PDA

View Full Version : Original System New armour system.



Avianmosquito
2016-08-29, 12:24 PM
So, I've been unsatisfied with my game's armour system for a while, and since I had a lot of time to think the last couple days, I've come up with a replacement.

Damage reduction:
Damage reduction is pretty straightforward. X damage comes off each attack of Y damage type, DR 5 (Slash) means that you take 5 less damage from slash attacks, and there's no minimum damage. This only applies to kinetic attacks. However, some attacks also have a penetration score, which allows them to bypass that amount of damage reduction. So if that slash attack had 2 penetration, then your DR 5 would only result in you taking 3 less damage instead of 5. While extra penetration beyond the amount of DR an enemy has may seem worthless, it actually is quite helpful for dealing with armour points, see the section on armour points below. Note that if an attack is reduced to half of its damage or below, it can no longer score critical hits. Worse, if an attack is reduced to a quarter of its damage or below, it is automatically downgraded to minor damage and can only affect an opponent's health.

Energy resistance:
Energy resistance may initially look like damage reduction, but there's two important differences. Energy resistance is not affected by penetration, and it also only absorbs a set amount of damage per round. So if you have an ER 5 (heat), the first 5 points of heat damage each round do not affect you, but any further damage is unaffected. This means that if you can land enough hits, any amount of ER can be overcome by any level of energy damage, but it is a solid amount of protection, often completely trouncing the first attack, and it's not like enemies can hit you an infinite amount of times each round.

Plate points:
Plate points, very simply, take damage for you. These are provided by hard armour plating and nothing else (see below), and they absorb incoming damage AFTER your damage reduction and energy resistance have done their parts. The type of damage and the severity of it is irrelevant, only the quantity matters. However, any penetration left over from defeating your damage reduction also damages your plates, and does so before your damage does. So if you had a DR 4 and the opponent attacks you for 5 damage with 5 penetration, they'll bypass your DR and deal 6 damage to your plates, and if you only had 5 plate points then they'll get through for 1 damage. Plate points, unlike energy resistance, do NOT come back on their own and the plates cannot be repaired, so they must be replaced to get your plate points back, and since this isn't a video game there won't be plates just lying around everywhere, and you can't add damaged plates together to get more points, you can only replace a damaged plate with a more intact one.

Barrier points:
Energy shields, in the highest-tech settings, providing a recharging version of plate points. They work EXACTLY the same, but with two notable differences. First, they recharge themselves over time. Second, they take damage BEFORE your DR and ER can mitigate any of it. This makes barriers points ultimately easier to break and low-penetration rounds like shotgun pellets are not as crippled against them as they are against plates, but since they come back over time (slowly) they still work just fine to protect you. Barrier points are provided by energy shields, but they actually can be provided magically as well, such as the non-recharging points provided by the "barrier" spell, and the recharging points surrounding demons naturally.

Under-layer:
Your under-layer is your lower layer of apparel. It provides DR and ER, raises effective ambient temperature by a LOT more than the other layers, and is great in the cold but murder in the heat.

Over-layer:
Your over-layer is your upper layer of apparel. Obviously. It works almost identically to your under-layer and is really just separate to allow you more weight options and the ability to mix and match weights and material types. Over-layers are the same weight as the other two layers, but they raise temperature less than under-layers.

Plates:
Your plates are stone, ceramic, glass or extremely hard metal and are included in your armour as they are functionally impenetrable and must be broken to damage the wearer, obviously providing your plate points.

Locational armour:
Armour is locational in this game. Somebody may seek to save weight by only armouring their torso, as it is both a very vital area and the easiest part of the body to hit, but that means their armour will only protect their torso. Somebody might also, for instance, more heavily armour one arm if the other arm is behind a shield, very common in more primitive settings. Additionally, if you have plating for multiple parts, their armour points are separate. If every part of your body has 20 PP, an enemy dealing 15 damage to one part and 15 to another will not break through your armour, they'll just reduce the plates in both areas to 1/4 PP. Barriers, however, are NOT locational, and if an enemy has 20 BP, dealing 15 to one part and 15 to another will get through with 10 points of damage, though that may be mitigated by armour afterwards.

Material types and type advantage:
There are four material types, which only apply to under-layers and over-layers. Material type is important for type advantage, as they provide double DR and ER against certain damage types. There are no material types for plates, since PP works equally well on all damage types and that's all they provide.

"Organic" apparel is made of low-cost, cheap organic materials that aren't especially good at stopping anything and isn't generally meant to be protective and it has no type advantages.

"Ballistic" apparel is somewhat more expensive apparel is made of extremely high strength materials, and provides double DR against puncture attacks (such as bullets, hence the name) and literally nothing else.

"Padded" apparel is an even more expensive apparel that is thick and complex, providing protection by compressing and distributing impact forces over a wider area, making it provide double DR against bludgeon, and it also insulates well, making it provide double ER against cold and increase temperature twice as much.

"Metal" apparel is a very expensive apparel type that is, obviously, made of metal. This is the only material generally considered armour regardless of weight, and the reason why becomes clear as soon as you see its list of strengths. Metal's hardness makes it provide double DR against slash and pierce damage, its high conductivity spreads heat out and channels electricity to the ground, so it provides double ER against heat and electric damage, increases temperature half as much and it even provides extra resistance against radiation (known as "curse" in primitive settings) due to its high density. That said, its cost is very high and when metal armour is abundant people begin using puncture and bludgeon damage more often.

Weight and quality:
Apparel weight is fairly straight-forward.

Light apparel is very light. A full suit at normal weight would be 1.25-2kg per layer, depending on what extras you went with, and would only weigh in at 3.75-6kg if you wore all three layers on all parts. It also provides the smallest temperature increase. However, the over and under layers each only provide a base DR and ER of 1 (2 with a type advantage), have the least integrity and the plates only provide 5 PP.

Medium apparel is four times as heavy. A full suit would, therefore be 5-8kg per layer, and with all layers 15-24kg. It provides twice as much of a temperature increase, as well. It provides a DR and ER of 2 (4 with a type advantage) per layer, has twice as much integrity and the plates provide 20 PP. With all three layers, the DR/ER 4 (8 with type advantage) and PP 20 provide a very solid layer of protection that will defeat weaker weapons entirely.

Heavy apparel is four times as heavy as medium, a colossal 20-32kg PER LAYER, with all layers being 60-96kg. That is such an absurd weight that nobody will ever have all three layers be heavy over their whole body, and no such set of armour has ever been made, much less used, in all of real-world history. However, its protection is nothing to scoff at, a DR and ER of 4 (8 with a type advantage) per layer, it has twice the integrity of medium and the plates provide a colossal 80 PP.

Quality is also pretty straightforward. Materials have a set quality, rated from 0-5 stars. 0-star materials provide the traits listed above, but every star increases all provided DR, ER, PP and integrity by 20%. Those 5-star materials available only in the most technologically advanced realms only providing twice as much of everything might not sound like a large enough increase, but it is absolutely game-changing in practice and there is simply no comparing a 0-star to a 5-star.

And that's it. That's the new armour system. It is still fairly new, so I might need to make revisions later, but that's how it stands right now. So, let's see it in action in each of the sixteen realms, shall we?


In this test, a sentry for the Root Garden is going to be shot by a Daywalker raider with a hunting bow. The root garden sentry is a wall guard for the wealthiest city in all of Limbo, his armour being made of fine copper with clean lines between well-polished surfaces and patinated accents. He has a light basic under-layer of simple hides with a thin tunic, hide boots, gloves and cowl. Over this, he wears a heavy metal over-layer on his torso and head, those being a copper breastplate and nasal helm, and for added protection against projectiles he wears medium stone plating on his torso, sandwiched between his tunic and copper vest. In total, his DR/ER is 1 on his arms and legs, 5 on his torso and head (9 against slash, pierce, heat, electricity and curse), and he has a PP of 20 for his torso only. His armour is fairly light despite the thickness of his breastplate, as the breastplate only weighs 6kg, the helmet 2kg, the stone trauma plates 1.5kg, and all the hide together 1.75kg, for a total 11.25kg.

The hunting bow deals 5 pierce damage and at full draw has 5 penetration. If it strikes his torso, it will be negated almost entirely, dealing a single point of damage to his armour points and needing to hit 21 times to cause a single point of damage, so we can safely rule out this angle of attack. (Not to mention that at 50m it will lose a point of penetration and start doing absolutely nothing.) Striking the head is better as damage will actually be dealt right away, but only one point, though the archer could always perform an armour-bypass shot as the sentry is not wearing a full helmet. (Armour bypass shots are shots aimed at the head that take many more action points to fire than normal, and they completely ignore the target's armour by striking their exposed face or neck. Full helmets make you immune to this.) Striking the arms or legs, however, is very effective as the penetration of the bow allows it to completely ignore their simple hide tunic from farther away than anyone could possibly land an arrow. (Anything shorter than 250 meters, in fact.) The archer will have difficulty landing shots on the legs and especially the arms, and the arrow's 5 damage will have difficulty crippling the arms and especially the legs, but he is more or less forced to try as if he intends to kill this man a critical to the limbs is about his only chance of fatally wounding him. Even then, an arm or leg shot is easy to treat as the hard to treat internal bleeding pierce damage wound cause elsewhere does not occur on the limbs, and 5 points of external bleeding isn't too hard to treat even in Limbo.

