Paladin, multiclass or NO

[JohnStone]

I will be joining an existing game very soon and have been asked to create an interesting character. by interesting i mean not just some build but an actual personality to go with it. I have lots of experience theory crafting but little experience at an actual table.

The basic build rules apply: Starting level 8*** 27 point buy, Hp max -Avg, All sources including Scag and UA.

Party Makeup:
Battlemaster fighter- dual wielding
Arcane trickster- just switched to Bow
Monk/Cleric- been told hes ranged?
Enchanter Wizard- im guessing God Style but who knows
*** note we rotate DMs so I assume 1 character will be missing or NPC at times.

So im thinking we need a Charisma Guy, a solid Tank, and some more divine magic...
Bring on the Paladin. However i am a theory crafter and going in Human Pally just feels weird. I have a few concepts in mind...

Aurich von Dragonkin: a Pally2/Dragonkin sorc6 (probably grab pally 4 eventually for an oath and an ASI) that relies on GFB to deal consistant lvl appropriate damage and has lots of fire spells and metamagic to deal serious damage. Personality would be like a Silver flame zealout.

Corellan Half-elven: A pally2-6 / Favored soul (WAR) that plays alot like a straight cleric or pally except he can smite like crazy and has spells like spirit guardians, Flamestrike, and haste. if i go 6 pally i overlap all the FS benefits but gain Aura of protection. Personality is a Freedom fighter Half elf that wants to prove he is honorable maybe like John Snow.

Dudley Do-right: A Paladin Bard(Lore) 6/2 or 5/3 leaning toward aura of protection and Cutting words, probably oath of the crown. lots of controlling here and serious buffing potential as i take more bard. personality is sort of silly pompous look at me i have a lot of charisma kind of guy...think Aqua Man from brave and bold.( not my favorite approach but thought id throw it out there)

the questions that come to mind for building are:
Extra Attack- if Sorc I dont need it GFB scales well though doesnt leave room for multiple modifiers like Hunters Mark or Improved divine Smite.
Improved Divine Smite: is it worth Pally 11. would be simple to go straight pally, especially with the corellon knight and would get me more ASI for feats. but loses out on spells and spell slots.

I would love feedback both on personality and build details if anyone is interested.

[Gastronomie]

As always, Paladin/Sorc is a wonderful combination, being able to work as both a caster and a warrior at the same time (Quickened Spell FTW) - as long as you ignore how it can easily eat through resources (all of which are recovered only on a long rest).

As for the main question of whether multiclassing is a good idea or not: Depends. I am a fan of the Paladin/Sorc so I prefer them, but pure Paladins are good too.

The truth is that Pure Paladin and Paladin/Sorcerer are, while similar, pretty different at what they can do. It's a problem of whether to make it "strong, stable, and firm" or "nova all the way + bigger drawer of arsenals".

Pure Paladin definitely has better damage per round, with Extra Attack before the Paladin/Sorc gets it, as well as how it gets Improved Divine Smite from level 11 and higher (if you're an Oathbreaker, you can also basically troll Bladelocks by getting Lifedrinker at level 7). He can also heal more with Lay On Hands, gets Aura of Protection at an earlier level, and so on. Of course you get more ASIs/Feats than a multiclass build. And finally, you mustn't forget the fact that a Paladin's Hit Die is d10, and thus, for every level of Sorcerer you take, you're decreasing your HP by 2 (gets better with Draconic Sorcerers).
As for his weaknesses, he has only a small number of spell slots, so though he is a martial nova (and it's a good thing), he can't go nova all day.

Paladin/Sorc's DPR lags behind the Pure Paladin, but it's still very respectable if you have the SCAG cantrips, and converting your high-level slots into Divine Smites (especially after you've paralyzed the enemy with Hold Person and is guranteed a Critical Hit) is the same thing as pressing the "I WIN" button. Though Lay On Hands becomes more of a final resort than something you can use every now and then in-between fights (or the occasional waking up an unconscious character), he can arguably heal better than the Pure Paladin if really required, by using up a high-level spell slot for Cure Wounds. Not that it's the best way to use his slots, but still a nice back-up resource.
I've used several Paladin/Sorc builds before. Most of their spells were not damage, but rather buff or control spells like Bless, Hold Person, Mirror Image, and so on, but the occasional bonus action Fireball is hell devastating. No matter what the enemy is like, you'll always have one or two techniques prepared. Picking up the Shield spell makes up for your low HP. And to make stuff better, Longsword/Rapier + Shield can increase your AC and make you stand a bit more firm.
As for the cons, due to how they get a smaller number of ASIs/Feats, as well as how War Caster is sorta mandatory for gish builds (you can go without it if you want, but it can occasionally get you into trouble), they're prone to getting their stats a bit lower than most Pure Paladins (this is one reason to go Sword and Board if you're optimizing - greatswords need GWM). Of course STR and CHA are important, but get your CON too low and you're gonna die pretty quickly (and also you can't concentrate on your yummy spells), so you need a good amount of all STR, CON and CHA. Or DEX instead of STR if you're a DEX build, but even in that case you need 13 STR to multiclass, so that's that. You really need high stats to make the most out of this build, but at the same time, the fact you get less ASIs than normal characters really tugs at your feet. You need to build pretty wisely. That's the first weakness.
But their another, and primary weakness is that every single ability they have uses up resources. Use up too much and you can run out of gas pretty quickly. Be it protecting yourself with the Shield spell, buffing your friends with Bless, or Holding People, or Fireballing people, or simply Smiting all day... sure, they have more resources than the Pure Paladin, but still it's not like they have an infinite supply of spell slots. Twinned Spell is fun, but you can run out of Sorcery Points faster than you think, so you need to convert slots into SP every now and then, making the slots even more precious.

