Nice Priests of Not-So-Nice Gods

[Extra Anchovies]

What generally nasty and unfriendly deities do you think could support priests who are individually decent people?

I've had a vague idea bouncing around for a CN cleric of General Grievous (http://i.imgur.com/XFbCJfP.png) Lamashtu (http://i.imgur.com/iuvkVIE.jpg) who crusades for equality between all non-extraplanar sentient species. "Gnolls are people too", "Save the Grimlocks", that sort of thing.

Another concept I've thought of is a TN or CG follower of Groetus (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Groetus), drawing on the space-death-moon-god's apparent ties to the eventual end of the Material Plane (which will come after the death of its last soul-bearing inhabitant). Perhaps Groetus knows (due to its possible ties to Pharasma) exactly when and how the world is supposed to end, and the character becomes an adventurer to stop anyone who tries to end it sooner than planned.

What similar ideas have you had, whether serious or silly?

[Ortesk]

I played a Cleric of Loki who was CN, and went around doing mild pranks on people. But, his pranks were all life lessons. Say the warrior was super proud of his +5 sword of swordiness, the priest would hide it/repress the magic then we have a fight, and the warrior uses a back up weapon to win. Then the priest gives the weapon back and lectures how the man makes the weapon, not the other way around, and be proud of yourself and not the weapon.

The bard was proud of his good looks, I cast an illusion to make him look like a mongrelfolk (was a custom spell iirc) and then he went through the day doing bard stuff, but being looked down upon by the NPC's. So the bard player became far more creative in his RP, which the dm gave a bonus on social rolls for which countered the penalty of being a fugly dude. Thus, at the end of the day I gave a great speech about how looks don't matter, and it is a persons heart and soul that bleeds through for true beauty.

But by thy lord Loki, I burned every filthy shrine to Thor I could find. Nobody has got time for that noise

[Gnaeus]

I had a CN cleric to a CE god. His position was that his god really represented unlimited freedom and that all that "evil" stuff just had to do with misunderstandings by other followers or the public, or in some cases necessary and justified reactions to how the other gods treated him at the dawn of time. He endeavored to build a church of CN worshipers to his CE god. He spent most of his time trying to overthrow the world's largest city because of its "oppressive laws" that prevented people from maximizing their own self potential by living up to their own personal morality free of any outside restraint.

[Red Fel]

One of my favorite builds involves the Stormlord PrC (Complete Divine) and the Mark of Storms. The end result is a character who can generate massive destructive tornadoes, multiple times a day, to which he is completely immune and in which he can fly.

The Stormord PrC requires divine spellcasting and alignment "as for a cleric of Talos." You don't have to be a Cleric of Talos, but you do have to be aligned as one, and he's CE, so that's the CN/CE/NE corner of the grid.

So mine was CN. Basically, take all the destructive power of the world's most terrifying and horrific storms, and put it in the hands of someone who really just loves the wind in his face. He's the ultimate free spirit - he loves to fly, loves the sheer exalting sensation of being completely free of gravity, loves the adrenaline rush of the tempest winds and earthshaking thunder. He's an adrenaline junky who conjures natural disasters, not out of any sense of malice, but because it's super fun, you guys. He didn't really have a mean bone in his body; it just happened that he was at his happiest when doing stuff which would basically level cities.

Not the nicest guy, but fairly nice.

[Inevitability]

I've played a CG cleric of Gruumsh. Basically, he believed Gruumsh is actually a CN deity of martial strength and orcs, but circumstances (such as the other races hogging all the fertile lands) forced orcs into a live of pillaging. He interpreted the rise of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows as a sign from Gruumsh that the orcs should focus on peacefully living with other races again.

He still didn't like dwarves or elves, but found it important to establish good bonds between orcs and other humanoids and remove their negative perceptions of Gruumsh' church, and his good behavior pretty much came from that wish.


One of my favorite builds involves the Stormlord PrC (Complete Divine) and the Mark of Storms. The end result is a character who can generate massive destructive tornadoes, multiple times a day, to which he is completely immune and in which he can fly.

The Stormord PrC requires divine spellcasting and alignment "as for a cleric of Talos." You don't have to be a Cleric of Talos, but you do have to be aligned as one, and he's CE, so that's the CN/CE/NE corner of the grid.