Overall, this raider would be much better off not trying. Arm and leg shots are difficult, headshots more so and especially armour bypassing shots, and that sentry also has a hunting bow and his arrows can easily penetrate the thin lead suit the raider is wearing to protect against the "cursed" sunlight.


In this test, an anubite warrior is going to be attacking a raider who is wearing a thick wool tunic. This tunic only covers his torso, arms and legs and does not come with gloves, and the man is additionally wearing sandals that provide extremely minimal protection. The tunic is very thick, considered a basic medium under-layer with 1-star quality, and his sandals are extremely unprotective, considered an extra piece of a basic light under-layer of the same quality (but that's okay, footwear only protects the legs from ground-based hazards and not attacks). He has no PP, his DR and ER are both 2 everywhere but his completely exposed head (though, as mentioned, his legs only get a DR 1 against ground hazards). As you are about to see, that is not nearly good enough, but the tunic only weighs 4.5kg despite its extreme thickness and the sandals only add 0.25kg, so 4.75kg total and it's likely he will be under his first encumbrance threshold (10kg) even with his weapons.

Technically, the khopesh can both stab and slash. (I know it seems hard to believe, but it's true.) However, it is primarily a slashing weapon, and that is how the anubite is about to use it. The swing deals 8 base damage, 1-5 from skill, and then gets a strength bonus. The anubite is probably going to be quite competent, so let's say he's an expert and gets 4 damage from skill. Since most attacks are light attacks and this is a one-handed weapon, he'll only get 1/8 of his strength added on, and as a supernatural assassin his strength will likely be fairly good, so let's say 16 strength and give him a bonus of 2, and the 1-star material gives it a 20% increase to its strength bonus that doesn't amount to anything. This means a total damage of 14, against the pitiful 2 DR of the raider's tunic, and the poor idiot takes 12 damage everywhere but his head, and 14 on the head. This means a fatal wound can be inflicted in a single critical hit just about anywhere, as stopping 12 points of external bleeding is difficult in such a primitive setting.

This guy had better be damned careful, because this anubite only needs to get in one good hit and go on the defensive until he bleeds to death. (Of course, the anubite has similar concerns, he isn't even wearing a shirt.)


In this test, a wendigo seems to have gone a bit farther south than normal, and a jaguar warrior seems to have gone a bit farther north. The resulting fight will be pretty brutal, but how does his armour fair? The man is wearing a heavy padded under-layer composed of brine-soaked cotton quilting (1 star quality) that provides a solid DR 4 against most damage types (9 against bludgeon and cold, but neither will come up here). Over that, he's wearing a full-body treated jaguar hide which counts as a basic light over-layer (0 star quality) and provides him a DR of 1 over his entire body. To provide extra head protection and for decoration, he wears a medium ceramic helmet (1 star quality) in the shape of a jaguar's head, providing him a decent 24 PP on his head. This suit is fairly light, too, as that heavy padded vest is only 6kg, the entire jaguar hide is only 1.25kg and the helmet (notably NOT a full helmet) is only 0.5kg, for a total 9.25kg.

The wendigo's claws are lethal, but they're still only natural weapons and have no base damage. Skill is not a factor in their damage, instead increasing their attack, so it's all about strength. Wendigos have very high strength but it does vary heavily between individuals, so let's give it 24, which is fairly typical. This attack will deal 3 slash damage on light attacks (which are the most practical), 6 on medium attacks (which a lot of animals use almost all the time, so this is the most likely attack) and 12 on heavy attacks (which are a niche option that will get you killed if you use them in most situations). This is all slash damage. So light attacks will do flat nothing on the torso, and only 2 damage everywhere else, meaning that without an armour bypass shot it will need 13 hits to cause damage to the head and take multiple criticals to stand a good chance of killing while striking the arms or legs, not to mention the unlikelihood of crippling with 2 damage hits against somebody who has a shield and will be blocking most of your attacks. The more likely medium hits will do 1 damage to the torso, but 5 elsewhere and break through that helmet on the fifth hit, but more importantly it can cripple in only two arm shots, and criticals will cause life-threatening bleeding fairly easily. Heavy attacks are unlikely even for a wendigo, but they would deal an impressive 7 damage to the torso, 11 elsewhere, smash through the ceramic helmet for massive damage on hit 3 and cause lethal wounds anywhere on the body.

So, really, the armour didn't do well enough to keep the wendigo from inflicting fatal wounds, but remember that jaguar warriors are no pushovers and this creature still has to get around a shield and a macuahuitl without getting hacked to death, so despite the wendigo's large size and impressive suite of supernatural powers this is actually a fairly even fight.


In this test, a forest hunter (a man-sized feathered bipedal reptile), will be attacking a tribal shaman. This man is wearing the traditional medium stone plates used by the shamans of most tribes in this region, providing him a reasonable 20 PP everywhere on his body, over the top of a thick fur garment that counts as a padded under layer and provides him a DR/ER 2, 4 against bludgeon and cold. Both of these are full-body, and this weighs in at a total 16kg. Ultimately this suit is NOT very practical, but it's religious attire and practicality is not the prime concern.

The forest hunter is not nearly as strong as the wendigo in the previous example, and giving it a strength of 12 is about right. It will deal 1 damage with light attacks, 3 with medium and 6 with heavy. As this prevents light attacks from inflicting any damage and even medium will only inflict 1 damage, heavy is where it's at with 4 damage. Even so, this means it will take 21 medium hits or 6 heavy hits to cause damage to any particular body part.

So, for the most part, the stupid creature will be slashing and flailing trying to break stone with its claws, while the shaman grabs it and easily beats it to death with an ivory walking stick. The shaman's armour will be damaged, but he will be uninjured and the 30kg of good, pit-roasted dinosaur is a nice consolation for all the work the tribal craftsmen will have to do to replace the damaged pieces.


In this test, a human with a bearded axe will try to kill a dwarven shield maiden in mail armour. The dwarf, notably, has a natural DR 2 that will help protect her. Her armour is a full-body suit of heavy iron mail, which is a heavy metal under-layer of respectable quality (1 star) and provides a DR 4, 9 with the type advantage it has against that axe. She also wears a heavy iron helmet that provides her a solid DR of 9 against that axe for her head on top of what her coif already provides, for a massive total of 20 DR on her head. She only wears medium gloves and boots made of treated hide (1 star), but that isn't overly relevant when hacked with an axe. (Well, the gloves are if you're blocking. That's what they're for.) The mail weighs in at 20kg, the helmet adds 2kg, the boots add 1kg and so do the gloves. So in total, 24kg.

The man's axe is a slashing weapon that has 8 base damage, gains penetration from skill and if this man is proficient should get 4 from skill. Let's say his strength is 16, fairly typical for a male warrior, so he'll have 2 from strength with a light attack, and while the sword's 1-star material gives a 20% increase to the strength bonus, it's still 2. That gives him 10 damage and 4 penetration, and means he deals 3 damage through her armour and thick hide anywhere but her head, where his axe bounces off her helmet to no serious ill effect.

Overall, he can deal damage but he likely won't do that much of it. Since you cannot crit if dealing half damage or less, he will be leaving significant, but not fatal, wounds. His only real option is an armour bypass shot, slamming his axe through her face. That is very hard to actually pull off, and she's a shieldmaiden, so she'll just stab him a bunch and then block the hit. Fortunately for him, he's wearing the same armour, and although he has a little less DR because he's human he's also a LOT faster than her. It's unlikely either of them can conclusively damage the other with his axe and her sword just not doing enough damage to end the fight, so this fight will take a while.


A shofet (judge) is trying to execute a convicted hell knight who just isn't having it. How well will the shofet's sword deal with the hell knight's divine armour? Well, the hell knight's divine armour provides it a stellar DR 10, ER 40 and his soul barrier has a strength of 20 that recharges at 5/round. Obviously, as this is a part of the hell knight's body, it doesn't weigh anything.

The shofet will be using a headsman's scimitar, a two-handed scimitar that is both useful in battle and an effective executioner's blade. Even with this blade, two hands and a super heavy swing, decapitating somebody in a single swing is extremely difficult, and thankfully for them shofet are extremely large and physically strong, this one having a massive 48 strength (but only 10 constitution and agility, which is horrifically low for a divine being). His sword swings, if he was actually performing a proper execution at the moment, would deal 12 damage from the sword's base damage (the "coup de grace" talent doubles base damage against enemies on the ground), his skill with the blade (likely mastery) would add 5, and he would have 48 from his strength, the 2-star material increasing it to 67, all of which would be doubled by the coup de grace talent and bring us to 168, well over the 60 required to cut off somebody's head. In fact, we're talking about enough power to slice somebody in half. The demon's soul barrier and divine armour would block a whopping 30 of that, but that isn't nearly enough to prevent a decapitation, or even a bisection. However, he isn't executing him, as this turned into a fight, so he's going to be making light attacks that deal 25 damage, the first of which will be completely tanked, the first hit each round from there on out doing 10 and the rest doing 15.

While this execution went straight to hell when the demon decided to fight back, it's still a guy with a sword against a guy without a sword, and shouldn't take long.