Summing it up:

Sorta Stable V.S. Extreme Nova
Not all, but some of the Pure Paladin's core abilities, like Aura of Protection and Improved Divine Smite (that's at a high level but still) don't use up resources - they're constantly there. You can rely on them without worry of it running out. I suppose "having more ASIs and Feats" also belong in the "stuff that's constantly there".
Of course, this doesn't make Pure Paladins as "stable" as Fighters or Rogues that can constantly do what they do (because while they lack nova, they don't have many resources to spend in the first place). But still, not as eccentric a build as the Paladin/Sorc.
Compared to this, while the Paladin/Sorc can get temporary high AC with the Shield spell, and they can Smite like hell, all of his abilities are "expendable". The Paladin/Sorc has very little to no abilities that they can keep on using without thinking, unless it's the final boss battle. And their stats can get just a bit lower than normal Paladins, when in fact, they actually need higher stats to work as boss as much as possible.

Both are fun. I suggest you simply choose whichever you think is more fun to roleplay.

[Waazraath]

I think Gastronomie made a good and accurate assesment. Given the other characters in the party (1 dual wield fighter, rest caster / ranged), I also agree with the OP that a solid tank is welcome. Add those two together, and single class paladin seems the most logical to me: more hp, and I'd go sword & board with defense fighting style, don't bother too much with feats but use ASI's to increase ability scores. High hp, high AC, high charisma (which the party also lacks), and when needed nova damage from smites. Paladin / sorcerer and paladin / bard seems like nice builds as well, but more squishy, and less fitting with the rest of the party.

[djreynolds]

Gastronomie is correct. Paladin/sorcerer is awesome. The shield spell is down right game changing on a guy with a 20 AC who lacks a use for his reaction. And if they allow favored soul, simply awesome.

[Corran]

the questions that come to mind for building are:
Extra Attack- if Sorc I dont need it GFB scales well though doesnt leave room for multiple modifiers like Hunters Mark or Improved divine Smite.
You are right in that. With acess to GFB the extra attack loses some steam. However, the feature I feel you should be debating about keeping or losing, is not extra attack, but rather, aura of protection. Personaly I do not see much value in paladin 2 dips, as burning slots to smite is meh (albeit fun ime), unless maybe (and that is only a MAYBE) you can crit a lot. With your party primarily at a range (cleric/monk at range???), I dont know how much you will get out of aura of protection (especially since you most likely wont ever get the very significant aura improvements -paladin lvl 18), but the sure thing is that both you and the fighter are going to need it.


Improved Divine Smite: is it worth Pally 11. would be simple to go straight pally, especially with the corellon knight and would get me more ASI for feats. but loses out on spells and spell slots.
About IDS, well, that depends on how many melee attacks you deal per round. Are you taking the extra attack action (no scag cantrips)? Are you using your bonus action to attack (PAM or quicken)? Are you using your reaction to attack (sentinel, PAM, or soul of vengeance)? Will you be hasted a lot (self or by ally)? Generally for a paladorc it is a bit counterintuitive to aim for a good use of IDS and play at the strengths of his paladorc build at the same time. Add to that, that if you even get IDS it will be substancially later than level 11, and you reach to this conclusion (at least I do): If I am to play a paladin uninterupted up to at least level 11, and my build is focused to play to the strength of the paladin class (so that means at least PAM), then IDS is good. Good enough to not consider multiclassing out of paladin before 11? Well, that depends and there is no easy and definite answer, and it would really help if we had the whole idea of the build and a rough 20 level progression. But the main conclusion is, that for paladorcs, IDS is not a priority. Level 9 seems like a more reasonable cut-off point, though I can see arguments for all of 6,7,8, and 10.



A final note. The oath you will plan on taking for this character, determines to a great extent your build make up and your cut-off points. For example, if you are planning for oath of vengeance, then level 9 is the absolute minimum you should be aiming for, unless you were starting at a higher level or you had an ally who would hatste you regularly. Every level thereafter still offers something important (10 aura of courage, 11 IDS, 12,16,19 ASIs, 13,17 spells, 18 aura improvements, 20 capstone), but perhaps you could find value in some multiclass (provided you find an efficient way to replace at least the loss of SoV).

Anyway, rambling is over. If I have to leave you with a thought, is that the big paladin feature is not divine smite, but aura of protection. If you want a small dip, maybe fighter is a bit better (if ofc it can fit your rp expectations).



Corellan Half-elven: A pally2-6 / Favored soul (WAR)
From the little I have thought of this, war is actually one of the worse domains (although thematically appropriate) to slap onto a paladin basis. That is because as a paladorc you will have all of your options for concentration covered by the spell list of paladin and sorcerer (mainly from the sorcerer). War domain gives you too many concentration spells that wont see any real use. My suggestion is to pick another domain (one with much less concentration and more utility spells instead), if you follow that route. My real suggestion is to not actually combine paladin (or any other martial) with FS, as most of the FS features are nullified (FS has some value for pure sorc builds and perhaps for other types of multiclass, such as rogue/sorc, but has near no value -compared to other sorcerer origins- for a paladorc or fighter/sorc).


[B]Corellan Half-elven....... Personality is a Freedom fighter Half elf that wants to prove he is honorable maybe like John Snow.
You got the race right...!:smalltongue:

Edit:


Party Makeup:
Battlemaster fighter- dual wielding
Arcane trickster- just switched to Bow
Monk/Cleric- been told hes ranged?
Enchanter Wizard- im guessing God Style but who knows
*** note we rotate DMs so I assume 1 character will be missing or NPC at times.

If the DM is willing to play along with a lack of battlefield control from the frontliners (though you have some soft control in warcaster and BB), due to how the party is set up (ie too many ranged chars), then I suggest a paladin 9-10/ sorcerer X (/warlock 1-2, as a relatively late investment) build, with progression paladin4 (grab warcaster) ---> sorcerer 3 (spam blur and shield on top of a minimum of 21 AC -defense fighting style) ---> paladin 7 (aura of protection and aura of warding, ancients, quicken and extend metamagic), and then advance according to your needs (paladin 9 is good for the spells and the feat -boost charisma, sorcerer for more spells slots and faster spell progression, finally once you have some high enough spell slots -level 5 minimum I would say, take 1 or 2 warlock levels -possibly 1 is enough- for access to armor of agathys and some more shield castings per short rest).

