Another contemplation of weapon loadout for my Wood-Elf Monk...

[Aell]

Hi again! Despite some months having passed since last I posted on this forum with monk-related questions, I have only had time to play one more session, and did not get any opportunity to change my gear (although I did level to 4 and got my dex/wis to 18/20 in anticipation for Stunning Strike at next levelup, yay), but I just felt you people treated me with such courtesy and relevant input last time that I wanted to ask you about some more monk stuff, input very much appreciated!

To give you some free entertainment as a bonus (skip past this section down to my "Weapon Question" if tall tales aren't your thing...), I will quickly describe the pickle my monk Gaido has found himself in at present:

For the past three months my party has been on the trail of an Illithid death cult in a large port city (not Sword Coast). Last night our rogue left us in the street (the third person wasn't present yesterday) and only my fellow barbarbarian ("Babarh") and my monk were making our way back to our employer, with very low health (we had been ambushed by three ogres), walking through some slums when the DM suddenly asked us to make a luck roll; I called Low and rolled a 20. My barb friend called High and rolled a 4. Consequently we were immediately held up at arrowpoint by three cloaked figures asking us to come with them, and were marched down to the deep city sewer and put in irons, and a moment later we were standing face to face with a Mindflayer. *The* Mindflayer, the one whose organization we had been researching. First time I've ever met one, too.

Both monk and barb managed to resist the Illithid's ranged telepathy probe; me through a Wisdom save, the barb through triggering a totem wolf rage by the probe. The illithid was amused by our fortitude and simply asked us to submit or die. I accepted and said I could go first and sit down in the torture chair to have my head scanned. The Flayer instead turned to the barb and had his Grimlock henchmen drag the barb out of his cell, just to show me I was not in charge here, and that I was not going to talk my way out of this.

Before I can counsel my barb friend in what is about to happen, the unarmed brute dashes away from the guards when they open his cell door (running right past the midroom table where his 2H-sword was laying, not picking it up...), sidesteps the grimlocks, and goes into a Grapple with the Illithid himself, who hasn't moved an inch during all this calamity. My cell is still locked and I can only watch what happens. Babarh manages to get one punch right into the mouthpart of the Illithid, doing all of 5 damage. It's the Mindflayer's turn and he immediately gets tentacles into his forehead, temples, and base of the skull. The Illithid doesn't stop after having feasted on his memories, its very pride has been hurt, after all. Its mouth-tentacles rips my friend's scalp asunder, burrows in through his eyes and ears, and then unceremoniously parts his skull at the top and swallows his brain in one go, dropping his lifeless husk as an afterthought. The Grimlock henchmen throw themselves over his remains and dismember him quickly, not having fed in a long while.

My monk looked with sullen eyes at the macabre spectacle taking place in front of me and remarked of my friend, "Headstrong, to the last...". I then get marched out from my cell and thrown in chains, and am subjected to a very cursory mindrape by a markedly euphoric, aloof, and sated Mindflayer, and then I get the Mark of the Squid sigil tattooed into my chest. The same organization I have been trying to dismantle since May. :.)

So now I have been set loose, given a mission by my arch-enemy, who just swallowed my friend's brain, to go back to my employer and get into his good graces, and then help the Cult forces invade his fortress in sheer "Trojan Horse"-fashion. Whether I will go into full Evil-mode or not (I did plunder my barb's backpack before leaving the cells, since he wouldn't be needing the 114 gold anymore...) I have yet to decide, but regardless I will have to come up with a very convincing song and dance in any case, come this sunday. I need to convince an ancient, paranoid Dragonkin liegelord of my honest intentions. But that is for me to worry about.

WEAPON QUESTION:
After having reached level 4, I was planning to switch from Quarterstaff and Light Crossbow to Spear and Longbow (wood-elf proficiency, yay) to get more range and variety as a monk. But when I read about weapons in the Player's Handbook, I start to think that maybe a longsword might not be such a bad idea?

