foresight: how do you run it as DM?

[Hiro Quester]

My Druid9/Monk1/Lion of Talisid7 can now cast 9th level spells. Foresight looks good, but how does a DM implement this? How does a player help him do so?

My character was a summoner in the early levels, a face-beating wildshaping belle druid in the middle levels, and now is focussing on using magic more and melee less.

To encourage this, my DM just finished offering me a deal --one that came from my God, Obad-Hai himself, so I could hardly refuse-- that I get an extra level of Druid abilities (to recover the level lost when I took one level of Monk), but my wildshape becomes limited to 2/day for 10 minutes each.

So now I'm basically a 17 level druid with a free Monk1 abilities, instead of a 16 level Druid with one monk level. Yay! 9th level spells. But the DM, trying to keep things balanced, has banned me from using Shapechange.

Looking at the list of 9th level spells (that aren't shape change), they seem ... well.. not as awesome as I was expecting. (The only other 9th-level spell wielding character I have played was a Bard/SC, who relied on Time Stop and Shapechange.) We are playing with Core plus PHII, DMG II, and Stormwrack (other spells approved on a case by case basis).

So Foresight, then. I guess. (Other suggestions for awesome 9th level Druid spells would be welcome; after reading the advice in Eggynack's guide to Druiding (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aEDk5GHucfhp8n_rxghsJ9mMlOZvQ1YPFdB0ZIPq4Gc/edit#heading=h.kfs0m2p12jv9) foresight seems the best idea for our current predicament.)

My Druid does do a lot of self-buffing, so Foresight fits his MO. Never being surprised and the insight bonus to AC and Reflex is good and all (going first is also something I aim for).

I'd like to talk to our DM about how best to implement this part: "the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself"

It would be great to know to ready an action to counterspell, or make a countercasting attack, or to order my tiger Animal Companion to grapple the guy who is about to cast a spell at me.

Do I have to just ask the DM "Does my spidey sense give me any hints about what might be about to happen?" before I decide how to act each turn? But this could get kind of annoying to the DM.

Druids don't get a lot of immediate action spells, unfortunately.

Have DMs found a better way to run Foresight than me just pestering him for warnings like that?

[Deophaun]

You seem to be misunderstanding the spell. The foresight you get is represented by never being surprised or flat-footed and getting your bonus to Reflex and AC. If you cast it on someone else, you can also have just enough lead time to alert them to the danger so they aren't surprised or flat-footed. There's zero need to pester the DM.

DM: "An arrow shoots out of the darkness aimed at Tog."
Druid: "I tell Tog to look out for arrows."
DM: "And Tog is no longer flat-footed."

Done.

[Hiro Quester]

You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself and gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

The warnings are in addition to the bonus to AC and reflex saves and not being surprised or flat footed.

If I can warn Tog to duck behind cover, I should also know to duck myself (or cast wind wall) if that arrow was about to be fired at me.

Or if Enemy X was about to cast a targeted dispel magic at me, the spell should warn me during my turn, so that I could ready to counterspell against that dispelling attempt.

Also --now I think about the mechanics here-- if our party is surprised, but I'm not, how does a DM implement that? Do I also get to act in the surprise round? Or do I get to shout a warning so that none of our party is surprised?

[Deophaun]

The warnings are in addition to the bonus to AC and reflex saves and not being surprised or flat footed.
Yes and no. You get the warning. Therefore, you get the AC and Reflex save bonus. "I went to the bank and deposited the check." Because I went to the bank, I could deposit the check. The two events are not unrelated. "And" often represents a causative relationship in English.

If I can warn Tog to duck behind cover, I should also know to duck myself (or cast wind wall) if that arrow was about to be fired at me.
There is nothing that says you should be able to cast wind wall. Simply doesn't exist in the spell description. The only action the warning actually is stated as allowing you to take is to warn someone else.

Or if Enemy X was about to cast a targeted dispel magic at me, the spell should warn me during my turn
But it doesn't. Your normative opinion on the matter is irrelevant.

