Need help to beat Minmaxer in a duel PLS HELP!!!

[Renevad]

Ok so my friend, lets call him "Min" for the duration, is addicted to minmaxing the characters he uses and lord the superiority of said characters over us in game, whether it be not helping in a fight because he finds it funny to watch us struggle or just general a-holeness. so i recently challenged him to a duel with my fighter based wizard, his character has an extremely high ac and from what i hear his saves arent that bad either, now mind you all of his ac is generated without armor through various feats and a high dex, right now we're level 9, and i have taken 5 wiz levels 2 fighter lvls and 2 runesmith lvls, any advice on how to beat him?

[ComaVision]

You haven't told us what "Min's" character is at all.

[LordOfCain]

Ok so my friend, lets call him "Min" for the duration, is addicted to minmaxing the characters he uses and lord the superiority of said characters over us in game, whether it be not helping in a fight because he finds it funny to watch us struggle or just general a-holeness. so i recently challenged him to a duel with my fighter based wizard, his character has an extremely high ac and from what i hear his saves arent that bad either, now mind you all of his ac is generated without armor through various feats and a high dex, right now we're level 9, and i have taken 5 wiz levels 2 fighter lvls and 2 runesmith lvls, any advice on how to beat him?

What sourcebooks are allowed? My first comment is to maintain a fullcaster and go at his weak points, probably will saves? I would drop the fighter levels.

[Tvtyrant]

Ok so my friend, lets call him "Min" for the duration, is addicted to minmaxing the characters he uses and lord the superiority of said characters over us in game, whether it be not helping in a fight because he finds it funny to watch us struggle or just general a-holeness. so i recently challenged him to a duel with my fighter based wizard, his character has an extremely high ac and from what i hear his saves arent that bad either, now mind you all of his ac is generated without armor through various feats and a high dex, right now we're level 9, and i have taken 5 wiz levels 2 fighter lvls and 2 runesmith lvls, any advice on how to beat him?

Drop the fighter and prestige class, take sudden maximize and cast Lahm's Finger Darts. I doubt Min's character can take 12 dexterity damage without saves, and you will be instantly victorious and in need of a scroll of regenerate.

Twin maximized enervates will drop him to level 1, and then you can go push a knife into him.

Finally you can talk up how no one who can't see invisible creatures can possibly defeat you, and walk in wearing a cape covered in explosive runes that were cast with the Invisible Spell metamagic so he dies an instant and explosive death. If he doesn't take the hint about See Invisibilitu then just summon invisible hippogriffs until they claw him to death.

[Eldariel]

So...what tools do we have available? "Beating X" is pretty difficult if there are no resources. Can the classes change? What spells do you know? Can you acquire magic items, change feats or such? What are your current ones? Can't win a fight without knowing your own ability.

[CGNefarious]

The night before the duel, kill him in his sleep. If he complains that it was unfair, look at him in surprise and state that you thought a character as awesome and superior as his would be prepared for anything. Really, you're just disappointed that the fight didn't last long at all. And to think of all the time you put into preparing for it. What a shame.

Aside from that, as others have said, we need more information.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, at least Runesmith is full casting, so you have 4th-level spells to work with. As a practical approach, try fly + bull's strength + polymorph (seven-headed hydra) + invisibility (to attack flat-footed AC) + wraithstrike (to attack touch AC), and then kill Min in one full attack, which should do about 7d10+42 damage if all attacks hit, for an average of 70,5. If you have it, you can use Power Attack with your 5-6 base attack bonus, for an extra 35-42 damage. If you have Practiced Spellcaster, or another way to hit higher caster levels on polymorph, you can up that damage by adding more heads, possibly for a full attack of 10d10+130 (average 185), in the best-case scenario (CL 10, fractional base attack, all hits).


Edit: note that you should start with invisibility, to hide the fact that you're turning into a crazy flying hydra. It can be helpful to take some distance before buffing up, especially vertically. Remember that you can charge down at double speed - for a regular fly spell, that's 240 feet plus the 15-foot reach of a hydra's bite attacks.

[prufock]

So far all you've told us about his build is that he has high saves and AC. You have wizard levels, so you don't need to worry about saves or AC, just use spells that don't have an attack roll and don't allow a save.

