Monks, anti-magic fields, and beholders

[Dalebert]

Monks have some abilities that seem very similar to spells. Are they magic?

There are cases where it specifically says a monk casts a spell with ki where it seems unambiguously magical, but what about stunning strike? Running up walls or across water? Teleporting from one area of darkness or dim light to another? Which things would work in anti-magic fields?

Is this addressed anywhere in the books?

[NNescio]

Monks have some abilities that seem very similar to spells. Are they magic?

There are cases where it specifically says a monk casts a spell with ki where it seems unambiguously magical, but what about stunning strike? Running up walls or across water? Teleporting from one area of darkness or dim light to another? Which things would work in anti-magic fields?

Is this addressed anywhere in the books?

That's the problem with AMF in general and 5e's frequent omission on what counts as magical or not. So, if the rule doesn't explicitly say something is magical (e.g. Wildshape's "magically assume" clause), this is going to be entirely up to the DM's purview.

For me, I would rule running up walls or across water to be non-magical, but shadowbamfing to be magical. Stunning strike, probably nonmagical as well (I could see some DMs interpreting the "mystic energy" part of Ki to be magical though ). In general, for similar abilities, I tend to draw upon 3.5e's rules on what constitutes as mundane (extraordinary) or magical (spell/supernatural/spell-like ability) if it's unclear in 5e, but that's just a personal DM's preference.

(Notably in 3.5e Ki was treated as magical ["supernatural"] but Stunning Fist and Flurry of Blows do not rely on Ki and were nonmagical. Flurry was explicitly nonmagical ["extraordinary"] while Stunning Fist defaulted to natural [unmarked])

[Sir cryosin]

Monks have some abilities that seem very similar to spells. Are they magic?

There are cases where it specifically says a monk casts a spell with ki where it seems unambiguously magical, but what about stunning strike? Running up walls or across water? Teleporting from one area of darkness or dim light to another? Which things would work in anti-magic fields?

Is this addressed anywhere in the books?

Stunning strike is hard to call because it's fueled by ki. But running up walls and across water is not effected by anti-magic because it not magical those are feats of great athleticism watch ninja warrior/ American Ninja Warrior or any parkour vidoes. Now running on water is impossible for humans and reality to do. But this ability is there to show just how fast a Dungeons & Dragons monk can run. You can see examples of this ability in real life by watching videos of people going across open water on snowmobiles or dirt bikes or there's a lizard that can run on water. Now the teleporting thing is also hard to call because it's like a magical effect but I do believe in the wording of the book it doesn't say it's a spell like ability so technically it's not a spell or Magic

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Monks have some abilities that seem very similar to spells. Are they magic?

There are cases where it specifically says a monk casts a spell with ki where it seems unambiguously magical, but what about stunning strike? Running up walls or across water? Teleporting from one area of darkness or dim light to another? Which things would work in anti-magic fields?

Is this addressed anywhere in the books?

If you read the entry for the Monk, on page 76, you will see the following...

Paragraph called "The Magic of Ki"

"Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki."
"Monks harness this power within themselves to create magical effects and exceed their bodies' physical capabilities..."


Anything using ki is magic.

[NNescio]

If you read the entry for the Monk, on page 76, you will see the following...

Paragraph called "The Magic of Ki"

"Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki."
"Monks harness this power within themselves to create magical effects and exceed their bodies' physical capabilities..."


Anything using ki is magic.

Alright, never mind then. Per RAW everything using Ki is magical and shut off by AMF. Kinda of a bummer for Stunning Strike and Flurry.

[Dalebert]

Shadow monks teleport or turn invisible without spending ki and without casting spells. :smallcool:

Yeah, I know. It's a stretch.

We're fighting a beholder soon so this is all relevant.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Shadow monks teleport or turn invisible without spending ki and without casting spells. :smallcool:

Yeah, I know. It's a stretch.

We're fighting a beholder soon so this is all relevant.

Well... A DM may call that as magical, I wouldn't but be prepared. Teleporting is the key word in this one.