So mine was CN. Basically, take all the destructive power of the world's most terrifying and horrific storms, and put it in the hands of someone who really just loves the wind in his face. He's the ultimate free spirit - he loves to fly, loves the sheer exalting sensation of being completely free of gravity, loves the adrenaline rush of the tempest winds and earthshaking thunder. He's an adrenaline junky who conjures natural disasters, not out of any sense of malice, but because it's super fun, you guys. He didn't really have a mean bone in his body; it just happened that he was at his happiest when doing stuff which would basically level cities.

Not the nicest guy, but fairly nice.

You could also have taken Heretic of the Faith to be CG or LE.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Some death gods -- those who are about passing on from this world and chivvying souls into the afterlife, rather than various forms of torment, murder, and undeath.

Death is inevitable for most beings, and it is a very painful and tumultuous event for those who are close to the recently deceased (not to mention the deceased itself). Helping them to cope and ensuring that they are cared for as needed when dealing with something that is horribly traumatic is unpleasant, but it's a function made much easier when you've got a big heart, plenty of know-how, and lots of experience.

[OldTrees1]

Some Pelorites are nice regardless of whether Pelor is not-so-nice NG or the Burning Hate.

[Geddy2112]

Just because your deity is a jerk does not mean you have to be. See AffablyEvil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil)

Likewise, "evil" gods can be perfectly affable or even "nice", while some good aligned gods can come off as real jerks or uptight do right's. Pathfinder has Sarenrae, who goes from forgiving kind healer to smite with holy fire on a dime. Urgathoa is plenty evil, but she is not particularly malicious and her harm towards others is more a byproduct of her own hedonism and selfishness.

I once played a LE Grippli Warpriest of Urgathoa named poison ivy. She was a matriarch of her community-adviser, mother, wife, chef, hunter, healer, sage, and if needed, soldier. She loved her people and treated all who helped her people as kindly as she treated her own children. She saw necromancy as the way her people could become immortal, and to safeguard that their best would never be lost across the threshold of death. She is also a total bon vivant, hedonist, and foodie, where no dish was too exotic(even her own kind). She would even rush into combat and risk her life to save her party. After all, she knew if she fell in battle the pallid princess would bring her back in the glory of undeath. If the party wanted, she would bring them back as undead on death, but she knew most of them were not ready for ascension so in the meantime, she ensured that none went near the threshold. Her undead minions were also ordered to protect and serve her friends, although the party was often a little off put in having skeleton's take watch and pour wine.

She loved her friends, but those who crossed her or her friends were swiftly pumped full of negative energy and scythed into pieces. She always gave quarter to her enemies. If they promised to serve, she would spare them, and a fair amount agreed when they had a scythe on their neck. They failed to realize that servitude meant getting your throat cut and raised as a skeleton/zombie. If they said no, she quartered them and maybe took a little piece for herself. A liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

[A.A.King]

Wee Jas is basically the Goddess of Players who onlu play Neutral Characters because they aren't allowed to play an Evil Character or worship an Evi God. Her alignment is officially Lawful "Neutral" but Neutral Characters worshipping her have to channel Negative Energy (usually Neutral Characters who worship Neutral Gods get to chose). Wee Jas knows what is up, and she is willing to enable your 'Evil Tendenies' when playing with goody-two shoes. However, because of this is she is allowed to have Lawful Good Clerics.

Back when I first started playing D&D I thought up a Lawful Good Cleric of Wee Jas. This was a doctor who researched Magic and Death in hopes of curing it forever and who raised the dead to gain even greater insights into the Human Body (this was based on the reading that a Good Cleric could cast an [Evil] spell like Animate Dead but only if he got it from his Domain). The main point of this concept was that I thought a cleric needed to be a heal bot (which basically requires channeling positive Energy) but I also wanted to minionmance. I never got to play this character but I still think it is an interesting concept, and it does seem like the natural extenstion of Wee Jas own views on the undead. Wee Jas is unconcerned with questions of morality and as such she has no problem with undead being created - as long as they are not reanimated against their will, and their remains are procured in a lawful manner. This 'Doctor Death' would argue that because the soul has moved on it is perfectly Moral and in fact Good to animate a dead body if it helps the living (either by defending or by being researched).

[Malimar]

I once played a nice LN follower of Asmodeus in PF, ignoring the evil aspects and treating him as the god of civilization and contracts (upon which civilization is based).

[LudicSavant]

A lot of religions worship explicitly harmful deities because they need to be appeased to prevent their wrath. For instance, one might sacrifice to the god of sea and storms not because you think he's such a swell guy, but because you want to keep him fat and sleepy so he won't eat your ship.

