Bad experiences with wizards

[weckar]

Due to some poor decisions and worse builds, the group I am currently in refuses to play anything with arcane magic as they think it is underpowered compared to divine magic or martial classes.

Yeah.

So, I was thinking of building an uberwizard just to make a point. At first I considered going for a Runesmith, but after building it I sort of doubt that a mage trodding around in heavy steam armor is going to really get it across. So now I turn to the playground.

1. Which school should I spec in, if at all?

2. Which schools should be dropped?

3. At what ratio is gaining caster levels worth losing (or delaying) spell levels?

4. Assuming CL10 with a good helping of cheddar, what can I do to really show of what arcane might can be?


TIA

[Beheld]

It always depends on the sources allowed, but if you want to make "The Most Powerful Wizard That Proves They Are Really Strong" while still being capable of adventuring with a regular party and playing down to a level that makes the game fun for others/helping everyone else do well would be:

Wizard 5 (Spontaneous Divination or Bonus Metamagic Feat)/Mindbender 1/Incantatrix 4.

You want Persist Spell, you want a whole bunch of bonuses to Spellcraft, you want Mindsight.

You are a level 10 Wizard who casts 5th level spells, and Persists buffs on yourself and the party. It sounds like you can expect a Cleric and/or Druid, so you can use Cooperative Metamagic to Persist their buffs.

When you Recitation of the Wrathful, and all the martials and the Cleric get an extra attack each round, they will think of you. When you Persist Greater Invis on the Rogue, and he Sneak Attacks on every attack every round, they will think of you. When you Persist a bunch of defensive buffs, so that the party survives everything no problem, they will think of you. When you identify enemies through walls with Mindsight, they will think of you.

And then you can also cast Flesh to Stone, or Fear, or Evard's Black Tentacles, or even Spell Compendium stuff or whatever like Illusory Feast/Pit, so that enemies are crippled or dead or whatever.

To answer one specific more general question, it is never worth losing Caster Levels for anything. I would be worth losing like, one caster level only, for the Incantatrix Free Persist Metamagic effects, but luckily you don't have to.

[weckar]

I was talking about GAINING caster levels at the cost of spell levels.

I am not at all concerned about being a wizard who can co-operate. For once, having a character that can outshine everyone on his own is the right thing to do. I'll keep note of that build, though.

[eggynack]

1. Which school should I spec in, if at all?
If you must, conjuration, transmutation, and divination are the three most common choices, with the last mostly interesting for its less restrictive nature. However, the best option is not specializing, and instead running an elven generalist domain wizard, which gets more spells than a specialist with none of the school loss.

2. Which schools should be dropped?
Enchantment is the worst school, evocation and necromancy are largely tied, and illusion is probably the fourth worst.

3. At what ratio is gaining caster levels worth losing (or delaying) spell levels?

The term caster level is sometimes used to refer to spell level access, which makes this confusing. Also not sure how you're trading one for the other, because such trades seem like they're mostly not a thing. But, in any case, caster levels are mostly just not worth spell levels. You'd have to get an insanely good trade to make the deal worth it.

[Eldan]

I was talking about GAINING caster levels at the cost of spell levels.

I am not at all concerned about being a wizard who can co-operate. For once, having a character that can outshine everyone on his own is the right thing to do. I'll keep not of that build, though.

If they think martials are strong, they probably think damage is strong. Look up the mailman.

[weckar]

The term caster level is sometimes used to refer to spell level access, which makes this confusing. Also not sure how you're trading one for the other, because such trades seem like they're mostly not a thing. But, in any case, caster levels are mostly just not worth spell levels. You'd have to get an insanely good trade to make the deal worth it.Master Spellthief / Ultimate Magus shenanigans could vastly increase caster level while costing some spell access levels.

[MirddinEmris]

If they think martials are strong, they probably think damage is strong. Look up the mailman.

+1

Also, i would recommend playing a sorcerer. The strength of the wizard is to have right spell for right situations and if you don't have a lot of experience in managing spellbooks and spell preparation you can shoot yourself in a foot even with a good build. Tactical flexibility of the sorcerer combined with more endurance (more spell slots) makes it less prone to such failures provided you did a decent job in the spell selection process.

Taking Mage of Arcane Order (CA) would also be a very good choice, since it will allow you to combine good points of sorcerer with limited but very versatile ability of having right spell at right time. Arcane Preparation feat should deal with prereqs for the PrC.

P.S. You can play runesmith even without armor. It's like the least powerful feature of this class) Auto-still is ridiculously good even without armor. Ability to create scrolls several times per day that don't have limitation of scrolls. Spell like ability is one of the best of course. Worth to wait a little to make a limited wish as SP. Alter Fortune is also good though.

[Braininthejar2]

The one I have tried recently is:

specialist (abjuration) 3 master specialist 7 Initiate of the sevenfold veil 7 master specialist 3

She's a nightmare to anyone that relies on buffs. also largely untouchable at later levels.

[ryu]

+1

Also, i would recommend playing a sorcerer. The strength of the wizard is to have right spell for right situations and if you don't have a lot of experience in managing spellbooks and spell preparation you can shoot yourself in a foot even with a good build. Tactical flexibility of the sorcerer combined with more endurance (more spell slots) makes it less prone to such failures provided you did a decent job in the spell selection process.

Taking Mage of Arcane Order (CA) would also be a very good choice, since it will allow you to combine good points of sorcerer with limited but very versatile ability of having right spell at right time. Arcane Preparation feat should deal with prereqs for the PrC.

Spontaneous divination to qualify for versatile spellcaster. You no longer need to put actual work into preparing spells and aren't a level behind in spell progression for the privilege. Also you have more versatility in how to manage slots than a sorcerer would base.

[weckar]

+1

Also, i would recommend playing a sorcerer. The strength of the wizard is to have right spell for right situations and if you don't have a lot of experience in managing spellbooks and spell preparation you can shoot yourself in a foot even with a good build. Tactical flexibility of the sorcerer combined with more endurance (more spell slots) makes it less prone to such failures provided you did a decent job in the spell selection process.

Taking Mage of Arcane Order (CA) would also be a very good choice, since it will allow you to combine good points of sorcerer with limited but very versatile ability of having right spell at right time. Arcane Preparation feat should deal with prereqs for the PrC.Do tell me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Uncanny Forethought help with most of those situations without having to pay back into the spellbook? Spell Mastery isn't even that much of a tax...

[MirddinEmris]

Spontaneous divination to qualify for versatile spellcaster. You no longer need to put actual work into preparing spells and aren't a level behind in spell progression for the privilege. Also you have more versatility in how to manage slots than a sorcerer would base.

Yeah, it's a good trick, but you still need to put work into preparing spell unless you want to burn through your spell slots like it's christmas. So in this case there would be even less endurance. So that depends on how often GM let's them rest.


Also, how easy it is to buy scrolls in this campaign and how many free time party have for wizard to write those spell down his spellbook.

[AvatarVecna]

Middle-Aged Gnome Wizard (Illusionist) 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5

6/12/14/20 (24)/14/12

Flaws: Feeble/Slow
ACFs: Gnome Illusionist Racial Substitution Lvls 1 & 5

Feats

HD 1: Collegiate Wizard
Flaw (Feeble): Earth Sense
Flaw (Slow): Heighten Spell
Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll (retrain into "Earth Spell")
HD 3: Spell Mastery (Silent Image, other less important things)
HD 6: Signature Spell (Silent Image)
HD 9: Uncanny Forethought

Spellbook



Spell Level
Known
Prepared


0th
all
4


1st
14
6


2nd
8
6


3rd
8
5


4th
8
4


5th
8
3




Items

Headband Of Intellect +4

Features of this build include...
Being able to spontaneously turn any prepared spell into "Silent Image" heightened high enough to use the same spell slot
Using "Silent Image" to mimick Evocation/Conjuration (Creation)/Conjuration (Summoning) spells of the same level as the slot being used
Being able to spend a full round action to spontaneously cast any spell in your spellbook
The freedom to use all your prepared slots for well-known powerful spells, knowing you can always convert them into a blasting/summoning/utility spell if need be.


One particularly interesting trick is for the wizard to use Polymorph (Cyrohydra) on himself...and his familiar, via Share Spells. Two of those things stomping around should be dealing enough damage to make you a serious member of the fight.

