Is rape lawful or chaotic?

[Name1]

Yesterday at the table, this question came up:

Now, rape is an Evil act (at least at my table), but how does it relate on the Law vs. Chaos axis?

Is it lawful because it's a living creatures purpose (arguably) to pass on it's gene's, thus fulfilling it's intended purpose (if in a uninteded way)?
Is it chaotic because there was no consent given and thus the whole "impress a female"-kinda thinking of most races is undermined/it's anti-traditional?
Or is it neither of those and just a NE act?

(In case it matters, my LE character was confronted with the choice whether to rape a creature or not. Of course he didn't, 'cause he's married, but the question of alignment just kinda stuck with me)

[illyahr]

In addition to being extremely evil, it's a show of force, one individual's will trumping another, no matter how they try to justify it. In that regard, it's a CE act.

[WarKitty]

I think it could be lawful in certain situations - e.g. a slave-taking race that habitually takes concubines. But it's probably usually chaotic.

[BowStreetRunner]

In addition to being extremely evil, it's a show of force, one individual's will trumping another, no matter how they try to justify it. In that regard, it's a CE act.
Agreed. CE.

[Tiri]

Rape is just NE. There have been cases where it was either against or following established order, but it is primarily evil.

[AnachroNinja]

Imposing authority via force can actually often be a lawful act. That's how lawful societies come about, an inaugural l individual or group imposing their authority. I suppose it would come down, in my opinion, to the motivation. If an individual was committing that act simply for the fun of it or to give in to and feed an impulse, then chaotic.

If instead it is a desire to impose his will and authority over the female (or male) through force, or out of direct desire to force procreation, I could see that being lawful. Just would have to be part of his code or strict outlook. If a knight believes it is his right to have his pick of the village women due to his station and the fact that he protects them, he's really behaving lawfully.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I wouldn't slot it as anything other than Evil, but since it's usually a crime anyway, CE is what it leans towards. I'd think any of the Evil alignments would be capable of it, though; a LE partner could pull a Scarpia and coerce an unwilling partner.

[Anlashok]

I'd argue there are very few (if any at all) single actions that, without context, apply to one specific alignment. There are evil actions and there are good actions, but it's the specific circumstances that'd make either a chaotic evil action.

[JNAProductions]

I'd argue there are very few (if any at all) single actions that, without context, apply to one specific alignment. There are evil actions and there are good actions, but it's the specific circumstances that'd make either a chaotic evil action.

I think we can agree that this is always going to be an evil act. Whether it's NE, LE, or CE is debatable, but the big E is not.

[AnachroNinja]

I'm pretty sure that was exactly his point

[Necroticplague]

It depends heavily on context. Honestly, Law vs. Chaos is often more about why you do something than what you did. If it's merely because you felt like having sex, damned if silly things like 'consent' will get in way of your fun, it's probably a CE act. If it's just one of the many tools in your repertoire as the king's head torturer, it's probably more likely to be LE.

[Red Fel]

Agreeing with others. Rape is unquestionably Evil, but whether it is exercising your personal freedom at the cost of someone else's anguish (CE), an exercise in dominance in order to make those beneath you aware of their place (LE), or simply wanton and horrifically needless cruelty (NE), is a matter of context.

A lot of things can carry a charge on one alignment spectrum but not the other. Breaking promises is C on the L-C spectrum, but is neither Good nor Evil; murdering an innocent is E on the G-E spectrum, but is neither Lawful nor Chaotic. Yet context can change that - promising to spare those who surrender and then murdering them in cold blood is both C and E; murdering an innocent upon the orders of your terrible master is both E and L. Context matters.

Also, ew. This topic? Ew.

[TheYell]

Gonna be pedantic and say the commission of rape is a CE act, but turning a blind eye to it may be LE.

[KillianHawkeye]

Also, ew. This topic? Ew.

Yeah, I sorta feel like the alignment system wasn't designed to answer these sorts of questions. Like everything in D&D, alignment is at best a simulation and at worst an abstraction. In a situation like what the OP has described, I think it's more important to determine the reasons a particular character would or would not commit a particular act than to worry about whether or not the action would be considered a lawful or chaotic flavor of good or evil. Remember that one's alignment does not dictate one's actions; rather it is the grand sum of one's actions and intentions which determines their alignment.

[CharonsHelper]

Also, ew. This topic? Ew.

Indeed. I'll leave this here to lighten the mood. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZyTZuaiSck (The Fantasticks song It Depends Upon What You Pay - about "rape" in a dry humor sort of context.)

[MilleniaAntares]

I'd say it depends on the motivation.

[Zanos]

Agreeing with others. Rape is unquestionably Evil, but whether it is exercising your personal freedom at the cost of someone else's anguish (CE), an exercise in dominance in order to make those beneath you aware of their place (LE), or simply wanton and horrifically needless cruelty (NE), is a matter of context.