Also --now I think about the mechanics here-- if our party is surprised, but I'm not, how does a DM implement that? Do I also get to act in the surprise round? Or do I get to shout a warning so that none of our party is surprised?
You are never surprised, which means you get to act in the surprise round. Roll initiative. You also aren't flat-footed even if you roll bad and go last. You only get to shout the warning and make someone else not surprised if you have cast the spell on someone else.

[Hiro Quester]

"And" often represents a causative relationship in English.

It can. But it's not at all as clear as you are making out that it is doing so here. An additive reading of "and" here seems quite reasonable. And given that the text also uses "in addition, the spell does X and Y", it seems unlikely to mean it as you suggest.


The only action the warning actually is stated as allowing you to take is to warn someone else.

But it doesn't. Your normative opinion on the matter is irrelevant.

It doesn't seem just my normative opinion. It's right there in the text of the spell: "the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself"

This indicates that I can --at least sometimes-- take actions to protect myself.

So it seems a fair interpretation that sometimes I would get foreknowledge of an enemy's intended attack on me during my turn, so that I could ready an action to attempt to avoid or foil that attack.

Am I alone in expecting it would work this way? Or do you all agree with Deophan that I'm expecting too much of this 9th level spell?

If I'm not, how have other DMs interpreted this? (My DM does not seem to have had to deal with this spell before, so I'm trying to suggest to a way to implement it with as few headaches for him as possible).

[Deophaun]

And given that the text also uses "in addition, the spell does X and Y", it seems unlikely to mean it as you suggest.
I don't know why you highlighted "in addition," because the "in addition" is a clause completely seperate from "gives you warning and an insight bonus to AC and Reflex."

It doesn't seem just my normative opinion. It's right there in the text of the spell: "the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself"

This indicates that I can --at least sometimes-- take actions to protect myself.
And what is the nature of these "actions?"

duck, jump right, close your eyes, and so on
Do you see "counterspell" in there? "Ready?" No? Nothing like that? So, why do you think those are valid responses?

So it seems a fair interpretation that sometimes I would get foreknowledge of an enemy's intended attack on me during my turn
No. No it doesn't. Not at all. "I ready an action to duck" does... what?

It's describing reflexes. How are you getting "must tell me on my turn what the enemy is going to do" from that?

EDIT: IT JUST STRUCK ME...

You're going off the SRD--where they strip off all of the explanatory, clarifying language--and not the PHB, aren't you?

[InvisibleBison]

I think I agree with Deophaun. "The spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself" reads more like a fluff description of where the bonus to AC and Reflex saves comes from than an additional ability, especially with the bit immediately following it that the PHB has but the SRD leaves out.

[Hiro Quester]

I was looking at the SRD, because my PH was on the other side of the house.

But now I look at my PH, I'm reminded that it also gives as examples that it would warn you if a rogue was about to sneak attack you, or if you were about to be the target of a spell or ranged attack.

The actions of "duck, jump right, close your eyes and so on" are given as examples of responses you could make to that warning.

And none of these are free actions. None can be performed other than on your turn. (Closing your eyes, perhaps, but I don't think many DMs would allow it as a free action.)

So the fuller PH version reinforces my impression than on your turn the spell tells you what's about to happen so that you can useyour turn to jump to the right, or turn and swing your sword at the rogue about to try to sneak attack you, or dimension door out of the path of the lightning bolt that was about to be cast at you.

[eggynack]

I think the idea is that those particular actions are reflexive ones. It's not like the in-game representation of dodging a fireball typically involves just standing there completely still. You're not jumping into an adjacent square, or falling prone, which are actual actions that take real time. You're just jumping to another spot in your square, or crouching a bit, which are off-turn implicit actions. Closing your eyes is a bit more interesting though, because neither a reflex save nor AC serves as the mechanical center to avoiding a gaze attack through averting the attacker's sight, and I'm not sure what that's supposed to protect you from, reflex-wise as a result. But it's still a kinda reflexive action, even if other parts of the game don't quite treat it that way, and so it fits the general nature of the interpretation.

[Deophaun]

But now I look at my PH, I'm reminded that it also gives as examples that it would warn you if a rogue was about to sneak attack you, or if you were about to be the target of a spell or ranged attack.
Yes. And how much advanced warning do you get? Tell me. Where does it give you a time frame? If are warned a thousandth of a second beforehand, are you not still warned? How much can you do in a thousandth of a second?