A few problems worth mentioning about this build:
You'll need to convince your DM to let you use flaws, or you can't have all the features mentioned above.
You need to show your DM that yes, you can heighten spells above the level of the slot being used.
You need to show your DM that no, being mindless or otherwise immune to Mind-Affecting doesn't make you immune to Shadow Illusions.

But yeah, if you can convince your DM that this stuff is both rules-legal and should be allowed, you should dominate most games; you're basically taking one of the most versatile classes (and most versatile spells) in the game, and making both of them even more versatile.

EDIT:


Do tell me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Uncanny Forethought help with most of those situations without having to pay back into the spellbook? Spell Mastery isn't even that much of a tax...

Spell Mastery on its own isn't all that impressive, but Uncanny Forethought is useful for letting you effectively prepare every utility in your spellbook without actually preparing them; meanwhile, Signature Spell itself isn't usually all that good (decent, sure, but not good), and it's only great in my build because of some other cheese being used.

[weckar]

My DM does not allow retraining of specific class-given feats into other ones. That said:


Being able to spontaneously turn any prepared spell into "Silent Image" heightened high enough to use the same spell slot


Are you allowed to apply metamagic to uncanny forethought spells?


You need to show your DM that yes, you can heighten spells above the level of the slot being used.
How does this work, exactly?

[AvatarVecna]

My DM does not allow retraining of specific class-given feats into other ones.

Then have your backstory include a trip to the Otyugh Hole, and then retrain that feat. Or give up one of the feats in this build.


Are you allowed to apply metamagic to uncanny forethought spells?

Uncanny Forethought? I don't think you can, but that's not how we're casting it; we're casting it via Signature Spell, which lets you spontaneously cast a specific spell (in this case, Silent Image) using a prepared spell slot. This works as normal for spontaneous conversion, so I'm pretty sure metamagic is still allowed.


How does this work, exactly?

Look up "Earth Spell". It's literally what that feat does. Essentially, if you're standing on the ground, and you Heighten one of your spells, you act as if you had Heightened it an additional level for all purposes except the spell slot used. For instance, if you cast Silent Image in a 3rd lvl slot, you Heightened it to 3rd lvl...and then it gets Heightened an additional level by Earth Spell, and so your Silent Image is for all intents and purposes a 4th lvl spell. Note that this can work for any spell that's heightened, not just Silent Image. This is, incidentally, how we're entering Shadowcraft Mage early; we heighten a Shadow Spell to 3rd lvl while standing on the ground, so it becomes a 4th lvl Shadow Spell...which means we're capable of casting 4th lvl Shadow spells, and can take ScM after Wizard 5.

Of course, even if you don't like the early entry trick, that just means you go Wizard 7/ScM 3, which still means you'll be pulling illusory BS in game, it just means your Shadow Illusions will be less "real" for the moment.

EDIT: BTW, I know blasting is kinda looked down upon, but part of the reason is that it's hard to know exactly which blasting spell you'll be needing. Somewhere out there in the thousands of published spells, there's an evocation spell perfect for taking down the monster in front of you, but you didn't prepare it because it wouldn't be useful against most anything else. Now, you don't need to prepare it, you don't even need to have it in your spellbook: it's just a Silent image away.

Also, if your DM allows it (which they probably won't, given that they'll have been tolerating this nonsense for 2 levels), taking Easy Metamagic: Heighten Spell as your 12th lvl feat. That lets you Heighten your spell an additional free level.

[ryu]

Yeah, it's a good trick, but you still need to put work into preparing spell unless you want to burn through your spell slots like it's christmas. So in this case there would be even less endurance. So that depends on how often GM let's them rest.


Also, how easy it is to buy scrolls in this campaign and how many free time party have for wizard to write those spell down his spellbook.

At that point the actual question becomes whether or not he's capable of picking his spells more or less right most of the time. Considering he's about to get a step by step tutorial on what spells are good and for what from the playground? I think he'll handle it just fine. Especially considering you can just pick a bunch of extremely versatile spells that are always going to be applicable and use the feat to spontaneous get anything niche. Also if the niche thing was a divination he gets it without even marking up slots.

[Willie the Duck]

Well that brings up a good point. Do we want to be making comments that start with "You need to show your DM that yes, you can... "? Do you want to show them that arcane classes or good or that you can make an arcane class be good? If you create a build that requires too many 'this only works if the DM rules...' type things, even if we here on some forum can say that they are clearly RAW, then you lose impact in convincing your table. They can just come back saying "sure, with the amount of cheese you're slicing onto that, I'll bet you could make a monk rule the game."

I think we might want to discourage doing this via Otyugh Holes, Elven generalists, abrupt jaunting conjurers, etc., and focus on simple things like Incanatrix or Order of 7fold veils, and then make spell choice the big way you show off what you can do. Beheld's suggestions on Greater Invis, Recitation of the Wrathful, Flesh to Stone, Fear, Evard's Black Tentacles, Illusory Feast/Pit sound great. Along with Solid Fog, glitterdust (so much cooler than the cleric casting invisibility purge), polymorph into hydras as mentioned. What else really shines, especially amongst a group that considers martial more powerful than wizards?

Actually, do they consider martials more powerful, or do they just consider wizards squishy? Or run out of spells too much (because the 15 minute workday isn't in effect, it's more of the 15-hour slog)? Can you tell us a little more about the group and how this situation came to be?

[weckar]

It's an urban campaign, so rest is usually easy enough to come by.

It was actually my DM that kind of requested me to do this, so she'll likely go along with anything as long as I can point out the RAW of it. It's the other players that need convincing, not her.

The group has had two wizards before. One was a transmuter specialist that died before getting a single spell off because he got cornered by two melee walls and had nothing invested in concentration. The other thought that magic missile and shocking grasp were the best things ever, and why would he ever want to even prepare a spell that wasn't evocation? He died too.

I like the gnome illusionist idea, but I'm a little doubtful as the only semi-effective arcane character we've had thus far was a beguiler. I'd hate to change their impression of arcane magic to "Illusion is the only school worth using".

[AvatarVecna]

Well that brings up a good point. Do we want to be making comments that start with "You need to show your DM that yes, you can... "? Do you want to show them that arcane classes or good or that you can make an arcane class be good? If you create a build that requires too many 'this only works if the DM rules...' type things, even if we here on some forum can say that they are clearly RAW, then you lose impact in convincing your table. They can just come back saying "sure, with the amount of cheese you're slicing onto that, I'll bet you could make a monk rule the game."

A minor point worth mentioning: the problems I mentioned in my post weren't "this is a problem unless your DM breaks the rules in your favor", they were "this might be a problem if your DM ignores the rules saying that this totally works".

Still, you make a good point about avoiding cheese: if the goal is to show them a powerful wizard rather than a powerful ScM/Incantatrix/other high-PO buzzword PrC, then it needs to be done via spell slots, and possibly some feats. Uncanny Forethought is still probably a good idea, for instance, but the rest of my build should probably be avoided.


I think we might want to discourage doing this via Otyugh Holes, Elven generalists, abrupt jaunting conjurers, etc., and focus on simple things like Incanatrix or Order of 7fold veils, and then make spell choice the big way you show off what you can do. Beheld's suggestions on Greater Invis, Recitation of the Wrathful, Flesh to Stone, Fear, Evard's Black Tentacles, Illusory Feast/Pit sound great. Along with Solid Fog, glitterdust (so much cooler than the cleric casting invisibility purge), polymorph into hydras as mentioned. What else really shines, especially amongst a group that considers martial more powerful than wizards?

Shivering Touch is a melee touch spell that deals 3d6 Dex damage, in a game where a lot of "powerful" opponents are big bruisers like dragons and giants that have a pile of hit points but very little Dexterity to speak of. You have to beat SR (which shouldn't be too difficult), and you have to succeed on the touch attack (shouldn't be too difficult), but taking away that average of 10 Dex will reduce most any dragon in the SRD to a paralyzed oversized lizard for a minute.

Also, the OP might want to grab some kind of offensive Reserve spell, so that they have some kind of blasting spell they can use all day.

[ryu]

It's an urban campaign, so rest is usually easy enough to come by.

It was actually my DM that kind of requested me to do this, so she'll likely go along with anything as long as I can point out the RAW of it. It's the other players that need convincing, not her.

The group has had two wizards before. One was a transmuter specialist that died before getting a single spell off because he got cornered by two melee walls and had nothing invested in concentration. The other thought that magic missile and shocking grasp were the best things ever, and why would he ever want to even prepare a spell that wasn't evocation? He died too.