In this test, a myrmidon will be stabbed by a roman legionnaire with a gladius. The myrmidon's musculata is a heavy bronze (1 star metal) overlayer for the torso with a medium linen (2 star basic) underlayer for his arms, legs and torso (the heavy tunic worn under this armour). The myrmidon also has medium bronze overlayers on his arms and legs. The musculata weighs 6kg and gives a hefty DR of 4, 9 when strong like it is now. The heavy tunic weighs 4.5kg and will add 2 to that DR. The metal on the arms and legs is not insignificant either, weighing in at 2kg for the legs and 1kg for the arms, giving a DR of 4 against the sword (2 normally) on top of that from the tunic. The myrmidon's corinthian helmet is a heavy, bronze overlayer providing a solid DR of 9 against the sword and weighing 2kg. Finally, myrmidons have a natural DR of 1 (from the "bronze skin" perk) that should help a little bit here. The total weight of this set is 16.5kg.

The sword is a good stabber and a good chopper, in fact equally good at both things despite the misconception that it was purely a stabbing weapon so many people have never bothered fact-checking. It has a base damage of 8, gets penetration for swings and thrusts from skill, and the legionnaire will be adept with it and thus get 3 penetration. The legionnaire will also be fairly strong (if not NEARLY as strong as a myrmidon) and 16 strength is a decent estimate, so +2 damage on cuts and penetration on thrusts to start with, though the 1-star material is not enough to increase that. We're looking at a thrust here, so 8 damage with 5 penetration. Against the torso it faces a LOT of resistance, 12 total DR, and will only do 1 damage. Stabbing for the head it will face 10 DR and only do 3 damage. Even on the arms and legs, it faces 7 DR, but should still deal 6 damage, so stabbing (or cutting) the arms and legs is the way to go.

The armour makes this fight a lot harder, but it doesn't ruin the legionnaire's chances. The problem is that the myrmidon is already a better fighter, and this doesn't help. Even though the legionnaire is wearing lorica hamata and his opponent's weapon is going to have a hard time as well, he is still probably going to lose this fight just because the other fighter is more skilled than he is.


In this test, an ashigaru will try to kill a samurai with a musket. The samurai is wearing a medium full-body suit of steel mail with all the extras (3-star metal) which provides his entire body a DR 3 (it will not be strong against a bullet) and only weigh 8kg, a medium lamellar cuirass (3-star basic) that will provide his torso and legs DR 3 and weigh 2.5kg, a medium iron kabuto/mempo combo (3-star, treated as a full helmet) that will provide a DR 3 for his head (and make him immune to armour bypass shots and only weigh 1.5kg, and a set of 1kg lamellar arm guards that will provide a DR 3. He also wears lamellar gloves and boots, which aren't relevant to this attack but will add 2kg to the total weight, bringing it up to 18kg.

The musket deals 15 damage with no penetration. You can probably already see how this will end. Striking any part of the body, it faces a DR of 6 and will deal 9 damage, enough to critically hit and leave a life-threatening injury. It is especially likely to kill if it hits the torso or head, and honestly the arm and leg wounds are really unlikely to kill even in what is effectively the fantasy afterlife version of the sengoku period. However, the shot will not STOP the samurai no matter where it hits, so the ashigaru will almost certainly be killed even if he fatally wounds the samurai with this shot, so the worst case scenario for the samurai is still taking the ashigaru with him. Best case scenario, of course, being that the shot misses.



In this test, we're going to have a man attempt to break through a set of celtic mail using a longsword. While this is just another test with mail, we're using a longsword. The armour is not all that different from what the dwarven shield maiden was wearing before, only this celt isn't wearing another armour layer and the mail is of higher quality low steel (2 star) so it provides 5-11 DR instead of 4-9. This woman is also wearing a helmet, but no coif, so it evens out. She is also wearing medium treated leather (2 star) gloves and boots, but those aren't really relevant. This celt does not have any extra DR, so that's all she gets. The total weight of her armour is 22kg.

The longsword is made out of low steel (2 star), deals 12 base damage and as this man is adept with it should get a 3-point penetration boost from skill. As it is a two-handed weapon, it is getting twice the strength bonus, and if we give the man a strength of 16 it will be a bonus of 4, 5 after material quality adds to it. So this weapon is presently dealing 12 damage with 8 penetration against an opponent's 11 DR, leaving it dealing 9 damage, which is over half and capable of dealing critical hits. Overall, the point of a longsword was just too much for the mail, even as heavy as it was, and unlike the dwarf woman, this woman is probably going to die.



In this test, we're finally using some magic. Which is about time, because I mentioned energy resistance and so far have never demonstrated it. You already know how mail performs, this set is identical to that of the celt in the last test, but it's being worn under a heavy fur coat that covers the entire body (0 star, it's just for warmth), and comes complete with padded boots and gloves instead of leather. The total weight is 28kg, and this man's armour gives him a total ER of 9.

The disintegrate spell is a nasty one, deals a flat 10 damage and as it deals force damage nothing is weak or strong against it, it even bypasses supernatural defences of all forms. However, drilling through this much material is a bit problematic, and it ends up only doing 1 damage. Of course, an armour bypass would bring that back up to full, but 1 damage is what you get for any hits on the armour itself. This guy will be fine, at least from this shot, but this spell can be used twice per day. And if you use it the second time in the same round (and hit the same part of the target), you'll find it meeting no energy resistance the second time around, and then it'll do full damage and inflict a life-threatening wound on the second hit, because force is also the few energy damage type that can cause bleeding, and it causes bleeding both internal and external.


In this test, a female hell knight will throw a fireball (the exploding one) at a soldier wearing IOTV. This is both an energy damage test and an explosive test. The soldier is wearing fatigues, which despite being 3-star still provide a DR of 1 and weighs 1.125kg. Above that, however, he is wearing a set of modern, high-quality ballistic armour and modern, high-quality plates, both heavy. The ballistic armour is a 4-star heavy layer weighing 6kg for his torso, providing him a DR/ER of 7, which would be 14 if this attack dealt puncture damage. The plates are another 6kg and provide a downright massive 144 PP. He also wears a helmet, which is a single heavy over layer weighing in at 2kg, and does the same as his vest (sans the plates) in terms of protection. His boots and gloves are only light, and only add 0.5kg to the final weight. In total, his armour weighs 15.625kg, and provides him a DR 8 on his torso, 7 on his head and 1 everywhere else, and with 144 PP to burn through to damage his torso on top of all that DR, his torso is unlikely to be hurt by just about anything we throw at it for a long while.

Meanwhile, the hell knightess uses an explosive fireball at short range. This deals a base of 5 heat damage in a cone in front of where it detonates, hitting every part of the target. It is increased 10% by every point of perception, and she has 20 so this is a 15-damage attack. So it'll deal 8 damage to the man's head (which comes with 32 health damage due to the multiplier), none to the man's torso but will burn off 7 PP, and his arms and legs will take 14 damage (each leg coming with 7 health damage and each arm coming with 3), crippling his arms. At first glance, he looks thoroughly ****ed as the fireball can burn him so badly it cripples both his arms and takes him out of the fight, not to mention the fact that it costs him 52 health on the spot. There's two reasons why this (usually) isn't the case. First, the fireball's damage drops by 2 for every meter between the target and the blast and by 1 for every 5 meters the fireball had to fly before detonating, so it rarely does all that damage. Second, the reflex defence exists and reduces incoming blast and AoE damage by 1/4 of your agility score each time you use it (though as an active defence, it takes action points to use), and this man is in good shape and should have at least 12, probably more agility to reduce this by 3+. As a result, unless this is a very close range nearly direct hit, it won't actually cripple his arms and will instead just cause really horrific burns. (Though still, it's certainly an extremely powerful hit.)

This chick is going to cook him pretty good, and this exact match-up is the reason soldiers in the 2050s wear heavier armour with better arm and leg protection.

Also, this isn't given a specific name because it isn't actually the real-world interceptor armour with improved outer tactical vest and advanced combat helmet, it is only based on it and actually is both a little lighter and a little less protective.


In this test, an Asgardian diesel-powered automaton will be shot with a 10mm rifle. Before I get into this, I must first explain what the hell an automaton is, though you probably have an idea. Basically, automatons are enchanted machines, whose arms and legs are moved with pistons or hydraulics and controlled by magic, derive their power from steam or internal combustion engines, and whose bodies are controlled by a liquid crystal (called a "soul gem") placed inside their head. They are fully autonomous, as the "soul gem" is filled with the imprint of a once-living creature's mind, as the magitek in Asgard has gotten so advanced by now that they have figured out how to duplicate the process used to fake the afterlife, and synthesized the medium the gods created to facilitate mind-copying. This imprint controls the machine, and given time will operate it just as well as an actual body. I mean, sure, they killed somebody to put their mind inside this machine and it's a cold existence bereft of feeling and comfort, but... Uh... Well, there's no real bright side to that, the creation of these things is downright cruel and there's a good goddamned reason why they aren't used nearly as often in the top-tier realms. There's also a reason so many automatons are animal shaped, and that's because they often choose to use animals instead of people because murdering people to make their war machines work is just that ****ing terrible of a goddamned idea, and as much as it sucks to have to give some poor pooch a lethal injection it certainly is less assholic than murdering people for it. This is a magitek steampunk/dieselpunk (the dieselpunk tech is all fairly new and the obsolete steampunk tech is still widely available) setting intended to be on par with Sol in the 2050s, it's going to have some stuff like this.

This automaton is a newer diesel model and has a thick high-carbon steel plating that provides it a DR and ER 16, 32 against everything metal is strong against. It also inherently has (without this armour, which is removable as automatons are modular), a DR 16. So in total, its DR is an impressive 32. The additional armour seals the deal as the machine has quartz trauma plates that grant it 160 PP. This rifle has some work to do.

