mucking about... worst race class combinations

[8wGremlin]

I know that 5e is very forgiving and you don't need to have as high a level of system mastery as 3.5e.

But what do people think are poor combinations of race and class, from a mechanics and/or a fluff standpoint?

[Biggstick]

Gnome + any class that isn't Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, or Wizard.

Any race that doesn't provide at least a bonus to Dex and Wis (need either a +2 to one or +1 to both) Monk.

A Half Orc primary caster class.

Just a few ideas.

[Zman]

Gnome + any class that isn't Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, or Wizard.

Any race that doesn't provide at least a bonus to Dex and Wis (need either a +2 to one or +1 to both) Monk.

A Half Orc primary caster class.

Just a few ideas.

And none of those will be half as unoptimized as a half Orc Wozard in 3.5, haha!

[NNescio]

Minotaur Monk. Because of a rules oversight.

[TripleD]

Tiefling Barbarian.

There's no synergy* between the bonuses granted by race and what the class asks of you. Many of the special abilities are spells, which you can't use while raging. Finally, if you go Bear Totem you get resistance to fire while raging, somewhat negating the benefits of the built in resistance offered by being a Tiefling.

* There is one niche case in which it is useful. Frenzy Barbarian's "Intimidating Presence" is keyed off of CHA, which is normally a dump stat, but if you wanted to build a barbarian around frightening people it could be useful. But Half-elf and Dragonborn would both work better.

[Draco4472]

The first character I played for 5e was a Half-Orc Rogue. And while that seems okay-ish, I later chose Arcane Trickster as my archetype. Then I took a wizard level for using a spellbook I found. I was always the least optimized person at my table until I made a Half-Orc fighter.

But I'm playing a Dragonborn rogue starting tomorrow (A swasher of certain buckles). Haven't learned my lesson yet.

[Tanarii]

Before SCAG cantrips came out, Mountain Dwarf or Half-Orc Wizard or Sorcerer.

Dex-primary Paladin (elf or halfling) always feels counterintuitive to me, although they're mechanically okay.

Dragonborn monks, wizards. Or to a lesser degree rogues or Rangers, although both can go Str passably.

Many non-Wis races and Druid, since they don't have very much use for Str/Dex or Cha.

Tiefling Clerics & Monks. And of course Barbarians.

Small race Barbarians.


Gnome + any class that isn't Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, or Wizard.I like Gnome Sage with any class that gives access to Nature, Religion and Investigation (2 out of 3). So Cleric, Bard, Knowledge Cleric, Druid, Ranger or Warlock. As long as Reasearch has a chance to come into play.

Rock Gnomes also make fun Guild Artisan (Alchemists Supplies) with a variety of classes.

Of course, both of those backgrounds play well with EK, AT & Wizard. They just feel appropriately thematic to me, regardless of class, on a Gnome.

[Hollysword]

Tiefling Clerics.

Everyone hating on my Lassar :smallfrown: I guess the face I gave her suits her well right now.

Anyway, what about the options in the DMG? Aasimar and Eladrin?

[Tanarii]

Everyone hating on my Lassar :smallfrown: I guess the face I gave her suits her well right now.
They make okay Knowledge Clerics. And they aren't bad. Just not much synergy between the race stats and class.

But to a degree, that's true for any race & class combo where the class primary & attack stat (if different) don't line up. But Tieflings stand out because they don't get a bonus to a physical attack stat, which most classes have at least one build that can use effectively. Rock Gnomes & Hill Dwarves run into the same thing.

[NNescio]

Before SCAG cantrips came out, Mountain Dwarf or Half-Orc Wizard

Ehh, Mountain Dwarf Abjurers (and Necromancers) had their place even before SCAG. Sure, the statline is quite suboptimal, but the added survivability is a boon to newbie players (especially if the DM insists on Theater of the Mind and you can't position your character in a safe position), provided they don't want to multiclass.

[Pex]

Race/class is only a problem if you use Point Buy because the math of the system forces non-humans into particular classes. Dice rolling does not guarantee atypical combinations like dwarf wizards or gnome paladins, but at least the possibility exists if luck is with you. Someone somewhere may very well say he or a friend played a dwarf wizard, gnome paladin, or what have you with Point Buy, but its rarity would not counterpoint. Dwarves are fighters, paladins, or clerics with the occasional Sword Coast Guide barbarian. Gnomes are wizards, moon druids, or rogues.

[treecko]

Now I think the best way to think of this is to make a list of the races with the worst racials and then give them classes that do not correspond to their abilities, also keeping mind that con, dex, and wis are universally decent. For example, half orc has pretty great racials so even a half orc wizard isn't bad. I think the worst racials in the PHB go to dragonborn, tiefling, and gnome. Dragonborn does terrible in a dex class, especailly one that doesn't care about the charisma (rogue!) so I say monk/ranger is the worst for it. Monk or ranger needs 3 stats and dragonborn gives none of them, although I think monk wins because a str ranger beats an str monk. For gnome, their small size and lack of strength makes them terrible paladins/fighters/barbarians if they would want to use great weapon fighting. Of those, barb is the most locked into big weapons, so gnome is hit the hardest. And finally for the worst race, Tiefling. Another poster mentioned barb as well and I think it is wonderfully bad. Not even no synergy, there's anti synergy.

Also in the process of making this I realized how locked into a single style some classes are (barb!) while others are much more free.

[Klorox]

Race/class is only a problem if you use Point Buy because the math of the system forces non-humans into particular classes. Dice rolling does not guarantee atypical combinations like dwarf wizards or gnome paladins, but at least the possibility exists if luck is with you. Someone somewhere may very well say he or a friend played a dwarf wizard, gnome paladin, or what have you with Point Buy, but its rarity would not counterpoint. Dwarves are fighters, paladins, or clerics with the occasional Sword Coast Guide barbarian. Gnomes are wizards, moon druids, or rogues.

I disagree.

Point buy only forces you into using certain races if you feel the need to optimize your character. If you rolled every stat at 16 or higher, you'd still have a more optimized character with the same racial choice.

[JackPhoenix]

One of my players insisted on high elf paladin with greatsword and plate armor. It was pretty bad, only saving grace was that the paladin is good class on its own.

[JellyPooga]

I disagree.

Point buy only forces you into using certain races if you feel the need to optimize your character. If you rolled every stat at 16 or higher, you'd still have a more optimized character with the same racial choice.

I concur. 14 in a stat is only marginally worse than 16 (functionally the best you can get with PB, including Racials) and any Race can get 14 in any stat. Will it be "teh best char8ctar evah!1!!1!"? No. Will is still be perfectly functional? Absolutely.

The only cases I can see where Race and Class produce something horrific and unplayable is when it comes to extreme multiclassing;

For example; a Rock Gnome Monk/Paladin with...

Str:13, Dex:13, Con:13+1, Int:10+2, Wis:13, Cha:13

...but that's more a case of bad Class choices combined with poorly point-bought stats than anything to do with being a Gnome, per se. Sure, another Race (such as Half-Elf or even S.Human) might be able to pull off the Class combo better, even competently, but it's still a generally bad multiclass.

[MrFahrenheit]

What's funny is how even a two level multiclass dip can change something from being a suboptimal choice...to being pretty decent. Assuming 27 point buy.....