I like the gnome illusionist idea, but I'm a little doubtful as the only semi-effective arcane character we've had thus far was a beguiler. I'd hate to change their impression of arcane magic to "Illusion is the only school worth using".

May want to start play as a focused specialist conjurer and show them the terror of abrupt jaunt then. Immediately start the game completely no-selling attempts to hit you ideally while taunting with free actions and crowd controlling the hell out of people with one of the two most versatile schools in the entire game. If the ability to make an entire encounter shut up and sit down in complete safety doesn't change their minds I don't know what will.

[AvatarVecna]

I like the gnome illusionist idea, but I'm a little doubtful as the only semi-effective arcane character we've had thus far was a beguiler. I'd hate to change their impression of arcane magic to "Illusion is the only school worth using".

Beguilers are pretty cool, yeah. If you want to avoid giving the impression that only illusionists are worth anything, make sure to sprinkle non-illusion spells into your repertoire and make use of them. Things like Evard's Black Tentacles (a non-instantaneous AoE that both grapples and damages), Polymorph (which has its own handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=519.0)), Shivering Touch (-10 Dex screws over a lot of monsters), Cloudkill (where the best case scenario for the monster is taking 1d4 Con damage per round of exposure), and other well-known "screw you" spells. The advantage of the build I showed was that it also had ridiculous versatility in blasting, summoning, and utility spells.

To the OP: I understand your DM is unwilling to retrain static class features, but perhaps you'd be able to convince them to let you retrain Scribe Scroll into Heighten Spell instead? Metamagic and item creation are the things wizards are good at, it shouldn't be that much of a stretch. Worth asking, anway.

[MirddinEmris]

If you really want to show them the power of arcane spells, you can just be pure wizard with couple of ACF thrown in. Focused Specialist Conjurer (maybe with Master Specialist levels) is more than enough for proving your point, sprinkle Abrupt Jaunt or Rapid Summoning on top if you wish. Take simple core feats like Quicken Spell and Improved Initiative. Maybe a couple of very good ones from different splatbooks like Uncanny Forethought or Dimensional Jaunt. The power of arcane spellcasters lies in their spells, so that's where you need to concentrate your efforts.

The simpler your build is, the more you get your point across. "Look, all that time i was pure wizard with Quicken Spell, Improved Initiative and Toughness for every other feat slot. And i was badass". If you can pull it off, of course)

[Willie the Duck]

A minor point worth mentioning: the problems I mentioned in my post weren't "this is a problem unless your DM breaks the rules in your favor", they were "this might be a problem if your DM ignores the rules saying that this totally works".

I know. I mentioned that. I am saying that it truly, madly, deeply doesn't matter. If the other players think it is cheese, it is cheese. But I think by your next statements that we are in agreement on that.

[Segev]

My advice would be to avoid overt cheese (defined as "anything your fellow players will look at as cheesy"), and go for a "batman wizard" build, as many here have suggested. That is, focus on being useful in the background, making your allies shine (the beatstick PC should be your favorite combat spell; empower him with other spells at every opportunity).

Do this habitually. If they never accuse you of being weak, or even better, if they praise you for the great help you're being, smile and take that as your point being proven. If they DO say how weak you are because you're an arcane caster, that's when you bring out the battlefield control and the trump-card spells and single-handedly obliterate an encounter or two. Do it wisely, when you can afford it, and don't do it more often than is absolutely necessary to demonstrate that you are not weak. Go back, as soon as the next fight, to supporting the party and making them shine.

Remember: your goal is to prove that arcane casters are not weak, not to ruin other people's fun. They will appreciate your strength more if it empowers them to be cool in the spotlight.

[Willie the Duck]

Now that you mention it, here's something I rarely see on message board builds (everyone loves to talk feats and PrCs and ACFs, but a spell list is a little more thought). If you have a level 10 batman wizard (let's say Int 20), relatively cheese-less build. What is your standard operating spells memorized? Wexkar says it is urban adventure, so maybe focus more on social than dungeon-solvers. That sounds like a fun project.

[AvatarVecna]

Now that you mention it, here's something I rarely see on message board builds (everyone loves to talk feats and PrCs and ACFs, but a spell list is a little more thought). If you have a level 10 batman wizard (let's say Int 20), relatively cheese-less build. What is your standard operating spells memorized? Wexkar says it is urban adventure, so maybe focus more on social than dungeon-solvers. That sounds like a fun project.

Let's do straight Wizard 10, then. Cheese is relative, but I'll try avoid any cheese that isn't focused around versatility (which is supposedly the strength of the Batman Wizard):

Old Gray Elf Wizard 10 (Elf Wizard Racial Levels 1 and 3)

Famliar (Dog: Sense Motive +3)

Stats

Str 5/Dex 8/Con 8/Int 24 (28)/Wis 14/Cha 14

Int: Base 18+Gray Elf 2+Old 2+Level 2+Item 4=28

Skills

Concentration: 13 ranks (+12)
Decipher Script: 1 rank (+10)
Diplomacy: 6 ranks (+12)
Gather Information: 6 ranks (+10)
Knowledge (Arcana): 13 ranks (+22)
Knowledge (A&E): 1 rank (+10)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering): 1 rank (+10)
Knowledge (Geography): 1 rank (+10)
Knowledge (History): 1 rank (+10)
Knowledge (Local): 6 ranks (+15)
Knowledge (Nature): 1 rank (+10)
Knowledge (N&R): 6 ranks (+15)
Knowledge (Religion): 1 rank (+10)
Knowledge (The Planes): 13 ranks (+22)
Sense Motive: 6 ranks (+14)
Spellcraft: 13 ranks (+24)

Flaws

Feeble
Slow

Feats

HD 1: Collegiate Wizard
Flaw (Feeble): Spell Mastery
Flaw (Slow): Uncanny Forethought
Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll
HD 3: Acidic Splatter
Wizard 5: Heighten Spell
HD 6: Winter's Blast
HD 9: Vatic Gaze
Wizard 10: Extend Spell

Spellbook

Spell Slots: 4/7/7/5/5/5

0th: all cantrips known

18 1st: Alarm, Protection From Evil, Grease, Mage Armor, Mount, Obscuring Mist, Unseen Servant, Identify, Charm Person, Hypnotism, Tenser's Floating Disk, Magic Missile, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Animate Rope, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Enlarge Person

10 2nd: Protection From Arrows, Acid Arrow, Glitterdust, Web, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object, Mirror Image, Alter Self, Knock, Rope Trick, Spider Climb

10 3rd: Dispel Magic, Nondetection, Stinking Cloud, Suggestion, Fireball, Wind Wall, Major Image, Blink, Fly, Haste

10 4th: Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Summon Monster IV, Scrying, Fire Shield, Wall Of Fire, Greater Invisibility, Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Polymorph

10 5th: Cloudkill, Summon Monster V, Teleport, Contact Other Plane, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Cone Of Cold, Wall Of Force, Persistent Image, Telekinesis

Honestly, if we're talking urban social arcane caster, Beguiler would do everything we'd want: it spontaneously casts off its entire list, its list is filled with things you'd want for a social game, it gets 6+Int skill points per level, and has a much better socialization skill list to boot. That said, this wizard won't be doing too bad for themselves.

This list is by no means extensive (it's only PHB spells) and by no means optimized (lots of broken spells outside Core), so if you trade around some stuff for spell from elsewhere, it wouldn't be too bad. The main thing you'll want to do while preparing spells is have your combat spells ready to fire off quickly, and don't prepare utility spells unless you think the 1 round time to cast them would be too much of a problem. Utility stuff you know will only get used outside of combat should not be prepared. My suggestion would be to always keep a Cone Of Cold and/or Heightened Acid Arrow on standby in a 5th lvl slot, so that you have access to both Reserve feats if you need them. A good way to keep ahead of a Beguiler is to make sure to integrate scrolls into your spellbook often; every spell added is, at the very least another utility you can spontaneously call upon out-of-combat.

[LTwerewolf]

I would recommend not trying to play in a campaign with it, but simply suggest that you guys could do the pretty standard tests of who can solve what problem, followed by a quick arena fight of your caster vs their party. Give yourself some arbitrary time limit like two in-game hours to get ready for said fight.

[dascarletm]

Why do you need to prove anything to them? Seriously. Why?

This means you get to play the arcane magic dude whenever you want. Play a bog-standard wizard and focus on support, and have fun.

Let them think whatever they want, obviously the DM is adjusting the encounters well enough to accommodate for the party make-up. I see no problem here.

