, including our snazzy new pdf designs, updates in response to feedback, and so many bookmarks.

We're hoping to get that out sooner than BFI 1, so expect that soon!

[Nyaa]

Kumiho's Tooth and Nail grants three primary natural attacks at level 1?

[Kaidinah]

The jaguar catfolk have been updated! They are no longer mobile grapplers, but agile dancers. This was to increase their versatility and hopefully open them up to non grappler builds. If you really wanted a catfolk grappler though, the new Tearing Grip feat in the feat section should be up your alley.

[weckar]

Love the stuff, hate the title. The combination of 'forge' and 'infusion', maybe from a 3.5 background, rings way too much like crafting to me. Like, the Artificer, specifically. You never want a title to be unintentionally misleading, eh?

[Nyaa]

Is there a reason huli jing are so much better than kumiho at being immortal, even not considering restoration and draining friendlies? Creatures generally have more con score than hearts and livers, and missing point or two of con is way less noticeable than missing heart.

[torrasque666]

So are the other three races coming in another publication or...

[Lord_Gareth]

So are the other three races coming in another publication or...

We're working on getting it around, but the holidays are the great reaper of free time.

[torrasque666]

We're working on getting it around, but the holidays are the great reaper of free time.
Ok. I was just worried that they had been axed, and I really like the Coreid.

[thecrimsondawn]

W...what? How did I not know about this playtest? :O
I follow like every DSP playtest the moment I see it! lol

[Manyasone]

Ok. I was just worried that they had been axed, and I really like the Coreid.

Seconded (need 10 characters)

[EldritchWeaver]

Reading through the newest PDF, I found two issues:


Yokai kitsune reach adulthood at 50 years of age, and use the the table on page X for their aging effects, rather than aging like a normal kitsune.


Page X should point to a specific page. Also the half-blood subtypes aren't in alphabetical order.

[EarthSeraphEdna]

How does the lynx catfolk not break skill checks out of combat? Dreamscarred Press was warned about this, and nobody listened.

Similarly, how is the bearded vulture tengu not unreasonably durable and an ideal choice for clerics and shamans? Dreamscarred Press was also warned about this, and again, nobody listened. This racial AC and saving throw bonus beats out halflings, that is for sure.

Even worse, here (https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/51780135/#51785087), we have a statement that inertial armor would be removed from the valid list of powers for Psionic Awakening. And yet, in the final release, inertial armor is still in the list for Psionic Awakening. A 9th-level character with an unarmored AC bonus takes this feat, and suddenly, they can manifest Inertial Armor three times per day for a +8 armor bonus to AC each time.

It is as if Dreamscarred Press completely ignored the playtest feedback for Bloodforge: Infusions, which is ironic, given that in the old post linked above, they also said:

DSP aims to be responsive to community feedback.

[torrasque666]

Was there some sort of release announcement that I missed or are you making these claims based off of the Playtest Document, which may very well be altered before release?

[Alea]

It is as if Dreamscarred Press completely ignored the playtest feedback for Bloodforge: Infusions, which is ironic, given that in the old post linked above, they also said:
Being “responsive to feedback” is not the same thing as “bowing to each and every whim of a one EarthSeraphEdna in particular.” You are allowed to disagree with the design decisions they made, but acting like your preference on the matter is the only possible true and correct decision and that failure to adhere to that is a failure to respond to feedback is simply an ineffective way to persuade anyone you are correct, and a rather bad look for you, as well.

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Being “responsive to feedback” is not the same thing as “bowing to each and every whim of a one EarthSeraphEdna in particular.” You are allowed to disagree with the design decisions they made, but acting like your preference on the matter is the only possible true and correct decision and that failure to adhere to that is a failure to respond to feedback is simply an ineffective way to persuade anyone you are correct, and a rather bad look for you, as well.
Please elaborate on how keeping the lynx's rerolls, the bearded vulture's AC and saving throw bonuses, and Psionic Awakening's inertial armor are good moves.

[torrasque666]

Please elaborate on how keeping the lynx's rerolls, the bearded vulture's AC and saving throw bonuses, and Psionic Awakening's inertial armor are good moves.
They may be, they may not be. The point is that just because you disagree with the moves they made, doesn't mean that they aren't responsive to the community. And again, where do you see that this is the final product? If they've released a PDF/Book, I want to know. If they haven't, its still in playtest (or in editing) and may well change, so your claims are unfounded.

[AlienFromBeyond]

And again, where do you see that this is the final product? If they've released a PDF/Book, I want to know.
I'm pretty sure it was released to their patreon backers/patrons.

[Air0r]

I'm pretty sure it was released to their patreon backers/patrons.

Can confirm. I have the PDF.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Me too. Beyond thinking that the bearded vulture ability was a tad overtuned, I didn't actually notice those other problems; I'm not too familiar with Psionics, and I thought the lynx's foresight was quite novel, and didn't realize the implications on skill checks. I could see it only working on standard actions or shorter, but I'd have to refresh myself on what exactly that encompasses.

[upho]

FWIW, I agree the benefit of inertial armor is considerably greater for certain classes than any other Psionic Awakening option is for any other class, and it should therefore probably not remain an option. However, one should also consider that in a game where Psionic Awakening is an option, PCs with levels in those classes can most likely also buy a dorje with 50 ML 1 manifestations of inertial armor for a mere 750 gp, though they would typically need a sufficient UMD bonus as well to use such a dorje themselves.

I'm less convinced about the overpowered nature of the bearded vulture's Luck of Kings trait. Yes, a +2 racial bonus to both all saves and AC is a very powerful racial trait, but is it inherently more powerful than say the elves' oracle FCO (combined with for example a revelation granting an AC), the humans' sorcerer FCO, or the tiger catfolk's Large size? I don't think so.

Finally, I don't see how the Lynx's Foresight trait would somehow "break skill checks out of combat". Especially when considering the consequences of a single such skill check result can be pretty significant. AFAICT, this actually makes Foresight a great addition to the game, as it allows PCs to make such rolls less dependent on the fluke nature of one roll and/or whether a party member has happened to make sufficient investments into the related skill.


Being “responsive to feedback” is not the same thing as “bowing to each and every whim of a one EarthSeraphEdna in particular.” You are allowed to disagree with the design decisions they made, but acting like your preference on the matter is the only possible true and correct decision and that failure to adhere to that is a failure to respond to feedback is simply an ineffective way to persuade anyone you are correct, and a rather bad look for you, as well.I believe EarthSeraphEdna primarily refers to the authors' failure to do what they actually said they would; to remove inertial armor as a Psionic Awakening option. Which isn't exactly the same thing as “bowing to each and every whim of a one EarthSeraphEdna in particular.”

Though I don't think that somehow makes it a good idea to present the critique in an abrasive manner.