If your DM is not doing you any favors, and pays a serious mind to battlefield control, then you need to be able to hold off the enemies from your squishies, in that case sentinel is highly recommended. I would go with a PAM sentinel oathbreaker (no multiclass), with emphasis on charisma for a good mileage out of dreadful aspect. Take a reach weapon (halberd or glaive). Wrathful smite and animate dead will be your friends too.
Alternatively, an ancients paly with PAM and sentinel with a quarterstaff and a shield might also do the trick (again, prioritize chrisma over strength), though my money is on the oathbreaker, mainly due to how I prefer dreadful aspect over nature's wrath.

[djreynolds]

Mr Corran I thought you were supposed to write a guide to paladin/sorcerer.

[Gastronomie]

Mr Corran I thought you were supposed to write a guide to paladin/sorcerer.Is this true? I was thinking of writing one but decided it was too time-consuming, but if someone else is gonna write one I'm interested.

[JellyPooga]

Single Class Paladin 8 is a good starting point to multiclass from, IMO. You've got 2 ASI's, Extra Attack, two Oath features (inc. the awesome Aura of Warding if you go Ancients), Aura of Protection and 2nd level casting with a "Caster Level" of 4, not to mention a decent pool of HP.

Whatever you add to this gravy is down to personal taste;

- Salt : This is the "standard" option of either sticking to Paladin or adding another melee Class; Fighter usually to accent your nova damage, but TWF Ranger works too for the extra attacks.

- Moar Meat! : Drop a few chunks of Barbarian into the sauce and watch that Tank flavour come through. Druid can also replicate this effect, though you'll want to ask your GM about smiting in Wild Shape.

- Cinnamon : This spice is exotic, but not totally unexpected in this day and age. Sorcerer, Bard and Warlock are all completely solid additions to a Paladin 8, for all the reasons that have been discussed to the nth degree. Both Sorcerer and Bard immediately grant you access to 3rd level spell slots at 9th; not great compared to a full-caster, but you've already pulled ahead of EK's and AT's and will soon pull ahead of other Paladins and Rangers. Warlock has some nice tricks.

- Cayenne : Spicy and exotic, but not to everyone's taste, Cayenne multiclassing is pretty much everything else; Cleric, Wizard, Monk and Rogue. Due to multiclassing restrictions and focal Ability Scores of the Classes, these are particularly MAD. On the other hand, they can offer some exciting boons; Abjurer or Necromancer Wizards are surprisingly tanky in melee and they have some nice non-concentration self-buffs. Cleric offers good Domain abilities (including some solid Smites that stack with your PAlly ones) and more spellcasting (both frequency and versatility) than a Paladin is used to. Monk and Rogue buck the system a little and encourage a more Dex-based Paladin, but it can work surprisingly well if you get it right.

[Corran]

Mr Corran I thought you were supposed to write a guide to paladin/sorcerer.

Is this true? I was thinking of writing one but decided it was too time-consuming, but if someone else is gonna write one I'm interested.
Yes, I was considering doing so some time ago. But I found it very difficult to do it objectively, as when thinking of paladin/sorcerer combinations, I always end up with a very defensive approach, so I would end up writing a massively controversial post about how I think this multiclass plays to its strengths when S&B'ing and utilizing defensive buffs, and that wouldn't be of any use to anyone I think. Especially since there is already a subclass that can do that (EK) and we already have guides for that. The truth though is, that the more I thought of paladin/sorcerer builds, the more I started losing confidence in them (dont get me wrong, they are very versatile builds and it is generally a powerful multiclass), and started to value more singleclass builds, as I am very wary of builds with tricky resource management (TPK's due to bad resource management tend to change your perspective:smalltongue:). In short, digging deeper into the potential of this multiclass, made me to like it less than I did initially, so I rarely look back to such paladin/sorcerer builds.
Searching through my dnd folder, I found a reply to an old thread. Ofc the ideas presented there are hardly exclusively mine, I more or less pieced together the answers of different posters to present the main benefits, the way I see it, of such a multiclass. It's far from a guide, but that was the best I could do:1) good AC + blur + shield

The higher the AC, the better the synergy (less shield spamming, blur typically works better with high AC's). Playing as S&B works better with this combo, and generally works better with paladorcs, though it requires warcaster. But then again you will take warcaster either way, as it is one of the most optimal feats for tanky paladorcs. Suggestion is to play S&B, take defense as your fighting style, for an AC of 21 without any magic items (if you play with magic items, S&B becomes even better as you can additionally increase your AC by having a magical shield). Use this if you have to tank really hard, especially if you are tanking alone. Available as soon as paladin1/sorcerer4 (for warcaster), though you might want to delay it if you want to take the paladin auras first. You can make up for the lack of blur by using shield of faith (bonus action), or bless (a fantastic spell). Use shield of faith if you are taking the vast majority of the hits, use bless otherwise (especially if you have heavy hitters and no other source of bless).


2) warcaster + BB

Essentially the alternative option to sentinel. And for a paladorc it is strictly better. If you were a single class paly, sentinel (combined with polearm master) would be a no brainer. For you though, it is warcaster and BB. Make the enemies pay dearly if they want to escape your reach. The benefits of warcaster are so massively important for this build, that you simply cannot afford not to take it. If you dont, then I suggest not playing a S&B paladorc. Available as soon as paladin4/sorcerer1 (or paladin 4 if you get BB from your race), or as soon as paladin1/sorcerer4. Either way, you have it online by level 5, when BB powers up, so you are set.


3) Quickened spell

Choose this metamagic when you take your 3rd sorcerer level. Use it with: a) self-buffs (eg blur), b) debuffs (eg hold person, preferably using a higher level slot for multiple targets), c) nova (eg GFB).