Also... You WANT the beholder to shoot their Anti-Magic ray, that's the best way to take out a beholder.

[Dalebert]

Actually, I'm not that worried about it. I have enough movement to get out of its cone to teleport up to it. Problem with these bastards is they fly.

If your target can't see you, does that grant you advantage for grapple checks?

[R.Shackleford]

Actually, I'm not that worried about it. I have enough movement to get out of its cone to teleport up to it. Problem with these bastards is they fly.

If your target can't see you, does that grant you advantage for grapple checks?

Nope. Grapple are strength checks and not attacks, though attacks can be substituted for grapples. It gets very fiddly but that's the gist of it.

If you are smaller than the target you should "Climb Onto A Bigger Creature" as you can use Acrobatics or Athletics.

[Dalebert]

Nope. Grapple are strength checks and not attacks, though attacks can be substituted for grapples.

I'm sure you meant grapples can be substituted for attacks. That's what I thought but this came up in a thread recently and I could swear someone quoted some PHB text that verified that grapples are, in fact, a type of attack. I'm not too invested in it though because...


If you are smaller than the target you should "Climb Onto A Bigger Creature" as you can use Acrobatics or Athletics.

And my monk has excellent acrobatics. That was my original plan. I've done this before with an undead beholder but it was with a different DM. Wasn't sure if I would get away with it (though I'm optimistic). If there's text on it, that makes me more optimistic. It would just be nice to have solid mechanics to point at.

[R.Shackleford]

I'm sure you meant grapples can be substituted for attacks. That's what I thought but this came up in a thread recently and I could swear someone quoted some PHB text that verified that grapples are, in fact, a type of attack. I'm not too invested in it though because...



And my monk has excellent acrobatics. That was my original plan. I've done this before with an undead beholder but it was with a different DM. Wasn't sure if I would get away with it (though I'm optimistic). If there's text on it, that makes me more optimistic. It would just be nice to have solid mechanics to point at.

Yeah, my cat decided it was play time so I'm dodging attacks from him. He's a cute little stinker.


You should teleport, attack (attempt to stun) , and use a grapple (climb) (due to extra attack).

Now stunning a creature does cause them to auto fail str and dex checks...

[Dalebert]

I have Slippers of Spider Climb. Does that matter? Once I'm up there, can't I at least use them to stay up there until it starts trying to throw me off (which could be a while if I keep it stun-locked). I realize that shouldn't mean an auto-success on the grapple but just wondering if I need to worry about grapple if its stunned.

[R.Shackleford]

I have Slippers of Spider Climb. Does that matter? Once I'm up there, can't I at least use them to stay up there until it starts trying to throw me off (which could be a while if I keep it stun-locked). I realize that shouldn't mean an auto-success on the grapple but just wondering if I need to worry about grapple if its stunned.

If it is stunned it auto fails grapples.

I'm not sure if the slippers help, though you could use them for tactical positioning of the beholder...

[Belac93]

Technically, by RAW, a monk teleporting is non-magical.

However, by RAL (rules as logic), I would say that the only ones that are explicitly magical to the point of being negated in anti-magic are Empty Body, Shadow Arts, Shadow Step, Cloak of Shadows, and Way of the Four Elements. As well as Touch of the Long Death, and all of the Way of the Sun Soul powers from SCAG.

[R.Shackleford]

Wait... the beholder has hover as a natural ability or whatever...

Grapple the beholder (who is stunned), run up a wall and stop at the top, and then "slam dunk" the beholder I to the ground.

You should be able to move the beholder easier than other creatures...

Edit


Technically, by RAW, a monk teleporting is non-magical.

However, by RAL (rules as logic), I would say that the only ones that are explicitly magical to the point of being negated in anti-magic are Empty Body, Shadow Arts, Shadow Step, Cloak of Shadows, and Way of the Four Elements. As well as Touch of the Long Death, and all of the Way of the Sun Soul powers from SCAG.

Any ability that references ki would be magical, including deflect missile (at least the part where you use ki).