Example:
Half-Orc paladin 2/conjuration wizard 10. Stats at CL 12 are 18/8/16/16/8/8. Wields a halberd, so takes PAM. Tactic: use mid-high level slots for summoning spells, then stand behind them in the literal second row, getting two attacks (thanks to PAM's bonus action), and using lower level spell slots to bridge the damage gap through smiting.

Another example:
Lightfoot halfling warlock 2 (fiend or archfey)/divination wizard 4.
Stats at CL 6 are 8/16/12/14/8/16. Took the lucky feat. Idea here is to assume ultimate dice control (icing on the cake comes ten levels later when you get improved portent), while actually pump cha for EB, and taking as many non-save and non-attack spells from the wizard list.

[Corran]

One of my players insisted on high elf paladin with greatsword and plate armor. It was pretty bad, only saving grace was that the paladin is good class on its own.
Yeah, pretty bad combination. It is like putting himself in a position where he is constantly 2 whole ASIs behind. Pretty big. I had once allowed (by my own initiative, the player was pretty new) a halfelf be refluffed as a high elf, for that very reason. Still, it could be worse. He could be a gnome and add disadvantage to attacks to the list of the things that he had going against him.

[Giant2005]

A Human Moon Druid would be pretty terrible. Humans are pretty poor as-is, but they are even worse when their one trait (+1 to all abilities) is even less useful due to half of those abilities being replaced by the beast's abilities.

[NNescio]

A Human Moon Druid would be pretty terrible. Humans are pretty poor as-is, but they are even worse when their one trait (+1 to all abilities) is even less useful due to half of those abilities being replaced by the beast's abilities.

Variant Human, on the other hand...

[mgshamster]

Gnome + any class that isn't Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, or Wizard.


Before SCAG cantrips came out, Mountain Dwarf or Half-Orc Wizard or Sorcerer.

Tiefling Clerics & Monks. And of course Barbarians.

Heh. Three characters I'm playing or have played:

Forest Gnome Beastmaster Ranger (Noble)
Mountain Dwarf Wild Mage Sorc (Urchin)
Tiefling Open Hand Monk (Haunted One, CoS)

All three of those character were a lot of fun. Even though they are categorized as "Unoptimized," they did just fine. With bounded accuracy, simply being 1-2 points behind optimal isn't a big deal.

[DragonSorcererX]

Halfling Anything, Halflings aren't good for RP, only play a Halfling if you are deaf...

[Hollysword]

Halfling Anything, Halflings aren't good for RP, only play a Halfling if you are deaf...

Totally not a halfling that destroyed the great evil in Middle Earth. :smallcool:

[DragonSorcererX]

Totally not a halfling that destroyed the great evil in Middle Earth. :smallcool:

Whenever the book shifted to Frodo and Sam I thought of dropping LotR... I hate most suboptimal weak fictional characters...

[Shining Wrath]

Whenever the book shifted to Frodo and Sam I thought of dropping LotR... I hate most suboptimal weak fictional characters...

Samwise Gamgee is the greatest hero in fantasy literature, because he triumphs based on strength of character alone. No "you alone can wield the magic sword", no "heir to ancient line of kings", no "trained in the arts of magic". He defeats Evil because he is absolutely loyal to his friend.

I can't be Legolas, or Aragorn, or Merlin, or Arthur, or Thomas Covenant. But I can aspire to be Sam.

[Tanarii]

All three of those character were a lot of fun. Even though they are categorized as "Unoptimized," they did just fine. With bounded accuracy, simply being 1-2 points behind optimal isn't a big deal.absolutely. Unoptimized doesn't mean not fun. (Note: nor does it necessarily mean fun either. They don't have to be linked at all is what I mean.)

I've a player that is playing an Int/Cha 16, Dex/Con 12 GoO Tomelock with Chill Touch as his primary ranged attack cantrip. He appears to be having a blast, even without the Blast.

[Maxilian]

Race/class is only a problem if you use Point Buy because the math of the system forces non-humans into particular classes. Dice rolling does not guarantee atypical combinations like dwarf wizards or gnome paladins, but at least the possibility exists if luck is with you. Someone somewhere may very well say he or a friend played a dwarf wizard, gnome paladin, or what have you with Point Buy, but its rarity would not counterpoint. Dwarves are fighters, paladins, or clerics with the occasional Sword Coast Guide barbarian. Gnomes are wizards, moon druids, or rogues.

I think the Point Buy system is quite forgiving, its way harder when you have to work with the Base Stats (The given in the PHB)

[Maxilian]

Halfling Anything, Halflings aren't good for RP, only play a Halfling if you are deaf...

Halfling are cool!, why do you hate Halfling!, its not like they are an annoying small race (I'm pretty sure there's one, that is annoying even in RP, but, thankfully, i can't remmember their name)

[NNescio]

Halfling are cool!, why do you hate Halfling!, its not like they are an annoying small race (I'm pretty sure there's one, that is annoying even in RP, but, thankfully, i can't remmember their name)

Halfing Diviner with the Lucky feat. AKA the Leprechaun build. Sure it sets you an ASI behind (not counting Lucky, since it's generally a good enough feat that most people would want to pick anyway), but hey, are you feelin' lucky?

[JellyPooga]

Samwise Gamgee is the greatest hero in fantasy literature

Darn tootin'! Frodo might have lugged The One Ring, but Samwise carried the Ringbearer halfway up Mount friggin' Doom!

Poor whiny Frodo couldn't handle The Ring, was overcome by Shelob, captured by Orcs, abandoned his friends (even Sam) and succumbed to the guile of Gollum. Not so Samwise; he saw straight through Gollums trickery (using the power of racism, admittedly), gave The Ring back to Frodo when asked, fought his way through a (depleted) tower full of Orcs after badassing his way past the mystical guardians of doom at the gates (with a little help from a certain Phial), rescued his best friend despite his betrayal and gave Shelob a near mortal wound...

...should've just given him The Ring in the first place and said "Sam. You deal with it. You know what to do.", whereupon he'd have put it on, faced down Saruman and Sauron single handed (probably at the same time, to expedite things), rallied the armies of Men, Elves, Dwarves and all the free peoples and marched on Morgoth himself, cleansing evil from the world once and for all. Then he'd have crushed The Ring in his bare hands, squeezing the last remaining piece of Evil in the world from its very core and spun it into thread, woven it into a new creation of light and life for his one true love, gone home, married Rosie and had a bajilion kids, creating a new Race of super-Hobbits who in time came to inherit all of Middle Earth.

That's what I like to think he'd have done anyway...Point being; if you want a job done right, give it to a Halfling (or at least one that isn't just some sycophantic Elfophile).

[Chaosvii7]

Gnome + any class that isn't Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, or Wizard.

You've obviously never witnessed the might of the Rock Gnome Paladin of Ancients, otherwise you would have called it out. A +2 to Int might not be very useful, but it's worth making some of the most powerful spells only half as effective on you.

[MrFahrenheit]

Halfing Diviner with the Lucky feat. AKA the Leprechaun build. Sure it sets you an ASI behind (not counting Lucky, since it's generally a good enough feat that most people would want to pick anyway), but hey, are you feelin' lucky?

