Nature Cleric / Druid Woes

[JellyPooga]

OK, so I'm looking at Nature Cleric and the abilities it gets are awesome;
- Acolyte of Nature is meh; the extra skill is flavoursome, but not powerful.
- Heavy Armour is...out of place, IMO. NOt sure what's going on there fluff-wise, but I'll take it.
- Dampen Elements is where we really start taking off; unlimited use of a Reaction to Resist any of the "elemental" damage types? Great stuff.
- Divine Strike doesn't get Radiant, but it gets a choice of three (three!) other damage types. Talk about versatility.
- Master of Nature makes Acolyte of Nature almost broken. Almost. One bonus action to direct the actions of as many beasts and plants you can cram into 30ft? That's got some potential.

More importantly, most of the above is the sort of things I'm seeing in my minds eye when I think "Druid"; master of beasts/plants and the elements. Unfortunately, the Nature Domain spells simply aren't the entire Druid spell list; a couple salient points, but they're not the whole thing.

Given the similarity between Cleric and Druid, how much would it change the dynamics of either class to either let Nature Clerics choose from the Druid Spell List (instead of Cleric Spells) or to port the Nature Cleric Domain features over to the Druid somehow?

My first thought was to create a new Druid Circle that granted the Nature Cleric features, scrapping Wild Shape for Channel Divinity (including Turn Undead, but not Destroy), but that raises problems with the difference between getting Master of Nature at 14th instead of 17th (see the arguments about the UA Divine Wizard or whatever it's called for opinions on that!) as well as the Druid capstone.

My second thought was just giving the Nature Cleric the ability to choose off the Druid Spell list instead of Cleric, but I'm...uneasy with that for some reason I can't put my finger on.

Any thoughts on the subject would be welcome.

P.S. If anyone has some thoughts on snagging or including Archfey Warlock features/Invocations (e.g. Beast Speech) or Ranger features like Primeval Awareness and Land's Stride into such a build, I'd be interested to hear them too.

Ranger 2/Archfey Warlock 3/Circle Druid 6/Nature Cleric 9 would sort of cover all the bases, but would be woefully inadequate compared to even a casually optimised build. No 9th level slots, no spells known/prepared over 5th level, one attack per round (so not making the most of Divine Strike); it's generally a weak build, albeit flavoursome. I'm looking for something with a bit more...bite :smallamused:

[hymer]

Given the similarity between Cleric and Druid, how much would it change the dynamics of either class to either let Nature Clerics choose from the Druid Spell List (instead of Cleric Spells) or to port the Nature Cleric Domain features over to the Druid somehow?

I'm definitely biased, but still: The druid spell list is awesome. The cleric list is good, but I'd toss it any day I wasn't going to be a dedicated healer for the druid list. Even as a primary healing character I might do it anyway, because even dedicated healers need to do some fun things sometimes, and the druid list is just better at that than the cleric list.

[Mandragola]

I tend to think that the writers knew what they intended to do when they limited druid spells to druids. In fluff terms it's meant to be a distinct spell list to that of a cleric, representing power that comes from nature itself rather than a god. This line gets rather blurred though, with gods of nature. Nature gods are still gods, so you still get to channel divinity, speak to angels and stuff - rather than talk to trees and animals.

For power terms, the line isn't blurred in my opinion. Summoning stuff is the druid's thing (and the ranger's, much later on). Summoning is very powerful, which is why it's limited. Druids don't get to go around in plate (and I agree it's weird that nature clerics do, but it seems to be for balance reasons).

So nature clerics do seem odd. But it seems like they are the way they are for legitimate in-game reasons. You shouldn't get to be a druid in plate, which is essentially what you're proposing.

I agree with you that the nature cleric spell list is underwhelming. To be honest lots of the domain lists are, but some feature awesome stuff, which makes them seem better picks. The highlight for me is tempest clerics getting the paladin-only spell destructive wave at level 9, rather than level 17 for the paladin.

I could see an argument for giving players a bit more choice on what the domain spells they get are. But clerics should not get to conjure animals etc. in my opinion.

[JellyPooga]

I'm definitely biased, but still: The druid spell list is awesome.

You shouldn't get to be a druid in plate, which is essentially what you're proposing.

I agree wholeheartedly. I'd be more interested in your thoughts on porting Nature Cleric Domain Features to the Druid, than vice versa (so to speak). Something like;


Druids of this Circle usually devote themselves to a Nature Deity, but some pray directly to nature herself...yadda yadda yadda.

2nd Level: Wildshape - Druids of this Circle do not gain the ability to Wild Shape. They also do not gain the Beast Spells or Archdruid features at 18th and 20th level respectively.

Channel Divinity - As Cleric (6th: 2/rest, 18th: 3/rest)
- Turn Undead (as Cleric)
- Charm Animals and Plants (As Nature Domain)

6th Level - Dampen Elements (As Nature Domain)

10th Level - Divine Strike (As Nature Domain)

14th Level - Master of Nature (As Nature Domain)

20th Level - Divine Intervention (As Cleric)

I'm thinking the wholesale loss of Wild Shape should make up for getting Channel Divinity, Master of Nature earlier and Divine Intervention as a capstone. It's lazy homebrewing, but I think it about balances out. Any holes, obvious or otherwise, that I'm missing?

[Saggo]

I agree wholeheartedly. I'd be more interested in your thoughts on porting Nature Cleric Domain Features to the Druid, than vice versa (so to speak). Something like;


Druids of this Circle usually devote themselves to a Nature Deity, but some pray directly to nature herself...yadda yadda yadda.

2nd Level: Wildshape - Druids of this Circle do not gain the ability to Wild Shape. They also do not gain the Beast Spells or Archdruid features at 18th and 20th level respectively.