We would need to read the actual description of the ability and not just if it uses ki or not.


Edit 2


Deflect Missiles

Starting at 3rd level, you can use your reaction to deflect or catch the missile when you are hit by a ranged weapon attack. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your monk level.

If you reduce the damage to 0, you can catch the missile if it is small enough for you to hold in one hand and you have at least one hand free. If you catch a missile in this way, you can spend 1 ki point to make a ranged attack with the weapon or piece of ammunition you just caught, as part of the same reaction. You make this attack with proficiency, regardless of your weapon proficiencies, and the missile counts as a monk weapon for the attack, which has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.

The strikeout is what isn't magical but the underlined IS magical.

[Dalebert]

There is no mention if ki for either Shadow Step or Cloak of Shadows. I suppose one could be lawyery and argue that this is a manipulation of shadow, their special sub-domain, rather than of ki. *shrug*

That said, since ki is the core explanation for the amazing abilities of monks, it seems they could arguably lose all class features while in an anti-magic field. They may not need to spend the limited resource of ki points to do some things, but the manipulation of that energy is still the explanation for how they're doing those things. They can't run faster, they're unarmored defense goes away, etc. You could put an anti-magic field at the bottom of a pit and they wouldn't be able to slow-fall the damage away.

[Foxhound438]

I'm sure you meant grapples can be substituted for attacks. That's what I thought but this came up in a thread recently and I could swear someone quoted some PHB text that verified that grapples are, in fact, a type of attack. I'm not too invested in it though because...


They are an alternative type of attack, but being unseen doesn't give you "advantage on d20 rolls for attacks", it's "advantage on attack rolls", being a specific type of roll explicitly defined in the game as "roll plus relevant bonuses vs. target AC"

[Foxhound438]

There is no mention if ki for either Shadow Step or Cloak of Shadows. I suppose one could be lawyery and argue that this is a manipulation of shadow, their special sub-domain, rather than of ki. *shrug*

That said, since ki is the core explanation for the amazing abilities of monks, it seems they could arguably lose all class features while in an anti-magic field. They may not need to spend the limited resource of ki points to do some things, but the manipulation of that energy is still the explanation for how they're doing those things. They can't run faster, they're unarmored defense goes away, etc. You could put an anti-magic field at the bottom of a pit and they wouldn't be able to slow-fall the damage away.

I think of unarmored defense as being more of a "i can tell where you will strike better because of my special (nonmagical) training." skill rather than power, ya know?

Also you get that before you get Ki, so from a more lawyery perspective (this being after "mystic energy" and "magic" being conflated, while both are abstract in the first place) you don't even have ki when you first get that feature. Same with all the martial arts benefits.

[BiPolar]

I wouldn't rule that class abilities that aren't defined as magic are magical. If you do, then no channel divinities, no paladin vows, etc. etc.

[R.Shackleford]

I wouldn't rule that class abilities that aren't defined as magic are magical. If you do, then no channel divinities, no paladin vows, etc. etc.

Except a lot of those things are magical.

You may as well not even use anti-magic and stuff like that, which I'm OK with.

Actually the way one of my old DMs used anti-magic (and null magic) in 3e and 4e was that it was more about setting that area of the fantasy world to "real world" parameters. A lot of things got nullified in those zones (magic, supernatural, and extraordinary).

[NNescio]

If you read the entry for the Monk, on page 76, you will see the following...

Paragraph called "The Magic of Ki"

"Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki."
"Monks harness this power within themselves to create magical effects and exceed their bodies' physical capabilities..."


Anything using ki is magic.

Wait a minute, double bummer, that means Stunning Strike is subject to Magic Resistance.

[Foxhound438]

Wait a minute, double bummer, that means Stunning Strike is subject to Magic Resistance.

well, taking a second look at stunning strike, I'd argue that ki itself is not magical, and mystical has some inherent difference in canon. Otherwise, an antimagic field would perma-stun everything in the area by turning off the ki that all creatures have.