This rifle is a bolt-action rifle 10x80mm bolt-action rifle. It is a ****ing BEAST, dealing 7 damage with 32 penetration. This means it will penetrate that impressive 32 DR and damage the PP by 7. After PP is exhausted, it will do the exact same amount. But that said, exhausting PP will take 23 shots, the last of which will deal 1 damage. That is a LOT of shots with a rifle that, I remind you, is bolt-action. Yes, this automaton is tanky as ****, so much so that a heavy bolt-action rifle doesn't damage it until it has gone through four entire magazines and three extra shots. Oh, and did I mention that they all have to be on the same part of the machine? Because, you know, they kinda do. Imagine being that poor soldier, having to place 23 shots just to do ANY damage, and then having to land quite a few more to actually take the thing out, because as a machine it doesn't bleed and needs to actually be destroyed. Meanwhile, you've got a diesel-powered robot with a goddamned machine gun for an arm stumbling around trying to figure out where you are so it can ventilate you. And don't think it gets much better if you mass soldiers up and try to beat it through numbers, because now it knows where all of you are and can just mow you down with its machine gun.

Screw it. Somebody get me a bazooka.


In this test, a man in full plate will be shot with a musket. This will go better than you might think. Before that, I should explain what an überritter is. Überritters are basically super-knights, hence the name, given the best soldier-boosts available in Jotunheim and outfitted with the best available armour and weapons, put on a war horse that is equally boosted and armoured. They're MUCH cheaper than proxies and MUCH easier to transport, but not nearly so effective so they have to use numbers to override this difference. Expect to see überritters in every infantry unit, and even to see entire companies of überritters when somebody needs some **** to get done at all costs. They aren't quite normal infantry, but they're only equivalent to army rangers in terms of cost and rarity, and that's nutso.

An überritter has an excellent DR 4 entirely on its own, enough that it can just stand there and let you shoot it repeatedly with buckshot and take absolutely no damage. Oh, but that isn't all, it's wearing a full set of heavy high-carbon steel (3-star metal) full plate (DR 6, 12 with a type advantage, 32kg) with all the extras over medium high-carbon mail with all the extras (DR 3, 6 with a type advantage, 8kg). This is only a total 40kg, and while that's too heavy for a knight, it isn't that bad for a super soldier.

The musket ends up reduced to 2 damage and take entirely too many shots to have any real effect, especially since this is a musket and fires slow as hell.

I recommend, instead, trying something with better penetrating power. I know they are uncommon and expensive in huge parts of Jotunheim, but a rifle would be a big step up.


Svartalfaheim is extremely advanced. Interplanetary travel, kinetimechs (mini-mecha you control by physically moving the corresponding part of your body), directed energy weaponry and so much more grant an exceptional amount of power to a very small number of people who either can afford it, or have masters who can. Yes, masters. Did I mention that this is also a dystopian sci-fi where these things that should be awesome are instead ****ing terrifying, as they are wielded either by an assholic ruling class that is totally detached from reality as they're so rich they live in their own little world and never have to deal with reality, or else by the authoritarian morons in their servitude, who routinely use extreme force to get whatever they want and the regular people be damned? Kinda makes you wonder if this setting also has those lovely meetings with the masked gentleman at the docks.

This suit of heavy power armour sports a hyper-martensitic steel (basically, a very advanced maraging steel deferentially alloyed and hardened to perform better with the stresses of its purpose, which clearly makes it a 5-star metal) frame that provides it a hefty DR/ER 32, 64 against slash, pierce, heat and electricity. Underneath this is a supporting layer of carbon-nanotube armour (another 5 star material, this time for ballistic armour) that gives it a DR/ER 32, with 64 DR against puncture. Sandwiched between them are extremely hard plates of synthetic diamond (again a 5 star material, this time for hard plating) that gives it an incredible 640 PP. Even the 20mm cannons these soldiers often use as their primary weapons have difficulty breaching this armour.

Speaking of weapons they often use, let's look at this 5GW laser cannon, which is sometimes used as a shoulder-mounted weapon by these soldiers but is usually a mounted weapon. It fires a pulse for a single millisecond that delivers a devastating five MEGAJOULES of energy to the target. It deals a devastating 100 heat damage to the target directly struck, enough to knock some PP off even the strongest power armour, though its long recycle time prevents a second shot in that round without a second weapon, and multiple weapons concentrating fire will blast right through that armour fairly effectively, shattering the diamond through sheer thermal shock and blasting down the wearer. The explosion from each shot only deals 17 bludgeon damage and cannot damage power armour in the slightest, though it does heavy damage to personnel and structures.

Now, before you conclude, "Oh, well, they can deal with it. This weapon certainly seems to be doing the job.", remember that you need eight shots to inflict damage to the pilot (though it will be extremely heavy damage) and nine to immediately kill, plus an extra one for every round it takes to do this. And also, in case you forgot, this is a CANNON.



Alfheim is less dystopic than Svartalfaheim, though some might dispute how much given the massive millenia-old race war rampaging across it because even while dealing with massive external invasion by advanced aliens, goddamned skin colour is somehow still important enough for the elves who live there to wage war over. And yet, I suspect that even with their extreme racism, they are still less self-destructive than humans.

This machine, the purifier proxy, is a product of this world. Remember the automaton from Asgard? Well, a proxy is somewhat like an automaton, but not quite so... You know, EVIL. They are not autonomous, instead they are controlled by an operator remotely, with their mind and a magitek headset. The operator is unconscious, and effectively "becomes" the proxy, and while the physiological differences can be disorienting at first, it only takes practice before controlling it becomes second nature. Proxies are excellent from a military perspective as they are superior to infantry in combat and while much more expensive and somewhat harder to transport, the operator is not at risk during operation and is not lost if the unit is destroyed. They also don't have to murder somebody to make it work.

This proxy is much like the automaton from the previous page, but a lot more advanced. It uses modern servomotors and cables instead of pistons (though in some locations, pistons are still used), it's powered by a rechargeable battery, it's plated with maraging steel and boron carbide instead of high-carbon steel and diamond. That last one is the important part, it's up to a solid 18 ER from its frame, 18 ER from its armour and 200 PP. (Which means the rifle from the last test would only deal 3 damage, but that's not the point.)

On the other side of this is a magical device called a reality bomb. This is basically a handful of fire, force, gravity and spatial compression enchantments in a can, surrounding a set of conventional explosives and a tiny amount of radon. Upon detonation, everything compresses into a tiny space, the explosions detonate and are focused inward, and gravity is boosted, momentarily increasing the radon's density and temperature so high that the laws of physics begin to break down at the very centre of it, hence the name, though this breakdown of reality is only momentary and largely just results in a tiny fraction of the radon ceasing to exist as matter and in doing so releasing a massive amount of radiation, much of which will be attenuated by the atmosphere nearly instantly and such transform into yet more heat on top of all the obvious heat already present. It deals a solid 50 heat damage (which works out to a yield of 12.5 GIGAJOULES of heat) and unleashes a deadly 50-point hail of ionizing radiation (meaning the typical person soaks up FIVE FRIGGIN' GRAYS) just as an extra little bit of spite in case heat so intense it will burn a victim's limbs until they either fall off or just need to be amputated and leave them comatose and paralysed (assuming they survive being so thoroughly cooked, which is extremely unlikely) wasn't enough. But what about this automaton?

Well, an automaton is not a living creature, so that's a plus already as it means the deadly ionizing radiation does absolutely nothing. It also doesn't have to worry about being cooked, just being physically destroyed, so that's another plus. But what about its armour? Well, an ER of 36 means that only 14 damage will get through even if this bomb explodes at point blank. Which, of course, means the 200 PP would hold up to 15 hits (the last doing 10 damage) before it was exhausted... Except, as you may remember, this is ER and ER is per round. Any additional reality bombs in the same round as previous ones will deal full damage, meaning it will only take five hits if they are in one round to incapacitate and one more to permanently destroy the machine. Still, that's a lot of explosives (even if they are the size of a pipe bomb) to be setting off directly next to something man-sized and not much time to do it in, so ultimately we can say this approach is impractical at best. And when we are saying that about what's basically a magitek nuclear grenade, that's got to say something about how tough these machines really are.



Let me just say one thing about Jinkozen: This setting is much more light-hearted in tone than the other two... If you're in space and we just completely ignore the main world, Wea. This setting freatures a space-fairing biotech civilization that split in two because Wea ran out of the resources required to effectively fuel a space industry, and the space colonies refused to help them in any way because they didn't think it benefited said colonies enough to do so. Civilization on Wea has collapsed due to many major economic troubles and one... Uh... let's call it a "persistent existential threat". The space-farers don't make anything that can escape from Wea's gravity because they don't have to, and as a result anything that lands on the planet stays there forever. Even if it's ****ing terrifying and everybody really, really wants to get the hell away from it.