[Eldariel]

Now that you mention it, here's something I rarely see on message board builds (everyone loves to talk feats and PrCs and ACFs, but a spell list is a little more thought). If you have a level 10 batman wizard (let's say Int 20), relatively cheese-less build. What is your standard operating spells memorized? Wexkar says it is urban adventure, so maybe focus more on social than dungeon-solvers. That sounds like a fun project.

Well, it's not level 10 but here's a level 11 build I used in an arena:
Manaranel (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=490438)

It's Pathfinder but not much different from a 3.5 character; few extra feats, some class features, and some spells work slightly differently. The spell list is specialized for battle (and he has spontaneous Summon Monster VI thus having none prepared); if the character existed for a normal game, there'd be at least one Contact Other Plane prepared and the Arcane Sight would be Permanencied. However, due to arena rules I rather spent more money on useful consumables and left it for Quickening as needed.

Of course, this build uses a lot of resources on Telekinesis (all the Greater Magic Weapons plus the Bag of Holding and the Gargantuan Greatswords); it uses Summon Monster VI to summon Shadow Demon (which has Telekinesis at will) as well as those two prepared Telekinesis for a bit of physical pummeling. Still, the same basic fundamentals apply to spell preparation:
- Prepare to attack each save
- Prepare touch attacks without saves
- Prepare some information gathering spells
- Prepare some way to attack physical defenses (Summons, Telekinesis, etc.)
- Prepare some easy, efficient defenses
- Prepare versatile spells (Shapechanging, Summons, etc.)

Few slots can be left open for this preparation on the spot. Doubly so with Uncanny Forethought. And Scrolls cover a lot of holes.

[weckar]

Why do you need to prove anything to them? Seriously. Why?

This means you get to play the arcane magic dude whenever you want. Play a bog-standard wizard and focus on support, and have fun.

Let them think whatever they want, obviously the DM is adjusting the encounters well enough to accommodate for the party make-up. I see no problem here.
I need to because I want to. What I don't want is to play backline support. I'm not that kind of guy. Heck, I wouldn't be building this if the DM hadn't specifically asked.

[Endarire]

@Weckar: What do you especially want this Wizard to do? There's plenty it can do.

For example, be a Gray Elf Wizard5/Mindbender1/Incantatrix4. Take the Elven Generalist Wizard ACF. Take the Domain Wizard ACF and pick the Conjuration or Transmutation domain. Preferably also take the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat so you get your INT mod instead of your CON mod for HP. Start with max INT and, preferably, get a headband of +6 INT. You can easily start the game with 28 INT, or, if you like a more aged Wizard, 30 INT but -3 STR/DEX/CON due to Old age.

Do the typical Persist tricks. Be a crowd controller. You have lots of INT and spell slots. (With 28+ INT, you have 2 bonus spell slots from INT for spell levels 1-5. That should be plenty for now!)

The level of Mindbender is optional, but handy due to Mindsight - if your GM permits that. Otherwise, consider what others have said.

A sample build is non-Evil Dragonborn Gray Elf Wizard5/Mindbender1/Incantatrix4. Assuming no flaws/traits nor wondrous locations, take:
1: Faerie Mysteries Initiate
3: Iron Will
5: [Extend Spell]
6: [Persistent Spell], Reserves of Strength
9: Mindsight (OR Improved Initiative if you didn't go Mindbender)
10: [Easy Metamagic: Persistent Spell]

Worship Bahamut and use a Special Holy Symbol (Complete Champion) of Bahamut for +1 CL on Transmutation spells. Your domain spells get an extra +1 CL even when not cast from your domain slot.

This lets you get caster level 11 on Transmutation spells, CL10 on everything else, and +3 CL for long-term buffs (1 minute/CL or more) using Reserves of Strength. No lost caster levels, but you need to oppose a school at Incantatrix1. Oppose Enchantment if you can or Necromancy if you can't.

I highly recommend you not give up any base caster levels. Being a Wizard - perhaps moreso than any other casting class - is about what spells you know, what spells you can cast, how often you can cast each spell, and your CL for each spell. If you're giving up a base caster level (like from Malconvoker1 or Mindbender2), you had better have a very good reason for doing so. For a Malconvoker, getting access to Malconvoker5 is the sweet spot of the class. There is no such reason for Mindbender2.

[Eldariel]

@Weckar: What do you especially want this Wizard to do? There's plenty it can do.

For example, be a Gray Elf Wizard5/Mindbender1/Incantatrix4. Take the Elven Generalist Wizard ACF. Take the Domain Wizard ACF and pick the Conjuration or Transmutation domain. Preferably also take the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat so you get your INT mod instead of your CON mod for HP. Start with max INT and, preferably, get a headband of +6 INT. You can easily start the game with 28 INT, or, if you like a more aged Wizard, 30 INT but -3 STR/DEX/CON due to Old age.

Do the typical Persist tricks. Be a crowd controller. You have lots of INT and spell slots. (With 28+ INT, you have 2 bonus spell slots from INT for spell levels 1-5. That should be plenty for now!)

The level of Mindbender is optional, but handy due to Mindsight - if your GM permits that. Otherwise, consider what others have said.

You can just get a familiar with Telepathy (Pseudodragon is a good 3.5 option) and have it pick up Mindsight through Psychic Reformation (cast through scrolled Limited Wish shared with it). Saves you the level and enables absolutely ludicrous scope of Mindsight if you have a way to have your Pseudodragon change shape and assume supernatural qualities (such as the feat by that name from Savage Species + Polymorph). Well, of course you need Shapechange for Formian Queen but e.g. Psurlon [Lords of Madness] has 250' Telepathy at 7 HD, Meenlock [Monster Manual II] has 300' Telepathy at 4 HD, Thoon Elder Brain [Monster Manual V] has 1 mile at 12 HD, Braxat [Monster Manual II] has 1 mile at 10 HD, Spellweaver [Monster Manual II] has a special telepathy (other Spellweavers) with a range of 1000 miles at 10 HD, etc.

[Endarire]

Also see Raising Caster Level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444635-Raising-Caster-Level) for CL boosters.

If you want to be vindictive, go Specialist Wizard5/Red Wizard5 for Circle Magic. You'd need a simulacrum or few of high-level Red Wizards to aid in your Circle Magic for best effect, but these extra minions are optional. Red Wizard Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9309).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Being able to spend a full round action to spontaneously cast any spell in your spellbook.Rapid Spell means you can turn that full round action into a standard, right?

[AvatarVecna]

Rapid Spell means you can turn that full round action into a standard, right?

I'm not sure. That particular mechanics is being accomplished using the secondary ability of Uncanny Forethought; while it basically gives you the ability to spontaneously convert a prepared spell into some other spell, it doesn't actually function like a spontaneous conversion ability (it's not specifically called out as such an ability, and it takes up a full round action instead of the spell's normal casting time). This contrasts with things like Signature Spell, which explicitly calls out its ability as being the same kind of thing as a cleric spontaneously converting a spell slot into a Cure/Inflict spell.

If the rules say that spells you cast by spontaneously converting spell slots into them can be metamagic'd, and if the rules say that Uncanny Forethought counts as this kind of conversion substitution, then I think it would be legal, but I'm not sure either of those things is true.

[Sayt]

Also see Raising Caster Level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444635-Raising-Caster-Level) for CL boosters.

If you want to be vindictive, go Specialist Wizard5/Red Wizard5 for Circle Magic. You'd need a simulacrum or few of high-level Red Wizards to aid in your Circle Magic for best effect, but these extra minions are optional. Red Wizard Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9309).
Personally, I'd try to prove that wizards can and do pull their weight. That said, OP has indicated that he wants to show that wizards can be/are dominant, and this is what I'd build if I was trying to prove that to lower optimization group. Simulacrum yourself a half-dozen times, give them the circle magic tat, and use them as batteries to throw around over engorged blast spells and SoDs with absurd DCs. Maybe give each simulacrum a necklace of adaptation and stick them in a portable hole with an everburning torch and some comic books (Treat Yo Selves)

[Elkad]

Just because you CAN break the game doesn't mean you have to. At least not at first.
The question is how much does it take to convince them?

Instead of smashing the game with one trick, I'd bend it with a bunch of different ones.