[Dalebert]

well, taking a second look at stunning strike, I'd argue that ki itself is not magical, and mystical has some inherent difference in canon. Otherwise, an antimagic field would perma-stun everything in the area by turning off the ki that all creatures have.

I definitely thought of this too. Ki is described as being like the life force of all creatures.

[Logosloki]

I use AMF very rarely but the question I ask myself for what does and does not count is "would you use the cast a spell action"?

This is probably very narrow as a definition.

[R.Shackleford]

well, taking a second look at stunning strike, I'd argue that ki itself is not magical, and mystical has some inherent difference in canon. Otherwise, an antimagic field would perma-stun everything in the area by turning off the ki that all creatures have.

Ki is specifically called out as magic. Read the monk.

Having ki and using ki is two different things. Anti-magic doesn't stop you from having magic, just stops you from using magic.

Wizards aren't stunned or anything when they walk into an AMD afterall.

[ImFromNASA]

There is no mention if ki for either Shadow Step or Cloak of Shadows. I suppose one could be lawyery and argue that this is a manipulation of shadow, their special sub-domain, rather than of ki. *shrug*

That said, since ki is the core explanation for the amazing abilities of monks, it seems they could arguably lose all class features while in an anti-magic field. They may not need to spend the limited resource of ki points to do some things, but the manipulation of that energy is still the explanation for how they're doing those things. They can't run faster, they're unarmored defense goes away, etc. You could put an anti-magic field at the bottom of a pit and they wouldn't be able to slow-fall the damage away.

I think what this thread, and perhaps most discussions about this kind of thing, are missing is an understanding of the LAYERS. I have written a larger "essay" on this, but since that is dealing primarily with the place of Psionics, the little description below should suffice:

At the bottom is FORMS, the planes, the gods, artifacts that always show up again mysteriously, overused plot devices, puns. These are essential and (though not immutable) usually pretty static.

Next is PHYSICS. Nobody says a natural gas bomb or a normal fire or a sharp stick doesn't work in an anti-magic or null-magic area.

Next is RAW MAGIC. This exists independently of the goddess of magic, Mystra (or insert of Weave-maintaining deity here), though she she can manipulate it. Raw Magical effects usually come into being when strong magic of the upper layers clash, opposites exploding. Very few can wield the power of Raw Magic, also sometimes called Spellfire, usually only those special enough to be counted as Chosen of Mystra, but there are a few novels that note the exceptions.

Next is VITAL FORCE (KI). This exists wherever life exists. It is strength, growth, and vitality. Monk abilities mostly operate here (except the elemental ones, which are arguably self-induced sorcery (or perhaps psionics)--the book references here are few). The monk shadow-step is a kind of soul-power, expanding your sense of self into the shadows and moving through them as easily as you would do anything else, not relying on a connection into the Weave to create the effect; a stunning strike is your ki directly encountering the ki of another living being, also not evoking some effect through the Weave; etc.

(Then there's also PRIMORDIAL and PLANAR magic down here around the same level as vital force but they aren't important to talk about here, so I'll skip them).

Finally, we have the WEAVE, the SHADOW WEAVE, and the PSIONIC FIELD which operate independently of one another, but allow actual "Magic" stuff to happen. Most of everything in D&D is at this layer (including all the beholder magic, null-magic zones, wild magic zones, anti-magic fields... fireballs).

SOOOOO, YES! You can do most of your monk stuff to beat up a beholder (sorry elemental monks, you're weird)! However, you're shoes won't work if he looks at you wrong so hold on...

-AndrewDM

[Dalebert]

SOOOOO, YES! You can do most of your monk stuff to beat up a beholder (sorry elemental monks, you're weird)! However, you're shoes won't work if he looks at you wrong so hold on...

Right... IF you were my DM. In reality, I won't know until the time comes. What is convenient though is I can have magical darkness and invisibility. He won't be able to target me with any of his rays regardless because if

a) He has his anti-magic cone on me, he'll be able to see me but his cone is also protecting me from his eye-rays.
b) He doesn't have his anti-magic cone on me, he won't be able to see me and that is required to target me with his eye-rays.