Enter the shambler, the mentioned "persistent existential threat". The shambler is a bioweapon created by one spacefaring faction to destroy the planet-siders. It will first infect and kill you like a conventional virus, prevent you from reanimating through other means and then move your corpse around by directly stimulating your muscles with electrical impulses generated by the nanites that make it up, allowing it to functionally reanimate you without using any magic. To make matters worse, the shambler can lay dormant for several days and takes several more days to kill. Even though most of the people infected survive, this combines with the symptom free days at the beginning to allowed it to spread like wildfire and bring an end to the existing civilization on Wea. The shambles it creates break down relatively quickly, forcing it to jam broken pieces together to make them work, creating monstrosities known as "amalgamated shambles" or just "amalgams", and while the shambler is a functioning and coordinated superorganism (which qualifies it as an eldritch abomination at this point) it lacks intelligence of any real form and performs more like an insect hive in practice. Another thankful factor is that it breaks down quickly from wear and decay.

In this test, we'll be using a nice, boney amalgam. This one is old, much of the tissue has rotted away and the bones are becoming brittle and frail, but it hasn't failed entirely yet and still has enough muscle to grab and tie to make itself into a big worm-shaped monstrosity of rotting bone roughly five meters long (and in-game, this would make it five distinct sections). While its integrity is only 25 in each segment and it'll break into smaller chunks when each becomes irreparably damaged, it has 100 PP on each. So, how does the spike gun deal with this?

The spike gun is a low-cost living weapon that makes its own ammunition, can still be loaded conventionally (one shot at a time) and fires with fairly solid force. It isn't as good as a conventional firearm in many respects, especially range, but many planet-side people swear by it. This particular spike gun is a pistol that deals 5 puncture damage with 5 penetration, though its range is shorter than a conventional pistol and its recoil is fairly high. Each shot will deal 10 damage to the PP of the creature, and after 10 shots it will be damaging the creature directly, paralysing a section after 5 more shots.

That said, nobody really wants to get close to an abomination that spits infectious fluid at you, paralysing one section just forces it to split into smaller, slower amalgams, and you need 5 more shots than your pistol holds. If you want to actually stop it, explosives and fire both work very well, and the latter has the added benefit of preventing the meat from infecting any creatures that come to eat it. Guns are really just an emergency option to damage it, slow it down and let you escape, since destroying it would take entirely too many bullets.

And if you read all of that, cudos to you for your patience, you should now have a pretty good idea how the armour system works.

Rerem115
2016-08-29, 12:48 PM
This looks complicated. :smalltongue:. I could see this being fun if you had some sort of program in the background to calculate all this, but I have a feeling it would get tedious fast in a pencil-and-paper game.

Avianmosquito
2016-08-29, 01:56 PM
It really isn't that complicated, I don't get how it seems complicated when one of the defences is a point reduction and the others are all basically health pools.

Rerem115
2016-08-29, 02:05 PM
It really isn't that complicated, I don't get how it seems complicated when one of the defences is a point reduction and the others are all basically health pools.

If it were just that, it wouldn't be all that bad. The issue is that there are just so many things to keep track of; you have different armor values for each body part, and 3 different layers of potential armor. This brings up another few implications; how do you determine which body part got hit? Do you have to use called shots for everything, or do you create a new attack system entirely? Also, this much data is all well and good for PCs; you have people with a vested interest in their gear, but how does this work for large groups of enemies? Are you going to track the state of the armor on each of the 25 Hobgoblin raiders your party is fighting? That starts to approach near Dwarf-Fortress levels of bookkeeping, since you have to track the injury level of each body part and each of the three layers of armor on every combatant.

Again, if this was all in the background, this could work, but since you have to write down each and every change for everyone, this starts to become just too much to keep track of.

Rerem115
2016-08-29, 02:13 PM
In addition, using a DR based armor system really punishes people like the Monk or the Rogue, people who try to avoid damage by not getting hit in the first place rather than letting their armor absorb the blow. If there is no incentive for a dodge based class, the "meta" per say is going to turn into a bunch of people strapping on the heaviest armor they can carry and bashing each other with weapons that do the most damage. To be fair, that's probably the most realistic option, but I feel that it would tend to stunt varied and innovative gameplay.

Avianmosquito
2016-08-29, 02:27 PM
If it were just that, it wouldn't be all that bad. The issue is that there are just so many things to keep track of; you have different armor values for each body part, and 3 different layers of potential armor.

If you are changing armour frequently enough that this is at all a concern, there is something wrong with you.


This brings up another few implications; how do you determine which body part got hit? Do you have to use called shots for everything, or do you create a new attack system entirely?

You CHOOSE targets, some are harder to hit than others. I figured that would be obvious.



Also, this much data is all well and good for PCs; you have people with a vested interest in their gear, but how does this work for large groups of enemies?

Enemies use generic pre-built armour sets.


Are you going to track the state of the armor on each of the 25 Hobgoblin raiders your party is fighting?

This isn't D&D. I should not have to say that when it says that in the title of the thread. You will not have a body count of 9001 by the end of your campaign, and a single encounter will never throw dozens of NPCs at you, ever. If you got into a fight with 25 hobgoblins, you would be dead too fast to care about their armour because being massively outnumbered plays out pretty realistically in this game.

This game is designed for small parties, ideally with two players. If there's only three enemies, tracking their armour is not bad.

The game also focuses a LOT on boss fights with 1-2 enemies, even when you have more than two players. If there is only one enemy, tracking its armour is nothing.

Further, item condition is an optional rule and is never applied to NPCs, so only plates and barriers ever actually need to be tracked.


That starts to approach near Dwarf-Fortress levels of bookkeeping, since you have to track the injury level of each body part and each of the three layers of armor on every combatant.

Yes, every one of the like four combatants. I don't see a problem.


Again, if this was all in the background, this could work, but since you have to write down each and every change for everyone, this starts to become just too much to keep track of.

I think you are really just making a lot of assumptions that you need to reconsider before coming to such a conclusion.


In addition, using a DR based armor system really punishes people like the Monk or the Rogue, people who try to avoid damage by not getting hit in the first place rather than letting their armor absorb the blow.

There are no classes.


If there is no incentive for a dodge based class, the "meta" per say is going to turn into a bunch of people strapping on the heaviest armor they can carry and bashing each other with weapons that do the most damage. To be fair, that's probably the most realistic option, but I feel that it would tend to stunt varied and innovative gameplay.

Not really. The fact that it is so easy to circumvent armour in-game without using armour that is impractically heavy makes lighter options viable, and the fact that this isn't D&D and you will not be in combat all (or even most) of the time makes light options even more viable.

Movement and stamina are really important in this system, especially in combat, and encumbrance impacts both of these things. Heavier armour means moving slower (even losing movement modes) and recovering stamina slower (possibly not at all or even losing it over time), and that can get you killed. Stealth is also a valuable asset and encumbrance messes that right up. The goal when making a custom armour set is to get as much protection as you need, where you need it, in as little weight and with as little money as possible, and different builds have different capabilities and different needs so their ideals will all be different as well.

Rerem115
2016-08-29, 03:00 PM
I saw "Original System" as a title tag, but since I didn't see a link to the rules, nor am I familiar with your game, I treated it as though it was an alteration of D&D, so I could have a baseline and compare it to something.

I will stand by my previous statement that your system has the potential to develop a very high level of bookkeeping. While things may be all well and good with a small number of combatants, you have to plan for every eventuality in order to ensure that battles remain small. You say it's foolish to charge into a fight outnumbered, but what if someone goes and gets backup, or is a fool and charges in anyway? You can build around the rules, but things become more difficult if the rules break down when you push their limits. Sometimes you don't even have to push the limits; if you had a party of 2 fighting 3 Amalgams from the OP, you'd have to keep track of 15 Amalgam segments. It wouldn't be undoable, but you'd still have to keep track of quite a bit.

Avianmosquito
2016-08-29, 09:45 PM
I saw "Original System" as a title tag, but since I didn't see a link to the rules, nor am I familiar with your game, I treated it as though it was an alteration of D&D, so I could have a baseline and compare it to something.

It would be hard to compare it to anything, really.


I will stand by my previous statement that your system has the potential to develop a very high level of bookkeeping.

Most do.


While things may be all well and good with a small number of combatants, you have to plan for every eventuality in order to ensure that battles remain small. You say it's foolish to charge into a fight outnumbered, but what if someone goes and gets backup, or is a fool and charges in anyway?

In the former case, the GM really probably shouldn't allow it. The first tip of the GM guide says to keep encounters small, and it isn't my fault if they decide to ignore it. In the latter, they will likely die very rapidly so they won't have much time to complicate things.


You can build around the rules, but things become more difficult if the rules break down when you push their limits. Sometimes you don't even have to push the limits; if you had a party of 2 fighting 3 Amalgams from the OP, you'd have to keep track of 15 Amalgam segments. It wouldn't be undoable, but you'd still have to keep track of quite a bit.

You would more likely just fight one amalgam 15 segments long. Given time amalgams fuse together, that's how they became amalgams in the first place.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-08-30, 12:10 PM
Mkay, so first off it might help to post some basic genre/style information about the game, so we don't have to make feedback on a vacuum. This stuff all feeds back on itself- what's appropriate for a small-scale tactical game is different than for a wuxia action game about heroes fighting armies, and both are very different from a survival horror or relationship-focused game.

Now, you've said that this will be very small scale and most time will be spent out of combat, so the obvious question is "why the complexity?" Leaving aside for a moment the question of how it plays, this is a *lot* of detail about equipment. You can make very intricate and unique loadouts. Is that meant to be a focus, as for, say, a mech game?

Remember: it's always tempting to add more complexity in the name of realism, but an important part of game design is knowing when to back off and abstract things. Always go back to your core themes- anything not supporting them should be axed relentlessly until it either works with them or gets out of their way.

