3rd party rules can also be our friends

[Shinn]

Hey there,

I've seen here and on many other websites some... Reluctance with 3rd party books and their rules. That's perfectly understandable, but some of them are quite useful and balanced. So I suggest to use this thread to post some obscure 3rd party rules that you like and that you find balanced or useful for the other books.

Here's mine :
Many roleplayers are arguing about "how can a non-adventuring NPC become level 20", so The Codex Persona did a quite elegant rule for that.
Every NPC starts with the first level of his/her class, as long as it's a mature adult. Then, you get some new class level with these requirements :
- +1 class level for each age category
- +1 for each social rank climbed (max +4)
- +1 for a public honor, such as knighthood (max +2)
- +1 for each major post, such as a noble title (max +2)
- +2 for each ruling title (max +4)
- +2 for being worshipped as a god (one time only)
- +2 for becoming a god (one time only).
- +N for raising to adulthood or for teaching at least 1 x2^(N-1) people.

It's way more understandable to have, saying, a fifth-level artisan who got his levels by having succesfully teached his knowledge to eight apprentices than by a simple "he's really really good at this".

[Thurbane]

Ooh, I like this as an idea for a thread! When I get back to my books at home, I'll dig through a few to see if I can find any good rules. I've got quite of lot of 3rd party books, so I'm sure I'll be able to find something!

[One Step Two]

Well, anyone who has seen me post regarding third party materials can guess my endorsement already!

All the Third party supplements for the Dragonlance Campaign setting have my great approval. There's some slightly questionable stuff in there, no doubts, but it offers such amazing diversity that rounds out the world of Krynn for the setting superbly. Published by Margaret Weiss, the author of Dragonlance, the books a jam packed with flavor for the setting.

Notable items include:

Races of Ansalon, for expanding the base races of the setting, and givein some truly amazing Racial Alternate Class features, and Prestige classes such as the Kender Handler, the Golden Hammers (Dwarven War Chanters for the win!), and Gnomish Tinkerers.

Towers of High Sorcery has oodles of interesting tidbits about High Sorcery, and one of the coolest spells I've seen for utility: Arcane staff, a spell used to use your mundane quarterstaff to hold additional spells per day for you, much like Mnemonic Enhancer does.

And finally, Knightly orders of Ansalon. Leave your wizards in their towers, it's time for Jousting, courtly intrigue and Duels of Honor. Admittedly, it contains very little in terms of power for Prestige classes for the Knightly Orders, but they're nothing to sneeze at either, packed full of flavor and the book has plenty of background on the orders.

[nyjastul69]

I've always liked the ship templates in Salt & Sea Dogs by Kenzerco.

[inuyasha]

Oh man, I have too many to count.

I'm a huge fan of Goodman Games' Book of Templates though, those templates are really versatile and have helped make boring encounters really interesting.

[digiman619]

While I generally recommend Spheres of Power by Drop Dead Studios, that might be a bit more extensive than what you had in mind. In that case, I suggest Cerulean Seas: Underwater Campaign Guide by Alluria Publishing if you ever want to do an underwater campaign.

[Beheld]

In what is just "Homebrew" and not anything Party, but is of higher quality than... almost everything published by Wotc, Piazo, or any third party, I recommend The Gaming Den Community Material and The Tomes from the same location. I mean, it's certainly got it's flaws, but certainly no more than official material.

[atemu1234]

Hey there,

I've seen here and on many other websites some... Reluctance with 3rd party books and their rules. That's perfectly understandable, but some of them are quite useful and balanced. So I suggest to use this thread to post some obscure 3rd party rules that you like and that you find balanced or useful for the other books.

Here's mine :
Many roleplayers are arguing about "how can a non-adventuring NPC become level 20", so The Codex Persona did a quite elegant rule for that.
Every NPC starts with the first level of his/her class, as long as it's a mature adult. Then, you get some new class level with these requirements :
- +1 class level for each age category
- +1 for each social rank climbed (max +4)
- +1 for a public honor, such as knighthood (max +2)
- +1 for each major post, such as a noble title (max +2)
- +2 for each ruling title (max +4)
- +2 for being worshipped as a god (one time only)
- +2 for becoming a god (one time only).
- +N for raising to adulthood or for teaching at least 1 x2^(N-1) people.