The actions of "duck, jump right, close your eyes and so on" are given as examples of responses you could make to that warning.

And none of these are free actions. None can be performed other than on your turn.
This are things you are assumed to be doing the whole time. Do you think that combat is you stand perfectly still while it's the other person's turn? You stand there and just wait to be whacked, and then the other person just stands there and waits to be whacked? No:

When you play out a combat scene or some other activity for which time is measured in rounds, it can be important to remember that all the PCs’ and NPCs’ actions are occurring simultaneously. For instance, in one 6-second round, Mialee might be trying to cast a spell at the same time that Lidda is moving in to make a sneak attack. However, when everyone at the table plays out a combat round, each individual acts in turn according to the initiative count for his character. Obviously, this is necessary, because if every individual took his turn at the same time, mass confusion would result.
And what the heck is the "duck" action, anyway? Where is that?

And how far to the right are you jumping? You seem to be assuming you can only jump in 5' increments. You can jump as much as you want, at any time, as long as you stay in your square. That's what your Dex modifier to AC is representing: you moving out of the way of an attack, by shifting, by dodging, be weaving, by jumping. But you are just stuck in your little 5' square while doing so.

EDIT: And keep in mind, there is no facing. So what is this "right" that you are jumping to? We must be talking plain English, then, not the Jump action.

That's your problem: you have assumed a lot. There is nothing in the spell that requires those assumptions to be true.

So the fuller PH version reinforces my impression than on your turn the spell tells you what's about to happen so that you can useyour turn to jump to the right, or turn and swing your sword at the rogue about to try to sneak attack you, or dimension door out of the path of the lightning bolt that was about to be cast at you.
One of these things is not like the others. One of these things does not belong.

You asked a question before: is it reasonable? And you have acknowledged that your interpretation will cause headaches for your DM. So, I will ask you that question: is it reasonable for you to cause headaches for your DM?

[Sliver]

The problem with foresight giving you information enough in advance that you can choose your actions is quite big. If not for that, I would say it's reasonable for a 9th level spell. But it exists...

Say that a caster is going to cast a targeted dispel at you, and foresight tells you that, or at least that readying a counterspell is the best way to defend yourself. Now the caster sees you ready an action, and instead of dispelling you, readies to counterspell himself, since he doesn't know exactly what you are planning to do with your own spell. Would you consider wasting your actions in order to waste the actions of one other enemy to be the best course of defense? I don't know.

But let's say that you are ambushed, and the enemies are about to fire arrows at you. Because of Foresight, you cast wind wall. Due to the nature of D&D not really having simultaneous attacks, you just blocked one arrow. The rest do something else instead, like cast spells or draw a different weapon, or whatever. You just wasted your action to protect yourself from one arrow.

Your knowledge of the future affected your actions, which in turn affected the future, leading to a different result than what you knew.

Should Foresight update the information it gave you in response to how you would act in response to knowing what the enemy would do? At which point does that end?

Or perhaps the DM has to play the way that he informed you through Foresight, ignoring the information that the enemy gains just because he promised you that the enemy would act in a certain way?

Basically, your interpretation of Foresight seems to force the DM to not only decide everything the enemies would do every turn, but to also go through with that even if the situation changed between your turns.

[FearlessGnome]

In addition to the scenarios Sliver outlined, consider one more - Evil McLich is about to jump the party and start raining down area attacks. The party Wizard has Foresight up and so knows that the ambush is going to happen, and what the Lich is planning to start off with. Because of Foresight W gets to act in the surprise round, no doubt about it. But by your interpretation, W would be able to prepare some kind of action to counter the Lich's attack - or even choose to eat whatever the Lich is dishing out in order to get in an attack of his own. After all, he gets a standard action and advice as to how he could defend himself, not a standard action that absolutely can only be spent to prepare a counterspell or whatever. And it's conceivable one attack by the wizard could neutralize the Lich and so successfully defend against whatever the Lich was planning to do.