Solid Fog will keep him away from you while you can pelt him with damaging spells from a distance. Fly can give you a similar edge.

Also, what are the parameters for winning? Fear escalation can cause him to run away, does that count as a win?

[TheIronGolem]

Ok so my friend, lets call him "Min" for the duration, is addicted to minmaxing the characters he uses and lord the superiority of said characters over us in game, whether it be not helping in a fight because he finds it funny to watch us struggle or just general a-holeness. so i recently challenged him to a duel
You have an out-of-character problem, and you will not fix it by having your pretend magic man beat up his pretend magic man.

[MisterKaws]

You have an out-of-character problem, and you will not fix it by having your pretend magic man beat up his pretend magic man.

Damn right.

Talk to him like grown-ups, and if that doesn't solve the issue, talk to the DM to mediate.

If you really want to PvP, though, just call Pazuzu.

[Calthropstu]

Say "ok, I challenge you to make the best character you can within 3.5 rules as written, and I will do the same. Unlimited prep time, no splat books disallowed."

Then bring pun-pun.

[Mehangel]

Say "ok, I challenge you to make the best character you can within 3.5 rules as written, and I will do the same. Unlimited prep time, no splat books disallowed."

Then bring pun-pun.

Doesn't pun-pun explicitly require splatbooks to create him?

[Calthropstu]

Doesn't pun-pun explicitly require splatbooks to create him?

No splat books disallowed means all splat books are allowed.

[Mehangel]

No splat books disallowed means all splat books are allowed.

*facepalm* Ah the elusive double negative. Anyways, pun-pun (and many other TO character builds) are only as powerful as the player who uses it. From what I have heard about Min, he might have a sufficiently extensive amount of system mastery that someone attempting to use pun-pun vs Min might not be that much of a threat, as Min might possibly use an similar TO character build and use it more effectively.

[EldritchWeaver]

You have an out-of-character problem, and you will not fix it by having your pretend magic man beat up his pretend magic man.


Damn right.

Talk to him like grown-ups, and if that doesn't solve the issue, talk to the DM to mediate.

Mediate also includes the option to remove the player from the group. There is no law forcing you to have suffer jerks in your game.

[KillianHawkeye]

Finally you can talk up how no one who can't see invisible creatures can possibly defeat you, and walk in wearing a cape covered in explosive runes that were cast with the Invisible Spell metamagic so he dies an instant and explosive death.

Anyone who tried this strategy would also die and instant and explosive death.... :smallconfused:

[Calthropstu]

Anyone who tried this strategy would also die and instant and explosive death.... :smallconfused:

Not someone polymorphed into a fire elemental.

[Inevitability]

Not someone polymorphed into a fire elemental.

Fire elementals aren't immune to force damage. You'd have to cast Selective Forceward on yourself if you want immunity, or turn into a force dragon somehow.

[Calthropstu]

Fire elementals aren't immune to force damage. You'd have to cast Selective Forceward on yourself if you want immunity, or turn into a force dragon somehow.

My bad, I thought it was fire damage.

Hardness in pathfinder would reduce it, but not in 3.5.
Force dragon then.

[JNAProductions]

Seconding an OOC solution. Him being more optimized than everyone else? Not a problem. Him being a massive asshat about it? Problem. And winning a fight won't solve it.

[Segev]

If you must solve this with clever IC chicanery, I suggest you build your PC to do the same thing(s) his does. When he doesn't help to laugh at you...do what he would do. Make him redundant.

Make sure your build is able to do literally everything his does, even if it means copying his mechanics exactly. Then play differently than he does: be helpful and kind to the party. Be a team player.


But seriously, the problem here is that Min isn't acting like a friend. Min is acting like a jerk.

[daremetoidareyo]

planar binding. Get somewhere unobserved and blow all your wealth sending various devils, demons, slaad, and celestials at him.

[Darrin]

Make yourself a half dozen scrolls of ice storm. Cast Evard's black tentacles, then read one scroll a round until he's the consistency of tapioca pudding. If he gets out of that, finish him off with fly + greater invisibility + magic missile.

