Are these clues good enough?

[Hollysword]

In my campaign, the heroes start in a wood elf village in a forest. Their first adventure is to investigate the cause of some animals being aggressive. Inside the cave, they'll find a wand of web and a shield with web details (just a Shield +1). Do you think (assuming the PCs are well versed in races) those two would be enough to give them clues about what/who they're dealing with? Or should I add more clues in other ways?

[Foxhound438]

if the players themselves aren't well versed in d&d lore, an intelligence (history) or (religion) check should let the characters know.

[Sigreid]

The best way I can answer your question is to say that I would assume that the drow were afoot. If that's correct, it's probably good enough clues. Assuming they put any thought into it at all.

[Hollysword]

if the players themselves aren't well versed in d&d lore, an intelligence (history) or (religion) check should let the characters know.

Probably history, yeah. Not sure how religion ties to this.

[Sigreid]

Probably history, yeah. Not sure how religion ties to this.

Religion could identify the race most likely to worship a spider queen, or be spiritually obsessed with spiders. I would make that a harder check than a history one. Maybe Moderate history or Hard Religion. After all, there have to be other spider cult nut-jobs out there.

[Hrugner]

It's enough that if the players don't figure it out on their own, they won't feel annoyed by the answer when they find someone who can figure it out for them.

[Hollysword]

I hope my party can figure it out then. Yes the drow are involved, but there are some twists. :smallwink:

[MBControl]

I think the clues are fine.

I also don't think the players need to "get it". The clues given are going tell them spiders or spidery like qualities, which should help them for the encounters to come, to a certain degree. A good history check should do the trick too.

I think there is value in new players exploring and experiencing a new world. This world is fresh for them, so let them be surprised and even confused at times. These are playable emotions that will be harder to evoke as the players become more knowledgeable about the lore of D&D. This the only time where a PC and player gain XP at the same rate. As the PC gets more levelled up the player will know more too. It's a great natural parallel that only ever happens once in a players D&D life.

I'm not saying leave them in the dark. Give them clues, and opportunities to learn (roll good checks), but don't feel the need spell things out for them. Let them spend time after the first fight to put the pieces together. They would realistically learn or recall more after investigating the bodies, equipment, and loot after they come into contact with them. Some PC may have a legit reason to simply know stuff, but beyond that, let them explore and learn.

[Gastronomie]

Clues don't need to be so explicit that the players can see everything that's gonna come after them. It's not like the adventurers are gonna die if they can't predict what the monster of the week is.

It's fine as it is. You could maybe even make it less obvious, and keep it to just "a poison arrow piercing the head of a dead goblin" and "scattered strands of spider silk".

[Ninja_Prawn]

if the players themselves aren't well versed in d&d lore, an intelligence (history) or (religion) check should let the characters know.

Agreed.

@Hollysword: there's a distinction to make between giving 'clues' that just flesh out the setting and provide a neat 'discovery' for players who like to explore the world, and clues that the PCs need to correctly interpret in order to solve a mystery and progress the plot.

If they don't need to know that drow are involved, the clues you have are fine. If, on the other hand, they do need to know (such as if the next thing to do is speak to the quiet drow hermit who lives in the village because she is actually an ex-priestess of Lolth), I'd say the clues are insufficient. Especially because they look like loot. Some players might be used to randomly-generated loot (even if they're not D&D veterans), or they might not find them, or might just fail to make the connection due to being distracted or unaware that they even need to look for 'clues'.

A decent rule of thumb is to give three clues in such situations. I'd call the themed loot one clue (even though it's two objects), because if they miss one, they have missed both.

[Hollysword]

Agreed.

@Hollysword: there's a distinction to make between giving 'clues' that just flesh out the setting and provide a neat 'discovery' for players who like to explore the world, and clues that the PCs need to correctly interpret in order to solve a mystery and progress the plot.

If they don't need to know that drow are involved, the clues you have are fine. If, on the other hand, they do need to know (such as if the next thing to do is speak to the quiet drow hermit who lives in the village because she is actually an ex-priestess of Lolth), I'd say the clues are insufficient. Especially because they look like loot. Some players might be used to randomly-generated loot (even if they're not D&D veterans), or they might not find them, or might just fail to make the connection due to being distracted or unaware that they even need to look for 'clues'.

A decent rule of thumb is to give three clues in such situations. I'd call the themed loot one clue (even though it's two objects), because if they miss one, they have missed both.

I wouldn't say they need to know about the clues. It's just there to give them an idea on what to expect from the campaign IF they find out. If not... they'll run into the drow anyway when the time comes.

