Armored Monks: Kill Me if You Can

[PeteNutButter]

Rarely do you see a monk in armor, because it really gimps the character. Just putting on armor or using a non-monk weapon makes monks lose the following:
-Wis to AC
-Unarmed damage bonus
-Movement Bonus
-Martial Arts free bonus unarmed strike
-Dex for unarmed strikes

That's a lot to lose, so why bother?
What you don't lose are ki points and the various ways to spend them. So even in full plate with a greatsword in hands you can as a bonus action, dash, disengage, dodge, and make two unarmed strikes. To abuse this you'd have to either use the high AC in conjunction with the dodge spam, or use weapons/modifiers not balanced for two bonus attacks.

These builds are forced to use str for unarmed strikes so stats are going to look something like this example for variant human:
str 15+1 racial
dex 13+1 racial
con 14
int 9
wis 13
cha 8

The Man Monk approach is a barb/monk(5/4?) that uses str and rage, with GWM. With both tavern brawler and GWM his two attacks plus rage plus two punches could deal considerable damage. But unless he does his unarmed strikes with his manhood, which is clearly both heavy and two-handed, he won't be able to use GWM for his unarmed strikes. Meaning his two punches are probably less damage than one bonus action attack from something else such as PM. (1 or 1d4(with tavern brawler)+rage+str)x2 < 1d4+rage+str+10 Although it does benefit from being able to be split up and not suffering from -5 to hit. The man monk benefits from both reckless attack and bonus action dodge, meaning he can choose whether foes have adv disadv or wash when attacking him. That with rage resistance makes the Man Monk very hard to kill.

The Woods Monk approach, ranger/monk is similar as you can use hunter's mark in place of rage. Since you get a fighting style, using a shield and medium armor can get an early game AC around 19(20 once you get halfplate). That 19 AC is something a normal point buy monk won't see until level 12 or magic items. If you go straight for it, avoiding extra attack at level 5 via ranger 2/monk 2 you could put out 1d8+1d6+3 longsword, and (1d6+4)x2 kicks for 27 average damage at level 4, solid for a tank. I'd recommend sentinel feat since AC alone doesn't make a tank. Sentinel to hold down a single BB and bonus action dodge when needed make you a pretty pesky "monk".

The Clanky Monk, fighter/monk, suffers the most on the offensive front, but can get the highest AC with heavy armor. If you're REALLY heavy on AC Eldritch Knight for shield spell. BM fighter would probably be more balanced, potentially making 5 attacks a round at level fighter 11/monk 2. Use Maneuvers on all 5 attacks for nova.

Did someone say NOVA? The Smite Monk, paladin/monk isn't very feasible at low levels or with point buy, but boy can it get crazy at high level. Requiring a 2nd "mental stat" of 13 makes the point buy tight around 14, 13, 13, 8, 13, 13. Bumping Con and str, and another str(to 16) via tavern brawler probably. As early as level 7, he could make 4 attacks a round dealing (2d6+4+3d8)x2 and (1d4+2d8+4)x2 for 76 average damage. Once satisfied with ki pool, he should move into a full caster such as cleric or sorcerer to pad smite pool. For the sake of fun a paladin 6/monk 4/sorcerer 10 could potentially deal (2d6+15+5d8)x3 via haste + (1d4+5d8+5)x2 = 193.5 average damage without any magic items. I don't think Improved Divine Smite would work since it specifically says melee weapon not melee weapon attack.


-Tavern brawler is ok as a starting feat but its far from good. Hopefully Volo's guide will give us an AL legal race that has an unarmed strike damage boost and some str. Or we just deal with punching for 1+MODS.
-I didn't include light armor classes because its really no better than the +3 starting wisdom from normal monk.
-All these builds will struggle if they don't have much ki. Depending on short rest frequency in your game 4 ki per short rest might seem low. I'd be caustious going more than 4 monk levels though, because 5th level monk is pretty weak with the characters' low wisdom scores for stunning strike, and inability to benefit from the 1d6 damage boost so long as you can get extra attack elsewhere.

[Battlebooze]

But unless he does his unarmed strikes with his manhood, which is clearly both heavy and two-handed, he won't be able to use GWM for his unarmed strikes.

Ohhhh my....

Well, the ladies will certain be impressed with this warrior. Just keep away from the Cactus monsters, those spine would really hurt.

[JNAProductions]

Okay, this thread is great for that alone. No comment on how good the op-fu is (seems fun, though) but that joke? That's a good-un.