:smallbiggrin::smallcool:

[HeyBJ]

That said, since ki is the core explanation for the amazing abilities of monks, it seems they could arguably lose all class features while in an anti-magic field. They may not need to spend the limited resource of ki points to do some things, but the manipulation of that energy is still the explanation for how they're doing those things. They can't run faster, they're unarmored defense goes away, etc. You could put an anti-magic field at the bottom of a pit and they wouldn't be able to slow-fall the damage away.

It never explicitly says that ki manipulation is how monks move quickly, land without damage, or catch/deflect arrows, etc. Of course things that require ki points are ki-based, but who's to say the other stuff isn't a result of training and conditioning? After all, barbarians also have unarmored movement, and there are other non-magical class abilities from other classes similar to monk abilities. If those can be achievable through training and experience, we can assume monks are capable of at least some of their signature abilities through the same means. If it were me, I'd say that the description of the ability has to mention ki in some way for AMF to affect it.

[Dalebert]

If you are smaller than the target you should "Climb Onto A Bigger Creature" as you can use Acrobatics or Athletics.

I can't find the text for this. Can you give me a page number?

EDIT: I found it in the DMG. DM'll probably let it work but DMG is not legal for AL play.


If it were me, I'd say that the description of the ability has to mention ki in some way for AMF to affect it.

I hope my DM thinks like you. That means I can be invisible and teleport.

[Barbarian Horde]

Wait monks lose flurry in AMF? That's just retarded. Sounds like the monk gets gutted in AMF while others still stand strong. I hope that's not the case.

I don't belive AMF was intended to affect Ki abilities. Even though it's called magical in raw I don't think monks pull their "magic" fromt the same place wizards do. They aren't casting spells.

They aren't casting spells. Ki has been a traditionally been labeled as life source energy, but D&D labeled as magical effect. Reading through multiple topics I'm inclined to lean towards them not being affected by AMF.

[HeyBJ]

I hope my DM thinks like you. That means I can be invisible and teleport.

Now that I have my PHB in front of me, I'm not sure about shadow step. It specifically says "teleport," which seems like an inherently magical term to me. For cloak of shadows, if you take the language liberally, a monk being able to "become one with the shadows" doesn't necessarily mean magical; it could just mean he's really good at hiding in dim light. So good that he's basically (and literally, in this case) invisible? The fact that bright light gets rid of this invisibility suggests to me that this is a plausible interpretation.


I don't belive AMF was intended to affect Ki abilities. Even though it's called magical in raw I don't think monks pull their "magic" fromt the same place wizards do. They aren't casting spells.

I'm inclined to agree. Monks aren't mentioned at all in the PHB's description of the Weave (all other "magical" classes are), so manipulating ki is most likely not at all related to the Weave. And since (I believe) the AMF disrupts the Weave, the monk really should have access to all abilities.

[R.Shackleford]

I can't find the text for this. Can you give me a page number?

EDIT: I found it in the DMG. DM'll probably let it work but DMG is not legal for AL play.

Actually, because of the ruling over rules mentality of 5e, and the gross negligence of oversight for AL, almost everything is legal.

You don't use the "climb onto a bigger creature" action. You say "I want to climb onto this bigger creature" the DM (especially if they have read the DMG says "I recall rules for that, I'll just use that instead of making something up on the fly".

The climb onto bigger creatures is a grapple check, more or less, so it isn't like the DM would be out of line to allow it.

Besides, I've seriously played Exalted during AL and the others got XP for their AL characters (they said they go to cons and stuff, idk if that matters). If "climb onto a bigger creature" is bad but playing an entirely different system isnt...


Edit





I'm inclined to agree. Monks aren't mentioned at all in the PHB's description of the Weave (all other "magical" classes are), so manipulating ki is most likely not at all related to the Weave. And since (I believe) the AMF disrupts the Weave, the monk really should have access to all abilities.

I see nothing about the Weave in the spell description.