Lore-wise you might say a spear or staff is much more Monk-fitting than a longsword, but there are actually several chinese martial traditions that concern swords held with both hands:

https://sayshanti.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/bg-sh065-2.jpg

https://feidorlaview.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/miao-dao-1.jpg

https://feidorlaview.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/miao-dao-2.jpg

So, even though I was very tempted to go with spear/longbow earlier, maybe I can be of more use if I wield a Longsword at 1d10 with both hands (versatile) than I can with the Spear at 1d8? Sure, spear is Piercing instead of Slashing, not as often found as an immunity, but I don't get more reach from the spear anyway (I can't use pikes, glaives, or halberds, that do have Reach).

So then I'd use the Longbow at range, the 1d10 sword as main attack, and then kicks and punches for Ki Bonus attacks. Are there any problems with this setup? Have you people had good experience with Longswords when playing a Monk?

[Foxhound438]

the problem with longsword is that it's not a "monk weapon" by the rules of 5e. It's a balance issue (despite some things being absurdly imbalanced *glares at GWM barbarians*)

You can't use dex for unarmed strikes or the longsword attacks, you lose dice on unarmed strikes, and don't get the free one bonus action attack.

[Drackolus]

Monks can't use longswords with their martial arts, unfortunately. It would, indeed, be the superior option if you could.

[Aell]

the problem with longsword is that it's not a "monk weapon" by the rules of 5e. It's a balance issue (despite some things being absurdly imbalanced *glares at GWM barbarians*) You can't use dex for unarmed strikes or the longsword attacks, you lose dice on unarmed strikes, and don't get the free one bonus action attack.

Oh, well that settles it then. Spear and light crossbow is what's left, then.

[darkmammoth]

Oh, well that settles it then. Does that mean the longbow is also out of the question, despite my wood-elf proficiency? And the spear?

For the longbow, yes it is the same situation as the long sword though using one from a distance then switching to something else as your foes move closer isn't a bad idea really. Spears are considered monk weapons and you are proficient in them. Consider javelins as well especially if you get a javelin of lightning as treasure.

[Belac93]

A longbow is still fine. You still get your extra attack from it, so it is actually superior to a light crossbow (which has the loading property).

[Drackolus]

My favorite ranged option for the monk is hucking daggers. You still get to use your monks unarmed damage die, if I'm not mistaken. Cheap and easy to replace, too.

[Lombra]

Personally I'd go for shortbow instead of light crossbow: sub-optimal but I love the flavour, and the bow doesn't have to be loaded in order to fire. It will be the best choice once you get extra attack too.

[Aell]

So currently I am level 4 with 18 dex, my Unarmed damage is 1D4 +4 with attack bonus of +6. A light crossbow would do 1D8 +4 damage and also have +6 attack bonus. How would it change if I switched to a Longbow, then? If we ignore that I can't use bonus monk attacks afterwards, do I get any stat penalty on the longbow?

I would only use the longbow when I wasn't planning on closing on the enemy anyway, and it would take the enemy more than one round to close with me too, so that I could switch to spear and bonus attacks once I close. My monk can still get 1D10 +4 with the bow? And Attack Bonus +6? As long as I switch to spear during closing? And I lose the "Loading" property and can resume longbow fire if I see more enemies from afar.

Can a wood elf monk use the lvl5 extra attack on a longbow?

[Lombra]

For ranged options the longbow is always better. But if you are in a fight and want to hit an enemy far away and then punch someone close the shortbow becomes better. You do get two longbow attacks at level 5, and do have all the bonuses that you have now for the crossbow.

[Joe the Rat]

So currently I am level 4 with 18 dex, my Unarmed damage is 1D4 +4 with attack bonus of +6. A light crossbow would do 1D8 +4 damage and also have +6 attack bonus. How would it change if I switched to a Longbow, then? If we ignore that I can't use bonus monk attacks afterwards, do I get any stat penalty on the longbow?

I would only use the longbow when I wasn't planning on closing on the enemy anyway, and it would take the enemy more than one round to close with me too, so that I could switch to spear and bonus attacks once I close. My monk can still get 1D10 +4 with the bow? And Attack Bonus +6? As long as I switch to spear during closing? And I lose the "Loading" property and can resume longbow fire if I see more enemies from afar.You will have the exact same attack and damage stats with the longbow. (dex based, 1d8 damage). Compared to the light crossbow, you get better range, and lose the loading property which allows more than one attack per round...


