Is dealing nonlethal damage ever a valid build?

[Zhentarim]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=924794

I have this character, and though she could have used a gandasa instead if a sap (police baton), I think nonlethal may be useful in some circumstances. Am I mistaken?

[LastOblivion]

(Note: My knowledge is based on 3.5 so I'm not sure if this all applies.)

I find that non lethal is best used for ruining the plans of DM. A bit of non-lethal mixed into a fight allows to capture just about any enemy alive. From there you gain interrogate them for information, give them to the authorities for a reward (or slave trader depending on the part) or use them hostages against your enemies.

The biggest weakness of non-lethal is that some enemies can be outright immune to it, such as Constructs and Undead. the second weakness is that healing will also restore an amount of non lethal equal to the lethal damage healed.

As long as you keep a lethal weapon on hand to deal with immune opponents then non-lethal is a great option. Just make sure you DM understands the extend of what you can do with captured enemies. If you DM likes railroading and hates his players being creative then might be in for a rough time.

[Âmesang]

I've contemplated the creation of a +5 merciful magical beasts bane greatsword of collision, the "Tarrasque Killer." :smalltongue:

[Zhentarim]

(Note: My knowledge is based on 3.5 so I'm not sure if this all applies.)

I find that non lethal is best used for ruining the plans of DM. A bit of non-lethal mixed into a fight allows to capture just about any enemy alive. From there you gain interrogate them for information, give them to the authorities for a reward (or slave trader depending on the part) or use them hostages against your enemies.

The biggest weakness of non-lethal is that some enemies can be outright immune to it, such as Constructs and Undead. the second weakness is that healing will also restore an amount of non lethal equal to the lethal damage healed.

As long as you keep a lethal weapon on hand to deal with immune opponents then non-lethal is a great option. Just make sure you DM understands the extend of what you can do with captured enemies. If you DM likes railroading and hates his players being creative then might be in for a rough time.
Oh, when my character bloodrages, she can drop her shield and police baton to gain two claw attacks and a bit attack that can be used for 1d6+5 damage each with +6 to hit each. So lethal isn't a problem so long as I haven't used my 7 rounds of bloodrage per day. (or 9 rounds once I reach level 2)

[Milo v3]

Akashic Mysteries has a class actually based around dealing non-lethal damage so it can definitely be useful in my experience, it's just abit sucky that most non-lethal weapons are pretty weak (though the Akashic Mysteries class had a way around it).

[Big Fau]

Two things: Lethal damage deals an equal amount of nonlethal damage. 2: The best option for nonlethal damage is in 3.5 Eberron (Dragonmarked has a really good PrC for it).

[Milo v3]

Two things: Lethal damage deals an equal amount of nonlethal damage. 2: The best option for nonlethal damage is in 3.5 Eberron (Dragonmarked has a really good PrC for it).
Where are you getting 1 from? Nothing in the rules say that at all.... :smallconfused:

[LastOblivion]

Oh, when my character bloodrages, she can drop her shield and police baton to gain two claw attacks and a bit attack that can be used for 1d6+5 damage each with +6 to hit each. So lethal isn't a problem so long as I haven't used my 7 rounds of bloodrage per day. (or 9 rounds once I reach level 2)

Then your good to go, mix in some non-lethal blows to the skull then take them down once you have reached a safe buffer.


Two things: Lethal damage deals an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

Is that an obscure pathfinder thing? Since that would mean that you only have to deal half your target's hit-points in damage to knock them unconscious.


Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.

-From the SRD

Meaning if Thug 1 has a 10 hit-points remaining of his base hit-points of 30, and is then Hit for 11 Non-lethal damage he falls unconscious.

[Big Fau]

Where are you getting 1 from? Nothing in the rules say that at all.... :smallconfused:

It's an extrapolation of the rules:


Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points

Dealing HP damage deals an "equal amount" of nonlethal damage.

[Milo v3]

It's an extrapolation of the rules:



Dealing HP damage deals an "equal amount" of nonlethal damage.