It's way more understandable to have, saying, a fifth-level artisan who got his levels by having succesfully teached his knowledge to eight apprentices than by a simple "he's really really good at this".

Or that the witch got to level 20 just by raising goblin babies to adulthood? (granted, it would take raising half a million to get anywhere near that, but you've probably got time, provided you play an elf, and when you get to level twelve (4,096 goblin babies) become a lich.

In general, our problem on this site with third party is that it has less peer review. Yes, first-party content is often unbalanced, but people read it and write online, "This is unbalanced."

Obscure third-party books (most 3e ones spring to mind) lack that review, and new or inexperienced DMs do bad with the carte blanche therein provided.

[thorr-kan]

Raging Swan Press has high quality, good production values, and excellent pricing on...everything: adventures, settings, races, NPCs.

Kobold Press is also wonderful for flavor, rules, etc. I'm a patron of multiple projects going back *years* and I approve, heartily.

[EldritchWeaver]

While I generally recommend Spheres of Power by Drop Dead Studios, that might be a bit more extensive than what you had in mind.

No love for Dreamscarred Press' Path of War? :P


Raging Swan Press has high quality, good production values, and excellent pricing on...everything: adventures, settings, races, NPCs.

I wholeheartily recommmend raging Swan Press, that material concentrates on the often missed background stuff and is a wealth of inspiration.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I like Dreamscarred Press (especially Path of War), the only complaint being PoW feels very player-focused rather than GM-friendly. Akashic Mysteries is my favorite book of theirs that I feel hits an appropriate balance. As for actual rules, I greatly endorse Drop Dead Studio's Ships of Skybourne as a system for creating airships (and other vehicles. Like mechs!). It also has an index of premade craft, with a wonderful amount of variety (and prices, if you don't want to stretch verisimilitude). And, most mundane but useful of all, it has rules for falling times! Objects fall 500 feet the first round, 1000 feet every following round.

[Segev]

To be fair, if you just view it through the lens of GitP, Dreamscarred Press can almost seem like first party material; it tends to get that much respect around here.


Hrm. Favorite third-party material. I am not sure this can be considered "balanced," but in the Game of Thrones d20 book (which was, I think, the first effort at such a thing; I understand a newer RPG book for the setting has come out that's better overall), it has a "child" template that actually comes in a -1 LA and -2 LA flavor (for increasing youth). It's ... probably either unplayable or overpowered in a traditional D&D campaign, depending how you use it. Given that it comes with a Cha bonus, it's ideal for playing the kid-sorcerer whose powers have awakened early and strongly. But being a whole level ahead of everyone else, or getting a free +1 LA template...could be problematic.

(My favorite, highly abusive build using it is to go for a 2-year-old white dragonspawn dragonwrought kobold. Net LA of 0, with a full Sorcerer level ahead of his HD and a massive Cha bonus.)

Again, not balanced, per se, but...interesting.


The template is meant to play kid-nobles and urchins.

[Afgncaap5]

I've mentioned it before 'round these parts, but I'm a huge fan of the d20 retrofit to Adventure!. While the book is meant more for pulp fiction adventure than fantasy adventure, there's a few places where those things intersect and I feel like they work well together (especially if you play in Eberron or the seedier parts of Greyhawk or Neverwinter.) Two rules that I think work well together:

-Chase scenes: I don't have the book with me, but the "chase rules" section from the d20 Adventure! book is actually something that they borrowed from another 3rd party publisher that I can't recall the name for. Effectively, it's open source rules for running chase scenes almost like a mini-game. Basically, the pursuer has a small set of options and the pursued has a small set of options, and each round they choose an option without knowing what the other will do. You use a chart to compare the results, and it (usually) either makes the pursued pull away from the pursuer, or allows the pursuer to get closer. The terms for the maneuvers definitely have car chases in mind, but they work just as well for chases by foot, air skiff, floating disc, hover-taxi, or whatever your favorite means of conveyance is. Basically a perfect thing to pull out if you're in Sharn.