[dascarletm]

Party: By the gods! This monster is kicking our butts!
Min: Ha ha ha puny fools I could handle this easily, I think I'll just watch.
Party goes on to defeat the monster... barely.
Min: Ha ha ha that was a hilarious display of foolhardiness.
Party Member A: Looks like there was 10,000gp of treasure.
Min: Oh so what's my cut?
Party Member A: About that... we need to talk. It seems like we're moving in separate ways... It's not you it's us. I think you'll be happier in a different group.
Min: Wait but...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What I see is that he's getting in plenty of Min, but not much Max: How is he getting XP if he's not doing anything?

[Snowbluff]

You have an out-of-character problem, and you will not fix it by having your pretend magic man beat up his pretend magic man.

I agree. You won't prove anything with our help. If he knows you asked for a solution it wouldn't be you winning. You'll be back at square one, which is "you need to talk OoC."

Also, invisibility and finger darts won't work on an optI mixer, as they'll bring special senses and ways to reduce ability damage.

[denthor]

Dex poison or strength poison.

Enough dexterity loss he is not moving in an way shape or form armor class goes down you may even get two attacks in a single round

If you go for wisdom drains he can not use most healing spells.

Intelligence drains means he loses feats.

Poison is great

[Name1]

Wait, did he say that or is that just your perception of him? As someone who plays a Wizard in a party with a barbarian, I know that it can look weird when you CAN be god, but choose not to 'cause it breaks the game. Have you talked to him about it OoC already? If not, I think you should.

[ace rooster]

As I read it, the problem is the addiction to minmaxing*, making playing the characters he has built an unsatisfactory situation. Unfortunately you cannot cure minmax addiction by indulging it, or directly challenging it. The only possible outcomes of that are that he wins, and enjoys it, or that he loses, and tries harder. Neither is good for enjoyment.

* I've played some pretty hi op games, but there is a difference between enjoying hi op and being unable to play low op. My general rule is: build for fun, play to win.


Anyway, combat expertise, improved feint, insightful feint (SC), voice of the dragon (Draconomic) (or some other enhancement bonus) lets you boost your touch AC a fair chunk while denying dex to AC for your opponent (which includes all dodge bonuses) as a swift action. Needs to be a melee touch attack, but throw down some mist and rely on dragonsight (drac again) to find them. Eversmoking bottle is great for it, as it covers a huge area and once unstoppered requires no more actions. You could even just hit them with area attacks while they cannot detect you. Fireballs are one, but the SC has a electric version, and also a SR no acid one. Don't forget that dispels can be area too, though it is probably worth risking the total concealment to get a targeted one. Down side is that if they are particularly high op them might already have mindsight or touchsight, so don't rely on fog too heavily. If it becomes clear that they do not have non visual vision, tiny hut is a great spell to know about. It is meant as a shelter, but is far more useful as a emplacement where you can fire out but your enemy cannot see in. They can still hit you with area attacks. Some ideas?

[daremetoidareyo]

As I read it, the problem is the addiction to minmaxing*, making playing the characters he has built an unsatisfactory situation. Unfortunately you cannot cure minmax addiction by indulging it, or directly challenging it. The only possible outcomes of that are that he wins, and enjoys it, or that he loses, and tries harder. Neither is good for enjoyment.


Unless you have routine rules abuse contests, in which case, you've unlocked a whole new level.

Also, Rooster brings up a good point. Don't let him control the terrain, change the game on him. Scrap your dude and make a bard diplomancer. Only a fool dumps charisma.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Party: By the gods! This monster is kicking our butts!
Min: Ha ha ha puny fools I could handle this easily, I think I'll just watch.
Party goes on to defeat the monster... barely.
Min: Ha ha ha that was a hilarious display of foolhardiness.
Party Member A: Looks like there was 10,000gp of treasure.
Min: Oh so what's my cut?
Party Member A: About that... we need to talk. It seems like we're moving in separate ways... It's not you it's us. I think you'll be happier in a different group.
Min: Wait but...

Seconding this. You've challenged him to a duel, announce at the time of the duel that the terms of the duel is...