This. So much this. At CL 4 (FOUR!), you can reroll any 1s you dropped, force rerolls 3x/day of dice throws against you (halfling luck makes up for your critically poor rolls, effectively making this exclusively bad guy targeting), and you get 2d20 pre-rolled per long rest, usable as you see fit. Sure you don't max int till level 16, but you're gonna be hitting when you need to more often than not. Getting a third d20 at level 14 is really just a cherry on top after ten levels.

[brainface]

Attributes aren't everything, as well--tiefling can make a great front line anything because of its "center fireballs here" resistance, so I'm not sure its actually a terrible monk/fighter/barbarian. (Red Dragon born had the same resistances with a strength bonus, but darkness and hellish rebuke are really good compared to fire breath, imo.)

[NNescio]

You've obviously never witnessed the might of the Rock Gnome Paladin of Ancients, otherwise you would have called it out. A +2 to Int might not be very useful, but it's worth making some of the most powerful spells only half as effective on you.

Or well, Forest Gnome Onion Druid.

[ES Curse]

Tiefling Moon Druid doesn't do very much for you.

Part of the reason this is so hard has to do with the balance of race/class features in 5e. Races offer very few restrictions, only areas that are buffed. Thus, at worst, you are equal to a standard human with no stat increase. Even Small barbarians aren't too bad because you can use shields while raging.

[Joe the Rat]

One point of attack stat isn't a killer, but the AC side is where you can really get hurt. Monk has it the worst, as they lose a lot of their effectiveness if they "buy" an armor class. If you can't pull a dex OR wisdom boost from race it will be rough. No Dex, Wis, or Con? Oy.

Mountain Dwarf Moon Druid seems pretty superfluous, but even then the Con will be a benefit for those times you aren't being a bear.

[Addaran]

Heh. Three characters I'm playing or have played:

Forest Gnome Beastmaster Ranger (Noble)
Mountain Dwarf Wild Mage Sorc (Urchin)
Tiefling Open Hand Monk (Haunted One, CoS)

All three of those character were a lot of fun. Even though they are categorized as "Unoptimized," they did just fine. With bounded accuracy, simply being 1-2 points behind optimal isn't a big deal.

I second this.
I played a Gnome Battle Master. He was very good and did well. No heavy weapons didn't matter, i was dex build with S&B. I was a bit squishy, but it was only cause i had only 12 con. I could have started with 14 if i didn't want good mental stats.

A paladin gnome would be insane to resist spells. +cha and advantage on all mental saves from spell.

[Biggstick]

Loving the response from members here knocking my Gnome comment! Be real with yourselves though, do you first think of playing a Gnome when thinking about playing a Paladin or Ranger?! No hard feelings. <3


I've had a bit of time to come up with other combinations that aren't all that common.

Any Strength focused primary martial class (Fighter/Barb/Str Ranger/Str Paladin/Str Rogue/etc) combined with any Elf subrace.

Any Charisma based primary caster combined with High or Wood Elf.
(Side note here, it seems strange to me that Elves don't make ideal Bards, as Elven is touted as a language Bards should know to learn Elvish songs. Oh well I guess.)

Halflings and Strength focused primary martial classes.

Any race without dark vision playing a scout role (we all know the troubles of trying to scout in the dark and not being able to see).

Dragonborn Wizards (get's angry while studying, destroys the library with fire). Really though any class that can cast spells that don't use Charisma.

[Tanarii]

Loving the response from members here knocking my Gnome comment! Be real with yourselves though, do you first think of playing a Gnome when thinking about playing a Paladin or Ranger?! No hard feelings. <3For Forest Gnomes, absolutely. Every time I think about a Forest Gnome, my first thought is either Ranger or AT. Because Rangers benefit hugely from high Int. They don't *need* it because their class features can make up for a lack of it. OTOH since such a huge part of being an effective Ranger is their Int & Wis skill checks, it's fairly critical. (Edit: Also because a Forest Gnome Ranger seems as thematically normal as a Wood Elf Ranger.)

Rock Gnomes I think of as Illusionists Wizards, or Guild Artisans (either Tinker, Finesmith or Alchemist).

On a side note, my favorite weird seeming combo I want to play some time is Stout Halfling, Barbarian or Valor Bard, and Sailor. Viking Halfling Raider ftw! Although I already like Lightfoot Halflings as Sailors for any class in general, although more as river-barge traders.

[NNescio]

For Forest Gnomes, absolutely. Every time I think about a Forest Gnome, my first thought is either Ranger or AT. Because Rangers benefit hugely from high Int. They don't *need* it because their class features can make up for a lack of it. OTOH since such a huge part of being an effective Ranger is their Int & Wis skill checks, it's fairly critical. (Edit: Also because a Forest Gnome Ranger seems as thematically normal as a Wood Elf Ranger.)

Rock Gnomes I think of as Illusionists, or Guild Artisans (either Tinker, Finesmith or Alchemist).

On a side note, my favorite weird seeming combo I want to play some time is Stout Halfling, Barbarian or Valor Bard, and Sailor. Viking Halfling Raider ftw! Although I already like Lightfoot Halflings as Sailors for any class in general, although more as river-barge traders.

Oddly, Forest Gnomes are the ones who get Minor Illusion.

[Tanarii]

Oddly, Forest Gnomes are the ones who get Minor Illusion.I know, but that combined with their Dex bonus makes me think AT instead of Wizard.

I didn't say it was logical. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: But fair enough. I do think of Rock Gnomes as Wizards in general, who tend to be Illusionists more than other kinds. Edited my post.

[Klorox]

What's funny is how even a two level multiclass dip can change something from being a suboptimal choice...to being pretty decent. Assuming 27 point buy.....

Example:
Half-Orc paladin 2/conjuration wizard 10. Stats at CL 12 are 18/8/16/16/8/8. Wields a halberd, so takes PAM. Tactic: use mid-high level slots for summoning spells, then stand behind them in the literal second row, getting two attacks (thanks to PAM's bonus action), and using lower level spell slots to bridge the damage gap through smiting.
I know I'm picking nits here, but you need a 13 CHA to multiclass a paladin.


Samwise Gamgee is the greatest hero in fantasy literature, because he triumphs based on strength of character alone. No "you alone can wield the magic sword", no "heir to ancient line of kings", no "trained in the arts of magic". He defeats Evil because he is absolutely loyal to his friend.

I can't be Legolas, or Aragorn, or Merlin, or Arthur, or Thomas Covenant. But I can aspire to be Sam.

<3

Sam is the best.

[Shining Wrath]

Or well, Forest Gnome Onion Druid.

I've got one of those at my table now. I haven't been throwing too many spell casters at them yet but I expect to soon, and (s)he'll really shine (male player, female character, pronoun confusing). That Wis save came in handy against the Gibbering Mouther, though.

[Pex]

I disagree.

Point buy only forces you into using certain races if you feel the need to optimize your character. If you rolled every stat at 16 or higher, you'd still have a more optimized character with the same racial choice.

If optimization is not a factor then the concept of worst race class combination wouldn't exist.

It is not essential to make the best mathematical character possible, but it is necessary to make a functional one. Point Buy makes that hard for various race/class combinations, given it could be subjective to the individual on what makes a functional character. Dice rolling offers the more likely chance given one is lucky.

If I roll all 16s a gnome paladin makes for a functional character that is hard pressed to make if Point Buy was used. It is irrelevant if a mountain dwarf paladin would have made a more mathematical optimized character with those 16s. The focus is on whether a gnome paladin could work.