Avianmosquito
2016-08-30, 01:17 PM
Mkay, so first off it might help to post some basic genre/style information about the game, so we don't have to make feedback on a vacuum. This stuff all feeds back on itself- what's appropriate for a small-scale tactical game is different than for a wuxia action game about heroes fighting armies, and both are very different from a survival horror or relationship-focused game.

Now, you've said that this will be very small scale and most time will be spent out of combat, so the obvious question is "why the complexity?" Leaving aside for a moment the question of how it plays, this is a *lot* of detail about equipment. You can make very intricate and unique loadouts. Is that meant to be a focus, as for, say, a mech game?

Remember: it's always tempting to add more complexity in the name of realism, but an important part of game design is knowing when to back off and abstract things. Always go back to your core themes- anything not supporting them should be axed relentlessly until it either works with them or gets out of their way.

The game is very small scale and extremely tactical in combat. Its combat has a very heavy emphasis on movement, positioning and action point management, with your gear and build being very important to the outcome as well. That's why the armour system allows for so much depth, it's because that gear selection you do is intended to shape your entire strategy in combat, and vise versa. For one example, if you use projectile weapons you probably don't need much arm or leg protection as the primary threat will be other projectile users and they will almost always be aiming for your torso or head. However, this means you can put more armour on your torso and head for a given cost and weight than you could if you needed full-body armour.

Outside of combat, which is most of the game, has a heavy emphasis on interaction with NPCs, obstacles and resource management. That means picking options that will hinder you outside of combat is not so great. If you're wearing forty kilos of armour that might be great in a fight, but then you find yourself having to climb a ladder or cross a river and suddenly it's an enormous problem. A polearm is generally far superior to a melee weapon, but since you can't sheathe it the weapon will be in your way all the time and that makes it a lot less attractive. A sword is often the best melee weapon, but you may not be able to afford one and carrying one is much more likely to be illegal than carrying, say, an axe.

The game takes a very realistic approach to adventuring. You are pretty much always some flat broke nobody who does odd jobs, and these are generally the start of (or the entirety of, as the case may be) your adventure. It would be fairly typical, for instance, for your adventure to start with somebody hiring you to deliver a letter. It would also be typical for it to start with somebody hiring you to look for somebody who has gone missing, or to find out why shipments have stopped coming in from a nearby town. The bottom line is the hook is usually mundane, but the plot itself thickens quickly. Or at least, that's how it goes when you aren't just dropped head-first into an unfamiliar environment and a plot mostly about making a place for yourself and others in a hostile environment. That option is really just the set-up for character and world focused storytelling, and is for more casual, open-ended campaigns. That said, that is how I have (so far) chosen to introduce new people to the system as the more freeform format makes it easy to keep the difficulty curve where they can handle it. (But that's just me and my GMing style, that might not work for GMs with different skill sets.)

But as for you, you are not special, and that's why you can't be fighting all the time. Combat is extremely lethal and avoiding it is usually better than engaging in it, especially with NPCs as there is no power gap between PCs and NPCs built into the system and in fact they will often have you outclassed, especially early in the game. I mean, by all means, go ahead and attack that highwayman that is telling you to hand over the package you're carrying, but remember that he robs people for a living and you probably aren't the first guy to try and stab him. And if your home town has just been annexed by demons, you can go ahead and try to fight them, but the outlook on that is pretty grim and it would probably be smarter to just sneak out of town one night and never come back.

This is why combat gets such a heavy emphasis in this game's rules, but is not something you're expected to spend most of your time doing: Because there is a much higher chance in this game that any individual encounter could kill a PC or even wipe the party than there is in most other games. The depth is there because something that can easily end a campaign is always going to be important, and the encouragement to avoid it is there because, again, it could easily end the campaign.

And I hope that about clears that up.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-08-30, 02:51 PM
That does help, yeah.

Now, I think you still might have too much complexity here. A rare-but-intricate system is likely to cause extreme slowdown just when you want things to be tensest, as players fumble with how this works and what that ability does. It also doesn't, in my mind, particularly mesh with a "losers doing off jobs" paradigm- this level of equipment customization speaks to me of elite military, where you can change your kit for specific missions. I also fear that it can obscure the sort of trade-offs you want players to consider by wrapping everything in extra layers of detail, and place more emphasis on metagame preparation than tactical strategy.

Avianmosquito
2016-09-01, 10:25 AM
Sorry for the delay, had to go to court and after that I just didn't feel up to posting until now.


Now, I think you still might have too much complexity here. A rare-but-intricate system is likely to cause extreme slowdown just when you want things to be tensest, as players fumble with how this works and what that ability does.

I think you seem to be misinterpreting the term "not doing x most of the time" as "doing x almost never".


It also doesn't, in my mind, particularly mesh with a "losers doing off jobs" paradigm- this level of equipment customization speaks to me of elite military, where you can change your kit for specific missions.

Or, maybe, you're just buying individual pieces as you can afford them or improvising what you can manage to, and that's why you can make bizarre, hodge-podge armour sets. It's not like you're a soldier with a default kit (though you can, certainly, buy a soldier's default kit and it actually works well if you're performing the same role), and if you noticed, I said one of the major limiting factors on your armour selection in-game is actually money and I meant it, as you often simply can't afford higher-end materials and are forced to make due with far inferior ones. Armour is, notably, much more expensive than weaponry and that holds true in-game.


I also fear that it can obscure the sort of trade-offs you want players to consider by wrapping everything in extra layers of detail, and place more emphasis on metagame preparation than tactical strategy.

1. Getting more out of preparation is a good thing, not a bad one.

2. I think you forgetting that every possible armour set will leave significant weaknesses and that becomes part of the new strategy for dealing with an enemy. Look at my examples again, ignoring those where we were looking entirely at natural armour. Notice how, in every instance, there's an exploitable weakness? Go ahead, take a look, I won't spoil it for you. (Not that I need to, things like "aim for the archer's arms or legs" shouldn't be hard to figure out.)

PapaQuackers
2016-09-01, 12:22 PM
I dont know why you ask for feedback if all you do is snap at people trying to critique you. Especially since your justifications for all your posts lie in information that you dont make ready at the start. Maybe just stop asking for opinions if you dont think anybody has any good opinions as far as youre concerned.

Avianmosquito
2016-09-01, 12:28 PM
I dont know why you ask for feedback if all you do is snap at people trying to critique you. Especially since your justifications for all your posts lie in information that you dont make ready at the start. Maybe just stop asking for opinions if you dont think anybody has any good opinions as far as youre concerned.

Or, how about you stop intentionally reading non-existent hostility into everything I ever say, ever, under any circumstances, no matter what it is and how it is phrased?

PapaQuackers
2016-09-01, 01:22 PM
Or, you could learn the most basic of writing principals called tone and understand that your phrasing and word choice is geared toward aggression.

Avianmosquito
2016-09-01, 01:29 PM
Or, you could learn the most basic of writing principals called tone and understand that your phrasing and word choice is geared toward aggression.

Except that it's not, and you're simply always going to read it that way because I disagree with you and that's your immediate reaction to anybody disagreeing with you, ever, which can only be dispelled by tone of voice and body language that you cannot see because this is a text conversation.

This is a problem with all text conversations, and the reason everybody gets so damned angry in arguments on the internet. EVERYBODY sounds hostile when they are disagreeing with you, especially if they do so using declarative statements, when you cannot hear their voice or see their face. And do I mean EVERYBODY. It isn't MY job to not sound hostile because that's IMPOSSIBLE. It's YOUR job to not ASSUME I am being hostile when I most certainly am NOT. The problem is NOT in my WORDS, it's in your ASSUMPTION, and if you simply must fall into the 90% of all people who never figure out how to get past that issue and give people the benefit of the doubt, that's not my problem. As you may have noticed, there's a reason *I* have never accused anybody of being hostile. Stale and repetitive, yes, but not hostile. I, unlike you, give everybody the benefit of the doubt in regards to tone, because it is outright impossible to tell what somebody's intended tone actually is in a text conversation and giving people the benefit of the doubt leads to a lot less trouble for both parties.

And yes, since you can't tell, I am being hostile now. To you, and you alone, because you insist on reading me that way and there's no point in being anything else.

PapaQuackers
2016-09-01, 01:37 PM
Im going to give you a quick example. Ready?

"This is not D&D I shouldnt have to say that when the title says original system" 100% aggressive tone. A simple change to fix it would be.

"This system is not similar to D&D in respects to combat. I should have mentioned that earlier, sorry for the confusion"

Thats called how not to be a jerk on the internet 101. I suggest you give it a shot.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-09-01, 01:43 PM
The more rules there are for a given subject, the more it feels like the game is emphasizing it, and the more DMs will use it. Look at D&D, with its pages and pages of combat rules, light social guidance, and combat heavy standard of play.

Now, I get what you're trying to do, but I think you could cut back a bit.

Under and over- layers, for instance, seem highly redundant from a gameplay perspective-- not just one verses the other, but with armor in general. Five different pieces of armor is plenty customizable; you don't need 15.
DR and ER makes sense to separate, I suppose (you could also have the distinction work mostly on the weapon side of things), but having them work in subtly different ways feels like needless complexity.
Plate vs Barrier points feels roughly like normal vs temporary hit points, which is fine. You could certainly simplify more, but I don't know that the loss of "feel" is really worth it. Except that having two different kinds of soak (DR vs shields) feels redundant to my inner game designer.