Getting the party's approval as a team player. So, I think you've pretty much got a lock on this one. Then ditch his character, if he keeps being an ass. Adventuring parties travel together, because they can trust one another, this guy seems like he's... What's a nice way of saying 'that friend nobody likes'?

If the player complains, explain calmly and plainly that his character just isn't liked by the rest of the party, because of what he says and does to people who should, at the very least, be on friendly terms with one another. Either the character changes his ways, and starts being a team player, or the offending player needs to roll up a new character.

When you're facing death every other day, life is literally too short to be hanging out with jackasses who can't pull their weight.

[Renevad]

Hey sry wanted to apologize for the people who said they had to little info about Min's character, all i know is that he's taken alot of fighter lvls and prestige into something like a spell sword, tbh the dm thought it would be more fun if we didnt know much about the others build

[Renevad]

Also any officially published material is fine, everything from book of vile deeds to complete arcane

[LordOfCain]

Also any officially published material is fine, everything from book of vile deeds to complete arcane

So just play a Illumian Cancer Mage with NI Str and bonus spells based off of Str.

[TheIronGolem]

Hey sry wanted to apologize for the people who said they had to little info about Min's character, all i know is that he's taken alot of fighter lvls and prestige into something like a spell sword, tbh the dm thought it would be more fun if we didnt know much about the others build

Fighter and Spellsword? That's honestly really low on the optimization scale. Are there a lot of house rules in play, or unusually high amounts of powerful treasure in the party's hands? We'd need to get a sense of your table's overall power level before we could give any useful advice.

But I will reiterate that if you really have a problem with a fellow player, an in-character duel will not resolve that problem.

[Segev]

He's a min/maxer playing a fighter-type.

Well, there are some impressive meleeist builds, and it sounds like he's going to at least gish it up a little, so we can't dismiss it out of hand. However... play as much of a full caster as you can. Get spells that render you untouchable at range and let you stay at range. Flight, dimension door, benign transposition (to trade places with your familiar), wind wall (to stop arrows), and energy immunities (in case he's got ranged energy spells). Shield, to stop magic missiles.

Be ready to dispel any magic he has (particularly that lets him fly) and to charm or dominate his mount (if he has one); keep him grounded. I'm also a fan of rock to mud followed by mud to rock as a combination to imprison ground-bound beings, though it's not a guaranteed win on its own.

Your goal is to be untouchable and to keep him unable to do anything, and then have a few things you can do to him while he can't fight back.

[Renevad]

yeah i was planning on doing whatever i can to keep him at a distance so he cant really do anything, so i thought about using fog and a mirror of opposition, since the rules surrounding its targeting isnt specific i thought it may be able to detect their position without sight, like a heatseeker ya know, and for those who suggested scrapping the character, well if i was willing to do that ide just wait for the next game, i get attached to my characters.

[Renevad]

And this isnt like im trying to cure him of it, its fun to see someone build a powerful character, this is my first game playing with him, im doing this mainly at the behest of my dm and fellow player, so its not like this fight is something that is serious or anything, if it were a serious issue i would take it OoC, i just thought it would be fun to challenge him and to wipe the smug look of his face, like climbing everest cuz its hard to do. I just thought that since i didnt have much expierience in fighting a pc ide ask yal for help, ya know gleam some sagely wisdom.

[Renevad]

Fighter and Spellsword? That's honestly really low on the optimization scale. Are there a lot of house rules in play, or unusually high amounts of powerful treasure in the party's hands? We'd need to get a sense of your table's overall power level before we could give any useful advice.

But I will reiterate that if you really have a problem with a fellow player, an in-character duel will not resolve that problem.

power level? meh i dont know terminology that well, he has a mainly melee based character and mention wanting to grab a spell casting class, his high ac doesnt come from armor and he keeps alot of it when it comes to touch and flat foot, though i dont know why, sry for not giving alot of information, im more or less fighting in the dark as well

[Renevad]

Well ive gotten what i needed thank you guys, ile try my best with the advice yal gave wish me luck

[Segev]

Well ive gotten what i needed thank you guys, ile try my best with the advice yal gave wish me luck

Good luck! When you've got a rough draft of your build, feel free to bring it back here and I'm sure you'll get more advice - both on room for improvement, and on tactics to use its abilities to their best!