[Tanarii]

It is not essential to make the best mathematical character possible, but it is necessary to make a functional one. Point Buy makes that hard for various race/class combinationsNot really. PB can make it hard to make a non-optimized character for certain race/single class combos. But it doesn't make non-functional ones. A starting primary stat of 14 is entirely functional in 5e. It's just not optimal.

The closest to it is a Tiefling Barbarian, who's major racial feature specifically can't be used during a rage. And even then, Barbarians aren't expected to be raging for every combat in a typical adventuring day, and those racials are only usable once / day.

Edit: I understand your primary point though. Yes, in a thread about 'worst' race/class combos, it's probably easier to avoid things being worse with rolling than Point Buy.

[Klorox]

If optimization is not a factor then the concept of worst race class combination wouldn't exist.

It is not essential to make the best mathematical character possible, but it is necessary to make a functional one. Point Buy makes that hard for various race/class combinations, given it could be subjective to the individual on what makes a functional character. Dice rolling offers the more likely chance given one is lucky.

If I roll all 16s a gnome paladin makes for a functional character that is hard pressed to make if Point Buy was used. It is irrelevant if a mountain dwarf paladin would have made a more mathematical optimized character with those 16s. The focus is on whether a gnome paladin could work.
I contend that you can make a functional character with any race/class combination in 5e.

Is wood elf, aarokockra, or ghostwise halfling with optimized stats going to do better than any other monk? Yes. But a tiefling monk is still a decent character.

[mgshamster]

If optimization is not a factor then the concept of worst race class combination wouldn't exist.

It is not essential to make the best mathematical character possible, but it is necessary to make a functional one. Point Buy makes that hard for various race/class combinations, given it could be subjective to the individual on what makes a functional character. Dice rolling offers the more likely chance given one is lucky.

If I roll all 16s a gnome paladin makes for a functional character that is hard pressed to make if Point Buy was used. It is irrelevant if a mountain dwarf paladin would have made a more mathematical optimized character with those 16s. The focus is on whether a gnome paladin could work.

There is no race/class combustion that's not functional. Not a single one. There are some that aren't optimized, but they're not dead weight or so poorly combined that they're near useles.

The only way to make a character become dead weight is to intentionally build for it by placing your stats in bad spots, and even then it's questionable on how bad they'll really be with bounded accuracy.

This ain't 3.5; you're not going to accidentally fall into a trap and end up wth a pathetic character simply by picking a race and a class.

In 5e, you can randomly roll for race and class and you will always end up with a useful character, even if it's not the most optimized.

[MrFahrenheit]

Lightfoot halfling land Druid. Meant more for high level campaigns. Level 18?

Wild shape into a chipmunk pre-combat.
Move action: go behind an ally farthest from the front.
Action: cast a spell.
Bonus action: hide

[R.Shackleford]

Gnome + any class that isn't Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, or Wizard.

Any race that doesn't provide at least a bonus to Dex and Wis (need either a +2 to one or +1 to both) Monk.

A Half Orc primary caster class.

Just a few ideas.

Gnome Barbarian says Hi.

Shield and Sword Gnome Barbarian says hi.

Dex/Int based Knowledge Cleric also says hi.

Gnome Warlock is also another great use of the gnome. Dex based Fiend Blade Warlock? Yes.

I could go on...


Half Orc Bard (eventually Valor) is a fantastic low level build when you use Sleep as your primary spell :p. I did this when AL first started up, absolutely wrecked things... But I blame the DM for making me roll for my race and class.



Edit
My biggest issue though is that based on your race and class selection you are punished. You have to pick between what is optimal and what is cool (for you). That is a terrible choice for a game to ever force on a player.

[NNescio]

Lightfoot halfling land Druid. Meant more for high level campaigns. Level 18?

Wild shape into a chipmunk pre-combat.
Move action: go behind an ally farthest from the front.
Action: cast a spell.
Bonus action: hide

At higher levels Wildshaping into a low CR form is a serious liability as it makes you vulnerable to all sorts of effects that target HP instead of AC/saves. Some of these nasty effects cause instadeath (Power Word Kill, for example, is available starting from Level 17, and enemy casters with it would have an approximate CR of around 13~15). Disintegrate may also ignore your onion layer, depending on DM adjudication.

[Tanarii]

Half Orc Bard (eventually Valor) is a fantastic low level build when you use Sleep as your primary spell :p. I did this when AL first started up, absolutely wrecked things... But I blame the DM for making me roll for my race and class.Yeah half-orc Valor Bards are awesome. You can even dump Cha a bit and focus on non-DC spells (like divinations). Of course, depending on your viewpoint, some people might debate if this is 'primary' caster.

[mgshamster]

At higher levels Wildshaping into a low CR form is a serious liability as it makes you vulnerable to all sorts of effects that target HP instead of AC/saves. Some of these nasty effects cause instadeath (Power Word Kill, for example, is available starting from Level 17, and enemy casters with it would have an approximate CR of around 13~15). Disintegrate may also ignore your onion layer, depending on DM adjudication.

When's the last time you focused high level spells on a random forest critter when there was a heavily armored opponent and a powerful wizard fighting you?

Doesn't seem like the smart move. How do you know which random forest critter is the right one? Why are you even looking at them instead of the real threat right in front of you?

[Shining Wrath]

When's the last time you focused high level spells on a random forest critter when there was a heavily armored opponent and a powerful wizard fighting you?

Doesn't seem like the smart move. How do you know which random forest critter is the right one? Why are you even looking at them instead of the real threat right in front of you?

When the powerful spellcaster has high perception and arcana, and can recognize which forest critter is buffing the fighter? It's a game of chess, and the DM is within his rights to throw a challenge at you that makes your preferred tactic less effective.

[R.Shackleford]

Yeah half-orc Valor Bards are awesome. You can even dump Cha a bit and focus on non-DC spells (like divinations). Of course, depending on your viewpoint, some people might debate if this is 'primary' caster.

Oh, I ran around with an 10 Charisma casting sleep all the time. My allies loved me.

I was definitely an effective primary caster :p just a rather limited one.

I need to rebuild this dude again.

[Tanarii]

When the powerful spellcaster has high perception and arcana, and can recognize which forest critter is buffing the fighter?How does Arcana give you a chance to notice this again? It's for lore about magic in general, not spotting active spellcasting.

OTOH does wildshape casting remove V, S or M components? If not, why would you need to make a perception check at all to recognize that a forest critter is casting spells?

[mgshamster]

How does Arcana give you a chance to notice this again? It's for lore about magic in general, not spotting active spellcasting.

OTOH does wildshape casting remove V, S or M components? If not, why would you need to make a perception check at all to recognize that a forest critter is casting spells?

It doesn't remove them. However, you can't even cast spells with M components, only V/S components.

My point wasn't to claim that you can't tell if a squirrel is casting, it's that in the midst of battle against obvious opponents, it's extremely rare for someone to think that the random forest critters are going to be the true threat. Unless you're up against someone who is specifically aware that you use this tactic or you're in a world where tiny forest animals regularly pose a threat, then it should work well the vast majority of the time. It's a rather creative use of the class.

Note the progression of the conversation:

"I turn into a squirrel, sneak past the enemy, cast from behind their ranks, and hide."