[ad_hoc]

If I were playing I would be much more intrigued about why such powerful magical artifacts are just lying around in a cave.

If that is not intended to be part of the mystery I would rethink the nature of the items.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I wouldn't say they need to know about the clues. It's just there to give them an idea on what to expect from the campaign IF they find out. If not... they'll run into the drow anyway when the time comes.

Yeah, so you're fine.

[Hollysword]

If I were playing I would be much more intrigued about why such powerful magical artifacts are just lying around in a cave.

If that is not intended to be part of the mystery I would rethink the nature of the items.

There is a reason to it. The players will have to find out if they're curious... it's just history though. Then again, history can help PCs prepare and avoid surprises. But nothing important.

The drow put the wand, wrapped in silk, inside the cave for safekeeping many years back. Since then, animals started entering the caves and making it their home, while a wood elf village grew nearby. The shield belongs to a drow who wanted to pick up the wand for safety before the wood elves find it but ultimately he fell to the beasts inside. (place is suitable for a party of 2... the drow tried to solo it, with poor results)

[Zanthy1]

There is a reason to it. The players will have to find out if they're curious... it's just history though. Then again, history can help PCs prepare and avoid surprises. But nothing important.

The drow put the wand, wrapped in silk, inside the cave for safekeeping many years back. Since then, animals started entering the caves and making it their home, while a wood elf village grew nearby. The shield belongs to a drow who wanted to pick up the wand for safety before the wood elves find it but ultimately he fell to the beasts inside. (place is suitable for a party of 2... the drow tried to solo it, with poor results)

I dig the reasons.

[Joe the Rat]

With NP on this one - you're giving hints and foreshadowing, enough that if they cotton on they will know what to look for, but if they miss it they will be surprised (in the "gasp! plot twist!" sense, not the can't act in the first round of combat sense).

You can get a second pass at this with the shield. It's large enough to be easily notable by NPCs, which may elicit questions or reactions from someone in the know.

[Ninja_Prawn]

You can get a second pass at this with the shield. It's large enough to be easily notable by NPCs, which may elicit questions or reactions from someone in the know.

True. You could even exploit the fact that web-like designs are sometimes used for Cursed Shields of Missile Attraction... :smallamused:

...Which has now given me an amusing mental image of 'ambulance chasing' clerics going after adventuring parties offering to remove cursed items. "No curse, no fee!"

[Joe the Rat]

Given that clerics are also the ambulances, "ambulance chasing clerics" creates an amusing image.

[mgshamster]

A few things to remember when giving out clues and hints (not related to your problem specifically, but in general):

1) People are usually really bad at understanding hints. This is an extremely common issue for people in new relationships; don't expect your players to be any better than the average person unless you personally have known them well for many decades. Sometimes you have to be very explicit - especially if you've already tried hinting and that didn't work.

2) Players are generally bad at connecting the dots. I say this as a player, not a GM. The reason is because the players don't know the whole story (unlike the GM), and they only interact with the story for a few hours per session (usually per week). This means that something you told them three months ago may not be at the forefront of their brain when you do the reveal. It's also true when watching a TV Series, which is why they do relevant recaps at the beginning of some episodes.

And because they don't know the whole story, two or three things which seem obvious to you may not be obvious to them. I've been on both ends of this; I've been frustrated that my players didn't "get it" when it seemed obvious to me (boy was I wrong), and I've had GM's get frustrated at me for not getting it. It's not that players are dumb, it's that they have less information than the GM and less time spent thinking about it, and don't see the same connections you see. They don't know how the situation will play out; you do (which leads us to 3).

3) Clues and hints are more obvious when you already know the solution. This is the old Hindsight is 20/20 gig; once you know how to solve something, it can often seem obvious what the solution is. My old freshman chemistry teacher used to say, "it's easy if you know how." I hated that phrase back then, because damn that stuff was hard. But by the time I was done with college, all that stuff I thought was so hard back then, was actually really easy - once I knew how.

Your players don't know the solution and may not see what you see as obvious. They won't always be able to connect the dots. And they don't think about the game as often as you do, nor with the same amount of information you have.

If you want your players to know something, just tell them. If they're not connecting the dots that you want them to connect, make that connection for them. You don't have to give away everything, but subtly is often going to be passed up. This is part of the challenging art of the GM - knowing when to give out information and knowing when to hold back and let them solve it on their own. And to top it all off, different players prefer different levels of challenge (some want less information so they can solve it, some just want to be told the story and roll some dice for combat, and everything in between).