Overall, I suggest cutting back to five pieces, each with their own DR and ER, Plate Points and a "mod slot" (call it whatever you like), which could contain things like underarmor (+DR and weight), barrier generators, coolant systems, weight distribution straps, that sort of thing. That should give you a lot of customization without quite the overload here.

Avianmosquito
2016-09-01, 01:44 PM
Im going to give you a quick example. Ready?

"This is not D&D I shouldnt have to say that when the title says original system" 100% aggressive tone. A simple change to fix it would be.

"This system is not similar to D&D in respects to combat. I should have mentioned that earlier, sorry for the confusion"

Thats called how not to be a jerk on the internet 101. I suggest you give it a shot.

And let me give you the exact response to that:

"I can read the ****ing title, why are you being so condescending?"

The placations there will have no effect. It does not matter how you phrase anything, it will ALWAYS be read as hostile, because the person you are arguing with absolutely REQUIRES that YOU be the jerk, and not them. I've been doing this **** since the ****ING NINETIES, phrasing has NO EFFECT on how you are perceived, that's why I don't even ****ing TRY anymore. It doesn't work on polite forums, it doesn't work on aggressive forums, it doesn't work in YouTube comments, social media, 4Chan or anywhere else, because people WANT you to be hostile so they can feel better.

It's not on me to throw a thousand placations in every sentence in hopes that one of them might work every now and then, which they won't, it's on you to give me the benefit of the doubt the exact same way I have consistently done for you and everybody else I have interacted with in my time on this site.

PapaQuackers
2016-09-01, 01:55 PM
So you're openly acknowledging that you sound like a jerk but justify it by saying other people are probably jerks? Bravo. Not only is that self defeating its just plain wrong. People care if you type or speak with respect to your audience in mind. The reason your thread in worldbuilding was shut down is because you are rude. Justify it all you like but it will continue to hinder your posts and make people averse to speaking with you. This will be my last cry on deaf ears so have a nice day.

Avianmosquito
2016-09-01, 02:13 PM
See, Quakers? This guy does not seem to be reading me quite the way you are. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Grod. I consider it a favour.) I'm being civil, he's being civil, both of us are giving the other the benefit of the doubt and there's no problem. See how much better this is? Why can't YOU do that?


The more rules there are for a given subject, the more it feels like the game is emphasizing it, and the more DMs will use it.

That's fine. That's why I've made a separate GM handbook (separated specifically to draw attention to its existence), and I intend to put them both in a single download file so no group ever goes without it.


Look at D&D, with its pages and pages of combat rules, light social guidance, and combat heavy standard of play.

Which edition? I've only got a 3.5 rulebook, and it's really old and kinda banged up.


Now, I get what you're trying to do, but I think you could cut back a bit.

Under and over- layers, for instance, seem highly redundant from a gameplay perspective-- not just one verses the other, but with armor in general. Five different pieces of armor is plenty customizable; you don't need 15.
DR and ER makes sense to separate, I suppose (you could also have the distinction work mostly on the weapon side of things), but having them work in subtly different ways feels like needless complexity.
Plate vs Barrier points feels roughly like normal vs temporary hit points, which is fine. You could certainly simplify more, but I don't know that the loss of "feel" is really worth it. Except that having two different kinds of soak (DR vs shields) feels redundant to my inner game designer.

Overall, I suggest cutting back to five pieces, each with their own DR and ER, Plate Points and a "mod slot" (call it whatever you like), which could contain things like underarmor (+DR and weight), barrier generators, coolant systems, weight distribution straps, that sort of thing. That should give you a lot of customization without quite the overload here.

1. Are you sure? The under and over layers are there to allow you to mix and match and get more weight classes. Is it really worth losing that, just to reduce the number of pieces? I'll think about it, but I don't believe I'm going to do it.

2. I didn't think it was that subtle. The difference between "damage per hit" and "damage per round" seems really big to me, and I thought ER functioned more like a barrier than DR.

3. We mostly agree on this, but I must say there is an important difference from a game design perspective between a reduction and a health pool. Namely, that different weapon types are effective against them. Hard-hitting weapons are better against DR, but against shields the only thing that really matters is DPR. A weapon doing 20 damage per hit and landing 2 hits per round will not perform as well as a weapon dealing 15 damage per hit and landing 3 hits per round when it comes to shields and barriers, but against a DR 10 it would do much better. That's most of the reason for having these two separate systems.

I'll need to see the system in action before I make a final decision here, but your proposal does not seem meaningfully different from my system. I already have armour mods (though with two slots, notably), and having an under-armour mod isn't really different than just having under-armour in the first place, it just nets the player one less mod slot. (I have one mod slot for the under-layer and one for over-layer right now.) Granted, those mod slots weren't doing much in the first place and I could just put them both on the over-layer, but I don't really think there'd be a benefit to the change as all the complexity is still there.

I will think about it, but I can't say I'll end up actually doing it.

As an aside, would you be interested in having more detail on the combat system, damage system, or lore? I'm up in the air on which to do next, I'll take an opinion here.


So you're openly acknowledging that you sound like a jerk but justify it by saying other people are probably jerks? Bravo. Not only is that self defeating its just plain wrong. People care if you type or speak with respect to your audience in mind. The reason your thread in worldbuilding was shut down is because you are rude. Justify it all you like but it will continue to hinder your posts and make people averse to speaking with you. This will be my last cry on deaf ears so have a nice day.

That isn't what I said at all, and you just proved my entire point by reading it in such a bizarre way. Hopefully, with your merciful departure, this thread can have some sense of normalcy again. Goodbye, you will not be missed.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-09-01, 03:16 PM
See, Quakers? This guy does not seem to be reading me quite the way you are. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Grod. I consider it a favour.) I'm being civil, he's being civil, both of us are giving the other the benefit of the doubt and there's no problem. See how much better this is? Why can't YOU do that?
Yeah, uh, your responses can be read kind of rudely. Discounting your direct argument with PapaQuackers, where you're being actively nasty. I've been trying to be civil and give you the benefit of the doubt, since I know it's easy to be prickly when taking criticism, and I didn't want to get sidetracked, but... yeah, you could be a little more helpful and less "that's how it SHOULD work because of REASONS and it's a feature not a bug!"


That's fine. That's why I've made a separate GM handbook (separated specifically to draw attention to its existence), and I intend to put them both in a single download file so no group ever goes without it.
It's an unconscious thing, a sense of "well, this is what the system really supports. Even if a game repeatedly says "fighting is the last resort; good adventurers will always try to find alternatives," if there are fifty pages of weapon and armor and maneuvering rules and perks and five on skills, guess what people will get excited about? Half the time DMs won't read that advice anyway, because, well... we already know how to run a game, just get to the new rules I need to know, okay? It's a bit arrogant and doubtless frustrating, but it's a fact, and one that probably goes double for players. That's why it's so important for key themes to come out in rules.


Which edition? I've only got a 3.5 rulebook, and it's really old and kinda banged up.
All of them? Certainly everything from 3.5 on that I've played has spent much, much more time on fighting.


1. Are you sure? The under and over layers are there to allow you to mix and match and get more weight classes. Is it really worth losing that, just to reduce the number of pieces? I'll think about it, but I don't believe I'm going to do it.
I'd have to say "yes, it's worth it." You'd have three weight classes per piece instead of nine. I think that's a fine amount of distinction, especially since said factors will be cumulative over all five pieces.


2. I didn't think it was that subtle. The difference between "damage per hit" and "damage per round" seems really big to me, and I thought ER functioned more like a barrier than DR.

3. We mostly agree on this, but I must say there is an important difference from a game design perspective between a reduction and a health pool. Namely, that different weapon types are effective against them. Hard-hitting weapons are better against DR, but against shields the only thing that really matters is DPR. A weapon doing 20 damage per hit and landing 2 hits per round will not perform as well as a weapon dealing 15 damage per hit and landing 3 hits per round when it comes to shields and barriers, but against a DR 10 it would do much better. That's most of the reason for having these two separate systems.
Eh, I suppose that's true. Two types of DR isn't that bad, and I see now that barriers cover the entire body with a single point pool, so that simplifies things too.

EDIT: Actually, I note that you're further segregating DR by damage type, which is one MORE layer of complication. You practically need a character sheet for each limb, as each body part has what, two or three kinds of hit points (I assume you have limb damage), a dozen different kinds of DR, a friggen' table of material/weight combinations, two mods... a good test for overcomplexity: write out a character sheet, with enough detail that someone who doesn't have significant parts of the system memorized* can pick up the character and play him. How many pages did you need, and how small did you have to write?


*ie, knows how to play the game, but would have to look up how much AC plate mail gives him or what class feature X does if they don't have notes.


I'll need to see the system in action before I make a final decision here, but your proposal does not seem meaningfully different from my system. I already have armour mods (though with two slots, notably), and having an under-armour mod isn't really different than just having under-armour in the first place, it just nets the player one less mod slot. (I have one mod slot for the under-layer and one for over-layer right now.) Granted, those mod slots weren't doing much in the first place and I could just put them both on the over-layer, but I don't really think there'd be a benefit to the change as all the complexity is still there.
Oh, so in addition to Over and Under-armor, you also have two mods? Great gods above, that's nuts. Cut back, son, cut back. Keep it simple. Five options per piece, times five pieces, is twenty-five choices for your armor alone. That's more nuts and bolts than entire characters in some games, and they're not interesting. That's the biggest problem with a system this fiddly-- it's a lot of messing around with a couple of numbers that ultimately boil down to a choice of "live longer" verses "move better." I get that you want customization, but that's much better served through mods (that can do things things beyond "more DR, less weight") than a nine-state armor weight system. Good game design minimizes number crunching while maximizing meaningful player choice. ("DR 2/10lb vs DR 4/20lb" is not a meaningful choice; "DR +2 vs +10 Jump" is)

I'll say that again, because it's important. Math bad, choice good.