Except, what if the Lich also has Foresight? You want to be able to know what the Lich has planned and also want to be allowed a standard action before the Lich gets to do that. The Lich, by the same logic, gets a standard action before you can preempt him. Except Foresight isn't used up when it warns you, so really you should get another standard action before the Lich's standard action, and so on back to the time of casting. One interpretation (the most common one), says you don't get any more actions (except for acting in any surprise rounds), one (yours) seems to say you can act before the surprise round, and that if both sides have Foresight, both sides get to act before the other one...

[Hiro Quester]

Wow, Deophaun... I know your title says "Troll in the Playground" but chill a little. There's no need to be quite so antagonistic about it. I'm trying to have s discussion,, not a confrontation.

I didn't assume that other players would be committed to the actions they intended. They might do something different, if they see I prepared. But I thought that the foreknowledge would enable me to occasionally thwart the enemy's plans a bit.

But if this is how everyone interprets it, --that the foreknowledge just gives you + 2 to AC and reflex by dodging and weaving in your square, but not giving enough to warning to perform or ready an action-- then it doesn't seem all that worthy of a 9th level slot.

I might as well just prepare something else. Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding.

I mean, if all it grants is not being surprised and a minor +2 to AC and reflex saves.... The latter two are covered by level 2 spells.

And I already have a decent amount of going-first-ness thanks to a few initiative boosts. Plus I'm never flat footed thanks to the Primal Hunter snd Primal instincts spells granting uncanny dodge. And my reflex save isn't too shabby. And my AC is usually better than that of our party tank.

Not being surprised is nice. But I don't think it's 9th level spell nice.

[eggynack]

Not being surprised is a pretty great spell effect. At late levels, where rocket tag becomes more and more common, taking the first rocket to the face can be really problematic. It's one of those things you really want to defend against. This is especially true for druids, because, as you note, druid 9th's are mostly not great. Also, extra initiative and such doesn't obviate this effect. It compounds it. You can't be surprised, and initiative means you're likely to go first in the opening round, and the result is that you're liable to be the one with the first rocket, and thus you can become the problematic one. Add dire tortoise and you're getting that surprise round your foes lost, the whole setup giving you what is tantamount to two rounds of enemy destruction. Add a belt of battle, and that can be extended out to three rounds. There's a pair of words that describe getting three successive rounds of actions over your opponents, and those words are time stop. It's not an insanely consistent time stop, but that gives an indication of the scale of effect here.

[Hiro Quester]

I get that, Eggynack. But my DM nerfed my wildshape to 2/day for 10 min each (in exchange for+1 Druid level). So I can't just hang out being a dire tortoise, in case we are surprised.

But it's not really fair to say that this spell is similar in power to a time stop. It's kind of similar IF you also add in dire tortoise and a belt of battle. But much of the abilities here don't come from this spell.

(I really should get a belt of battle though. I have avoided one because I have usually been in wildshapes. But that will no longer be the case.)

It does have potential to disable a surprise from forcing me to go second. But without dire tortoise, it doesn't get you the ability to act in the surprise round or thwart the enemy's attempt at surprising your party.

And the belt of battle can get an extra round anytime. That would be an especially good time to use it, but it's dire tortoise that enables the surprise round action to use the belt, right? Not Foresight. Foresight just prevents the enemies from surprising me.


So back to the main question (sans dire tortoise and belt of battle): so foresight only enables me to not be surprised or flat footed (and buffs AC and Dex). How does that work in practice?

Scenario: A party of enemies lies in wait for us. They intend to surprise ambush us.

Does foresight enable me to just avoid that attack (they only attack the others, because they see my cat-like state of readiness, and go for easier flat-footed targets)?

Can I warn the rest of my party about the enemies, denying their whole surprise?

Or am I just not flat-footed and so when they attack, I get to keep my Dex bonus to AC (uncanny dodge already grants that)?

[Bronk]

Have DMs found a better way to run Foresight than me just pestering him for warnings like that?

I agree with your original reading of the spell... The spell says the caster has enough time to take actions as long as they do it right away. Trying to restrict the wording of the spell in odd ways or by ignoring large parts of the spell or declaring parts of the spell 'fluff' is a house rule, which is okay for them, but only helpful to you if your DM use the same house rule. I suggest asking your DM how they will be running it.