[Hollysword]

I can just picture the paladin's answer when some NPCs confront him about the shield. "Picked this up from a dead guy, looks cool" (INT is his dump stat).

Also, while the cleric is known around the wood elf village, the paladin is from a nearby nature circle and not as well known. I can picture elves would be a lot more wary and confrontational if they see the shield on him.

[Sigreid]

Given that clerics are also the ambulances, "ambulance chasing clerics" creates an amusing image.

That would be the priest and priestesses of Sune that are the ambulances being chased then?

[Vogonjeltz]

If I were playing I would be much more intrigued about why such powerful magical artifacts are just lying around in a cave.

If that is not intended to be part of the mystery I would rethink the nature of the items.

I'd also have to wonder, without something to tie those specific objects to the animals being aggressive, wouldn't it just be a coincidence?

Like, what is it about them that suggests there's any connection at all? They just happen to be proximate to the woods where animals are acting more aggressively than usual? Have the characters been to this cave before such that these objects being there is a new and strange phenomenon?

As way of comparison, let's say the characters grew up here and roamed the woods their entire lives; this cave is one of the characters special place to go and think, they know it like the back of their own hand.

So imagine their surprise upon going to investigate and encountering aggressive creatures near the cave. As the players get closer they may notice there are several trees that have been knocked down in the direction of the cave, and upon arriving they find a scorched trail leading into the cave. Following up on this, they discover a large glowing meteorite that has apparently crashed and rolled into the cave. Surrounding it are a circle of rabbits staring intently. Upon noticing the players arrival (assuming PCs aren't trying to be stealthy, in which case regular hiding rules apply) the rabbits turn, with a demonic glow in their eyes, and...attack! (roll initiative).

Do you see how in the example given, one clue naturally leads to another, which leads to the discovery of something either directly responsible or related to the problem?

A random wand and shield that happen to have a spider emblem don't tell me anything other than the the owner/crafter liked web designs. It might suggest a Drow....or any adventurer like the party who happened upon it one day.

Effectively this tells us nothing unless you are looking at it from a meta-game perspective where it's a chekov's gun and there has to be a purpose to it if it's mentioned in the story.

The real mystery here as mentioned by ad_hoc, why are magic items in a cave unattended? Either one of those things is incredibly valuable, so it's weird that someone would leave it at all. The explanation given is pretty loose (Safekeeping? As opposed to on their person or in a locked chest? If this occurred some time back, what does this have to do with the animals unusual behavior? The events seem totally disconnected based on the explanation provided.)

[Hollysword]

I'd also have to wonder, without something to tie those specific objects to the animals being aggressive, wouldn't it just be a coincidence?

Like, what is it about them that suggests there's any connection at all? They just happen to be proximate to the woods where animals are acting more aggressively than usual? Have the characters been to this cave before such that these objects being there is a new and strange phenomenon?

As way of comparison, let's say the characters grew up here and roamed the woods their entire lives; this cave is one of the characters special place to go and think, they know it like the back of their own hand.

So imagine their surprise upon going to investigate and encountering aggressive creatures near the cave. As the players get closer they may notice there are several trees that have been knocked down in the direction of the cave, and upon arriving they find a scorched trail leading into the cave. Following up on this, they discover a large glowing meteorite that has apparently crashed and rolled into the cave. Surrounding it are a circle of rabbits staring intently. Upon noticing the players arrival (assuming PCs aren't trying to be stealthy, in which case regular hiding rules apply) the rabbits turn, with a demonic glow in their eyes, and...attack! (roll initiative).

Do you see how in the example given, one clue naturally leads to another, which leads to the discovery of something either directly responsible or related to the problem?

A random wand and shield that happen to have a spider emblem don't tell me anything other than the the owner/crafter liked web designs. It might suggest a Drow....or any adventurer like the party who happened upon it one day.

Effectively this tells us nothing unless you are looking at it from a meta-game perspective where it's a chekov's gun and there has to be a purpose to it if it's mentioned in the story.

The real mystery here as mentioned by ad_hoc, why are magic items in a cave unattended? Either one of those things is incredibly valuable, so it's weird that someone would leave it at all. The explanation given is pretty loose (Safekeeping? As opposed to on their person or in a locked chest? If this occurred some time back, what does this have to do with the animals unusual behavior? The events seem totally disconnected based on the explanation provided.)

I just explained why there's a wand and shield inside the cave. Look at my previous post, I put it in spoiler tags. And no, the wand isn't related to the animals going aggressive. In fact the animals going aggressive is directly messing with the drow's plans.