-Background Feats: this kind of thing makes more sense in pulp fiction stories than standard adventures, but basically they're a collection of feats that you can take that flesh out your backstory and give you some perks. So if you want to play The Rocketeer, take the Gadget feat to represent your rocket pack. If you're playing someone like Scrooge McDuck, take a Stronghold feat for your Money Bin and the Deep Pockets feat for your frankly ludicrous spending power. Even better, Adventure! says that players get a free Background feat at first level (in addition to the usual 1st level feat). My players have employed these feats in Eberron to great effect; one player played a Lhazarian pirate who used the Gadget feat chain to start off with a +1 Thundering sword that left a black spot on the palm of anyone it killed and sounded like canon-fire whenever she landed a critical hit (named, appropriately enough, The Black Spot.) Another player used the Animal Companion background feats to get a weak Griffon that acted as his steed back when he was a member of Aundaire's Eldeen Reaches forces (until Aundaire basically abandoned the Reaches to fend for themselves). (As a sidenote: he's using stats for a wimpy hippogriff until he can get a few feats higher on that feat chain.)

-Research and Development: I don't use this too heavily, but it's a really nice way to introduce some variety into D&D's plug-and-play style magic items. I don't use many of the knack/superpower items from the system since Vancian magic sort of overwhelms the capabilities of those things already, but the "Advancement" capabilities introduced by the system for giving creatures increases to their ability scores, giving weaponry improved damage or range or ammunition, or increasing the speed of given items feels appropriate. Eberron still benefits greatly from this given the setting's focus on mercantile disputes and magical secrets (heck, the magebred template is pretty much what you get from some modest Organism Advancements), but I think this part could show up well in almost any setting.

[digiman619]

No love for Dreamscarred Press' Path of War? :P

No, I loathe it. That's why I would never GM a PbP game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493133-Legacy-of-Fire-PoW-SoP-Edition!-(IC-Thread)) that used it as a primary focus. That'd be silly.

[Thurbane]

I was flipping through the Midnight campaign setting, and I really love the Heroic Destiny option for PCs. Basically, you chose one the 20 or so destines, and you get thematically linked SLAs/special ability at each level increase. The fluff is fairly heavily ties to the campaign setting, but mechanically, it's a nice boost for PCs, especially mundanes.

[Fizban]

Sorcery and Steam (of the Legends and Lairs series by Fantasy Flight Games), is the only book I've ever seen with firearms rules that aren't complete garbage. DMG, crap. Pathfinder, crap. Warcraft, crap. They have a page or two on the history and research they did to show some actual thought, and I did my own wiki hopping research to compare. They got like one thing wrong in that by focusing on match/flint/percussion they missed breach-loading, which is where the real speed increase comes from (also there were paper cartridges for a loong time). Despite this the reload speeds are just fine since they probably drew from popular numbers based on breach loading weapons, and the only stuff that feels too weirdly fast is percussion caps with maximum reload stacking to free actions.

The mechanics and stats are the best. Damage values that work alongside bows, none of this "lol guns are touch attacks" crap, every firing type represented at every size as well as double barreled options, a holdout gun, and a crude revolver. There's some stuff to ignore like the blunderbuss and "steam bow" that doesn't have full rules, but those are the gamey add-ons and not the main guns. Worst part is that the Munitions skill, full reloading mechanics, weapon descriptions, stats, and the ammo/power prices are all in separate places (as if you're using the whole book rather than just the guns), but you can just write them down for reference.

Bottom line, if you ever want to have guns in your game, get this book. The steam armor and steam vehicles aren't too bad either, though the vehicles use their own format that won't mesh with the AaEG standard they're still pretty dang nice with a Drive skill that lets you make serious combat driving a thing if you want it.