4) Auras

Aura of protection is an amazing class feature. So is aura of warding. Hence since you are an OoA paladin, you want at least 7 paladin levels for those two amazing auras.



Where do all of the above leave you?

You are a paladin7/sorcerer3. You start as a paladin for the proficiencies and the starting hit points, and the only feat you have so far is warcaster (from paladin 4). If started as variant human, or if you followed a different progression, eg paladin1 -> sorcerer 4 -> paladin7) then you have more feats/ASI's, though in the latter case you are a paladin//sorcerer4 and you delayed your auras effectively by 1 level, for getting features in an order not that beneficial (unless you play in a heavily ranged group where you do all the tanking). But I will talk about leve progression in more detail later.

The point is that you are a paladin7/sorcerer3. How do you advance?
I suggest you take 2 paladin levels, to become paladin9/sorcerer3. That gets your 3rd level paladin spells. This is extremelly important if your party lacks healing. Revivify and aura of vitality is all you need. Revivify takes care of (recently) dead allies at the cost of an action (remember, you can always quicken it), and aura of vitality....


5) Extend spell + aura of vitality

Heal a total of 140 hit points at the cost of a 3rd level spell slot and one sorcery point. You have to pick extend spell as your second metamagic from the sorcerer. Superb out of combat healing. You can use it during combat too if you like, as it takes only a bonus action to heal, though I suggest sticking with another concentration spell during combat and just use your lay on hands if you really need to heal someone. Still, you have a rediculously large pool of healing to keep a whole expedition force going encounter after encounter for days without long rest (dying from exhaustion is more likely than dying from loss of hit points). At this point (paladin9/sorcerer3) you have three 3rd level spell slots and one 4th level spell slot, more than enough as using aura of vitality goes. Expect these spell slots to grow rapidly, as now we will start adding sorcerer levels.


6) Spell slots

Paladorcs typically have more spell slots than paladins. More spell slots mean more smiting (among other and potentially more optimal stuff), and more smiting means more fun! Seriously, expect the increased spell slots to come very handy.


7) Elemental weapon + elemental afinity

You are a paladin9/sorcerer3, who tanks and fights in melee. At paladin level 9, you got access to the spell elemental weapon. Since you are already sorcerer 3, it seems a waste not to take another 3 sorcerer levels (dragon, choose fire or thunder). Sorcerer 6 (dragon) gives you elemental afinity, which you can use in conjuction with elemental weapon, extra attack and quickening the appropriate cantrip (BB if you chose thunder dragon, GFB for fire). This is your damage strategy. And you will deal tons of it. Just proceed from paladin9/sorcerer3 to paladin9/sorcerer6.


8)Improved divine smite

Since you are already paladin 9, you can take 2 more paladin levels for improved divine smite (you grab aura of courage along the way). Maybe you want to go paladin11/sorcerer3 before reaching sorcerer6.


Where does that leave us?
We are a paladin11/sorcerer6.
You can grab another sorcerer level for 4th level sorcerer spells. Greater invisibility works well with any gish build, as in your case it will make you tank better (disadvantage on incoming attacks) and will increase your damage (advantage on your attacks). Consider it a better version of blur in your case.


Generally, paladin7/sorcerer3 will make you a solid tank.
Paladin9/sorcerer3 will add tons of healing (aura of vitality, revivify).
Paladin11 adds to your damage (IDS). Works with OA's as well, good for a tank.
Sorcerer6 (dragon) adds a lot to your damage (elemental afinity + elemental weapon).
Sorcerer 7 gets you some very good spells (greater invisibility is a very good and all-around use of your concentration).
If you want extra tankiness and damage, add 1 level of warlock for armor of agathys. Then cast this spell with your highest spell slot if you expect to fight in melee. Even use blade ward (cantrip) if you expect a lot of incoming hits (that means that you are not concentrating on blur or greater invisibility, and that you will not cast shield with your reaction, you want to be hit) during that round. Quicken can help you with this strategy.

The trick is to see what your party needs and then progress in levels accordingly.


A general level progression I have in mind (change it as appropiate to suit your party's needs), is:
1. Paladin1 ---> AC 20
2. Paladin2 ---> AC 21, use bless or shield of faith for concentration
3. Paladin3
4. Paladin4 ---> warcaster
5. Sorcerer1 ---> use BB or GFB instead of attack action, shield, your OA's just powered up
6. Sorcerer2
7. Sorcerer3 ---> quicken and extend, use blur as concentration (bless can stii be useful though)
8. Paladin5 ---> use attack action unless you can trigger the secondary effect of GFB
9. Paladin6 ---> aura of protection
10. Paladin7 ---> aura of warding
11. Paladin8
12. Paladin9 ---> revivify, aura of vitality, elemental weapon (save it for later, you still prefer blur or bless)
13. Sorcerer4
14. Sorcerer5
15. Sorcerer6 ---> elemental afinity + elemental weapon for when you want to deal a heck load of damage
16. Paladin10
17. Paladin11 ---> improved divine smite
18. Warlock1 ---> armor of agathys (at this point you have 6th level spell slots)
19. Sorcerer7 (greater invisibility among other things)
20. Sorcerer8 (for more sorcery points)

For levels 2-6 use shield of faith or bless as your concentration spell.
For levels 7-14, start using blur as your concentration (bless remains a good alternative). Use your spell slots for which you dont know any spells, for smiting or to upcast hold person (preferably with quicken).
At level 9 you gain aura of vitality, preferably use it between combats with extend metamagic.
At level 15 you can use elemental weapon with your concentrtion, if you want to go all offensive. Blur and bless reamin good alternatives for your concentration use. Remember, it is good to have many different options, different battles require different strategies.
Level 18 gives you armor of agathys (no concentration). Use to make the most difficult melee fights seem like a piece of cake.

Edit: I keep forgeting wrathful smite, it is an excellent 1st level paladin spell.
Edit2: If by any chance you continue playing past 15th level, you could always skip that warlock level for one extra paladin level for an extra ASI (thus allowing both str and cha to be 20), or an extra sorcerer level (for one more sorcery point and 5th level sorcerer spells once you hit level 20 - some good options in there).