Channel Divinity - As Cleric (6th: 2/rest, 18th: 3/rest)
- Turn Undead (as Cleric)
- Charm Animals and Plants (As Nature Domain)

6th Level - Dampen Elements (As Nature Domain)

10th Level - Divine Strike (As Nature Domain)

14th Level - Master of Nature (As Nature Domain)

20th Level - Divine Intervention (As Cleric)

I'm thinking the wholesale loss of Wild Shape should make up for getting Channel Divinity, Master of Nature earlier and Divine Intervention as a capstone. It's lazy homebrewing, but I think it about balances out. Any holes, obvious or otherwise, that I'm missing?

I feel Wild Shape and Turn Undead/Divine Intervention are quintessential to the Druid and Cleric base classes and shouldn't be removed or added respectively. Otherwise, comparing Land to Nature Domain, you're trading better spellcasting and passive nature buffs for active nature/combat abilities which I would think this is a fair trade.

[JellyPooga]

I feel Wild Shape and Turn Undead/Divine Intervention are quintessential to the Druid and Cleric base classes and shouldn't be removed or added respectively.

Hmm. The line between Cleric and Druid is a fine one at the best of times, so I don't have that much of a problem switching "key" abilities like that if they make sense for the character.

Clerics would still have the unique advantage of being able to Destroy Undead and the spell lists, as has been pointed out, are very distinct from one another. Forgoing the utility of Wild Shape for Channel Divinity; one (Charm A/P) that's largely a utility until 14th level and another (Turn Undead) that's more combat oriented seems about right. Thematically it works from a Undead =/= Nature point of view.

On the subject of the capstone, Clerics would still enjoy having D.Intervention from 10th level onwards, giving them that little bit of niche protection and it's a 1/week GM-dependent deal anyway, so I shouldn't think it will break the game (certainly not compared to the "infinite HP" Archdruid feature).

Thanks for the input, though :smallbiggrin:

[hymer]

I'm thinking the wholesale loss of Wild Shape should make up for getting Channel Divinity, Master of Nature earlier and Divine Intervention as a capstone. It's lazy homebrewing, but I think it about balances out. Any holes, obvious or otherwise, that I'm missing?

It starts slow, but then picks up speed. It's much more of a melee combatant than the average druid.
I'd say the game could function with it. Divine Intervention does come on a little hard, going from 0 to 100 in one level. But that's just my aesthetics being annoyed, I suppose.

[DragonSorcererX]

- Heavy Armour is...out of place, IMO. NOt sure what's going on there fluff-wise, but I'll take it.

Splint Mail isn't forbidden for Druids...

[RickAllison]

Splint Mail isn't forbidden for Druids...

Also note that Druids who are followers of Mielikki don't actually have that restriction on non-metal defensive gear. Because they are more... active enforcers of protection of the forest and its life, they are allowed to use whatever weapons and armor her rangers can use. So make your druid a follower of Mielikki and wear that half-plate with pride!

[Rysto]

Splint Mail isn't forbidden for Druids...

Why not? It's metal armour, isn't it?

[JumboWheat01]

Why not? It's metal armour, isn't it?

That's a thing people need to remember. You can HAVE heavier armors made out of other materials besides metal. A dragon scale scale mail, for an instant example. Still scale mail armor, but it's not made out of metal. Or how about half-plate armor made out of solid bones rather than metal plates?

While the PHB (and probably the DMG, not too sure,) talks up most armors above hide as metallic, you can easily replace the materials an armor is made from. More expensive, no doubt, but it can be done.

[RickAllison]

That's a thing people need to remember. You can HAVE heavier armors made out of other materials besides metal. A dragon scale scale mail, for an instant example. Still scale mail armor, but it's not made out of metal. Or how about half-plate armor made out of solid bones rather than metal plates?

While the PHB (and probably the DMG, not too sure,) talks up most armors above hide as metallic, you can easily replace the materials an armor is made from. More expensive, no doubt, but it can be done.

Heck, the average adventurer is more likely to have a supply of bones and other parts looted from enemies' bodies than metal!

[JellyPooga]

That's a thing people need to remember. You can HAVE heavier armors made out of other materials besides metal.

It's not a question of availability for me, so much as it's a question of character style and training. I don't see Druids as the Heavy Armour types, as a rule, not like Clerics or Fighters. Think of a Druid, any Druid, just your average run-of-the-mill, everyday Druid; I'm guessing he's wearing a robe. Maybe some hides.

The dragon-plate Druid is doable and kinda cool, but in my mind it's a fringe case, not the norm. I'd prefer to see Druids wirh Unarmoured AC (possibly based on Charisma, going for the "fey protection of the forest" feel and to create synergy with Ancients Paladin) than Heavy Armour proficiency. Failing that, multiclassing Barbarian or especially Monk will have to suffice!

[MrStabby]

I agree I don't see the nature cleric either as a heavy armoured type. Giving them the druid spell list and swapping heavy armoured proficiency for unarmoured defence (wisdom) would work for me.

Otherwise (on a similarly lazy basis) I could see a land druid with a divine domain to get things like: bless, spiritual weapon, aid, commune etc., but I don't really like the wildshape feature.

[JellyPooga]

but I don't really like the wildshape feature.

See, this is the thing for me. I don't dislike Wild Shape, but I also don't see it as a core Druid ability; for me, I feel like it should have been incorporated as a Circle feature, not a basic Druid one. The Druid as a nature priest has no requirement to have Wild Shape, yet the closest we can get to the non-shapeshifting nature priest is the inexplicably heavy-armoured Nature Cleric...which doesn't work for me at all. It's like there's a big hole where the robe-wearing, non-combative (non-wild shaping) priest of nature archetype should be. Where's the divine/nature-themed equivalent of the Wizard?