I have no idea how your interpreting that section of the rules to mean HP damage deals an equal amount of non-lethal damage, it's saying what happens to you when you've accumulated a certain quantity of non-lethal damage....

But regardless the full quote is:

Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage: You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage: You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

So you can see that lethal damage does not deal non-lethal damage.

[Big Fau]

I have no idea how your interpreting that section of the rules to mean HP damage deals an equal amount of non-lethal damage, it's saying what happens to you when you've accumulated a certain quantity of non-lethal damage....

But regardless the full quote is:


So you can see that lethal damage does not deal non-lethal damage.

Lethal damage sets the value of their "nonlethal HP". The more lethal damage you deal, the less nonlethal you have to deal.

[grarrrg]

The more lethal damage you deal, the less nonlethal you have to deal.

This makes sense, and is consistent with the rules.

The previous way you phrased it is not quite correct as-is, hence the confusion.
If Lethal straight up dealt an equal amount of nonlethal, then this rule:

Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.
Would mean that you'd only ever have to Lethally damage someone down to 1/2 HP, and they'd be staggered/unconscious.
This is obviously not the case.

So lethal+nonlethal can be effective, but lethal does not 'also deal nonlethal'.

[Ssalarn]

Akashic Mysteries has a class actually based around dealing non-lethal damage so it can definitely be useful in my experience, it's just abit sucky that most non-lethal weapons are pretty weak (though the Akashic Mysteries class had a way around it).

Yeah, I've actually written two classes for publication that deal primarily nonlethal damage, and they're very viable. The only real downside to nonlethal (other than the small number of immune creatures, which you probably want to have some plan for dealing with) is that if you've got a group dealing a mix of lethal and nonlethal, enemies with healing options can get double duty out of them.

My home players are "collectors", always trying to recruit, form alliances, etc. so having a larger buffer to avoid accidentally killing opponents is something they enjoy.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

As a GM, I think the only problem I would have is I would have to figure out suicide options for people I don't want to be interrogated, though it might devolve into the prisoner debate with how I tend to run monsters. My monsters tend to be... well, monsters. I'm referring to the NPC enemies, too.

"Witchers are known to carry two blades. A silver blade for monsters and steel for humans."
"Both are for monsters."

[digiman619]

The Luchadore hybrid class (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/188895/The-Luchador) (Monk/Vigilante, if you care) is useful for a nonlethal build, as they do tons of bonus nonlethal damage, especially on higher levels (2d10 + 6d6+ Cha mod nonlethal damage per unarmed strike or when damaging in a grapple at 20th level). Also has a feat that lets you enchant yourself as a magic weapon, which is awesome for unarmed builds that aren't Deadly Fist Soulknives.

[Zanos]

Lethal damage sets the value of their "nonlethal HP". The more lethal damage you deal, the less nonlethal you have to deal.
A better way to say that would be that nonlethal and lethal damage effectively stack.

Sap master rogue builds are very powerful when they work. You get 2(xd6+x) sneak attack, which is obviously a lot. Nonlethal damage has similar effects to regular damage, in that you win when you deal enough of it, plus it stacks with lethal damage. The issue you run into is some stuff is immune to nonlethal damage, and that cure spells heal both lethal and nonlethal, making them twice as effective if your party mixes damage, which is probably will.

Outside of that, nonlethal damage is frequently useful. If you have a good way to make captives "cooperative", you can get some good information from most DMs.

[Fouredged Sword]

I have a scout skulking slayer sap master build floating around my back pocket I intend to play one day. It focuses on throwing around HDd8+HD(or 2xhd based on how you read the rules) damage sneak attacks of non-lethal damage with a merciful greatclub.

You get to yell "SNEAK ATTACK" while running up to people who can clearly see you and spin like a top and improved cleave sneak attack everyone you can reach. Scout ensures the first attack is a sneak attack. Improved Surprise Follow Through ensures all the rest are. Sap Master and Sap Adept just add damage, lots and lots of damage. You also get to steal and dirty trick anything you don't feel like hitting the AC of.

Fighter 1 / Rogue 19.