Edit 3: I am still puzzled about which feat you should take if you start with variant human (be careful of the lack of darkvision). Lucky seems like the best choice. Mounted combat might be a good investment for when you get access to higher level slots (spell level start increasing dramatically fast at the second half of your career), if your DM will let you summon better mounts if you cast find steed with a higher level spell slot. And if you like mounted combat ofc.
ps: I think I have not used RAW elemental afinity in the above build though.
ps2: Now I re-read this after some time, I am not sure how good of an idea is to go all the way to paladin 11 for IDS. Or even if we end up taking 11 levels in paladin, how important it would be to prioritize the 11th paladin level over sorcerer and/or warlock.

[Sir cryosin]

Hi op! Ok so I'm a fan of mc most of my characters have been mc about 95% of them. So if you are going paladin don't mc till after lv 8. Last night we were fighting Strahd and the paladins aura was nice for everyone he didn't event need to roll for concentration checks because with his aura he rolled a 1 and still made checks. Anyway I feel for paladins should not mc to later lvs even then I still don't think it good they get so much cool things.

[BiPolar]

Hi op! Ok so I'm a fan of mc most of my characters have been mc about 95% of them. So if you are going paladin don't mc till after lv 8. Last night we were fighting Strahd and the paladins aura was nice for everyone he didn't event need to roll for concentration checks because with his aura he rolled a 1 and still made checks. Anyway I feel for paladins should not mc to later lvs even then I still don't think it good they get so much cool things.

This is my general belief was well, although Gastronomie's post really does give an excellent pro/con for it. Personally, I'm not as big of a fan of MC because I generally like the class progression within your main classes and don't like delaying it (even for those bonuses.) With paladin, as has been said, it's extremely true. Do you really want to delay those auras, extra attacks, vows, etc. etc? But it also depends on your own character fluff and how you want to play it.

[Specter]

War Favored Soul makes a fantastic combo, and even gives you extra attack. You'll also get good spells like Crusader's Mantle much sooner. And Metamagic for those quickened GFB and BB, oh yeah.

[Fuzzy Logic]

So I've had a little conundrum rolling around in my head and wanted to ask the playground, this seems like the right thread for it, if it's too off topic just ignore this post.
I'm struggling with the multiclass option for my paladin as well. He's a dragonborn with high str and cha and GWM, devotion paladin. So my conundrum is whether to go paladin 6/sorceror 14 or paladin 12/sorceror 8. I wanted sorceror 14 originally for the Dragon wings which I just found to be a cool mental image, but my dm gave me wings of flying in our last quest so now I'm not sure what to do. I'm tempted by IDS on the paladin 12 build, but the higher level sorceror gives me more sorc points for quickened and twinned buffs and heals, and more spell slots for smiting. Can anyone offer advice?

[Gastronomie]

@Corran: The ideas presented seem pretty interesting. Especially "Extended Spell" + "Aura of Vitality" - this sort of stuff is genius.

Your build has more Paladin levels than the Paladin/Sorcs I've been using, and as you say, it seems similar to an Eldritch Knight - "using spells to make you a better martial character". But it seems more versatile and even more tanky than EK, especially with all the healing that EKs don't get.

My build (sorta explained in my first post) was more geared towards being a gish, with heavy investment in Sorcerer. It's a matter of my personal preference, but I wanted my characters to be "good at melee" and "be powerful casters" at the same time, so that they can always be effective and strong (for this reason my favorite classes are the Paladin/Sorc and the Fighter-dip Bladelock). I never actually thought of what sort of build will be created if you focused more levels on Paladin, so your ideas seem really fresh and fascinating for me.
I'm struggling with the multiclass option for my paladin as well. He's a dragonborn with high str and cha and GWM, devotion paladin. So my conundrum is whether to go paladin 6/sorceror 14 or paladin 12/sorceror 8. I wanted sorceror 14 originally for the Dragon wings which I just found to be a cool mental image, but my dm gave me wings of flying in our last quest so now I'm not sure what to do. I'm tempted by IDS on the paladin 12 build, but the higher level sorceror gives me more sorc points for quickened and twinned buffs and heals, and more spell slots for smiting. Can anyone offer advice?What's your current level? Depends on that a bit. But since it seems like your idea is similar to mine (pretty good at spellcasting too), I suggest 6/14. If you can think up an excuse and feel it's thematic for your character, dipping Warlock for 6/11/3 is another valid idea, but that really depends on what your character is like (and it makes you miss even more ASIs).
Higher levels in Sorcerer means a lot more of both Spell Slots and Sorcery Points, which can be used for all sorts of purposes like Shielding, Blessing, Smiting, Fireballing, Hasting, and so on. The only real sweets you get from Devotion Paladin levels 7 to 12 are the level 3 Paladin spells and Improved Divine Smite, which I consider generally inferior to the goodies the Sorcerer carries along (yes, depending on the campaign, not getting charmed or frightened is useful, but they're situational - and I doubt they'll come up as often as simply smiting with Sorcerer slots).
Of course, this is just my idea, but I think Paladin/Sorcs would have sucked enough sweeties from the Paladin part at level 6, or 7, depending on the oath.

[Fuzzy Logic]

I'm level 6, but leveling up so it's decision time. I'll probably leave the warlock dip out, short rest smites and eb are awesome, but I don't think it fits this character thematically and I'd miss the ASI's too much. Thank you very much for your advice, and I think on balance you're right. The 1D8 bonus at will damage doesn't really balance out against high level spell slots and bonus action spells. Thanks again!

[R.Shackleford]

I'm level 6, but leveling up so it's decision time. I'll probably leave the warlock dip out, short rest smites and eb are awesome, but I don't think it fits this character thematically and I'd miss the ASI's too much. Thank you very much for your advice, and I think on balance you're right. The 1D8 bonus at will damage doesn't really balance out against high level spell slots and bonus action spells. Thanks again!

