Vestiges, Soulmelds, Vow Of Poverty: How Far Can An Oath Be Stretched?

[Erit]

This isn't a life-or-death issue, more morbid curiosity. I just want to see people's thoughts on the matter.

By my understanding of RAW, Vow of Poverty allows Soulmelds but wouldn't allow things like Savnok's summoned armor or Andras' greatsword, since soulmelds have no GP value but items granted by Vestiges kind of do. But by my understanding of RAI, VoP isn't meant to lock out class abilities, and Soulmelds and Vestige items like those mentioned above are functions of class abilities. While the issue could be rendered moot by simply not using those items, I'd like to know how others would rule this situation.

Is it breaking your vow to shape an Incarnate Weapon or Bloodwar Gauntlets? Would it be against your oath to wield Eurynome's Maul? So on and so forth.

[Segev]

I'm pretty sure that if you tried to sell Savnok's armor or other such "granted" things, you'd be laughed out of the proverbial store. They have no gp value.

Your VoP doesn't stop you from summoning, conjuring, or otherwise acquiring class-granted features that are not items which exist independent of your class feature.

[Erit]

I'm pretty sure that if you tried to sell Savnok's armor or other such "granted" things, you'd be laughed out of the proverbial store. They have no gp value.

The argument against this that I've seen is that you can assign a definitive value to the non-conjured equivalent of Savnok's armor. Granted, that also applies to some Soulmelds.

The Book of Exalted Deeds stipulates, "You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties... You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf—you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly. You may not, however, 'borrow' a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round..."

On the one hand, you can't directly profit from Vestige gear. On another, it's magical gear that can have a roundabout approximate value. On one of your Girallion Arms, you could be said to be "borrowing" the items in question from the Vestige.

[darksolitaire]

Trying to follow Wow of Poverty to a word is pretty much a classical blunder. This interpretation would, for example, prevent healing team mates with their magic items since you're technically using them.

[DMwithoutPC's]

would a Wizards spellbook, or a Archivists prayerbook count as a posession? the spells scribed into it have a GP value

[A.A.King]

The intent of Vow of Poverty is quite simply that you give away with a GP value that comes into your possession. The question you should ask yourself is: "Is me using Savnok's Armor preventing someone else from benefitting from it?" and not "Is Savnok's Armor an Item?". The fact is that you can't give away Savnok's Armor to the needy, so it would be silly to not use it.

Or to put it differently: The essense of the Vow of Poverty isn't that you have absolutely nothing, it is that you have nothing but the absolute BARE essentials (clothes, a walking stick and a spellbook if you are a wizard) that would be of benefit to the needy. The only way the needy could benefit from conjured up gear is if you sold it in a cheap scam (which wouldn't be very exalted now, would it?)

[Big Fau]

Soulmelds aren't items to begin with. They aren't items any more than they are spell effects.

[eggynack]

The argument against this that I've seen is that you can assign a definitive value to the non-conjured equivalent of Savnok's armor. Granted, that also applies to some Soulmelds.
You can say that about a whole lot of stuff. What, are you going to say a monk is breaking vow of poverty because a ring of evasion exists? Classes are, to some extent, just big ol' bundles of item abilities. But these things aren't actually items, things that you own outside of yourself, so they don't act against VoP.

[Necroticplague]

No, those don't break the oaths. The vow is against material possessions. Those aren't possessions. So, just like grafts, they're good to go.

[Yael]

No, those don't break the oaths. The vow is against material possessions. Those aren't possessions. So, just like grafts, they're good to go.

Here, young boy, this loaf of bread will be of more use to you than I, please ignore the tentacle I'm using to hand it to you.

[digiman619]

You wouldn't be asking this question about a Soulknife, would you?

[Willie the Duck]

By my understanding of RAW,


items granted by Vestiges kind of do.

You are asking about RAW. I don't see any GP value to items granted by vestiges. They emulate items with a set GP value.

Going by RAI--Incarnum came out 2 years after BoED. VoP had no idea that such things were going to exist. Likewise, Incarnum followed the standard operating procedure and did not include a "what this book does to previously published supplements" section. Follow the spirit of the rules: Your character gets certain bonuses for handing all their earned treasure into the donation basket instead of keeping it.

[Bohandas]

No, those don't break the oaths. The vow is against material possessions. Those aren't possessions. So, just like grafts, they're good to go.

Plus, they're not material either