A lot of things can carry a charge on one alignment spectrum but not the other. Breaking promises is C on the L-C spectrum, but is neither Good nor Evil; murdering an innocent is E on the G-E spectrum, but is neither Lawful nor Chaotic. Yet context can change that - promising to spare those who surrender and then murdering them in cold blood is both C and E; murdering an innocent upon the orders of your terrible master is both E and L. Context matters.

hesrightyouknow.jpg
Are you allowed to appear when you aren't summoned? :smallamused:



Also, ew. This topic? Ew.

Just a bit, yeah. I hate to say I've probably read threads asking about the alignment consequences of worse stuff. "Is it Evil if I commit genocide on this entire fantasy race?"


Gonna be pedantic and say the commission of rape is a CE act, but turning a blind eye to it may be LE.
Doing nothing should almost always be neutral, unless you have some responsibility to act upon it. An officer ignoring something like that definitely is an aligned action, but a civilian? Neutral.

[AslanCross]

Unequivocally extremely evil, but depending on cultural elements like droit du seigneur aka jus primae noctis, it may be LE. A more modern society with a concept of human rights would probably see it as CE.

[Anlashok]

I think we can agree that this is always going to be an evil act. Whether it's NE, LE, or CE is debatable, but the big E is not.

Of course, I just don't think you can define where on the evil spectrum it exists without context.

[CasualViking]

Of course, I just don't think you can define where on the evil spectrum it exists without context.

CE when it's perpetrated on your betters, LE when done to your inferiors, NE when it's just business as usual (war, f. ex.).

[KillianHawkeye]

You know what? I think I disagree with the entire notion of labeling actions on both alignment spectra entirely. It seems to me that it would be extremely rare that any single action would be non-Neutral on both of the alignment axes.

Rape, murder, genocide... they're Evil. Period. Why does everyone insist on them being also Lawful or Chaotic? That's unnecessary.

Do people ask whether donating to orphanages is Lawful Good or Chaotic Good? Hell no! Because it's just plain, simple Good. It doesn't care about Law or Chaos.

See, the whole thing about the two alignment axes is that they're entirely separate. Good vs Evil and Law vs Chaos really don't interact in a meaningful way. People (characters) only achieve one of the extreme alignments by fulfilling both of their alignments separately, not in actions which further both alignments simultaneously. To be Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil or whatever, it requires you to be both of those things, not to be one thing which is LG or CE separate from what it means to be Good or Lawful or Evil or Chaotic. That just isn't how it works.

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't any actions which are non-Neutral on both the Law-Chaos and the Good-Evil axes, but I am saying that those actions that fall so far from the True Neutral position are the exceptions rather than the common reality.

[Grim Reader]

If motivated by personal physical pleasure, Chaotic Evil. If done as a power-trip or otherwise to dominate, Neutral Evil.

I suppose you could make a case for Lawful Evil if there are legal rights involved, such as conjugal rights, but I'd argue the LE applies more to the society, the person committing the act is more on the NE-CE axis.

[Agrippa]

Raping or having someone raped is always evil, but can be lawful, neutral or chaotic based on the reason why. I interpret Lawful Evil as collectivist/authoritarian evil, cruelty and brutality for the sake the society over the individual. Chaotic Evil is individualistic evil, cruelty and brutality for the sake of the individual and his/her own freedom, often times to do unto others as he or she wishes. Neutral Evil is more of a "third way" form of evil. It's cruelty and brutality for moderate personal gain and or moderate group gain.

Any Evil: As a form of torture and or brainwashing.
Lawful Evil To produce an heir for the family/to the throne (marital rape), punish suspected traitors, punishing one of your children for marrying a member of "the wrong class" by having their spouse raped in front of them and or ethnic cleansing.
Neutral Evil: Because you're getting paid, to "brake in" your "merchandise" or lesser recruits, because the boss/client stiffed you, personal stress relief, one-sided lust and or because everyone else around you is doing it and you don't want to get left out.
Chaotic Evil: Because one can, as a way of lashing out against authority/revenge against the system, to "brake in" your "merchandise" and or personal enjoyment.

[redking]

It can be anywhere on the ethical axis. That said we can follow a simple rule of thumb.

Random rapes (for example, dragging someone off the street and raping them) is not lawful. However, a Lawful society that practices arranged marriages (forced marriages) are effectively causing rapes. So it is important to look at the intentions behind the rape to determine where it stands in relation to law/chaos.

[AnachroNinja]

KillianHawkeye: Donating money to a church or monastery or what have you could very easily be a lawful or chaotic act. Did you just happen to drop some money in the collection plate because you felt like it that day? That's a bit chaotic. Do you donate 100gp every second Friday because that is what your order requires? Pretty lawful. Various other examples exist im sure. As has been mentioned, law and chaos are often about motivation.