"Too dangerous, small animals have low HP; enemy will just target you."

"How many times have you targeted what looks like a random forest critter in the face of obvious threats?"

"Doesn't matter, a DM may specially craft an enemy to counter this tactic."

But do take note of the number of times anyone on these boards has ever talked about targeting random forest critters in combat before this tactic was mentioned - I surely can't think of any. It's not something people think to do.

[Tanarii]

But, unless it's a Sorcerer with Subtle spell, it's a random forest critter casting spells.

That's got to change how the enemy chooses to think about said critter.

[R.Shackleford]

But, unless it's a Sorcerer with Subtle spell, it's a random forest critter casting spells.

That's got to change how the enemy chooses to think about said critter.

forest critter with very little HP... If I'm a high level caster I'm going to target that casting squirrel with a Power Word Kill out of principal.

Or grab it and put it in a tiny cage made up of dwarven mithril and whatever wolverine's bones are made up of and see what happens in a few hours.

[Addaran]

Regarding the casting squirrel, it depends what spell you're actually casting. If you're just buffing/healing the one you hide behind, it would be harder to notice. If you're flinging thorn whip to drag him accross the spike growth you just casted, they'll definitively take notice at you. Same if you throw crowd control at them (think NWN games, even spell like sleep or entangle had a glowing ball travelling to the targetted area before the effect happenned)




For the OP, one combo i find sad is dragonborn sorcerer. Outside niche builds, the +2 str is wasted. The breath isn't that usefull when you actually have better aoe spells. And if you go thematic and pick the same color, the grant resistance ability is wasted. They don't stack so you're just saving 1 sorcery point.


It's more a role then class but anyone without darkvision that want to be a scout (except warlock). You're either screwed or you need to constantly waste ki/spell slots for darkvision.

[Biggstick]

Gnome Barbarian says Hi.

Shield and Sword Gnome Barbarian says hi.

Dex/Int based Knowledge Cleric also says hi.

Gnome Warlock is also another great use of the gnome. Dex based Fiend Blade Warlock? Yes.

I could go on...


Half Orc Bard (eventually Valor) is a fantastic low level build when you use Sleep as your primary spell :p. I did this when AL first started up, absolutely wrecked things... But I blame the DM for making me roll for my race and class.



Edit
My biggest issue though is that based on your race and class selection you are punished. You have to pick between what is optimal and what is cool (for you). That is a terrible choice for a game to ever force on a player.

Let's back up for a minute. I'm assuming the OP is basing this off of a point buy or standard array, as anything becomes possible if rolls are in play. Moving forward, None of the Gnome based options you listed gain anything from +2 Int other then what a +1 brings to their checks and saves.

The Gnome Barbarian you listed is could be either Dex or Str focused. If it's Dex focused, you're playing a very niche build that I've never actually seen in real play. If it's Str focused, you're always going to be behind against a race that provides a benefit to Str. As a Gnome Barbarian, you're also only going to be able to grapple targets that are Medium or smaller, and even that's at disadvantage unless you're raging. Sure the defensive benefits of Gnome Cunning are fantastic on a Barbarian, but that's about all it really has going for it in the way of being a Barbarian.

Same is true when it comes to Bladelock. This is another class that has a heavy ASI cost that is made even more difficult by the given Gnome stat bonuses. Again, the Gnome Cunning benefits are great, no denying that.

Thematically I'll agree that an Int based Knowledge Cleric is solid play. The issue here is that Knowledge Clerics are still wanting to max out Wisdom ASAP for their level 8 feature, as well as their level 6 channel divinity.

All of these listed examples are definitely playable, as is just about anything in 5e. The OP was asking for the worst race class combinations. While worst is subjective, the closest thing we can get to that imo is looking at stat bonuses, PC race expectations, and class expectations.



Your Half Orc Valor Bard sounds awesome! I'm running a 14 Cha Valor Bard (who's maxing Dex first) in my Wednesday game and I'm loving it.

[Tanarii]

If you're just buffing/healing the one you hide behind, it would be harder to notice.Oh, well, if by 'hide' you actually mean 'take cover behind', as opposed to D&D's mechanical Hiding ... then yeah, in that case you're still a critter noticeably casting spells. They're just not flashy spells.

Conversely, mgshamster's actions description specifically said 'hide' as an action, so I assume he meant D&D's mechanical Hiding. But that was after noticeably (ie no Subtle metamagic) casting spells. And of course, in that case being a forest critter wasn't a necessary part of hiding behind the creature, since a Halfling can already do that.

[Addaran]

Oh, well, if by 'hide' you actually mean 'take cover behind', as opposed to D&D's mechanical Hiding ... then yeah, in that case you're still a critter noticeably casting spells. They're just not flashy spells.

Conversely, mgshamster's actions description specifically said 'hide' as an action, so I assume he meant D&D's mechanical Hiding. But that was after noticeably (ie no Subtle metamagic) casting spells. And of course, in that case being a forest critter wasn't a necessary part of hiding behind the creature, since a Halfling can already do that.

If you have total cover cause you're extremely small and the person in front of you is so big, the enemy won't be able to see you cast a spell (if no verbal). Especially if the effect happens between you and the target, and the enemy doesn't see that space.

But i think he was talking about the halfling special ability. The smaller size of a critter, while not really necessary, helps look non-threatening if the enemy is moving around the field and eventually see you AND you can now hide even behind other halflings/gnomes.

[GlenSmash!]

Darn tootin'! Frodo might have lugged The One Ring, but Samwise carried the Ringbearer halfway up Mount friggin' Doom!

Poor whiny Frodo couldn't handle The Ring, was overcome by Shelob, captured by Orcs, abandoned his friends (even Sam) and succumbed to the guile of Gollum. Not so Samwise; he saw straight through Gollums trickery (using the power of racism, admittedly), gave The Ring back to Frodo when asked, fought his way through a (depleted) tower full of Orcs after badassing his way past the mystical guardians of doom at the gates (with a little help from a certain Phial), rescued his best friend despite his betrayal and gave Shelob a near mortal wound...

...should've just given him The Ring in the first place and said "Sam. You deal with it. You know what to do.", whereupon he'd have put it on, faced down Saruman and Sauron single handed (probably at the same time, to expedite things), rallied the armies of Men, Elves, Dwarves and all the free peoples and marched on Morgoth himself, cleansing evil from the world once and for all. Then he'd have crushed The Ring in his bare hands, squeezing the last remaining piece of Evil in the world from its very core and spun it into thread, woven it into a new creation of light and life for his one true love, gone home, married Rosie and had a bajilion kids, creating a new Race of super-Hobbits who in time came to inherit all of Middle Earth.

That's what I like to think he'd have done anyway...Point being; if you want a job done right, give it to a Halfling (or at least one that isn't just some sycophantic Elfophile).

Woah I love Sam but you're doing Frodo a disservice here, at least book Frodo. Movie Frodo you are spot on. Book Frodo threw down with a barrow wight to save his friends and absolutely carried the ring farther than any one else could have. I love Sam I freakin' adore him, but he never would have stood up in the Council of Elrond and accept the burden of the ring.