ASIs aren't really all that important, especially for a Paladin.

To keep up with the game you need a 16 up until about level 8 or 12, depending on what your DM throws at you. By level 12 you should really have an 18. That is all you will ever need based on the AC of monsters, especially if you will have access to Bless and a source of advantage.

Most of your damage comes from your Smite. Your Strength (unless you are going Dex which works too) should start at 16 so at level 4 or 8 you boost that ASI once.

Your Charisma... You don't really need to boost it all that much. You will either be using buffs or using your slots for smite. You will want a +2 or +3 in this so that you can add it to your other saves.

Constitution is fine starting and ending at a +2. You have enough healing, and +Cha to saves, that you don't need to boost it.

So on a Paladin 8 you have one ASI free for a feat, if you are allowed to take them.

The main reason not to multiclass Warlock would be all the sweet sweet class features that the Paladin gets. Aura of Courage at 10 is sweet. But if you are going to MC I would take Paladin to 7 (Sacred Oath Feature) and then never look back (unless you want a feat and then Paladin 8).

Honestly my favorite multiclass with the Paladin is Rogue (many ways to fluff this, I like the idea that a paladin spent enough time doing charity that he picked up a few things like Thieves Cant and such) and Wild Sorcerer. Warlock is great but you don't really change much (EB is about the only real change in the character).


Paladin (Vengeance) 8/Rogue 2/Sorcerer (Wild) 10 was a build I played in a one shot. When I used a smite spell I ended up having illusionary butterflies and flower petals flutter all around me for 10 minutes... But then next time I rolled a 33... Max damage on a spell I cast? Yes. Lots of fun.

[Gastronomie]

Warlock is great but you don't really change much (EB is about the only real change in the character).Eh, Eldritch Blast isn't that important for Paladin/Sorcs that already have other ranged methods of attack (hell, a Javelin would be better in terms of damage). Apart from the level 2 slots that recharge on a short rest (MOAR SMITIN'), the main thing is the Pact Boon and the Eldritch Invocations.

Chain gives you an awesome Familiar, and Magic Resistance as well.
If the party lacks a Ritualist, you can become one with Tome + Book of Ancient Secrets.
Devil's Sight + Darkness is somewhat hackneyed but strong nonetheless.
Fiendish Vigor gives you 8 temporary HP in-between every single battle, which can help you get much better at tanking (your HP is lower than normal tanks, remember?)
Mask of Many Faces and Misty Visions open up new RP potential.

No room here for Agonizing. Perhaps Repelling could be useful for pushing enemies off cliffs or sending them into Black Tentacles/Wall of Fire/Insect Plague/whatever areas though.

Pact of the Archfey also gives you Faerie Fire, one of the strongest low-level spells in the game. Does compete with Bless, so not something you can take without thinking, but still quite powerful.

But it all depends on whether the character is the type who makes pacts in the first place.

[Mandragola]

I’ve got a level 11 oath of vengeance paladin. I’ve played from level 1 as a variant human with GWM. I’ve often considered multiclassing, and I’m actually considering it again now for myself. But my experience of playing the character is that there’s always some cool thing on offer on the next level, which has kept me in the paladin class. That does kind of change after improved divine smite, and action surge is starting to look very appealing.

So ordinarily I’d say go straight paladin, and mainly I’d be talking about the importance of the second attack. You get a whole bunch of cool stuff as a paladin – notably that attack, your +cha to save aura and whatever your oath gave you at level 7. You’d have access to 40 points worth of lay on hands, which is a great tool to cure poison and diseases as well as the most powerful one-action heal anyone gets before Heal at level 11. And you’d have 20 strength probably too from your two ASIs.

You’d also be looking forward to 3rd level spells (aura of vitality in particular is an incredibly powerful ooc heal), then fearless aura and improved divine smite at level 11.

But UA content changes that. Level 8 is just when a paladin 2/favoured soul 6 kicks in, with your second attack. So it’s kind of a valid option, where otherwise I’d say a level 8 melee character without two attacks was a non-starter.

To be fair, this is why my group doesn’t use UA. The rules just are not balanced. Favoured soul is probably the worst offender of all of these in the number of features you get for free from other classes. I can’t blame you for using it if you can though. It also kind of works for RP purposes for a paladin’s god to imbue him with tons of magical power, rather than having him continue to bash things.

Personally I still prefer single-class paladin though, for a tank. Your party will love you if you bring +cha to their saves and either devotion or ancients oaths. You get more hit points and that massive Lay on Hands hit. Your party already has a wizard to cover the “God” role.

Tanks struggle with casting, because they have a shield bound to one arm (which requires an action to remove) and something sharp in the other hand, which makes it much harder to cast counterspell or shield. Concentration is still a problem too.

Hit points are also a really big deal, and all things being equal a single-class paladin will have 12 more of them than a paladin 2/sorceror 6.

Overall your front line will have a lot more staying power if you have more hp, +cha to saves, immunity to charm or resistance to magic, and eventually immunity to fear. The favoured soul will have a few more smites per day and some metamagic tricks, but single-class paladins are seriously powerful characters.

[Citan]

I will be joining an existing game very soon and have been asked to create an interesting character. by interesting i mean not just some build but an actual personality to go with it. I have lots of experience theory crafting but little experience at an actual table.

The basic build rules apply: Starting level 8*** 27 point buy, Hp max -Avg, All sources including Scag and UA.

Party Makeup:
Battlemaster fighter- dual wielding
Arcane trickster- just switched to Bow
Monk/Cleric- been told hes ranged?
Enchanter Wizard- im guessing God Style but who knows
*** note we rotate DMs so I assume 1 character will be missing or NPC at times.

So im thinking we need a Charisma Guy, a solid Tank, and some more divine magic...
Bring on the Paladin. However i am a theory crafter and going in Human Pally just feels weird. I have a few concepts in mind...