Can a wood elf monk use the lvl5 extra attack on a longbow?...which you can do at level 5.

Regarding the longsword: if you have the strength, it is a potential alternative, but not a great one. You will be doing 1d10+str x2 (with 1+str x2 on a flurry). as opposed to 1d8+dex x2, +1d6+dex (unarmed)(x2 on a flurry). The only way this works out better is if the longsword has a big damage rider. With a flametongue, yeah. with a garden variety longsword, +1? Not so much.

If you think you will need slashing damage, pick up a couple of hand axes. They'll only be d6 until your next unarmed damage bump, but they are monk weapons, so you get all the martial arts options, and they can be thrown (which is why I suggest getting two).

[Aell]

Thanks, Lombra!


You will have the exact same attack and damage stats with the longbow. (dex based, 1d8 damage). Compared to the light crossbow, you get better range, and lose the loading property which allows more than one attack per round, which you can do at level 5.

If you think you will need slashing damage, pick up a couple of hand axes. They'll only be d6 until your next unarmed damage bump, but they are monk weapons, so you get all the martial arts options, and they can be thrown (which is why I suggest getting two).

Interesting. How do you suggest a monk would incorporate the hand axes in an attack sequence? I would stow the longbow when the enemy is close, and I have the spear that does 1d8+4. If I go hand axe I do less damage, although I guess I can throw one and then use the ki bonus attacks. And then use the spear + unarmed strikes next round. Was that your idea?

[Sir cryosin]

If your DM allows Unearthed Arcana material there's that feat that boost the spear from a d8 to a d10 add +1 to attack and damage and can use it at reach.

[Mandragola]

I don't really think there's a lot of point in a monk taking feats to increase damage dice. That happens by itself as you level.

I played a wood elf monk. Longbow is useful as it gives two ranged attacks at 5th. You can't use martial arts after doing it, but you can't do that with any ranged weapon, as "melee" is one of the requirements of being a monk weapon. But the good news is that people will really struggle to shoot you back, because you can deflect/rebound their arrows.

For combat you ought to have a spear, a handaxe and your fists. Then you can pick what kind of damage you do.

[Aell]

I don't really think there's a lot of point in a monk taking feats to increase damage dice. That happens by itself as you level.

I played a wood elf monk. Longbow is useful as it gives two ranged attacks at 5th. You can't use martial arts after doing it, but you can't do that with any ranged weapon, as "melee" is one of the requirements of being a monk weapon. But the good news is that people will really struggle to shoot you back, because you can deflect/rebound their arrows.

For combat you ought to have a spear, a handaxe and your fists. Then you can pick what kind of damage you do.

Thanks for the writeup! In what situation do you mean I should use the handaxe over spear and bow?

[Mandragola]

Thanks for the writeup! In what situation do you mean I should use the handaxe over spear or unarmed?

Not often, to be honest. If you meet something that is vulnerable to slashing damage - but I'm not sure I can think of anything that applies to. Monk weapons mostly seem to do either bludgeoning or piercing damage, so a handaxe completes the set.

Of course if you find an awesome magic handaxe then you should use it.

[R.Shackleford]

My favorite ranged option for the monk is hucking daggers. You still get to use your monks unarmed damage die, if I'm not mistaken. Cheap and easy to replace, too.

Just remember, you can move and then attack with your unarmed strike after you chuck a dagger(s).

[Aell]

Just remember, you can move and then attack with your unarmed strike after you chuck a dagger(s).

Can I do the same with darts? Darts do the same damage but are cheaper. Or is dagger the only one, because it doesn't count as ranged?

[Mandragola]

The wording of martial arts is that you can use it after attacking with a monk weapon, which is a shortsword or a simple melee weapon which isn't two-handed or heavy. A dagger, handaxe, spear or light hammer would all qualify, as they are simple melee weapons that can be thrown at people. Darts aren't simple melee weapons, they are ranged weapons, and as such it doesn't work.