Also Sam was a huge Elfophile (nice word btw)

Also i'm really mad that the movies downplayed Frodo's heroism (and Faramir's gentility) in an attempt to add drama. Well "really mad" isn't true. More like "mildly annoyed at people getting the wrong idea about Tolkien's characters from the films"

[Tanarii]

If you have total cover cause you're extremely small and the person in front of you is so big, the enemy won't be able to see you cast a spell (if no verbal).Hmmm. I didn't think creatures could provide other creatures with total cover.

[mgshamster]

If you have total cover cause you're extremely small and the person in front of you is so big, the enemy won't be able to see you cast a spell (if no verbal). Especially if the effect happens between you and the target, and the enemy doesn't see that space.

But i think he was talking about the halfling special ability. The smaller size of a critter, while not really necessary, helps look non-threatening if the enemy is moving around the field and eventually see you AND you can now hide even behind other halflings/gnomes.

I guess it raises the question:

How small can you get with wildshape? Turn into a fly? Then it doesn't matter if you're not even hiding, no one's going to see a fly's little arm movements from 30' away.

Or does it have to be a "beast" specifically listed in the books? In that case, even a squirrel is out of the options.

[R.Shackleford]

Let's back up for a minute. I'm assuming the OP is basing this off of a point buy or standard array, as anything becomes possible if rolls are in play. Moving forward, None of the Gnome based options you listed gain anything from +2 Int other then what a +1 brings to their checks and saves.

The Gnome Barbarian you listed is could be either Dex or Str focused. If it's Dex focused, you're playing a very niche build that I've never actually seen in real play. If it's Str focused, you're always going to be behind against a race that provides a benefit to Str. As a Gnome Barbarian, you're also only going to be able to grapple targets that are Medium or smaller, and even that's at disadvantage unless you're raging. Sure the defensive benefits of Gnome Cunning are fantastic on a Barbarian, but that's about all it really has going for it in the way of being a Barbarian.

Same is true when it comes to Bladelock. This is another class that has a heavy ASI cost that is made even more difficult by the given Gnome stat bonuses. Again, the Gnome Cunning benefits are great, no denying that.

Thematically I'll agree that an Int based Knowledge Cleric is solid play. The issue here is that Knowledge Clerics are still wanting to max out Wisdom ASAP for their level 8 feature, as well as their level 6 channel divinity.

All of these listed examples are definitely playable, as is just about anything in 5e. The OP was asking for the worst race class combinations. While worst is subjective, the closest thing we can get to that imo is looking at stat bonuses, PC race expectations, and class expectations.



Your Half Orc Valor Bard sounds awesome! I'm running a 14 Cha Valor Bard (who's maxing Dex first) in my Wednesday game and I'm loving it.

Please go look into the Dexbarian, they are awesome and are typically Halflings but the Gnome works fine. Google will be your friend here. But the reason why a Gnome works as a Barbarian is because of Wolf Totem and the "Climb Onto Bigger Creature" action. You make a barbarian that is an annoying little turd. You aren't a striker, you are a controller, and a very good one at that funny enough.

The reason why Int does well with Warlocks is their skills (they have some nice Int Skills) and the fact that the Warlock can cherry pick saves (so your Cha on a blade lock won't need to be maxed).

Forest Gnome Urchin Warlock (Fiend Blade) 4

Str: 9
Dex: 16 (+1 Race, +1 lv 4)
Con: 14
Int: 14 (+1 Race, +1 Level 4)
Wis: 10
Cha: 14

Racial Bonus to Saves: Advantage on Int, Wis, and Cha versus Magic.

HP: 31 (temp HP whenever I kill things)
AC: 16

Skills: Acrobatics (originally sleight of hand but this dude isn't a thief) (+5), Stealth (+5), Arcana (+4), and Investigation (+4)

Spells Known (5): Burning Hands and Command are two that I'm taking from the Fiend List. From the Warlock list I'm taking 3 more... Hex, Misty Step and Darkness.

Weapon Attack: Rapier or Whip, Warlock Weapon.

Mage Armor: Always on
Super Awesome Darkvision: Always on

I always have a way to be useful. Hex does allow me to do more damage, but I like it for the always sweet disadvantage on ability checks. I can cherry pick the saves that my enemies will be using. If I see a big dumb dude? Command. If I see someone that doesn't look so dexterous? Burning hands. Want to go melee? Darkness or Hex.


I could keep some other spells instead of the ones I chose... But a Gnome Warlock works just fine.

Now, I'm not a fan of racial ability scores and prefer races to show they are that race through other means... But this still works as a Blade Lock.

Creatures can't get out of my darkness spell if I'm climbing them ;)

[DragonSorcererX]

Halfling are cool!, why do you hate Halfling!, its not like they are an annoying small race (I'm pretty sure there's one, that is annoying even in RP, but, thankfully, i can't remmember their name)

I hate halflings because of Frodo and Sam, I hate those two suboptimal weaklings! Belkar is the only Halfling that I like and he is my favorite OotS character, even being a Halfling!

http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/tumblr_l9vo0tvxw71qcd5kxo1_500.jpg

[JellyPooga]

Woah I love Sam but you're doing Frodo a disservice here, at least book Frodo. Movie Frodo you are spot on. Book Frodo threw down with a barrow wight to save his friends and absolutely carried the ring farther than any one else could have. I love Sam I freakin' adore him, but he never would have stood up in the Council of Elrond and accept the burden of the ring.

Also Sam was a huge Elfophile (nice word btw)

Also i'm really mad that the movies downplayed Frodo's heroism (and Faramir's gentility) in an attempt to add drama. Well "really mad" isn't true. More like "mildly annoyed at people getting the wrong idea about Tolkien's characters from the films"

Heh, yeah, I totally agree and you are right, Sam was much more of an Elfophile than Frodo ever was. I join you in your "mild annoyance"; the movies were a good adaptation, but not a faithful one and the disservice they did to most of the characters is what galls more than any plot or scene change or omission.

[Shining Wrath]

Heh, yeah, I totally agree and you are right, Sam was much more of an Elfophile than Frodo ever was. I join you in your "mild annoyance"; the movies were a good adaptation, but not a faithful one and the disservice they did to most of the characters is what galls more than any plot or scene change or omission.

Denethor went from tragic to obnoxious. Gandalf cowering before the Lord of the Nazgul (director's cut version) was annoying.

Frodo sending Sam away in favor of Gollum meant that the people who wrote the screenplay did not comprehend the characters of the books at an even minimal level. They also botched Treebeard pretty badly. OTOH, I think they did a pretty good Wormtongue.

Frodo made a series of DC 25 will saves against the most powerful evil artifact in that campaign setting over a period of months. Gandalf or Aragorn would have been another ringwraith in a week. "Suboptimal" my fragrant hindquarters.

[DragonSorcererX]

"Suboptimal" my fragrant hindquarters.

A good WIS save doesn't mean optimization, Frodo and Sam were probably a member of a NPC Class like Commoner...

Except for Legolas and Gimli who were two awesome Murder Hobos, all the others were a bunch of n00bs and Gandalf was the n00best of all, if it wasn't for the DM (Illuvatar) letting him unleash his Deus Ex Machina form and use the XP of the Balrog to enter some Prestige Class he would become ashes...

[R.Shackleford]

Denethor went from tragic to obnoxious. Gandalf cowering before the Lord of the Nazgul (director's cut version) was annoying.