Anti-Magic Field

8th-level abjuration

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (10-foot-radius sphere)
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of powdered iron or iron filings)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

A 10-foot-radius invisible sphere of antimagic surrounds you. This area is divorced from the magical energy that suffuses the multiverse. Within the sphere, spells can’t be cast, summoned creatures disappear, and even magic items become mundane. Until the spell ends, the sphere moves with you, centered on you.

Spells and other magical effects, except those created by an artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the sphere and can’t protrude into it. A slot expended to cast a suppressed spell is consumed. While an effect is suppressed, it doesn’t function, but the time it spends suppressed counts against its duration.

Targeted Effects: Spells and other magical effects, such as magic missile and charm person, that target a creature or an object in the sphere have no effect on that target.

Areas of Magic: The area of another spell or magical effect, such as fireball, can’t extend into the sphere. If the sphere overlaps an area of magic, the part of the area that is covered by the sphere is suppressed. For example, the flames created by a wall of fire are suppressed within the sphere, creating a gap in the wall if the overlap is large enough.

Spells: Any active spell or other magical effect on a creature or an object in the sphere is suppressed while the creature or object is in it.

Magic Items: The properties and powers of magic items are suppressed in the sphere. For example, a +1 longsword in the sphere functions as a nonmagical longsword. A magic weapon’s properties and powers are suppressed if it is used against a target in the sphere or wielded by an attacker in the sphere. If a magic weapon or a piece of magic ammunition fully leaves the sphere (for example, if you fire a magic arrow or throw a magic spear at a target outside the sphere), the magic of the item ceases to be suppressed as soon as it exits.

Magical Travel: Teleportation and planar travel fail to work in the sphere, whether the sphere is the destination or the departure point for such magical travel. A portal to another location, world, or plane of existence, as well as an opening to an extradimensional space such as that created by the rope trick spell, temporarily closes while in the sphere.

Creatures and Objects: A creature or object summoned or created by magic temporarily winks out of existence in the sphere. Such a creature instantly reappears once the space the creature occupied is no longer within the sphere.

Dispel Magic: Spells and magical effects such as dispel magic have no effect on the sphere. Likewise, the spheres created by different antimagic field spells don’t nullify each other.

Soo...


Ki is straight up called magic in the Monk chapter. Ki usage is effected by AMF.

[Dalebert]

Actually, because of the ruling over rules mentality of 5e, and the gross negligence of oversight for AL, almost everything is legal.

That seems a bit harsh. It's just a club fueled almost completely by volunteers. It's not like they have the resources to have paid DMs enforcing everything. If they tried to go that route, it would be very costly to play. It stands to reason that the rules of a club will be enforced primarily via honor system.

That said, it actually empowers DMs to make rulings at their table for anything that's not clearly spelled out in the legal sources, like the PHB. I can bring this up to the DM and he may agree with me. I just can't point to it and say "See, I can do this." since it's not a legal source.

It's an outlet for complaints if one comes up, which seems rare. For instance, if my shadow monk was injured badly and standing next to a very dangerous mob in dim lighting and decided to teleport to another area of dim lighting to escape, and the DM said "no" and gave a very flimsy reason, and then my character got killed as a result, then I would likely have a valid complaint for saying the DM was not respecting the rules that say my character can do that.

[R.Shackleford]

That seems a bit harsh. It's just a club fueled almost completely by volunteers. It's not like they have the resources to have paid DMs enforcing everything. If they tried to go that route, it would be very costly to play. It stands to reason that the rules of a club will be enforced primarily via honor system.

That said, it actually empowers DMs to make rulings at their table for anything that's not clearly spelled out in the legal sources, like the PHB. I can bring this up to the DM and he may agree with me. I just can't point to it and say "See, I can do this." since it's not a legal source.

It's an outlet for complaints if one comes up, which seems rare. For instance, if my shadow monk was injured badly and standing next to a very dangerous mob in dim lighting and decided to teleport to another area of dim lighting to escape, and the DM said "no" and gave a very flimsy reason, and then my character got killed as a result, then I would likely have a valid complaint for saying the DM was not respecting the rules that say my character can do that.