[RickAllison]

Long Death Monk. Potentially go Barbarian and be the ultimate tank, resisting damage, making enemies all around afraid, and being nigh-unkillable. Or go Fighter and otherwise manipulate the field with BM maneuvers. Or be a cleric of Kelemvor or the like and be unappeasable Death itself. Nothing in the Long Death archetype requires or is reliant on the parts that are banned by armor.

[PeteNutButter]

Potentially go Barbarian and be the ultimate tank, resisting damage, making enemies all around afraid, and being nigh-unkillable. Or go Fighter and otherwise manipulate the field with BM maneuvers. Or be a cleric of Kelemvor or the like and be unappeasable Death itself. Nothing in the Long Death archetype requires or is reliant on the parts that are banned by armor.

Yes! I forgot to mention Long death would be best for most of these builds. Open handed would be tempting but wisdom is too low to make the saves decent at all.

[JellyPooga]

In the long game five levels of Rogue, for Uncanny Dodge on top of any other defences, could be entertaining as part of a strictly "kill me if you can" build. 3d6 Sneak Attack, Cunning Action and Expertise, not to mention whatever Archetype bonus you choose, are just a bonus.

Monk (4)/Paladin (11)/Rogue(Swashbuckler) (5) might be an interesting build from a synergistic point of view.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What you don't lose are ki points and the various ways to spend them. So even in full plate with a greatsword in hands you can as a bonus action, dash, disengage, dodge, and make two unarmed strikes. To abuse this you'd have to either use the high AC in conjunction with the dodge spam, or use weapons/modifiers not balanced for two bonus attacks.
Ohh, that is interesting, nice catch. You'll want plenty of Monk levels to pay for said spam, though-- at least a half dozen, I'd say, enough to use two or three points a fight.

[Giant2005]

Yes! I forgot to mention Long death would be best for most of these builds. Open handed would be tempting but wisdom is too low to make the saves decent at all.

Sun Soul is pretty good too.
You can use Radiant Sun Bolt (and its version of Flurry) while armored, and unlike FoB, its version of Flurry does full Monk damage while armored (eventually scaling up to d10). It is a good way for Dex-based Fighters and such to gain an equipment-free ranged attack through dipping (much like the Pally does with Eldritch Blast).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sun Soul is pretty good too.
You can use Radiant Sun Bolt (and its version of Flurry) while armored, and unlike FoB, its version of Flurry does full Monk damage while armored (eventually scaling up to d10). It is a good way for Dex-based Fighters and such to gain an equipment-free ranged attack through dipping (much like the Pally does with Eldritch Blast).
I was just looking at this, trying to make it work, and I really can't. You need a lot of Monk to make it damaging (damage die scales with Monk level, you need ki to shoot more than once, and the only other applicable boost is Hex/Hunter's Mark), and you need a lot of Dex to make it effective, so there's really no point in armor, other than maybe saving some Wisdom-- except for save DCs on the higher-level abilities.

[PeteNutButter]

I saw that the sun soul allowed scaling of damage while armored but I couldn't really think of a reason for it. Dex fighters could totally use it. Good thinking!

As for point pool, it greatly varies from campaign and GM but AL usually allows for a short rest between most encounters, except maybe one. 4/5 points IMO is sufficient for a monk dip to have enough to use one a round.

[Giant2005]

I was just looking at this, trying to make it work, and I really can't. You need a lot of Monk to make it damaging (damage die scales with Monk level, you need ki to shoot more than once, and the only other applicable boost is Hex/Hunter's Mark), and you need a lot of Dex to make it effective, so there's really no point in armor, other than maybe saving some Wisdom-- except for save DCs on the higher-level abilities.

That is a fair point. Somehow I was thinking of it scaling with only a dip (like Cantrips do), but you are quite right.

[PeteNutButter]

[redacted] derp

[Grod_The_Giant]

For one the damage die does not scale with monk level if you are wearing armor. It is set at 1 unless you are a race that gives a boost or have tavern brawler.
Two, you cannot use dex for punches while wearing armor. So you need str.
Three, the point in armor is really a boost in AC ~3 points early game and the option to have other stats higher instead.
Four is to use non monk weapons. The level 20 smite monk in my example is using GWM. Monks cannot use GWM.
Five the on hit effects of having 1 more attack, most notably the smite monk again (which I would never play because it's high level effective only), that's more damage than a normal smite build could ever do, due to that 1 more attack that can smite.
The only real reason to take monk high than 2 is for more ki. As I said the ki pool of 4/5 should be enough for a single fight. If you can't short rest often it becomes worse.

It's never going to be amazing tier 1 but it isn't at all gimped.
I was talking specifically about Sun Soul-- as I mentioned earlier, I think the general idea is sound.