[Draco4472]

Those are great, if not fairly obvious clues, but perhaps it may not be the best idea to give a party 2 magic items off the bat. I of course, lack any context and have no knowledge of your campaign other then that the Drow are plotting shenanigans and your party gets involved.

So maybe this comment was completely pointless. :smallbiggrin:

[Hollysword]

I actually did have my worries about giving them some magic items, powerful ones too. I actually made a thread about my doubts, but in the end it's fine given the party only has 2 people.

[Safety Sword]

It lends authenticity (and ANOTHER possible History check) if the shield and wand are destroyed if exposed to sunlight.

It removes the problem of giving away a +1 shield for wandering into a cave.

[Hollysword]

Would that be a good idea though? It's like giving them a gift then taking it away again. The players might feel it's a scam, specially this early.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Would that be a good idea though? It's like giving them a gift then taking it away again. The players might feel it's a scam, specially this early.

Agreed. That'd be needlessly harsh. It might be fair if you gave them a warning, like "the moment you bring your new shield out into the sunlight, it starts to hiss and steam, melting at the edges. Bits of it start to crumble away under your fingers!"

That allows them to quickly duck back into the shade before any harm is done. My understanding is that pure adamantium decomposes in sunlight, but adamantium-iron alloys don't, so that gives you a) a way to take advantage of a seldom-used dwarf racial trait (if you have a dwarf in the party) and b) an option for the players re-forge the shield to make it usable.

[Safety Sword]

Would that be a good idea though? It's like giving them a gift then taking it away again. The players might feel it's a scam, specially this early.
If you're comfortable with them having it then just let them have it.

I wouldn't give characters a +1 shield for not much effort. Magic items aren't special if there are too many or they're too easily obtained.

However, in many incarnations of D&D drow weapons do not tolerate sunlight. If you want to be leaving clues to that effect, then it's a big one.

[Segev]

In my campaign, the heroes start in a wood elf village in a forest. Their first adventure is to investigate the cause of some animals being aggressive. Inside the cave, they'll find a wand of web and a shield with web details (just a Shield +1). Do you think (assuming the PCs are well versed in races) those two would be enough to give them clues about what/who they're dealing with? Or should I add more clues in other ways?


The best way I can answer your question is to say that I would assume that the drow were afoot. If that's correct, it's probably good enough clues. Assuming they put any thought into it at all.

Sigreid's reaction is mine. If that's all you want them to discern from these clues, then they're perfect. If they're to pick up on the "twist" from these alone...well, I don't know what said "twist" might be, so it wouldn't be sufficient for me. Not by itself.

[Vogonjeltz]

I just explained why there's a wand and shield inside the cave. Look at my previous post, I put it in spoiler tags. And no, the wand isn't related to the animals going aggressive. In fact the animals going aggressive is directly messing with the drow's plans.

I know, I said, "The explanation given is pretty loose (Safekeeping? As opposed to on their person or in a locked chest? If this occurred some time back, what does this have to do with the animals unusual behavior? The events seem totally disconnected based on the explanation provided.)"

As you've indicated the cave has nothing to do with the animals, then the adventure hooks are a bunch of non-sequiturs. There's no reason in particular to head to the cave other than that you've presented a cave, you haven't provided anything in the cave to explain the animal attacks, so the drow items would just mislead the players into thinking the two were related.

[Sigreid]

I know, I said, "The explanation given is pretty loose (Safekeeping? As opposed to on their person or in a locked chest? If this occurred some time back, what does this have to do with the animals unusual behavior? The events seem totally disconnected based on the explanation provided.)"

As you've indicated the cave has nothing to do with the animals, then the adventure hooks are a bunch of non-sequiturs. There's no reason in particular to head to the cave other than that you've presented a cave, you haven't provided anything in the cave to explain the animal attacks, so the drow items would just mislead the players into thinking the two were related.

I disagree simply because archaeologists have been able to show that hiding stashes of weapons and supplies that you can access when needed in caves is something that in the real world mankind has been doing since at least the stone age.

[Vogonjeltz]

I disagree simply because archaeologists have been able to show that hiding stashes of weapons and supplies that you can access when needed in caves is something that in the real world mankind has been doing since at least the stone age.

What does that have to do with the unrelated animal attacks??

[Hollysword]

The animals being aggressive is because of another villain. The drow is simply caught in it too. But I don't want the players to instantly know that.

[Sigreid]

What does that have to do with the unrelated animal attacks??

I may have mixed you up in my brain with another commentor. I was thinking the objection was "why the heck would this stuff be just lying there in the cave with the animals?" and was responding with "The drow were setting up a cache and the animals moved in later".