The point is that with the DMG the DM wouldn't need to just make something up. You want to climb on a creature? There is already rules for that. Now should a DM make different rules just for the sake of not using the rules in the DMG?

It isn't about "everything is legal" it is about telling your DM you are going to attempt to do "X" and the DM telling you how to get it done. The DM should use the DMG "climb onto bigger creature" action, AL or not, so they don't have to make up new rules and later try to remember to be consistent with those rulings.

The AL rules for DMs are not enforced in the slightest, if there are even any, you would have to do something like stab someone for wotc to maybe get involved (I know physically threatening someone didn't get a DM in trouble). So making rulings on climbing a creature based on the rules in the DMG is way under their radar*.

*of course knowing wotc that is the type of thing they actually would freak out about and not the fact that Exalted is being ran and XP is awarded for the players 5e characters.

[Barbarian Horde]

Wish they would of listed flurry of blows with a better description similar to 3.5 material. Cause to call that magic is a bad joke.


When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. Now this ability is considered a "Ki" ability?

[HeyBJ]

Wish they would of listed flurry of blows with a better description similar to 3.5 material. Cause to call that magic is a bad joke.

Especially in a world where action surge is completely mundane.

[Barbarian Horde]

LOL better throw up an anti magic field so the monk can't throw an extra hit. Tis wizardry harry.

God that's just terrible.

[R.Shackleford]

LOL better throw up an anti magic field so the monk can't throw an extra hit. Tis wizardry harry.

God that's just terrible.

That's not even remotely what has been shown.

Martial Arts

At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two- handed or heavy property.

You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield:

You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of Table: The Monk.
When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. For example, if you take the Attack action and attack with a quarterstaff, you can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, assuming you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn.
Certain monasteries use specialized forms of the monk weapons. For example, you might use a club that is two lengths of wood connected by a short chain (called a nunchaku) or a sickle with a shorter, straighter blade (called a kama). Whatever name you use for a monk weapon, you can use the game statistics provided for the weapon.

Ki

Starting at 2nd level, your training allows you to harness the mystic energy of ki. Your access to this energy is represented by a number of ki points. Your monk level determines the number of points you have, as shown in the Ki Points column of Table: The Monk.

You can spend these points to fuel various ki features. You start knowing three such features: Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind. You learn more ki features as you gain levels in this class.

When you spend a ki point, it is unavailable until you finish a short or long rest, at the end of which you draw all of your expended ki back into yourself. You must spend at least 30 minutes of the rest meditating to regain your ki points.

Some of your ki features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:

Ki save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier

Flurry of Blows

Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.

Patient Defense

You can spend 1 ki point to take the Dodge action as a bonus action on your turn.

Step of the Wind

You can spend 1 ki point to take the Disengage or Dash action as a bonus action on your turn, and your jump distance is doubled for the turn.


===

See the difference? Martial Arts (BA attack) doesn't rely on Ki whereas Flurry of Blows does.


And no, it isn't terrible, its consistent. Any magical effects get suppressed while in the AMF, from cantrips to ki.

Unless you want an even more fiddly game?

[Barbarian Horde]

It's fine after reading multiple topics & replies. I also now believe by raw it's considered a magical ability(ki). It's just a really, really bad joke. Flurry of blows relies on ki in this version. No Ki is unusable in AMF making it impossible to use inside the AoE.

Great job WoTC way to screw it up. If I host 5e game in the next year I will not allow AMF to affect monk abilities. That just gimps the whole class making it unusable almost. Rather play a rogue, barbarian, fighter, or a ranger instead. Unless rage is considered magical or sneak attack... hahaha

[R.Shackleford]

It's fine after reading multiple topics & replies. I also now believe by raw it's considered a magical ability(ki). It's just a really, really bad joke. Flurry of blows relies on ki in this version. No Ki is unusable in AMF making it impossible to use inside the AoE.