[PeteNutButter]

I was just looking at this, trying to make it work, and I really can't. You need a lot of Monk to make it damaging (damage die scales with Monk level, you need ki to shoot more than once, and the only other applicable boost is Hex/Hunter's Mark), and you need a lot of Dex to make it effective, so there's really no point in armor, other than maybe saving some Wisdom-- except for save DCs on the higher-level abilities.

Ah well yeah it's still not bad as a secondary for a dex fighter if you have a GM who likes foes w a lot of resistance to nonmagical weapons.

But as not to derail this thread... Someone play an armored monk and post on this forum how it goes. :smallbiggrin:

[RulesJD]

The only thing you'd gain from Armored Monk, that couldn't be gotten way, way easier through other means, is access to Stunning Strike with any weapon.

[PeteNutButter]

The only thing you'd gain from Armored Monk, that couldn't be gotten way, way easier through other means, is access to Stunning Strike with any weapon.

Good point, although I feel the need to clarify, any melee weapon. Stunning people with a bow shot would be too cool.

[Foxhound438]

I was just looking at this, trying to make it work, and I really can't. You need a lot of Monk to make it damaging (damage die scales with Monk level, you need ki to shoot more than once, and the only other applicable boost is Hex/Hunter's Mark), and you need a lot of Dex to make it effective, so there's really no point in armor, other than maybe saving some Wisdom-- except for save DCs on the higher-level abilities.

hunter's mark doesn't boost spell attacks :(

Anyways, to the OP, I've considered doing a Strength based monk that just uses a greatsword. There's the one sage advice quote that I'm not going to bother citing in reference to the bonus action shield bash from shield master, and that would work in a similar way here. Start without it equipped (ie slung over your back), attack action -> respond with flurry, get the two attacks from that with monk damage die -> item interaction equip sword -> resolve attack action with sword. Next turn repeat in the opposite order: action attacks -> sling sword -> flurry with monk die.

By the way, Martial Arts is literally the only monk feature turned off while using a non-monk weapon, meaning if you do this without armor, you still get unarmored defense, unarmored movement, deflect, slow fall, tradition features...

Only problem is it's kind of hard to manage in point buy. With human (yes, normal featless type), you can get a stat line something like 15/14/14/10/16/9. Starting AC of 15 would be rough, but not entirely unfeasible. Maybe dip cleric for shield of faith, and take a domain with a nice defensive boost like light.

If you have an easy means of getting gauntlets of ogre strength this is made a lot easier. Or a good option if you happen across a pair.

[PeteNutButter]

hunter's mark doesn't boost spell attacks :(

Anyways, to the OP, I've considered doing a Strength based monk that just uses a greatsword. There's the one sage advice quote that I'm not going to bother citing in reference to the bonus action shield bash from shield master, and that would work in a similar way here. Start without it equipped (ie slung over your back), attack action -> respond with flurry, get the two attacks from that with monk damage die -> item interaction equip sword -> resolve attack action with sword. Next turn repeat in the opposite order: action attacks -> sling sword -> flurry with monk die.

By the way, Martial Arts is literally the only monk feature turned off while using a non-monk weapon, meaning if you do this without armor, you still get unarmored defense, unarmored movement, deflect, slow fall, tradition features...

Only problem is it's kind of hard to manage in point buy. With human (yes, normal featless type), you can get a stat line something like 15/14/14/10/16/9, or maybe switch con and dex for more AC and less HP. Starting AC of 15 would be rough, but not entirely unfeasible. Maybe dip cleric for shield of faith, and take a domain with a nice defensive boost like light.

That's pretty cool. Basically you trade the ac/point buy ease from armor for the ability to juggle weapons and still get your unarmed damage die up.
As a note, slow fall, deflect missles, and most(all) path features are not stopped by armor.

You could go archer w SS, make two shots stow the bow, take a step forward and punch em twice. That'd be (1d8+15)x2 +(1d6+5)x2, plus another 4d6 if you hunter's marked the round before, average damage of 76, and still be pure dex/wisdom. Then you'll have issues of OA, or disadvantage if you want to do it again, because you are in melee range, unless you can open hand push them back.

[Foxhound438]

That's pretty cool. Basically you trade the ac/point buy ease from armor for the ability to juggle weapons and still get your unarmed damage die up.
As a note, slow fall, deflect missles, and most(all) path features are not stopped by armor.

You could go archer w SS, make two shots stow the bow, take a step forward and punch em twice. That'd be (1d8+15)x2 +(1d6+5)x2, plus another 4d6 if you hunter's marked the round before, average damage of 76, and still be pure dex/wisdom. Then you'll have issues of OA, or disadvantage if you want to do it again, because you are in melee range, unless you can open hand push them back.

mobile would work fine for your build there.