Put a couple BFC spells down and then break out the bow for no reason at all. Or skip the bow and just stand there with popcorn and cheer the BSFs.
Next encounter day, do something completely different. Completely ignore the monsters, just pour buffs onto your party.
Do some initiative/mini-mailman and out-DPS the melee before he even gets a turn. Wipe out the biggest monster from range and then sit back.
Fill the whole battlefield with summoned/animated creatures.
Come discover the secrets at the Mayors Ball by smashing diplomacy rules via enchantments.
Blow half your slots on divinations for the day, and then skip the whole party past all the urban/social encounters, all the entrance mobs, and straight to the boss fight for some scry-and-die.

The point is to basically show them why tier1 is tier1. The sorc could do any one of those things. You can do all of them. Stick to a small slice of cheese at every meal, just keep changing flavors.

[DMVerdandi]

For the most part, I agree with the build. The Easy Bake Wizard is probably the best example of how subtle the power of the wizard is, but how simply it can just become unstoppable.

HOWEVER, using the spell point wizard variant just makes it SO MUCH BETTER. I definitely suggest using it.


Alternatively there is the Sha'ir class. Essentially it is a better sorcerer, with a little Genie that grabs it's spells for it from elemental planes. The spell mechanic is technically weird, but it works. One just needs to properly plan rest periods.

At level 5 it takes 5 minutes to recall all the slots possible(40 mins MAX for every slot possible recovering a known spell), and since you probably want to leave one per level open for on the fly spells, even less.
It seems messy, but with a little common sense, the class shines pretty hard.

Pay wizards to show you spells, or for scrolls one time, and you essentially can memorize it on the spot. You will always be able to draw on your spells known faster (10x faster), but for that spell that you just need to pull out the hat, sha'ir works wonderfully.





Even still, spell point easy bake wizard is like...Beautiful.
Especially if you throw in some war-weaver.

[ragevillain]

The point is to basically show them why tier1 is tier1. The sorc could do any one of those things. You can do all of them. Stick to a small slice of cheese at every meal, just keep changing flavors.
Knowstones + Rings of Theurgy(Any spell acess) + Greater Arcane Fusion say otherwise

[Beheld]

Knowstones + Rings of Theurgy(Any spell acess) + Greater Arcane Fusion say otherwise

Just out of curiosity, when you keep saying that everywhere, do you think one ring of theurgy can store more than 3 spells or are you just advocating for like 5000 rings that you can all use at once.

[ragevillain]

More rings =)

[Recherché]

More rings =)

IIRC you only have two ring slots and thus two rings at a time and Wbl is a very finite resource.

[ragevillain]

IIRC you only have two ring slots and thus two rings at a time and Wbl is a very finite resource.
just remove and use the other ring . so simple , right?
Instant summon spell is useful .

[Illven]

IIRC you only have two ring slots and thus two rings at a time and Wbl is a very finite resource.

You can use a hand of glory to change your throat slot into a ring slot.

And there's a feat in.... somewhere. Ebberon maybe, that I think lets you benefit from 4 rings.

[JNAProductions]

Doesn't stop WBL from being finite, though.

[ragevillain]

You can use a hand of glory to change your throat slot into a ring slot.

And there's a feat in.... somewhere. Ebberon maybe, that I think lets you benefit from 4 rings.
Dont need, only persist useful buffs and remove it: Death Ward, Sheltered Vitality, Unearthly Beauty, Consumptive Field etc.
Use rings to useful spells while combat: Holy Word, Blasphemy, Surge of Fortune, etc.

[JNAProductions]

Dont need, only persist useful buffs and remove it: Death Ward, Sheltered Vitality, Unearthly Beauty, Consumptive Field etc.
Use rings to useful spells while combat: Holy Word, Blasphemy, Surge of Fortune, etc.

And WBL is avoided... How?

[ragevillain]

You can do it with only one ring. =)

[LTwerewolf]

And WBL is avoided... How?

I'm sure he'll pull out infinite wishes that are somehow not an infinite loop.

Anyhow, I would personally go with a god wizard in this situation. Let them be content in thinking you're not doing much, but somehow all the fights have become super easy.

[JNAProductions]

You can do it with only one ring. =)

You listed 7 spells. That's three rings minimum.

[ragevillain]

You listed 7 spells. That's three rings minimum.

Persist 3, thereafter store +3
is so simple , it's just store more spells




I'm sure he'll pull out infinite wishes that are somehow not an infinite loop.

Anyhow, I would personally go with a god wizard in this situation. Let them be content in thinking you're not doing much, but somehow all the fights have become super easy.
Knowstones + Undead Battery say otherwise

[eggynack]

Why is this item interesting? The ring loses each spell once you cast it, and then you need someone else who actually has the spells to cast into the ring for you. If you have someone to cast useful spells for you on a practically daily basis, then you're not exactly a super powerful self sufficient caster. You're some guy with an awesome wizard friend.

[ragevillain]

Binding Spells(Elemental Weirdy/Planetars)
Simulacruns(Elemental Weirdy / Solars / Abeil,queen)
Dragon Ally(Linnorm Dragons MMII pg 140)

Sorcerer dont need wizard as friend.

[eggynack]

Binding Spells(Elemental Weirdy/Planetars)
Simulacruns(Elemental Weirdy / Solars / Abeil,queen)
Dragon Ally(Linnorm Dragons MMII pg 140)

Sorcerer dont need wizard as friend.
I don't care about any of that. I'm asking why you were talking up this item. Are you agreeing that the item doesn't do all that much?

[Illven]

I don't care about any of that. I'm asking why you were talking up this item. Are you agreeing that the item doesn't do all that much?

I guess... It would allow you to get personal buffs cast into the ring from the creatures you bind, since they can't cast on you.

[ragevillain]

The point is to basically show them why tier1 is tier1. The sorc could do any one of those things. You can do all of them. Stick to a small slice of cheese at every meal, just keep changing flavors.


I just said this guy . Sorcerer can do everything that the wizard does. Maybe even better.

Knowstones / Rings / Undead Battery / Greater Arcane Fusion are good arguments.

Edit: Bind creatures transfer spells to rings and Sorcerer cast it as know spells.

[Deophaun]

I don't care about any of that. I'm asking why you were talking up this item. Are you agreeing that the item doesn't do all that much?
The only thing the ring can do that's interesting is it can be used to turn any spell that's cast into it into an arcane version, which is very useful if you want to attune a dragonshard for a Drake helm to a divine-only spell.

[ragevillain]

This is incredibly useful.

[eggynack]

Edit: Bind creatures transfer spells to rings and Sorcerer cast it as know spells.
Fair, but it seems kinda thin. It's not so much upping your spells known as it is kinda altering the form those spells take. Pretty expensive for that utility.

[ragevillain]

I love Undead Battery too. It can be really powerful and useful.

[One Step Two]

@Weckar: What do you especially want this Wizard to do? There's plenty it can do.

For example, be a Gray Elf Wizard5/Mindbender1/Incantatrix4. Take the Elven Generalist Wizard ACF. Take the Domain Wizard ACF and pick the Conjuration or Transmutation domain. Preferably also take the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat so you get your INT mod instead of your CON mod for HP. Start with max INT and, preferably, get a headband of +6 INT. You can easily start the game with 28 INT, or, if you like a more aged Wizard, 30 INT but -3 STR/DEX/CON due to Old age.

Do the typical Persist tricks. Be a crowd controller. You have lots of INT and spell slots. (With 28+ INT, you have 2 bonus spell slots from INT for spell levels 1-5. That should be plenty for now!)

The level of Mindbender is optional, but handy due to Mindsight - if your GM permits that. Otherwise, consider what others have said.

A sample build is non-Evil Dragonborn Gray Elf Wizard5/Mindbender1/Incantatrix4. Assuming no flaws/traits nor wondrous locations, take:
1: Faerie Mysteries Initiate
3: Iron Will
5: [Extend Spell]
6: [Persistent Spell], Reserves of Strength
9: Mindsight (OR Improved Initiative if you didn't go Mindbender)
10: [Easy Metamagic: Persistent Spell]

Worship Bahamut and use a Special Holy Symbol (Complete Champion) of Bahamut for +1 CL on Transmutation spells. Your domain spells get an extra +1 CL even when not cast from your domain slot.

This lets you get caster level 11 on Transmutation spells, CL10 on everything else, and +3 CL for long-term buffs (1 minute/CL or more) using Reserves of Strength. No lost caster levels, but you need to oppose a school at Incantatrix1. Oppose Enchantment if you can or Necromancy if you can't.