[barakaka]

While not precisely what you asked for, Eberron is absolutely filled with people worshiping evil deities with absolutely no idea of just how bad they really are. Lots of commoners will worship the religion of Vol (a lich that is not precisely a god, but she grants spells to clerics). This religion demands self-inflicted bloodshed in order to "purify" yourself. If you worship hard enough, you could even become an undead!

Fill that blood-bowl up commoner! Do you want to un-live forever?!?!

[LudicSavant]

While not precisely what you asked for, Eberron is absolutely filled with people worshiping evil deities with absolutely no idea of just how bad they really are. Lots of commoners will worship the religion of Vol (a lich that is not precisely a god, but she grants spells to clerics). This religion demands self-inflicted bloodshed in order to "purify" yourself. If you worship hard enough, you could even become an undead!

Fill that blood-bowl up commoner! Do you want to un-live forever?!?!

That's a rather harsh depiction of the Blood of Vol. For one thing, the religion predates the lich, and most worshipers are not even aware of her existence (let alone have her as the object of worship). The roots of the faith date back millenia before she was even born, to the giants of Xen'drik and the elves who fled to Aerenal. For another, well... here's a viewpoint from the creator of the setting:


I've posted about this before, but what the heck.

My original take on the Blood of Vol (well, with a few edits) can be found on page 95 of Sharn: City of Towers, in which it is presented as a variant sect of the faith. Faiths of Eberron comes closer than many other books, but there are a few crucial differences. To sum up my view of the faith:

The Blood of Vol is founded on the premise that gods exist. However, it takes the question "What just god would allow suffering" and concludes "None" - that if gods exist and suffering exists, the gods must be responsible for the suffering. As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods - they kill us for their sport.

The second piece of this is the idea that divinity lies within blood. Essentially, we all have the potential to be gods. The problem is that this takes time. Which is why the gods afflicted us with disease and mortality - so that we will die before we can rise to their level. It's not unlike the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Eternal Life.
Following the FoE approach, those who seek the divinity within can approach this greater power. But in my vision, they can't ever reach it. You simply don't have enough time in this life to attain true divinity; the hostile gods will always stop you. Which means that the ultimate goal of the BoV is to find a way to destroy the gods - to defeat death itself.

How do you go about doing this when no one has ever seen a god? Good question. Perhaps you have to take away their worshippers. Perhaps you have to build up enough power that you can reach some higher realm beyond the known planes. Either way, it's something that's difficult to do in a mortal lifespan... and that's where the undead come in. The undead escape the curse, and by living many lifespans, they have the potential to gain knowledge and power, to advise the living, and to be their champions in the battle that is to come. At the same time, they are martyrs. Because the ultimate divinity lies in the blood, and they no longer have it. Even if the cruel gods are defeated and the new age brought to the world, they have thrown away their ultimate potential to serve in this great battle. So the typical worshipper doesn't want to be undead; he wants to be immortal.

Why the BoV is commonly seen as "worshipping undead" is because they are devoted to their undead champions. The peasant farmer knows HE has no hope of fighting the gods - but he believes that the vampire knight may one day save us all from death. What the farmer CAN do is give his blood to the vampire, and this he does willingly.
10:35 PM When it comes to mindless undead, the BoV simply has no qualms about using them. They believe that once you're dead, your soul is destroyed by those cruel gods. There's nothing special about the body left behind, and if your body can serve your community, great. The warrior sworn to the BoV fights the gods in life with his faith, and when he dies, he wants his bones to rise up and continue the battle.