The way I run it, if someone has foresight up and is about to set off a trap, walk into an ambush, or what have you, I let them know.

"That spot you're about to step on will set off a trap." They don't step there.

"Someone's going to shoot at you when you walk around that corner." They stop, and don't get shot at.

That sort of thing.

If I forget that someone has foresight up, and I start describing some sort of action, the player would just say, "Did my Forsight catch that?", and the description will instead be the 'warning'. I don't think that takes away from the game at all. After all, it's a ninth level spell that only lasts 10 minutes per level.

[Segev]

The intent, from how it's written, is clear to me: "you have an idea of how best to defend yourself" is the fluff explanation for the bonus to AC and the like.

Honestly, if you're really looking for "an idea of what action" to take, immediate-action spells already handle this for you.

Foresight doesn't give you a warning a round ahead of time; you don't know the enemy wizard is about to polymorph you when it's your turn; you know just a moment before he does that he's going to. You'd need an immediate action to react to it anyway, and the rules for immediate actions already let you use them to interrupt once you know what's going to be done.

Foresight won't help in that case; greater celerity, however, will!

[Deophaun]

Wow, Deophaun... I know your title says "Troll in the Playground" but chill a little. There's no need to be quite so antagonistic about it. I'm trying to have s discussion,, not a confrontation.
Calling someone who has stayed on the topic of discussion and hasn't insulted you--directly or implicitly--a troll is not a way to avoid confrontation.

I get that, Eggynack. But my DM nerfed my wildshape to 2/day for 10 min each (in exchange for+1 Druid level). So I can't just hang out being a dire tortoise, in case we are surprised.
Yup. Nerfs do tend to nerf. 3.5 is all about synergies, so when one ability gets the nerf bat to the groin, others also suffer.

Your DM's negotiating skills make Asmodeus shiver. I applaud him.

[Chen]

The intent, from how it's written, is clear to me: "you have an idea of how best to defend yourself" is the fluff explanation for the bonus to AC and the like.

Honestly, if you're really looking for "an idea of what action" to take, immediate-action spells already handle this for you.

Foresight doesn't give you a warning a round ahead of time; you don't know the enemy wizard is about to polymorph you when it's your turn; you know just a moment before he does that he's going to. You'd need an immediate action to react to it anyway, and the rules for immediate actions already let you use them to interrupt once you know what's going to be done.

Foresight won't help in that case; greater celerity, however, will!

The part where you cast it on someone else though says you have time for yelling a warning OR yanking the person back before some danger befalls them. While yelling can be done out of your turn, I don't see how yanking someone back could be. This implies you get a fairly significant amount of warning of upcoming danger that you can act on it on your turn. I don't see why you'd get MORE warning for someone else than yourself, so the same should definitely apply if you cast the spell on yourself.

From a balance point of view, it's a pretty bad spell if all it did was give the listed mechanical benefits for a 9th level spell.

[Deophaun]

The part where you cast it on someone else though says you have time for yelling a warning OR yanking the person back before some danger befalls them. While yelling can be done out of your turn, I don't see how yanking someone back could be.
There are no rules for yanking someone back. And we're still at the question of "how far?" If I yank you back, but not far enough to leave your square, then I haven't really done anything at all as far as mechanics are concerned. I only run into issues if I'm trying to remove you from a square, which foresight doesn't allow. Instead, the only thing the rules explicitly allow me to do mechanically is remove your surprised and flat-footed conditions, and I can fluff doing that however I wish.

[Segev]

The part where you cast it on someone else though says you have time for yelling a warning OR yanking the person back before some danger befalls them. While yelling can be done out of your turn, I don't see how yanking someone back could be. This implies you get a fairly significant amount of warning of upcoming danger that you can act on it on your turn. I don't see why you'd get MORE warning for someone else than yourself, so the same should definitely apply if you cast the spell on yourself.

From a balance point of view, it's a pretty bad spell if all it did was give the listed mechanical benefits for a 9th level spell.


Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay. The subject, however, does not gain the insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

The first part of this suggests that the spell grants you the ability to specifically act "in time" to protect them. Given the context and the last part of the quote, it probably means you can tell them not to do something that's about to trigger a trap before they actually trigger the trap (or pull them back so they don't step on the trigger, or that kind of thing).

If you need to justify the "action" that yanking somebody back entails, it can easily be argued that the spell grants you the action for free and immediately.

Interestingly, the last sentence suggests that the insight bonus is not the sole result of the "warnings" you get about what actions to take.

So I would revise my analysis: the warnings probably should take the form of things like the DM telling you, "You were about to step on a trap, but your foresight warned you to avoid that particular tile in the floor," or, "The subject of your foresight spell is about to step on a tile that triggers a trap." The latter case would give you just enough time to call out a warning or grab his shoulder to pull his center of balance back away from stepping on the trapped tile.

Other examples:

"Don't turn that knob."
"Sticking your head in the green devil carving's pitch black mouth is a terrible idea."
"Despite him looking like a peasant you could kill without consequence, you get a terrible sense of foreboding when you go to smack him down with a magic missile. You shouldn't attack or offend him."
"Drink the third glass of wine from your right, and ONLY that one."
"Don't drink either of the cups in your game of wits with the man in black."
"Pawn to Queen Four," and you then realize you would have been in checkmate next move if you hadn't done that.
"Duck."
"Take the door on the left."

[Deophaun]

Interestingly, the last sentence suggests that the insight bonus is not the sole result of the "warnings" you get about what actions to take.
There are four things foresight grants:
- Act on a surprise round
- Never flat-footed
- Insight bonus to AC
- Insight bonus to Reflex

The first two are covered here:

Thus, if you are the subject of the spell, you would be warned in advance if a rogue were about to attempt a sneak attack on you, or if a creature were about to leap out from a hiding place, or if an attacker were specifically targeting you with a spell or ranged weapon.
And it makes sense in the context of a surprise round to have a general idea of the threat facing you, as you need actionable intelligence in order for the spell to be at all useful.

DM: "Surprise round! Go!"
Wizard: "Um... what? Where? How?"
DM: "It's a surprise! You go first!"
Wizard: "I guess I... attack... the... darkness?"

The ability simply doesn't work without it, and there's no requirement for the DM to be able to actually predict the future for that information to be given.

[Segev]

There are four things foresight grants:
- Act on a surprise round
- Never flat-footed
- Insight bonus to AC
- Insight bonus to Reflex

And it makes sense in the context of a surprise round to have a general idea of the threat facing you, as you need actionable intelligence in order for the spell to be at all useful.

DM: "Surprise round! Go!"
Wizard: "Um... what? Where? How?"
DM: "It's a surprise! You go first!"
Wizard: "I guess I... attack... the... darkness?"

The ability simply doesn't work without it, and there's no requirement for the DM to be able to actually predict the future for that information to be given.
Agreed. Generally, foresight doesn't require the DM to predict anything. The DM is the arbiter of one moment moving into the next. He knows what is ABOUT to happen as he's about to describe it. He knows that, as it is about to happen, your PC knows of it and can act to avoid it. Thus, he warns you or incorporates your PC's evasion of the threat into his description. (The latter might be bad form at some tables; "What if I wanted to trigger the trap in that treasure chest!?")

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks everyone for the advice.

It seems that the way the spell should operate isn't as uncontroversial as I expected initially.

I'll just talk to my DM about how we should implement it.

[FearlessGnome]

I'd also have another talk with your DM about the Wildshape nerf. You lose almost all the benefit of one of the Druid's central class features. If you are happy with +1 level compensation, I'd still prestige out immediately, since Wildshape is now almost useless to you and your spellcasting can be advanced by lots of prestige classes, many of which come with class features that (presumably) have not been nerfed to hell and back.

(Unless the nerf is implemented because Druid is too strong a class for this particular DM/campaign, in which case, carry on.)

[Gallowglass]

DM: "Surprise round! Go!"
Wizard: "Um... what? Where? How?"
DM: "It's a surprise! You go first!"