Frodo sending Sam away in favor of Gollum meant that the people who wrote the screenplay did not comprehend the characters of the books at an even minimal level. They also botched Treebeard pretty badly. OTOH, I think they did a pretty good Wormtongue.

Frodo made a series of DC 25 will saves against the most powerful evil artifact in that campaign setting over a period of months. Gandalf or Aragorn would have been another ringwraith in a week. "Suboptimal" my fragrant hindquarters.

This is why D&D games shouldn't be modeled after stories. Stories have mary sues and a whole lot more plot armor than HP.

They also, typically, focus on one or two characters while the others are left behind. Even in videogames this happens.

Lord of the Rings and other stories like this make for terrible D&D games.

[Pex]

I contend that you can make a functional character with any race/class combination in 5e.

Is wood elf, aarokockra, or ghostwise halfling with optimized stats going to do better than any other monk? Yes. But a tiefling monk is still a decent character.


There is no race/class combustion that's not functional. Not a single one. There are some that aren't optimized, but they're not dead weight or so poorly combined that they're near useles.

The only way to make a character become dead weight is to intentionally build for it by placing your stats in bad spots, and even then it's questionable on how bad they'll really be with bounded accuracy.

This ain't 3.5; you're not going to accidentally fall into a trap and end up wth a pathetic character simply by picking a race and a class.

In 5e, you can randomly roll for race and class and you will always end up with a useful character, even if it's not the most optimized.

So what you're telling the OP is his question is moot. To be literal you could evaluate race/class combinations with some having more synergy than others such that there exist a least synergy combination of race and class which would then be labeled "worst", but I doubt that is the intended meaning of the question. If it really is so be it, but since the word "poor" was used that established a question of functionality and you're saying every race/class combination is functional.

[R.Shackleford]

So what you're telling the OP is his question is moot. To be literal you could evaluate race/class combinations with some having more synergy than others such that there exist a least synergy combination of race and class which would then be labeled "worst", but I doubt that is the intended meaning of the question. If it really is so be it, but since the word "poor" was used that established a question of functionality and you're saying every race/class combination is functional.

Because thr game assumes you are going against creatures with... not so good defenses (and the fact you probably won't make it past level 8) there is no real poor class/race combos.

There are poor build combos however.

It just sucks that cool and optimal have to fight so much.

[mgshamster]

So what you're telling the OP is his question is moot. To be literal you could evaluate race/class combinations with some having more synergy than others such that there exist a least synergy combination of race and class which would then be labeled "worst", but I doubt that is the intended meaning of the question. If it really is so be it, but since the word "poor" was used that established a question of functionality and you're saying every race/class combination is functional.

That's an assessment I agree with. I think you're spot on.

[Saeviomage]

Non variant human rogue in a campaign with a DM that thinks monsters just sit around in pitch blackness waiting for adventurers to trip over them?

Non variant human anything is probably close to the worst you can do, because your racial ability is basically "The stats that I'm poor at are slightly better". You're a bit better off because you can't actually avoid benefiting from your stat bonuses.

Rock gnome in a class with little use for intelligence is probably second worst, depending on DM, because your racial ability is "bonus to checks that don't happen and proficiency in a tool kit that you could get for ~250gp and some downtime".

[R.Shackleford]

Non variant human rogue in a campaign with a DM that thinks monsters just sit around in pitch blackness waiting for adventurers to trip over them?

Non variant human anything is probably close to the worst you can do, because your racial ability is basically "The stats that I'm poor at are slightly better". You're a bit better off because you can't actually avoid benefiting from your stat bonuses.

Rock gnome in a class with little use for intelligence is probably second worst, depending on DM, because your racial ability is "bonus to checks that don't happen and proficiency in a tool kit that you could get for ~250gp and some downtime".

Non-variant humans are for when you are allowed to MC and you have a cool concept for that 3 or 4 class dip.

Rock Gnomes make decent controllbarians. They also make great clerics.

[Hollysword]

Lord of the Rings and other stories like this make for terrible D&D games.

DM of the Rings shows that it's pretty decent actually. (It's D&D 3.5 though)

[R.Shackleford]

DM of the Rings shows that it's pretty decent actually. (It's D&D 3.5 though)

No, it doesnt. It just shows what happens when you take D&D and put it to LotR screenshots.

It makes for a good webcomic, but trying to make a story by playing a D&D game is terrible idea and ends up having the DM telling the players what they are doing and where they must go and all that.

Taking a D&D game and turning it into to a story is another thing.

[Telok]

I had a nice character idea once, bit of backstory and all. Essentially a lesser noble, well educated, trained in arms and not a pushover in melee, but smart, charming, and skilled at magic. Also, gnome.

I tried about five or six builds and found that fighter 1 or 2 and then lore bard worked best. Valor bard didn't cut it. He also needed at least one, but better with two feats to fully flesh out.

I show up and the DM says "point buy!" Cue the suckage. Had to dumpstat dex and wis just to get the minimum working stats for the character, which went a little bit against the character concept but not too much. The bad thing was being stuck at freaking 14s in his important stats untill level 14 or skipping a couple of character defining points in order to take ASIs and not have crap bonuses.

[Tanarii]

A single class Bladelock or Valor Bard sounds exactly like they'd fit your character concept. But I can understand if you weren't feeling it.

S 14, D 10, C 13, I 12, W 10, Ch 14 is a perfectly fine set of pre-racial PB stats for a Rock Gnome Fighter Noble going to Lore Bard at 3rd level. Feats wanted at 6 & 10, start upping stats at 14. Alternately if you want that S 16 / Ch 16 real bad, start S 15 D 8 C 11 Ch 15, and ASI S/Ch at level 6. Totally viable builds either way, although clearly not as optimized for the first build.

So what exactly was the problem? Heavy optimized game with higher than normal difficulty challenges?

(Edit: corrected feat & ASI levels due to multiclassing.)

[NNescio]

I don't get why people complain about point buy leading to crappy multiclasses suffering from MAD. It's possible to roll low for stats if you, well, roll for stats.

[Tanarii]

I don't get why people complain about point buy leading to crappy multiclasses suffering from MAD. It's possible to roll low for stats if you, well, roll for stats.The chances of getting significantly worse rolls than either Standard Array or PB are fairly low, depending on how you define worse and which PB array it is. Rolling definitely produces a higher average than Standard Array.

That's not to say it can't happen. Choosing to play an off-stat non-Dex/Wis race as a Monk, for example, when you're rolling, is taking a chance. Especially if you're doing it by the rules, rolling after choosing race and class.

[Lombra]

I'm playing a tiefling monk and it's a choice that I regret each day. But hey, I have a jumpy-punchy devil spearman who occasionally sets people on fire, so it's cool.

[Telok]

A single class Bladelock or Valor Bard sounds exactly like they'd fit your character concept. But I can understand if you weren't feeling it.

S 14, D 10, C 13, I 12, W 10, Ch 14 is a perfectly fine set of pre-racial PB stats for a Rock Gnome Fighter Noble going to Lore Bard at 3rd level. Feats wanted at 6 & 10, start upping stats at 14. Alternately if you want that S 16 / Ch 16 real bad, start S 15 D 8 C 11 Ch 15, and ASI S/Ch at level 6. Totally viable builds either way, although clearly not as optimized for the first build.

So what exactly was the problem? Heavy optimized game with higher than normal difficulty challenges?