I never intended the Blood of Vol to be a "EEEEVIL" faith. They creep people out because of their association with undead, blood rituals, and the like. But in their eyes, they are heroes. If they are successful, they will bring an end to death for all living things. The followers of the Sovereign Host are worse then fools - they are empowering the very gods who have brought death to the world. They must be stopped - it's too bad, but it's for the good of all. So ultimately, the BoV is a religion based on positive principles: saving the entire world from death. This ties to the fact that I think very few people WANT to be evil. My view of good and yours may be very different. But the BoV peasant firmly believes that in giving his blood to the vampire, he is saving the world.
The flip side of this is the Order of the Emerald Claw. They HAVE always been the EEEVIL side of things. They're the extremists who tarnish the name of their entire faith in the eyes of the world, just like so many religious extremists in our world. Likewise, the Emerald Claw is supposed to be directly interested in doing whatever Erandis wants, not whatever the faith dictates. And at the end of the day, ERANDIS isn't interested in saving the world from death. She's using this faith to manipulate the masses - but her goals are as selfish as the most corrupt priest of the Silver Flame. Again, the key to Eberron is that corruption can be found in ANY church - the evil ones as well as the good ones. So the EC has always been intended as purely evil pulp villains - but the BoV is a faith that can appeal to tens of thousands of perfectly decent people.
A final thing I'll say is that the Blood of Vol also seemed to me to be an archtypically Karrnathi faith. The gods hate you and want to destroy you. Death is the end - there's no happy after life waiting for you, just the utter destruction of your soul. All you have is your friends and your family, and the fight to make this life worthwhile. You will support the champions and fight the cruel gods, and when they kill you, you will rise from the grave and continue the battle until they grind your bones to dust. And some day your people will defeat the gods themselves.

So that's my take on the Blood of Vol. In my opinion, community is very important to the faith; we have to stand together, because the universe itself is against us. Rather than being atheistic or selfish, it's actually a sort of grim altruism; if they succeed in their struggle, they'll save even the unworthy fools who worship the Sovereigns.

My intent was also to create irreconcilable differences between the three major faiths - faiths which in and of themselves could all be positive forces. The Silver Flame hates the Blood of Vol for its use of undead and negative energy. The Blood of Vol doesn't care about the Silver Flame, but hates the Sovereigns as the source of suffering, and is forced to oppose the followers of the Host. And the SH doesn't much care about either of the others, but that doesn't solve its troubles with the BoV.

Anyhow, there you have it. I'm fine with all the various forms the BoV has taken, but personally I like the struggle against the cruel gods.

[Extra Anchovies]

That's a rather harsh depiction of the Blood of Vol. For one thing, the religion predates the lich, and most worshipers are not even aware of her existence (let alone have her as the object of worship). The roots of the faith date back millenia before she was even born, to the giants of Xen'drik and the elves who fled to Aerenal. For another, well... here's a viewpoint from the creator of the setting:

Thanks for sharing that! I was already aware of the general fluff for the Blood of Vol, but I'd not come across the developer's thoughts on it before. Definitely an interesting read.


A final thing I'll say is that the Blood of Vol also seemed to me to be an archtypically Karrnathi faith. The gods hate you and want to destroy you. Death is the end - there's no happy after life waiting for you, just the utter destruction of your soul. All you have is your friends and your family, and the fight to make this life worthwhile. You will support the champions and fight the cruel gods, and when they kill you, you will rise from the grave and continue the battle until they grind your bones to dust. And some day your people will defeat the gods themselves.

Yet another reason why Karrnath is just so cool. I'm a big fan of that place, if my avatar wasn't enough of a clue already :smallbiggrin:

[LudicSavant]

Thanks for sharing that! I was already aware of the general fluff for the Blood of Vol, but I'd not come across the developer's thoughts on it before. Definitely an interesting read.

Keith Baker used to be a very prolific poster on the pre-Gleemax WotC forums. That bit was one of the few things I happened to rescue before WotC deleted all of his posts and nuked their own community (I still wish I had access to all of it).

[Braininthejar2]

I suppose a priest of Shar could be a philosophical fatalist type. The eternal darkness will eventually consume all - no need to be a jerk just to speed things up. But if you're suffering in your current position, I could harden your heart so you no longer care...

[umbergod]

Once played a LG paladin of Wee Jas. I acted as a wandering judge, hunting down those who escaped laws justice, acting extra ruthlessly against any illegal necromantic activities

[Malimar]

While not precisely what you asked for, Eberron is absolutely filled with people worshiping evil deities with absolutely no idea of just how bad they really are. Lots of commoners will worship the religion of Vol (a lich that is not precisely a god, but she grants spells to clerics). This religion demands self-inflicted bloodshed in order to "purify" yourself. If you worship hard enough, you could even become an undead!

Fill that blood-bowl up commoner! Do you want to un-live forever?!?!

Ohhey, this reminds me that I'm currently playing a True Neutral follower of the Blood of Vol, focusing a bit too literally on the "divinity is in your blood" aspect. He (a warforged planning on going into Fleshwarper) intends to upgrade himself with a circulatory system full of blood at some point, so that he, too, can be divine.