I would love feedback both on personality and build details if anyone is interested.
Hi! ;)

Honestly, I'm gonna surprise myself because I'm always very fond of multiclass characters but...
If you have any chance of reaching lvl 20, keep Paladin straight. The capstones for all Oaths are very good (I'm particularly fan of the Ancients one though).

Otherwise, I agree with Gastronomie post. ;)
Paladin 6/7 and either Sorcerer or Bard are extremely fun to play.
Considering you will have a Trickster with many illusions spells, a Cleric for the basic buffs, and an Enchanter Wizard for control spells,
I'd be tempted to make the balance weigh in favor of the Paladin / Sorcerer combination. You can cherry-pick a few control spells to complement Wizard if you want while also blasting your way through or just using your spells slots to smite. With Metamagic bringing flexibility in addition, it is one solid and very versatile build.

[Gastronomie]

But UA content changes that. Level 8 is just when a paladin 2/favoured soul 6 kicks in, with your second attack. So it’s kind of a valid option, where otherwise I’d say a level 8 melee character without two attacks was a non-starter.Favored Soul is cool and strong and all that, but losing Aura of Protection can be painful, so it's sort of a trade-off. Together with the fact that a lot of the cleric spells overlap with the Paladin or Sorcerer lists, it's not always the ideal choice for a Paladin/Sorc (not that it's a bad one).

[Mandragola]

Favored Soul is cool and strong and all that, but losing Aura of Protection can be painful, so it's sort of a trade-off. Together with the fact that a lot of the cleric spells overlap with the Paladin or Sorcerer lists, it's not always the ideal choice for a Paladin/Sorc (not that it's a bad one).

Agreed, though I stand by my belief that any martial character should get two attacks as soon as they can. Even favoured soul isn't clearly superior to a single-class paladin - it's a trade-off of spell slots vs aura of protection etc.

Your original post above actually makes a lot of the same points that I was trying to in my own. I took ages drafting my own post!

[Corran]

@Corran: The ideas presented seem pretty interesting. Especially "Extended Spell" + "Aura of Vitality" - this sort of stuff is genius.
Yep, totally not my idea. Kudos go to the person in my signature:smallsmile:


Your build has more Paladin levels than the Paladin/Sorcs I've been using, and as you say, it seems similar to an Eldritch Knight - "using spells to make you a better martial character". But it seems more versatile and even more tanky than EK, especially with all the healing that EKs don't get.

My build (sorta explained in my first post) was more geared towards being a gish, with heavy investment in Sorcerer.....
Well, upon re-reading this old thread reply after some time, I am puzzled myself why I recommended going all the way to paladin 11. Perhaps I was too caught up in the dpr calculations of the build at the very high levels. Upon rethinking the whole thing, I would say that the minimum cut-off point should be no lower than 6 (for aura of protection), or probably 7 in the case of ancients (for aura of warding), and then you have to decide if the level 3 paladin spells are worth grabbing (ie check if your party can cover for you not getting paladin 3rd level spells). So paladin 9/ sorcerer 11 would work just fine. Though I do like the idea of one warlock level at the later stages for armor of agathys, so even something like paladin 6/ warlock 1/ sorcerer 13 would be very good imo too.


I’ve got a level 11 oath of vengeance paladin. I’ve played from level 1 as a variant human with GWM. I’ve often considered multiclassing, and I’m actually considering it again now for myself. But my experience of playing the character is that there’s always some cool thing on offer on the next level, which has kept me in the paladin class. That does kind of change after improved divine smite, and action surge is starting to look very appealing.
........

I hope you wont mind if I pop in to offer some suggestions.
Since you are 11 levels vengeance paly with GWM already, I would suggest going all the way to at least 15 for soul of vengeance. It is trully a great feature for when your vow of enmity is up, as it can give you a reactionary attack against your target of vow of enity. And with GWM and IDS in play this is huge. Most importantly, getting a reactionary attack from a feature, ie at no feat expense, is very very good. With vow of enmity and haste up (it makes sense to use haste with vow of enmity up, as you want to get that extra attack when you have advantage, that is when it counts the most), that is 4 attacks per turn against the VoE target, all of which have advatage, and you spam GWM and IDS on top of them all. Many attacks with advantage means critical hits, ie timme to use one of your divine smits for double effect.
Two more suggestions. First, take resilient con. You need it in order to maintain haste. Losing haste is ugly, but if you can make using it safe (via resilient con), that can be very rewarding with vow of enmity, IDS and GWM in play.
Secondly, and last but not least, grab PAM (if you really want to have a greatsword, and you dont want or you are not allowed at refluffing then dont grab it). PAM not only adds one more attack (which again, with GWM and IDS, it is big), making it a total of 5 attacks per turn when vow of enmity, haste and soul of vengeance are all up, but also it makes having and using GWM when vow of enmity is NOT up, a viable choice. Meaning that a vengeance paly is not a very good base for GWM when VoE is not available. PAM greatly mitigates that fact.

[Mandragola]

I hope you wont mind if I pop in to offer some suggestions.
Since you are 11 levels vengeance paly with GWM already, I would suggest going all the way to at least 15 for soul of vengeance. It is trully a great feature for when your vow of enmity is up, as it can give you a reactionary attack against your target of vow of enity. And with GWM and IDS in play this is huge. Most importantly, getting a reactionary attack from a feature, ie at no feat expense, is very very good. With vow of enmity and haste up (it makes sense to use haste with vow of enmity up, as you want to get that extra attack when you have advantage, that is when it counts the most), that is 4 attacks per turn against the VoE target, all of which have advatage, and you spam GWM and IDS on top of them all. Many attacks with advantage means critical hits, ie timme to use one of your divine smits for double effect.
Two more suggestions. First, take resilient con. You need it in order to maintain haste. Losing haste is ugly, but if you can make using it safe (via resilient con), that can be very rewarding with vow of enmity, IDS and GWM in play.
Secondly, and last but not least, grab PAM (if you really want to have a greatsword, and you dont want or you are not allowed at refluffing then dont grab it). PAM not only adds one more attack (which again, with GWM and IDS, it is big), making it a total of 5 attacks per turn when vow of enmity, haste and soul of vengeance are all up, but also it makes having and using GWM when vow of enmity is NOT up, a viable choice. Meaning that a vengeance paly is not a very good base for GWM when VoE is not available. PAM greatly mitigates that fact.