I highly recommend you not give up any base caster levels. Being a Wizard - perhaps moreso than any other casting class - is about what spells you know, what spells you can cast, how often you can cast each spell, and your CL for each spell. If you're giving up a base caster level (like from Malconvoker1 or Mindbender2), you had better have a very good reason for doing so. For a Malconvoker, getting access to Malconvoker5 is the sweet spot of the class. There is no such reason for Mindbender2.

I endorse this build, but here's some specific tactics:

I call it the "Stop hitting yourself" buffing.

Casting the Heart of Air, Earth, Water and Fire buffs from complete mage to make you immune to critical hits, and Acid Sheathe form spell compendium.

The moment you're attacked, you trigger the effect of Heart of Fire, to give you fire shield as an immediate action, anything that hits you takes 20 acid damage, and 10+1d6 fire damage. If they're silly enough to keep striking you, trigger the Heart of Earth to give yourself stoneskin, and weather their nickel-and-dime damage while they take 30+ damage per turn themselves. Combine with Fireburst or Greater fireburst, and make anything that chooses to get within 5 feet of you regret everything forever.

[ragevillain]

Pretty expensive for that utility.
Its not expansive, Sorcerer can use Necrotic Tumor To permanently control the creature .

[eggynack]

Its not expansive, Sorcerer can use Necrotic Tumor To permanently control the creature .
I meant the item is expensive, first of all. Second of all, you're spending an awful lot of spells to get access to three spells that you'd already have access to anyway, if from a different source.

[One Step Two]

Its not expansive, Sorcerer can use Necrotic Tumor To permanently control the creature .

So, Where a wizard can write the spells into his spellbook, and cast them whenever he feels he needs them is less optimal than a sorcerer who takes the mother cyst feat, uses planar binding to call the creatures to him, fight them to be able to implant a necrotic cyst to use Necrotic Tumor?

[ragevillain]

So, Where a wizard can write the spells into his spellbook, and cast them whenever he feels he needs them is less optimal than a sorcerer who takes the mother cyst feat, uses planar binding to call the creatures to him, fight them to be able to implant a necrotic tumor to use Necrotic Tumor?
Stolen Spellbook can be a problem =O
Sorcerer simple learn spells(Or Miracle) or knowstones.
I love use Mother Cyst feat! Minions is so good!

[Deophaun]

Stolen Spellbook can be a problem =O
Sorcerer simple learn spells(Or Miracle) or knowstones.
Stolen knowstones can be a problem.

[ragevillain]

Not necessarily , there is still their know spells .

[Azoth]

Why not just go Eidetic Elven Generalist Domain Wizard 5 (Spontaneous Divination)/Incantrix3/Mindbender1/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1.

No spell book needed, no familiar to lose, persistent buffs for days, and 100ft mindsight. Finish out Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil then go Archmage as a general end for the last 4 levels.

You should be damn near unkillabe and easily able to handle whatever a DM throws at you. You also only bar 1 school of magic when entering Iot7V.

[One Step Two]

Why not just go Eidetic Elven Generalist Domain Wizard 5 (Spontaneous Divination)/Incantrix3/Mindbender1/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1.

No spell book needed, no familiar to lose, persistent buffs for days, and 100ft mindsight. Finish out Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil then go Archmage as a general end for the last 4 levels.

You should be damn near unkillabe and easily able to handle whatever a DM throws at you. You also only bar 1 school of magic when entering Iot7V.

Naked wizard is best wizard. Banning Enchantment is a usual good bet. And if you really don't want to lose the school you've banned, there's the three feats from Lost Empires of Faerun to get them back!

[weckar]

Wow, this took off overnight! Some interesting builds discussed to be sure.

Most of you seem to agree I shouldn't blow up the game. While I don't necessarily agree with that (why throw bullets when you can throw nukes), it clearly means I need to rephrase my objective a little.

I want to make a powerful wizard that can outdo a party of 2 martials and a divine caster by CL 10. Flashy is better than subtle. Raw power would also trump versatility, but I'd prefer both.


@ragevillain Thanks for your input, but I'd like to end the Wizards V Sorcerers debate. Wizard is the goal here, mostly as there is already a favored soul in the group.

[Seppo87]

I'm afraid that you will never convince them.

You cast Black Tentacles
The enemy is now harmless
Encounter is easily won
"THIS ENEMY WAS WEAK. STUPID WIZARD DID NOT CONTRIBUTE WITH DAMAGE"

You do not cast black tentacles, you cast Fireball instead
The enemy is now free to slaughter
Encounter is very hard
"wow this guy was tough, stupid wizard didn't deal as much damage as charging barbarian tho"

Some people just cannot understand the impact of a well placed debuff

[weckar]

Maybe the ideal situation would be a matter of timing. Wait three rounds with some minor magics while they gauge the actual enemy strength, then go in to destroy.

[AvatarVecna]

Build a versatile wizard, and have them spend their time buffing the party to invincibility. Then, when they're facing down an encounter that they could curbstomp with buffs but would have a tough time without buffs, don't buff them. Plink away with a crossbow, or a slingshot. Once you move on to later fights, continue buffing them up again, as if nothing has changed. The next time you guys face a fight that's easy with buffs and difficult without, don't buff them; instead, roflstomp your way through the encounter; bonus points if you can completely dominate the encounter before any of the other PCs get to go (this is easier to arrange if you beat everybody on initiative).

[Endarire]

Crowd control is rarely subtle. Consider a web or stinking cloud or Evard's black tentacles or cloudkill or such. (I like web + haboob since it's likely to immobilize then blenderize enemies. Or use solid fog + Evard's black tentacles or EBT + stinking cloud to ensure things just don't move and keep taking damage.) A metamagic rod of Lesser Quicken would likely work well here for the 3/day two spells per round.

As a Wizard, you can do impressive things with your spells. Certain classes and feats and items just make these things easier, cheaper, or/and better.

[Seppo87]

Crowd control is rarely subtle. Consider a web or stinking cloud or Evard's black tentacles or cloudkill or such.

I've seen the following reactions in my career:
"Stupid cloud is poisonous I cannot attack now"
"Why are you blocking enemies, I want them to come at me"
"The wizard is doing no damage I don't think he's useful"
"Why didn't you select Fireball anyway?"

[weckar]

"Why didn't you select Fireball anyway?"
Wiz: "Sorry, I took evocation as a banned school"
Pal: *head explodes*

[One Step Two]

Wiz: "Sorry, I took evocation as a banned school"
Pal: *head explodes*

Which is why you take Spell Reprieve, Item Reprieve, and Arcane Transfiguration. Three wizard feats to make a single banned school accessible again. Because why should the poor wizard be denied anything? It's clearly under powered.

[Sayt]

I've seen the following reactions in my career:
"Stupid cloud is poisonous I cannot attack now"
"Why are you blocking enemies, I want them to come at me"
"The wizard is doing no damage I don't think he's useful"
"Why didn't you select Fireball anyway?"
To be fair, there is a certain amount of wisdom to the first two. Not every monster has pounce or charge multipliers, and if you have neither yourself, its better to be charged than to charge, because you get hit once and hit back lots.

Secondly, I personally think BFC should be used to divide enemy teams and reduce their synergy, or split encounters into manageable chunks. If battlefield control just puts the whole combat (which you intend to win, not avoid, in this case) on hold, what did you actually achieve?

[One Step Two]

To be fair, there is a certain amount of wisdom to the first two. Not every monster has pounce or charge multipliers, and if you have neither yourself, its better to be charged than to charge, because you get hit once and hit back lots.

Secondly, I personally think BFC should be used to divide enemy teams and reduce their synergy, or split encounters into manageable chunks. If battlefield control just puts the whole combat (which you intend to win, not avoid, in this case) on hold, what did you actually achieve?

Stacking BFC with sustained area damage ends encounters, The combo of Cloudkill and black tentacles means most opponents are dead.

[Deophaun]

Stacking BFC with sustained area damage ends encounters, The combo of Cloudkill and black tentacles means most opponents are dead.
OK, but then what are you letting the other characters do? This is still a game, and everyone needs to have fun.

[Beheld]

Which is why you take Spell Reprieve, Item Reprieve, and Arcane Transfiguration. Three wizard feats to make a single banned school accessible again. Because why should the poor wizard be denied anything? It's clearly under powered.

I wouldn't waste three feats on Evocation. You can UMD a scroll of contingency and then move on with your life because nothing else in evocation was worth having and have three feats instead.