So basically don't use darts if you're a monk. Not only do they not work for your bonus attacks, their damage dice also do not scale as you level up. A dagger's dice does scale as it's a monk weapon. Bit weird but there you go.

[R.Shackleford]

Can I do the same with darts? Darts do the same damage but are cheaper. Or is dagger the only one, because it doesn't count as ranged?

Sadly the game is quite fiddly and weapons have specific types when it doesn't really make sense (darts could have been shurikens sigh). So no, you need a melee weapon.

[Aell]

Thanks, man.

If spear is a versatile monk weapon, does that mean I can use my Dex modifier on its attack bonus? So 1d8+4 with an AB of 6?

[R.Shackleford]

Thanks, man.

If spear is a versatile monk weapon, does that mean I can use my Dex modifier on its attack bonus? So 1d8+4 with an AB of 6?

Yup, you would add your dex mod if it is a monk weapon that isn't two handed (spear is versatile and not two handed).

[Mandragola]

Sadly the game is quite fiddly and weapons have specific types when it doesn't really make sense (darts could have been shurikens sigh). So no, you need a melee weapon.

Agreed. Monks are one of the areas where it is most fiddly.

The important thing is the keywords that you get from the weapons. Some weapons, like greatclubs and longbows, have the two-handed quality. Others, like the spear or quarterstaff, are versatile instead. It's the two-handed keyword, not the fact that you are using a weapon in two hands (as you can with versatile ones) that qualifies something as a monk weapon.

Martial artists use spears and staves in two hands in reality, because why wouldn't you? For once it's true to life... except that in dnd all* monks are wood elves.

*I know not quite all. Maybe as little as 99.99%.

[R.Shackleford]

Agreed. Monks are one of the areas where it is most fiddly.

The important thing is the keywords that you get from the weapons. Some weapons, like greatclubs and longbows, have the two-handed quality. Others, like the spear or quarterstaff, are versatile instead. It's the two-handed keyword, not the fact that you are using a weapon in two hands (as you can with versatile ones) that qualifies something as a monk weapon.

Martial artists use spears and staves in two hands in reality, because why wouldn't you? For once it's true to life... except that in dnd all* monks are wood elves.

*I know not quite all. Maybe as little as 99.99%.

I think most monks are Variant Humans with the free feat and then Wood Elves come second. Maybe.

[Mandragola]

I think most monks are Variant Humans with the free feat and then Wood Elves come second. Maybe.

Could be. Actually I think I see fewer variant human monks than I do some other classes. I think that's because monks don't need a feat as much as a lot of classes do, but they get a lot of mileage out of darkvision.

[Aell]

In my defense!, my last char (short training campaign, first time I ever played, back in November) was a Hill Dwarf monk. :.) More CON, also darkvision.

Another thought I had just now: daggers are finesse weapons, making them eligible for sneak attacks, right? Can I, as a monk with +6 in Stealth, sneak up on an enemy to within 20 feet and then throw a dagger at them and get some sort of sneak attack bonus damage? Despite not having any rogue levels?

[R.Shackleford]

In my defense!, my last char (short training campaign, first time I ever played, back in November) was a Hill Dwarf monk. :.) More CON, also darkvision.

Another thought I had just now: daggers are finesse weapons, making them eligible for sneak attacks, right? Can I, as a monk with +6 in Stealth, sneak up on an enemy to within 20 feet and then throw a dagger at them and get some sort of sneak attack bonus damage? Despite not having any rogue levels?

Sneak Attack needs Rogue Levels

I suggest Shadow Monk 6 / Rogue 14 for this build.

[RickAllison]

Thanks for the writeup! In what situation do you mean I should use the handaxe over spear and bow?

When you are facing a treant! They have the rather unique qualifier that they are resistant to all bludgeoning and piercing damage, not nonmagical or even restricted to weapon attacks (so treants are actually resistant to fall damage!). Even with the monk ability or a magic weapon, your non-slashing weapon attacks get resisted.