[imaginary]

That's pretty cool. Basically you trade the ac/point buy ease from armor for the ability to juggle weapons and still get your unarmed damage die up.
As a note, slow fall, deflect missles, and most(all) path features are not stopped by armor.

You could go archer w SS, make two shots stow the bow, take a step forward and punch em twice. That'd be (1d8+15)x2 +(1d6+5)x2, plus another 4d6 if you hunter's marked the round before, average damage of 76, and still be pure dex/wisdom. Then you'll have issues of OA, or disadvantage if you want to do it again, because you are in melee range, unless you can open hand push them back.

Can't you use kicks instead of punches for unarmed attacks? Some Martial arts are all about using your legs.

[PeteNutButter]

Can't you use kicks instead of punches for unarmed attacks? Some Martial arts are all about using your legs.

Yes but as long as you are wielding non-monk weapons it turns off some of your features.

[Specter]

These all strike me as very flavorful, and kudos for that, but it doesn't seem to be of much use. Personally I believe a Monk with a Barbarian dip works great to reduce damage when you do get hit. Plus, you get to be Bane from Batman.

[Stealthscout]

I could see multiclassing as a type of trap here. Maybe play around with an alternate: hairy monk (name under development):

Mountain dwarf, using half plate and maul (from race), all long death monk.

You would play much like a fighter-type with an oriental theme. Use your ki for dodging mostly or for the occasional FoB to take out an enemy quickly through a couple quick booted kicks. Since you are all monk you can rely on more ki than the other builds and later on can resist death better than anyone. The fear affect works well with a more samurai mindset. He is no more MAD than any other fighter out there and can even do well at wrestling when needed.

[PeteNutButter]

I could see multiclassing as a type of trap here. Maybe play around with an alternate: hairy monk (name under development):

Mountain dwarf, using half plate and maul (from race), all long death monk.

You would play much like a fighter-type with an oriental theme. Use your ki for dodging mostly or for the occasional FoB to take out an enemy quickly through a couple quick booted kicks. Since you are all monk you can rely on more ki than the other builds and later on can resist death better than anyone. The fear affect works well with a more samurai mindset. He is no more MAD than any other fighter out there and can even do well at wrestling when needed.

That's a neat idea, could go 16, 14, 16, 9, 13, 8 to start.

Racial doesn't give maul though, just warhammer. There are a few dead features like the rest of the builds. Long death works well though.

I don't know about MCing being a trap though. A single level in fighter/barb could still definitely help the hairy monk.

[PeteNutButter]

Necroing my own thread here a bit. In response to my hopeful predictions, volo has provided us with a couple options here.

Lizardfolk is a cool option for an armored monk. They lack a str bonus, which is big hit, but also lack dex. They come with a 1d6 unarmed strike and a sort of 1 extra ki with the ability to make one bonus action bite per short rest.

Putting all points into str, con, and wisdom. Then your first ASI in to str and con gives you a 16, 8, 18, 8, 16, 8. Solid stat array for a fighter 1/monk x. By level 6 you could swing your greatsword twice and make two bites. OR if you prefer defense, spam bonus action dodge with a 21 AC via plate shield and def style. Backing it all up is an excess of hps via the 18 con. For the damage route, you might need to go fighter 6 first to pick up the ASI and GWM since you are behind on str. All in all it looks fun. I just want to bite someone and it stun them...

[Grod_The_Giant]

Necroing my own thread here a bit. In response to my hopeful predictions, volo has provided us with a couple options here.

Lizardfolk is a cool option for an armored monk. They lack a str bonus, which is big hit, but also lack dex. They come with a 1d6 unarmed strike and a sort of 1 extra ki with the ability to make one bonus action bite per short rest.

Putting all points into str, con, and wisdom. Then your first ASI in to str and con gives you a 16, 8, 18, 8, 16, 8. Solid stat array for a fighter 1/monk x. By level 6 you could swing your greatsword twice and make two bites. OR if you prefer defense, spam bonus action dodge with a 21 AC via plate shield and def style. Backing it all up is an excess of hps via the 18 con. For the damage route, you might need to go fighter 6 first to pick up the ASI and GWM since you are behind on str. All in all it looks fun. I just want to bite someone and it stun them...
That's pretty good, actually. Losing the Dex-to-hit isn't a problem if you're going for heavy armor/Str, but the drastic drop-off in unarmed damage is. 1d6 unarmed strikes are more than good enough to last you the game.

...I kind of want to play this build, now. Probably go Open Hand to make the most of my flurries.