(Edit: corrected feat & ASI levels due to multiclassing.)

Nope. Those didn't fit. Several aspects of lore bard fit perfectly and valor isn't really a significant martial upgrade for this concept. Warlock definitely didn't fit.

The problem wasn't the first three levels, everyone's bonus is so low at that point that the d20 rules all.but at 4 everyone upgraded to an 18 main stat and the relative -2 became noticeable in combat. Especially because there was a straight lore bard and a straight fighter in the party and there were three to five rolls every game where the 2 point diffetence turned success into failure. I knew that I'd be a touch behind by spreading stats through the character concept but the -2, that was only going to get worse, really turned out to be harshing the character.

Since the game was only supposed to go up to 12 or 13 getting the character concept online and up to parity by level 6 was important. Couldn't do that with the point buy. The game fell apart at level six anyways so I never had to deal with being at -3 versus the other characters.

[Saeviomage]

Non-variant humans are for when you are allowed to MC and you have a cool concept for that 3 or 4 class dip.

I thought we were discounting builds that were deliberately bad? :P


Rock Gnomes make decent controllbarians.

Given that they have only other small races in competition with them (assuming you're talking about climbing a foe), how are they better than forest gnomes or halflings (ie - every other small race)? By my reckoning that makes them the worst controllbarians.


They also make great clerics.
Again: in what way do they out-do forest gnomes or halflings in this respect?

[Specter]

Dragonborn Wizard/Druid/Cleric.

[R.Shackleford]

Dragonborn Wizard/Druid/Cleric.

This works at levels 1, but wanted to show it at level 6 due to when Necromancer really comes out line.


Level 6 Bronze Dragonborn Somdier Necromancer Wizard

Blake never really did make a decent soldier. Athletics and History are his skills.


Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 9

AC: Mage Armor: 15
HP: 38

Arcana, Investigation, Athletics, and History.

Dragonborn Features:
• Bronze Dragon
• You can breathe a 30 ft line of Lightning(once between rests), dealing 3d6 Lightning damage, Dex save for half damage (DC 13). DC = 8 + Con mod + prof
• You resist Lightning damage

Class Features:
• Regain half your level (min 1) worth of spell slots during a short rest (once per day)
• Wizard Archetype: Necromancy
• Half gold/time cost to copy school spells
• Regain 2 x spell level (3 if necromancy) hp when your spells kill
• Observant: You gain +5 to passive perception and investigation, can read lips, and gain +1 to either Int or Wis
• You add animate dead to your spellbook, can create two undead when you cast animate dead, and any undead you create are stronger (see rules)

I'm not seeing how this Dragonborn makes a bad wizard :p. Even with other schools, you don't need maximum Int when you can cherry pick which saves an enemy will use. :smalltongue:

Evocation Dragonborn Wizard works quite well too.


Other atuff.

Being great at something only means your character versus the game.

Gnomebarians only need training in Athletics + Rage and they don't need a Str past 14 (advantage str checks). They can climb o to a bigger creature and their wolf totem will stay active. Attack the creature (headbutt it to death?) to keep rage going. If an enemy spellcasters tries to command you? You have advantage on mental saves v magic.

Gnomes makes the perfect controlbarians.

[Specter]

This works at levels 1, but wanted to show it at level 6 due to when Necromancer really comes out line.


Level 6 Bronze Dragonborn Somdier Necromancer Wizard

Blake never really did make a decent soldier. Athletics and History are his skills.


Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 9

AC: Mage Armor: 15
HP: 38

Arcana, Investigation, Athletics, and History.

Dragonborn Features:
• Bronze Dragon
• You can breathe a 30 ft line of Lightning(once between rests), dealing 3d6 Lightning damage, Dex save for half damage (DC 13). DC = 8 + Con mod + prof
• You resist Lightning damage

Class Features:
• Regain half your level (min 1) worth of spell slots during a short rest (once per day)
• Wizard Archetype: Necromancy
• Half gold/time cost to copy school spells
• Regain 2 x spell level (3 if necromancy) hp when your spells kill
• Observant: You gain +5 to passive perception and investigation, can read lips, and gain +1 to either Int or Wis
• You add animate dead to your spellbook, can create two undead when you cast animate dead, and any undead you create are stronger (see rules)

I'm not seeing how this Dragonborn makes a bad wizard :p. Even with other schools, you don't need maximum Int when you can cherry pick which saves an enemy will use. :smalltongue:

Evocation Dragonborn Wizard works quite well too.


Other atuff.

Being great at something only means your character versus the game.

Gnomebarians only need training in Athletics + Rage and they don't need a Str past 14 (advantage str checks). They can climb o to a bigger creature and their wolf totem will stay active. Attack the creature (headbutt it to death?) to keep rage going. If an enemy spellcasters tries to command you? You have advantage on mental saves v magic.

Gnomes makes the perfect controlbarians.

No one's really bad in 5e. Point is, with any other race you could make something better.

[R.Shackleford]

No one's really bad in 5e. Point is, with any other race you could make something better.

Not really.

The wizard is a "haves" class. Which means it's effectiveness is mostly determined by its class features and not by outside forces such as racial choice or DM fiat (see wild blood and fighter).

This Necromancer is just as good with raising the dead as any other necromancer.

This wizard isn't far behind other wizards in term of DC. Hell, with how low monster saves are you won't actually notice a difference in then saving versus not saving. Seriously, enemy saves at level 1 - 10 are pretty sucky. And even then, just target bad saves (which is an in game/in world thing to do).

This wizard has Lightning resistance, lightning is a popular damage type from what I've seen over the years (DMs liking to use Lightning traps and monsters).

The Dragonborn Wizard is not a "worst race class combo" candidate as they perform spectacularly well.

This is mostly because the wizard class is such a powerhouse.

Strength based cleric, with cha skills works as a great cleric. There are entire builds that go Str, Con, and 12 or 14 wis. The dragon born fits right with these builds, especially when you go Cha skills.

[Ducks & Dragons]

I hate halflings because of Frodo and Sam, I hate those two suboptimal weaklings! Belkar is the only Halfling that I like and he is my favorite OotS character, even being a Halfling!

You do understand that a halfling ranger with levels in barbarian and crap wisdom is almost the literal definition of suboptimal, ESPECIALLY in 3.5, right?

right?

[JackPhoenix]

You do understand that a halfling ranger with levels in barbarian and crap wisdom is almost the literal definition of suboptimal, ESPECIALLY in 3.5, right?

right?

You do understand what thread necromancy is, right?

[ParticlePigeon]

A Human Moon Druid would be pretty terrible. Humans are pretty poor as-is, but they are even worse when their one trait (+1 to all abilities) is even less useful due to half of those abilities being replaced by the beast's abilities.

I play a moon druid human, and 1 increase can help tremendously if you are one point behind a increase in the mod. Overall, humans are one of the best races in the game, and having most the the shortcomings of a human (i.e. darkvision loss) taken on by a beast, human moon druids are quite capable. Any character can be viable, some better then others, but humans are above average no matter where you go.

[Roland St. Jude]

You do understand that a halfling ranger with levels in barbarian and crap wisdom is almost the literal definition of suboptimal, ESPECIALLY in 3.5, right?

right?Sheriff: Thread necromancy is disfavored here, as is this level of hostility.