[ryu]

OK, but then what are you letting the other characters do? This is still a game, and everyone needs to have fun.

Demonstrating exactly how ineffective their standard strategies are, and how skewed their perception of relative power. We can easily go back to the buffing method the next combat.

[weckar]

because nothing else in evocation was worth having.Sending can be a big deal, dropping that has hurt me in the past.

[eggynack]

OK, but then what are you letting the other characters do? This is still a game, and everyone needs to have fun.
Well, if we're acting in keeping with the goal of the thread, then the answer in the immediate sense is nothing. The encounter collapses into nothingness at the hands of the awesome wizard, and maybe the other characters can clean up whatever's left over if something survives. Then the DM, and the other players, presumably recognize the awe inspiring power of a wizard, and then just kinda space out encounters more, so that killing everyone instantly isn't an option. So, not much in the way of long term negative effects.

[Beheld]

Sending can be a big deal, dropping that has hurt me in the past.

Sending is ... not a spell I care about. You can spend 10 minutes casting sending, or you can spend spend ten minutes Lesser Planar Binding a Lantern Archon and have it perform the service of being a Greater Teleport Messenger for you for the next Caster Level Days and then send a message in 3 seconds whenever you want. One of those is way better than the other, and costs fewer on day spell slots, and sends more messages and gets return messages. The other is Sending.

[Deophaun]

Well, if we're acting in keeping with the goal of the thread
This is part of a subtopic.
- Seppo87 stated various reactions to BFC control
- Sayt said that those reactions may well be valid, and there were approaches to BFC that avoided the underlying issues
- One Step Two responded that you could also avoid those issues by just killing everything
- My statement

So, per that conversation, not the goal at all.

[weckar]

Sending is ... not a spell I care about. You can spend 10 minutes casting sending, or you can spend spend ten minutes Lesser Planar Binding a Lantern Archon and have it perform the service of being a Greater Teleport Messenger for you for the next Caster Level Days and then send a message in 3 seconds whenever you want. One of those is way better than the other, and costs fewer on day spell slots, and sends more messages and gets return messages. The other is Sending.LPB is also a 5th level calling spell. 5th level spells are a far more precious recourse at this CL, and calling... let's say the DM has a bit of a problem with the Calling subschool.

[ryu]

LPB is also a 5th level calling spell. 5th level spells are a far more precious recourse at this CL, and calling... let's say the DM has a bit of a problem with the Calling subschool.

The fact that's it's a higher level spell is a lot less important when the duration of benefit is measured in days as opposed to seconds.

[Beheld]

LPB is also a 5th level calling spell. 5th level spells are a far more precious recourse at this CL, and calling... let's say the DM has a bit of a problem with the Calling subschool.

1) Planar Binding costs zero spell slots on all the days the Archon serves you. Because that's how you use it.
2) Sending is a 5th level spell TOO, that's the point. The conjuration version of the spell is just better in every conceivable way at the same spell level (and also costs zero spell slots because conjuration is the best, and can be performed on 3 seconds notice).
3) If your DM has a hissy fit over calling spells being used to call a messenger, then nothing you do matters anyway because your DM is psycho railroader who won't allow anything he hasn't decided in advance to happen. Planar Binding is broken, sure, but if your DM rejects the idea of using it for Messengers, then you have bigger problems and running away is your only solution.

[weckar]

3) If your DM has a hissy fit over calling spells being used to call a messenger, then nothing you do matters anyway because your DM is psycho railroader who won't allow anything he hasn't decided in advance to happen. Planar Binding is broken, sure, but if your DM rejects the idea of using it for Messengers, then you have bigger problems and running away is your only solution.That's a bit of a gross extrapolation. She just doesn't like Calling spells in general, regardless of their application. It's more a matter of being a poor slotting into the cosmology and less a matter of power.

[Segev]

For future reference, "the DM has issues with Calling" and "This setting doesn't have a cosmology that supports Calling, so those spells don't work," are two different statements. I know you meant them synonymously, so I'm just suggesting how you can avoid people misconstruing what you mean in the future.

[Willie the Duck]

I've seen the following reactions in my career:
"Stupid cloud is poisonous I cannot attack now"
"Why are you blocking enemies, I want them to come at me"
"The wizard is doing no damage I don't think he's useful"
"Why didn't you select Fireball anyway?"

Recently? As in, more than the first 6 months or so after 3.0 was released? And more than once or twice or from one rather uninformed source? I'm not doubting you, but this just sounds kinda over-the-top.

[Seppo87]

Recently? As in, more than the first 6 months or so after 3.0 was released? And more than once or twice or from one rather uninformed source? I'm not doubting you, but this just sounds kinda over-the-top.
Yes, recently.
We have an illusionist sorcerer (umbral bloodline, human, FCB to spells known) with a list that revolves around bfc, and he's been told repeatedly that he should get Fireball.

Now, the player in question is not very good tactically, so perhaps he isn't using his spells at the best of their potential. Like, he forgets to cast Mage Armor in advance. I have to give that.
It definitely is a concause.

[Segev]

Recently? As in, more than the first 6 months or so after 3.0 was released? And more than once or twice or from one rather uninformed source? I'm not doubting you, but this just sounds kinda over-the-top.

There are people who will, no matter what you do, find a way to twist what's happening to proving their point.

If they think somebody is a greedy jerk, and he's doing well for himself, then that proves he's selfishly hoarding wealth. If he gives to charity, it's "just for appearances" and "he doesn't really mean it." In fact, the "hypocrisy" of him doing so is somehow even more offensive. If he falls on hard times, it's because his greed led him to making bad decisions, and he alienated people who might've helped him if he weren't such a jerk. If people help him, he's "exploiting" them for his own greed, and "manipulating" them, because he's a jerk. Anything good he does has a nefarious purpose, even if it's just to make you THINK he's not as bad as he is.


Similarly, if they think wizards "suck," then no matter what the wizard does, he's the problem. Wipes the encounter? "It wasn't much of a challenge anyway; stop wasting your best spells." Makes the encounter easy with judicious use of BFC? "Man, even with you doing no damage, we wiped the floor with them." Does good damage, but doesn't clean things up? "Why didn't you contribute? I had to kill everything!" Is out of spells or otherwise doesn't provide the usual support? "If you were playing a USEFUL class, that fight would've been a lot easier!"

I had to stop and rethink my example multiple times; my first instincts were to use certain politicians and how they're reported on.

[Azoth]

I've seen the following reactions in my career:
"Stupid cloud is poisonous I cannot attack now"
"Why are you blocking enemies, I want them to come at me"
"The wizard is doing no damage I don't think he's useful"
"Why didn't you select Fireball anyway?"

I have seen similar up until the past month in my Pathfinder game. I was running a buff/BFC focused Wizard and they thought I wasn't carrying my weight, so I let them go a fight without being Hasted, having Good Hope going, and letting the enemies enjoy not sitting in Solid Fogs, with Black Tentacles grappling them, divide by Walls of Force.

I just lobbed bog standard fireballs and chain lightnings while flying behind a Wind Wall. They quickly got the hint and realized how much better life was when I didn't do damage and instead controlled the battlefield.

[Segev]

I have seen similar up until the past month in my Pathfinder game. I was running a buff/BFC focused Wizard and they thought I wasn't carrying my weight, so I let them go a fight without being Hasted, having Good Hope going, and letting the enemies enjoy not sitting in Solid Fogs, with Black Tentacles grappling them, divide by Walls of Force.

I just lobbed bog standard fireballs and chain lightnings while flying behind a Wind Wall. They quickly got the hint and realized how much better life was when I didn't do damage and instead controlled the battlefield.

You're lucky. They actually noticed that it was the fact that they weren't enjoying your buffs, and the enemies were able to coordinate, that made the difference. I've seen parties of players who would have said the DM made that encounter too hard, or who would have said that you STILL weren't contributing even when you cast "real spells" because you'd never learned how to use them "right." Or worse, that it's your fault for interfering.

[Willie the Duck]

Most of you seem to agree I shouldn't blow up the game. While I don't necessarily agree with that (why throw bullets when you can throw nukes), it clearly means I need to rephrase my objective a little.

I want to make a powerful wizard that can outdo a party of 2 martials and a divine caster by CL 10. Flashy is better than subtle. Raw power would also trump versatility, but I'd prefer both.

Your call, but a completely cheese free wizard can do it, and then they couldn't say that it was the cheese that won the day instead of the wizard-ness.