Yeah I do think I'll stick with paladin. For one, it just suits my character for him to stick to his path. There are some classes (like fighters and rogues, for instance) for whom multiclassing has no real RP issues, but for a paladin it does feel a bit like they are abandoning the path they are sworn to, which would be odd. And anyway, there's always destructive wave and a pretty funky capstone to aim for. Soul of Vengeance will be great, I'm sure.

I've tried haste and it really hasn't worked for me at all. I do get hit a lot (there's something about being hit with a greatsword that monsters seem to find annoying) and I fail concentration fairly often. That's not ok! If our wizard is around to cast haste on me that's another deal. My 3rd level slots mainly get spent on aura of vitality, and occasionally on revivify (smite first, ask questions later...). Second level ones go on misty step, firsts on smites or occasionally hunter's mark.

I could spend feats on making me less likely to mess up my concentration rolls, but honestly I think I'm better off just raising stats at this point. I've got 16 cha and 14 con and both of those could do with a boost, especially since I now have a theoretical charisma cap of 22, thanks to a very interesting book I read. This would annoy our bard, which is an end in itself. It would also improve all my saves, and everyone else's, which probably beats improving my own con save.

PAM is a tricky one. Basically I rate it somewhat less than a lot of people, for two reasons. First, I find I use my bonus action on other stuff a lot of the time. Misty step, channel divinity, GWM bonus attacks and hunter's mark all use bonus actions - to the point I tend not to bother with hunter's mark except on bosses, and only the round after channel divinity goes up. Adding another thing that eats my bonus actions just wouldn't work for me I think. One day I imagine I might even cast a smite spell - you never know.

Second reason is that after 11 levels I've never seen a magic polearm, and only ever one two-hander! I'm seriously starting to think that the guy who usually DMs for us has something against paladins with two-handers, and thinks we should all go sword and board for some reason. In evidence of this I present the Sword of Kas, which my character literally owns and was briefly attuned to (to find out what it did - bad things lol). He hasn't actually used it in combat, and right now it's brooding in a portable hole.

This is a shame, because it would be awesome for a vengeance paladin to have an incredibly powerful evil sentient sword bound to his will (or possibly trying to subvert him to its will). Classic fantasy stuff there. But most classic fantasy stories don't include a downside that nobody can sleep within 300' of the cursed sword, and this particular downside has seen the SoK put in storage. It might come out again if the cult of vecna we're hunting get hold of the hand and eye.

[Gastronomie]

Man, that is awesome. Too bad about the detrimental properties... >Owns Sword of Kas

Pure Paladin does its job quite well, simply sticking to it would be still a pretty good option IMO.

[Gastronomie]

I'm actually now thinking of writing a Paladin/Sorcerer guide.

Would anyone like to help?

[Citan]

I'm actually now thinking of writing a Paladin/Sorcerer guide.

Would anyone like to help?
Hey, sure, PM me if you'd like. I have some bits here and there on the topic.

[Gastronomie]

Hey, sure, PM me if you'd like. I have some bits here and there on the topic.Thanks~~!!

[WereRabbitz]

Thanks~~!!

Not sure how much Help I could be, but i'd be anxious to read it!

Seems if you want Paladin 12 / Sorc 8 would be easy enough build.


Buff Progression
Bless > Blur > Haste

Feats:
Shield Mastery = Shove + Attack + Attack + Hasted Attack later on
PAM = Attack + Attack + Bonus Attack + Hasted Attack Later on

Level 3 is one of Paladin's good spell levels and with the Metamagic feats you could really make it shine.

I like the Dragon Sorc / Ancient Paladin since you end up with High AC & excellent Magic Resist makes you very hard to kill.

Only thing that keeps me thinking that PAM > Shield Mastery is that I wouldn't need Warcaster if I have a Polearm I can hold in one hand while I cast right?

[Gastronomie]

IMO War Caster is mandatory for Paladin/Sorcs regardless of whether you can cast spells with Somatic components or not. Losing concentration on Bless is a tragedy.

(BTW, writing first part of the guide... bad news is that the first part explaining the pros and cons of Paladin/Sorcs is already 20 pages long on Word... the hell am I writing? And will people even read it? If anyone wants to proofread I could send it, but...)

[Citan]

IMO War Caster is mandatory for Paladin/Sorcs regardless of whether you can cast spells with Somatic components or not. Losing concentration on Bless is a tragedy.

(BTW, writing first part of the guide... bad news is that the first part explaining the pros and cons of Paladin/Sorcs is already 20 pages long on Word... the hell am I writing? And will people even read it? If anyone wants to proofread I could send it, but...)

Hey, let's make a deal. I read you text and you read my homebrew! (beware, that's a very unbalanced deal for you, I'm much worse in terms of heavy-writing:smallbiggrin:) XD


(Let's be honest: I will help you either way, but I just had to make the joke ,))

[Fuzzy Logic]

I'm not sure what use I'd be, but I'd like to help too if possible.

[Gastronomie]

Thanks guys~!

I actually edited an old thread to include a draft of the guide, so if anyone is interested and wants to read, I'll PM you the link.

[WereRabbitz]

IMO War Caster is mandatory for Paladin/Sorcs regardless of whether you can cast spells with Somatic components or not. Losing concentration on Bless is a tragedy.

(BTW, writing first part of the guide... bad news is that the first part explaining the pros and cons of Paladin/Sorcs is already 20 pages long on Word... the hell am I writing? And will people even read it? If anyone wants to proofread I could send it, but...)


A 16 or 18 Con + Protection Aura will get you a +7-10 bonus to Saves. That should be enough since your hard to hit Martial wise and take half damage from magic.