[Ortesk]

Hopefully this doesn't come out as offensive, but I imagine the cause behind the crime is what decides it.

If the big barbarian takes a woman after taking her village, he sounds chaotic. But, if he is following an old custom and selected the woman based on the custom and belief of his tribe? That meshes into the lawful act.

A wizard seeing a nymph and charming her then bedding her is harder to decide. On one hand, you can say he had to think out the spell he used, then further coerced, which takes time and order. Thus, lawful. But, if he did the spell on a whim and ran with it, then all of a sudden it is chaotic.

In the end, dnd isn't made for these morals. Simply put, dnd is black and white and real life is grey,mostly. Yes, rape is always evil to a massive degree, but in what circumstances does it become grey? When people have magic to force someone into raping another person, when society says arranged marriage/women (or men) must perform marital duties, when a man could take a fancy to a girl then decide he will just simulcrum/ice assassin/Illusion a perfect copy of her into existence which isn't living but is real enough, and must do whatever the creator commands? where is the line of good vs evil, Law vs Chaos? Only the players and the DM can decide.

[137beth]

Honestly, the meanings of "lawful" and "chaotic" are so vague and contradictory that I don't think it could really be pinned down as one or the other. Hence, I'll say that it is just straight up Evil.

[Name1]

Okay, thanks for the information so far. So essentially, the Chaos-Law-Axis is depedant on the circumstances surrounding it and rape can thus fall on all three of the Evil alignments.

Now I've got another question: We, as humans, hold sex to a very high value. We consider the crime of rape as incredibly vile because of it, among other things.

So another question from me is: What if it's a race which DOESN'T consider sex such an incredibly important thing, and where the consequences physically amount to "costs me 5-10 minutes of my time and requires me to lay an egg into the communal pool sometime during the next three months" and mentally flat out aren't present beyond it being a rude thing to do to someone?

Essentially, is an Evil act lowercase evil if the creature you do it to doesn't care that much about it (like some kind of weird aberration)?

[Ortesk]

So another question from me is: What if it's a race which DOESN'T consider sex such an incredibly important thing, and where the consequences physically amount to "costs me 5-10 minutes of my time and requires me to lay an egg into the communal pool sometime during the next three months" and mentally flat out aren't present beyond it being a rude thing to do to someone?

Essentially, is an Evil act lowercase evil if the creature you do it to doesn't care that much about it (like some kind of weird aberration)?

Okay, imagine this. I come over to your house, and I grab a pop from the fridge. I didn't ask. I stole something (evil) but you see me, say next time ask, then shrug. Is it still stealing? No, since you don't care about the item anymore. Make sense?

In your question, if the abberation doesn't care, then it is like taking a dollar from your spouses wallet. It is rude to not ask, but if nobody is mad/hurt/used/hindered, then it isn't an immoral act.

When an orc kills a man, he takes his wives. The women accept it. They don't protest it, so is it rape? That is for you to decide

[Merellis]

Yes.

I mean, it's still gonna be evil.

If I go murder a person who sort of just resigns to their fate and doesn't give a crap about it, I still straight up murdered them. If I go steal from someone who doesn't care too much about it, I still did the act of stealing in the first place. Beat up and mug someone who just moves on with life afterwards? Still the same thing, it doesn't exactly matter if the person resisted, or even minded after the fact, there's still the fact that I went and committed an act of violence on a person because I wanted to do it without their consent to such a thing.

And I am not getting into a discussion of an alien mind and how they would react or care about rape, because that goes down a lot of ridiculous rabbit holes. :smallmad:

[JNAProductions]

I think Imma agree with Merellis here-talking about that is probably just a bad idea. If it works for your table, that's fine, but here on a public forum? Might be a good time to exercise discretion.

[Red Fel]

So another question from me is: What if it's a race which DOESN'T consider sex such an incredibly important thing, and where the consequences physically amount to "costs me 5-10 minutes of my time and requires me to lay an egg into the communal pool sometime during the next three months" and mentally flat out aren't present beyond it being a rude thing to do to someone?

Essentially, is an Evil act lowercase evil if the creature you do it to doesn't care that much about it (like some kind of weird aberration)?

First off, when we go from discussing "Is rape Evil in D&D" to "What makes rape evil," we're going from a fictional issue to a potentially real-world issue, which is a bad idea.

Second, Evil isn't subjective in D&D. It's objective and RAW. Rape is Evil, full stop. It doesn't matter what a particular race thinks about sex, or power, or crime, or morality - taking sex by force, without consent, is an objectively Evil act, the end.

[Name1]

I see... well, if that is a question you guys don't feel confortable with, I will consider it done^^

Alright, thanks to you all for the replies to the original question and this question. Now I have a solution if that alignment-question comes up again.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu:Yeah, let's just end this here before it gets any worse. Definitely not something we should probably be discussing to begin with.