[AtlasSniperman]

+1 for Sorcery and Steam.
But I have to shout out for the Encyclopedia Arcane collection(Mongoose Publishing). It's generally a free access thing in my campaigns as I absolutely love most of it.

[Âmesang]

So a long, long time ago I downloaded an .rtf of the "Unlawful Guide to Carnal Knowledge." With that said, I always did like this particular option for determining the stats of one's offspring:

This system will give you the attributes that the baby will have once he reaches adulthood (which is usually a few years after puberty). Of course, as a child the baby will show potential or problem areas if stats are high or low; especially in areas of Intelligence and Wisdom.
To figure out the ability scores, the first step is to average each ability score of the parents which will give you the "genetic" bases. To make the baby a bit different from its parents, a random factor is added to the process. First, add 1d4 to each genetic base and then subtract 1d4 to that number. This means that each of the baby's stats can be up to 3 above or 3 below its parents' average. If the result isn't an integer, there is a 50% chance to round up and a 50% to round down.

Example:
A baby is to be born, but what will his Strength be? His father's Strength is 17 and his mother's Strength is 14. This averages to 15.5 which becomes the genetic base. Before figuring in the random factor, we know that the baby's Strength will fall between 12.5 - 18.5. On the first 1d4, a 3 is rolled and added to the genetic factor giving us a 18.5. On the second 1d4, a 2 is rolled and subtracted from the 18.5 giving us a Strength 16.5. Well decimals are unacceptable so on the percentile roll, a 23% is rolled causing the Strength to be rounded down to 16. The baby's Strength will be 16 when it reaches adulthood. The same process is followed for the remaining attributes.
Note that the baby's attributes must still obey its race's minimum/maximum limits. For example, no human can be born with more than 18 or less than 3 in any attribute.
They've some additional rules for randomizing offspring, but that was the one that stuck out in my mind the most.

[Malimar]

Tome of Horrors has a ton of old-school D&D monsters. Everything but the duckbunny.

And I find myself consulting the Book of Erotic Fantasy's prostitute prices way more often than most people would be comfortable with.

[D.M.Hentchel]

+1 to Book of Erotic Fantasy. Though NSFW, with a mature group it can be quite a lot of fun.

I also love some of Mongoose Publishing books. Namely Quintessential Kobold/Fighter II/Bard had some interesting mechanics and ideas in them. Spellsongs and Special Techniques struck me most. I like Mongooses flavorful writing and design notes at the end of each book.

In general I regard 3rd party material as quality homebrew, all of which needs to be reviewed before adding, but if you want to pad specific areas or are just looking for inspiration they have some gems.

[digiman619]

+1 to Book of Erotic Fantasy. Though NSFW, with a mature group it can be quite a lot of fun.

While I generally don't go there in my games, I rather prefer Book of Unlawful Carnal Knowledge as far as that goes. The rules for sex were very interesting.

[Segev]

Speaking of Mongoose's Quintessential series, Q. Sorcerer had a really cool concept in it. I forget what they called them, but essentially, you could give up Sorc. spells known for magical traits. They made you more supernatural, spooky, or otherwise thematic. I thought it a neat idea.

[legomaster00156]

While I generally recommend Spheres of Power by Drop Dead Studios, that might be a bit more extensive than what you had in mind. In that case, I suggest Cerulean Seas: Underwater Campaign Guide by Alluria Publishing if you ever want to do an underwater campaign.
It's funny, I would have recommended the exact same setting for underwater campaigns. Even without the setting itself, the rules and races are fantastic.

[Âmesang]

Speaking of Mongoose's Quintessential series, Q. Sorcerer had a really cool concept in it. I forget what they called them, but essentially, you could give up Sorc. spells known for magical traits. They made you more supernatural, spooky, or otherwise thematic. I thought it a neat idea.
DRAGON #336 had a similar, albeit minor concept; a sorcerer can swap out two 0-level spells known for a "poltergeist." Fanfare is fabulous, Crawling Coin is conniving, and… well, the other ones aren't anything to write home about. Why, one of them lets you leave a bruise on people.

A bruise!