I think I'll start all my sessions like this from now on. Really get them moving from the get go, eliminate all that slow "so how was your week?" blah blah blah social challenges.

[Hiro Quester]

FYI, It is mostly for balance reasons that he wants me to use wildshape less.

With dire-tiger wildshape, and a level of monk, I'm getting iterative unarmed strikes, plus claw claw bite secondary attacks (plus monk's improved grapple-equipped grab and rakes). That with a few self-buffs (bite of wereX, heart of Y, primal Z, energy immunity) and a +3 amulet if mighty fists adding to all those attacks, makes it hard to keep bad guys challenging my Druid while not killing other party members. It takes a really big bad guy to beat my grapple check, for instance.

So encouraging me to focus instead on spell casting (and using my Warbeast Tiger mount to beat face) for the latter levels --and only use wildshape combat sparingly) makes enough sense for balance reasons that I'm willing to go with it.

I do miss the utility of being able to swim, fly, burrow, scurry, sneak, scout, etc. with relative impunity though. But I have certainly made good use of that ability. I can enjoy a new challenge.

[AnachroNinja]

This is sort of a tangent, but depending on how much feat investment and such you have in wildshape, it might be worth talking to your DM about letting you retcon yourself into using the druid variant that trades wildshape for monk fast movement, Wis to AC, favored enemy, and maybe something else. It's on unearthed arcana. It seems as little more streamlined way of representing the changes he wanted to introduce. You could just adjust to druid17 and roll out.

Just something to think about.

[Hiro Quester]

I see that. Thanks for the suggestion. But I already have the monk wis to AC, and track feat (mask of the tiger). I don't want to trade wildshape entirely just for fast movement and favored enemy. Even wildshape 2/day for 10 minutes is a good backup combat form for when spell recourses run low.

[Psyren]

The spell gives you actual warnings in addition to the purely numerical buffs. The PHB examples make this pretty clear. A monster "about to leap out from a hiding place" doesn't interact with your AC until he actually attacks you, but the spell will warn you of the "impending danger" all the same.

[AnachroNinja]

I can understand the decision, I just love the high level fast movement. Especially since Wis to AC is replicated with a monks belt, it's usually the other stuff that draws me in. It's definitely a direct nerf to druids, but that seems to be the way your DM is going anyway.

That said... You run low on spells at 17?

[eggynack]

I get that, Eggynack. But my DM nerfed my wildshape to 2/day for 10 min each (in exchange for+1 Druid level). So I can't just hang out being a dire tortoise, in case we are surprised.
Well, first, that's still like six hours of tortoising if you want it, and second, it's a good part of the plan but not a critical one.


But it's not really fair to say that this spell is similar in power to a time stop. It's kind of similar IF you also add in dire tortoise and a belt of battle. But much of the abilities here don't come from this spell.
A lot of the abilities do. Or, to be more accurate, if you would be surprised, then one of the rounds you're getting comes from foresight. Basically, you're getting all these sources of actions. If everything goes right for you, or rather the best for foresight, the plan gets one round from initiative, one round from your opponents not getting a surprise round, and one round from the belt. You can ditch any of those things and still basically get those actions. With just perfect initiative and no surprise rounds, you're essentially up two rounds on a surprising enemy. Consider the alternate scenarios. With only foresight and no initiative, you go second due to your opponent's presumably higher initiative roll. With no foresight and high initiative, you also go second because your opponent surprised you. With neither effect, your opponent can get two turns on you, one from surprise and one from initiative. Having both effects up thus represents something of a two turn swing. Or, it does for a druid, cause your standard actions are higher impact. Going first on a fighter would not map out to a whole extra turn like that.

Also, as you point out, it's not like you're going wild with great spells here. For day to day stuff, it's mostly that or really direct mass save or X combat stuff.



The spell gives you actual warnings in addition to the purely numerical buffs. The PHB examples make this pretty clear. A monster "about to leap out from a hiding place" doesn't interact with your AC until he actually attacks you, but the spell will warn you of the "impending danger" all the same.
Except that text isn't attached to the AC and reflexes text. It's attached to the surprised and flat-footed text. And it makes perfect sense in the context of immunity to surprise and flat-footedness.