Great job WoTC way to screw it up. If I host 5e game in the next year I will not allow AMF to affect monk abilities. That just gimps the whole class making it unusable almost. Rather play a rogue, barbarian, fighter, or a ranger instead. Unless rage is considered magical or sneak attack... hahaha


There is no screw up.

Martial Arts (no ki) gives you an additional attack (not twf)

Flurry of Blows gives you two additional attacks (not twf) in the same amount of time as the Martial Arts. You are essentially breaking physics with how fast you can punch, kick, or head butt.

The monk is actually a fantastic class and is much more balanced (versus the game) than the Fighter or Ranger. The Rogue may be the best martial class designed though.

[HeyBJ]

Flurry of Blows gives you two additional attacks (not twf) in the same amount of time as the Martial Arts. You are essentially breaking physics with how fast you can punch, kick, or head butt.

But a Fighter can action surge to get 4 attacks through completely mundane means without breaking physics or being otherwise magical. I think that's a big part of the complaint; it doesn't seem like it should be magic-based, especially considering what other classes can do with just training and experience.

[Barbarian Horde]

Inside a AMF a monk loses
Flurry of blows (additional hit)
Patient Defense
Step on the Wind
Deflect Missles additional effect to throw back arrows
Stunning Strike
Purity of Body
Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Diamond soul
Empty body

--------------
As for the subclasses it almost makes using a large majority of the available skills useless?


I could understand if the monk was a caster. They aren't though so i don't understand the logic behind wotc choice to effectively gut the class inside of a AMF.

[R.Shackleford]

But a Fighter can action surge to get 4 attacks through completely mundane means without breaking physics or being otherwise magical. I think that's a big part of the complaint; it doesn't seem like it should be magic-based, especially considering what other classes can do with just training and experience.

It's not magic based, but they didn't get to point B along the same route. Fighters may be able to take a additional action once every so often but the Monk can use a series of actions multiple times per short rest.

Besides, the fighter is so one dimensional that it needs to not be affected by the AMF or else it would be even more sad.



Inside a AMF a monk loses
Flurry of blows (additional hit)
Patient Defense
Step on the Wind
Deflect Missles additional effect to throw back arrows
Stunning Strike
Purity of Body
Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Diamond soul
Empty body

--------------
As for the subclasses it almost makes using a large majority of the available skills useless?


I could understand if the monk was a caster. They aren't though so i don't understand the logic behind wotc choice to effectively gut the class inside of a AMF.

Monks are, essentially, partial casters.

They use magic (ki) to improve themselves and sometimes alter stuff around them. Monks are not a martial class. Monks are more like Paladins or Rangers.

The monk looses so much in an AMF because they gain so much outside of it.

And really, when it comes to beholders, I rather take a monk than a fighter. This way the Beholder is more likely to use their AMF on my monk which is exactly what you want it to do.

[Dalebert]

As for the subclasses it almost makes using a large majority of the available skills useless?

Not shadow monks. It describes something about being one with shadows or something but says nothing about ki except for the part about casting certain spells. Those spells are obviously AMF-vulnerable. If ki is the part that makes it magic, then shadow monks can teleport and turn invisible inside an AMF. Neither is an actual spell and neither makes any mention of ki. Those effects are, however, vulnerable to bright light which is a lot more common.

Regardless of how the DM rules on the AMF stuff, my monk is SO going to bend that beholder over his knee and spank it. I'll have invisibility (to start) and Darkness. It can AMF the Darkness for sure and maybe the invisibility (up to the DM I guess) but it can't do that AND shoot me with its rays so I'm pretty much invulnerable to its rays either way. I'll just run outside of the cone with my ridiculous movement and teleport to the top of it, or just teleport anyway depending on whether the DM rules that AMF only affects ki things. Then I'll keep it stun-locked. If I fail to stun it, I have Mobile, so I'll just get away from it before it can bite me and potentially make me lose Darkness. However, we may have allied drow with us who will cast Darkness for me in which case I won't have to worry about losing concentration.