Avianmosquito
2016-09-01, 04:09 PM
Yeah, uh, your responses can be read kind of rudely. Discounting your direct argument with PapaQuackers, where you're being actively nasty. I've been trying to be civil and give you the benefit of the doubt, since I know it's easy to be prickly when taking criticism, and I didn't want to get sidetracked, but... yeah, you could be a little more helpful and less "that's how it SHOULD work because of REASONS and it's a feature not a bug!"

See, this is the part I asked about. I realize my comments CAN be read rudely, I think that applies to all comments, but you're giving me the benefit of the doubt and I'm returning it. Can we not agree that the internet in general would be much better if everybody did this? I think it would be. I'm sick of arguing about bull**** I never intended to argue about because some random internet bloke thinks I'm a jerk for "attacking" his opinion I didn't even know he held, and I don't want to sound condescending by tacking a disclaimer onto the top of my posts, or my signature for that matter, because I've tried that and it only made it worse. In fact, everything I've tried for the twenty-two years I've been on the internet has only made tone issues worse, because it's gone from "aggressive" to "condescending" and people react much more harshly to the latter issue.


It's an unconscious thing, a sense of "well, this is what the system really supports. Even if a game repeatedly says "fighting is the last resort; good adventurers will always try to find alternatives," if there are fifty pages of weapon and armor and maneuvering rules and perks and five on skills, guess what people will get excited about? Half the time DMs won't read that advice anyway, because, well... we already know how to run a game, just get to the new rules I need to know, okay? It's a bit arrogant and doubtless frustrating, but it's a fact, and one that probably goes double for players. That's why it's so important for key themes to come out in rules.

Well, my rules as they stand punish combat very heavily. Combat consumes an immense amount of stamina in a short timespan and any injury sustained takes a very long time to heal. I figured that causing such long-lasting damage by engaging in combat made it clear you weren't expected to do this on a regular basis, and adding it into the "PLEASE READ" GM handbook would get that point across fairly well. I don't know, maybe I need to work on my phrasing... I'll upload my full rulebook and handbook in a couple weeks (damn, but I have some catching up to do...) and we'll see then.


All of them? Certainly everything from 3.5 on that I've played has spent much, much more time on fighting.

Well, I know D&D spends a lot more time fighting. I don't want this game to be like D&D. I want the combat to be good, but I don't want it to be the go-to option to deal with every problem. I want players to be more inclined to negotiate, I want them to be there talking to somebody who won't calm down and be thinking "Dammit, I don't want to fight... What do I need to SAY to make them listen to me?", rather than just walking in and killing them instantly the moment they appear, even if the whole plot of the quest so far has been about their issues. (I hate wasting three sessions writing about a character's issues, trying to make social commentary and then ending up with them killing the NPC central to the quest and it all meaning nothing, because my point was missed entirely and they never understood the NPC before they made their decision.)


I'd have to say "yes, it's worth it." You'd have three weight classes per piece instead of nine. I think that's a fine amount of distinction, especially since said factors will be cumulative over all five pieces.

These points don't add up, you know that. It wouldn't matter if you had a DR 99 on your torso if somebody shot you in the head, and it wouldn't matter if you had 9001 PP on your left arm if somebody stuck a knife in your right leg. (And blimey, isn't that a pleasant thought?)

I can do it. I really, really can, but I am definitely waiting to see how the system plays out in practice before I do. I am going to be playing at some point next week (hopefully), with a group that knows the game fairly well and will only be new with the current armour system.


Eh, I suppose that's true. Two types of DR isn't that bad, and I see now that barriers cover the entire body with a single point pool, so that simplifies things too.

EDIT: Actually, I note that you're further segregating DR by damage type, which is one MORE layer of complication. You practically need a character sheet for each limb, as each body part has what, two or three kinds of hit points (I assume you have limb damage), a dozen different kinds of DR, a friggen' table of material/weight combinations, two mods... a good test for overcomplexity: write out a character sheet, with enough detail that someone who doesn't have significant parts of the system memorized* can pick up the character and play him. How many pages did you need, and how small did you have to write?

*ie, knows how to play the game, but would have to look up how much AC plate mail gives him or what class feature X does if they don't have notes.

I wrote it out in physical form, I can take a scan if you want, but my daughter has my cell phone so I'll need to break out the old zinger and it'll be a while.

Edit: I cannot read my own handwriting. Screw it, waiting for the scan.


Oh, so in addition to Over and Under-armor, you also have two mods? Great gods above, that's nuts.

Chill. I only have three mod options at the moment, because the armour mods are so new I don't have anything else yet. One is an under-armour mod that increases ambient temperature (which, if it applies, will be wanted on all parts), an over-armour mod that increases temperature (clearly works against the other) and camouflage (which clearly cannot be done at the same time as the heat-resistant coating and would require all parts be covered in it to really help). So basically, you have an option to insulate a little and two options on how to colour your overlayer. It's not a big deal right now, and I'll get to shield generators later. (Note: I think the shield generator will be an alternative to plates, for simplicity's sake.)


Cut back, son, cut back.

Please, do not call me son. I am probably older than you.


Keep it simple. Five options per piece, times five pieces, is twenty-five choices for your armor alone. That's more nuts and bolts than entire characters in some games, and they're not interesting. That's the biggest problem with a system this fiddly-- it's a lot of messing around with a couple of numbers that ultimately boil down to a choice of "live longer" verses "move better." I get that you want customization, but that's much better served through mods (that can do things things beyond "more DR, less weight") than a nine-state armor weight system. Good game design minimizes number crunching while maximizing meaningful player choice. ("DR 2/10lb vs DR 4/20lb" is not a meaningful choice; "DR +2 vs +10 Jump" is)

It really doesn't boil down to "live longer" vs "move better" because of the locational damage system. You can pack on all the resistance possible on your torso and get a DR 16-32 and PP 80-160 with no issue, with as little as 6kg, if you don't mind only covering your head. Most of it comes down to putting the protection where you need it most in your present role, and then making sure your strategy in combat keeps your armour as relevant as possible. Somebody concentrating protection on their torso will be nearly invincible at long-range, but vulnerable to anybody close enough to target other parts of their body. Meanwhile, somebody covering their entire body will have no weak points, but be vulnerable to high-power attacks. It's not a pair of factors that aren't ultimately meaningful, it's dozens of factors that make a world of difference. A good player with archer gear will never be seriously hurt because their torso was the only part hit and it was well protected. A bad player with archer gear will die horribly because their enemies got in close and hacked off their exposed arms. This system is so meta a good armour set for high-skill players is totally different from a good set for low-skill players, because the high-skill players can go by without ever taking damage on their weak points and low-skill players can leave one arm uncovered and get nailed there time and be killed.


I'll say that again, because it's important. Math bad, choice good.

We agree on the latter, at least, but I'm not sure this thread was very effective overall and may have to rethink it, because it never seemed like much math to me.

Avianmosquito
2016-09-01, 08:23 PM
Since I apparently cannot just directly put up an image, here's some mediafire links.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/9vgxo8qsdp579qu/004.jpg
http://www.mediafire.com/view/58gfcjj2y36j8j3/005.jpg

That's it. That's what it looks like, though it really should be in pencil, this is the sheet for the guy getting shot in example #1. You'll notice I'm using a tiny little notebook, and it's still only two pages with plenty of space, and the second one includes a large hit diagram (that is currently a terrible stick figure because I cannot draw), which could be nixed in exchange for a six lines of text. That's all the game takes. (There's also experience recorded at the bottom of the first page, but it isn't in-frame.) Pretty much every derived attribute in the game is equal to an attribute or a fraction of an attribute, so they don't need to be recorded. Technically, I didn't even need to write down poise, and I'm not sure why I did. (It's seriously just 1/2 resolve.)

Show me your last D&D character sheet, let's compare, because I bet you mine took up less space.

Avianmosquito
2016-09-10, 07:38 AM
Okay, so now to just ask the question I actually made this thread to ask, though it is WAY late at this point.

Is damage reduction too low? (Yes, seriously, that's it. That one question was the ENTIRE reason I made this thread, I just lost the plot pretty early on.)

ryanoflynn
2016-10-25, 06:42 PM
Was just wondering if the armor has penetration defense against different damage types?

Avianmosquito
2016-10-25, 06:46 PM
Was just wondering if the armor has penetration defense against different damage types?

I'm not entirely certain what you are asking. If you are asking if armour resists the penetration stat itself, no. 5 penetration will always bypass 5 damage reduction or deal 5 damage to plates, end of story. If you are, however, asking if armour provides different amounts of protection against different damage types, yes it does. The system has changed somewhat since this thread was started, but that part still remains. If you're asking something else, I'm afraid you'll need to clarify.

ryanoflynn
2016-10-26, 05:46 AM
It was about the penetration versus DR. I probably mistook the weapon damage type as penetration defence.