Let's do straight Wizard 10, then. Cheese is relative, but I'll try avoid any cheese that isn't focused around versatility (which is supposedly the strength of the Batman Wizard):

Old Gray Elf Wizard 10 (Elf Wizard Racial Levels 1 and 3)

Famliar (Dog: Sense Motive +3)

Stats

Str 5/Dex 8/Con 8/Int 24 (28)/Wis 14/Cha 14

Int: Base 18+Gray Elf 2+Old 2+Level 2+Item 4=28

Skills

Concentration: 13 ranks (+12)
Decipher Script: 1 rank (+10)
Diplomacy: 6 ranks (+12)
Gather Information: 6 ranks (+10)
Knowledge (Arcana): 13 ranks (+22)
Knowledge (A&E): 1 rank (+10)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering): 1 rank (+10)
Knowledge (Geography): 1 rank (+10)
Knowledge (History): 1 rank (+10)
Knowledge (Local): 6 ranks (+15)
Knowledge (Nature): 1 rank (+10)
Knowledge (N&R): 6 ranks (+15)
Knowledge (Religion): 1 rank (+10)
Knowledge (The Planes): 13 ranks (+22)
Sense Motive: 6 ranks (+14)
Spellcraft: 13 ranks (+24)

Flaws

Feeble
Slow

Feats

HD 1: Collegiate Wizard
Flaw (Feeble): Spell Mastery
Flaw (Slow): Uncanny Forethought
Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll
HD 3: Acidic Splatter
Wizard 5: Heighten Spell
HD 6: Winter's Blast
HD 9: Vatic Gaze
Wizard 10: Extend Spell

Spellbook

Spell Slots: 4/7/7/5/5/5

0th: all cantrips known

18 1st: Alarm, Protection From Evil, Grease, Mage Armor, Mount, Obscuring Mist, Unseen Servant, Identify, Charm Person, Hypnotism, Tenser's Floating Disk, Magic Missile, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Animate Rope, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Enlarge Person

10 2nd: Protection From Arrows, Acid Arrow, Glitterdust, Web, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object, Mirror Image, Alter Self, Knock, Rope Trick, Spider Climb

10 3rd: Dispel Magic, Nondetection, Stinking Cloud, Suggestion, Fireball, Wind Wall, Major Image, Blink, Fly, Haste

10 4th: Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Summon Monster IV, Scrying, Fire Shield, Wall Of Fire, Greater Invisibility, Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Polymorph

10 5th: Cloudkill, Summon Monster V, Teleport, Contact Other Plane, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Cone Of Cold, Wall Of Force, Persistent Image, Telekinesis



A nice little simple build. I ran it by a fellow player who is decidedly of the 'play 3e like 2e,' 'unoptimized,' 'DMs are supposed to ban broken stuff, not glory in it,' 'you can take your planar-binding, ice-assisiclone, PrC dipping shai'ir...-whatever-that-is's and shove them so far up your...' etc. etc. mindset. I think he represents the side of 3e gaming that is the opposite swing of the pendulum from the people who frequent forums like this and possibly emulate the OPs group, if they think wizards are weak.
I wanted to see what he thought would be cheesy. He said "most DMs [I don't know that he, I, or anyone here actually know what most DMs do] don't let you choose to start at a specific age. UA flaws aren't universal, he should check with his DM. Otherwise, yeah. Looks fine." So, yeah. Pretty cheese-less. I would use this in a heartbeat to showcase wizard supremacy. :-D


Yes, recently.
We have an illusionist sorcerer (umbral bloodline, human, FCB to spells known) with a list that revolves around bfc, and he's been told repeatedly that he should get Fireball.

Now, the player in question is not very good tactically, so perhaps he isn't using his spells at the best of their potential. Like, he forgets to cast Mage Armor in advance. I have to give that.
It definitely is a concause.

Well, either a bad player or a disfavoring DM can really easily mess up an illusionist build.


To the main point, I guess I'm used to a different sort of people. I'm actively playing in a group that would rather the wizard cast fireballs than (say) BFC, but that's because they want to play that type of game, not because they don't recognize the value of the alternative.

[AvatarVecna]

A nice little simple build. I ran it by a fellow player who is decidedly of the 'play 3e like 2e,' 'unoptimized,' 'DMs are supposed to ban broken stuff, not glory in it,' 'you can take your planar-binding, ice-assisiclone, PrC dipping shai'ir...-whatever-that-is's and shove them so far up your...' etc. etc. mindset. I think he represents the side of 3e gaming that is the opposite swing of the pendulum from the people who frequent forums like this and possibly emulate the OPs group, if they think wizards are weak.
I wanted to see what he thought would be cheesy. He said "most DMs [I don't know that he, I, or anyone here actually know what most DMs do] don't let you choose to start at a specific age. UA flaws aren't universal, he should check with his DM. Otherwise, yeah. Looks fine." So, yeah. Pretty cheese-less. I would use this in a heartbeat to showcase wizard supremacy. :-D

Well then, adjustments to mention in regards to the build: if you were going with bog-standard adult, you'd probably want to change around pb to look more like 10/10/10/20/12/12 at lvl 1, and getting rid of flaws probably means dropping Heighten Spell and one of the Reserve feats. The biggest change this would have on the build is that Int is 2 points lower, which means giving up one of those 1st lvl spells and having 13 less skill points to throw around.

But the build would still be a pretty solid urban mage without that stuff; it still has a Reserve feat for good at-will blasting, it can still cast any spell in its spellbook by spending a full round concentrating, which means you can use most of your slots preparing combat stuff, knowing you'll be able to use utilities if you need to. The power of this build comes not from BS combos of spell+feat+metamagic+ritual+more BS, but just from using powerful spells the way they're intended to be used, and having a versatility even most wizards can't match. Incidentally, this build gets even better if you have a nice, cheap way to add extra spells into your spellbook...and I can think of a few (selling off enemy spellbooks found, attuning enemy spellbooks found, a Blessed Book, etc).

EDIT: One thing you'll wanna check if you use this is whether the Dog familiar is allowed; it gives a nice Sense Motive bonus, which I'm using in conjunction with the Elf Wizard 3 "familiar bonus is doubled" ability to bring my Sense Motive to respectable levels. That said, it's not a standard familiar, although it definitely feels appropriate for an urban wizard.

[ryu]

Recently? As in, more than the first 6 months or so after 3.0 was released? And more than once or twice or from one rather uninformed source? I'm not doubting you, but this just sounds kinda over-the-top.

Always remember there are only two things which are infinite. Human stupidity and the universe, and I'm not SURE about the universe.

[Azoth]

You're lucky. They actually noticed that it was the fact that they weren't enjoying your buffs, and the enemies were able to coordinate, that made the difference. I've seen parties of players who would have said the DM made that encounter too hard, or who would have said that you STILL weren't contributing even when you cast "real spells" because you'd never learned how to use them "right." Or worse, that it's your fault for interfering.

Oh it was an enjoyable couple of sessions for me. I stayed full buffed, and let them suffer. They took a lot of damage and burned through a lot of healing items and we spent several days with a useless Cleric because he had to burn his spells on heals and status removal.

The greatest was making them walk from BFE back to civilization because I refused to prep teleport. Instead of 6 seconds it took us a couple weeks to hoof it.

The Cleric player cracked first and yelled at the rest of them to pull their collective heads out their rears and let me play the Wizard the way I had been because he was tired of fixing problems I could stopped from happening.

[Willie the Duck]

it can still cast any spell in its spellbook by spending a full round concentrating, which means you can use most of your slots preparing combat stuff, knowing you'll be able to use utilities if you need to.

Y'know, he must have missed that and I didn't even think it was strange. However, that's a MAJOR upgrade from straight out of the book Wizard, where you do have to choose your spells at the beginning of the day and hope that they are the right ones. I wonder if that falls into the cheese column. I think it might. I can absolutely see them say, [snarky voice] "oh, great. So through some poorly thought out obscure rule you can create a wizard that can redo their spells memorized at will and that's supposed to prove that wizards are powerful?"[/snarky voice] Hmm... I don't know what to think about that.


The power of this build comes not from BS combos of spell+feat+metamagic+ritual+more BS, but just from using powerful spells the way they're intended to be used,

And that's what I like about it.

EDIT: One thing you'll wanna check if you use this is whether the Dog familiar is allowed; it gives a nice Sense Motive bonus, which I'm using in conjunction with the Elf Wizard 3 "familiar bonus is doubled" ability to bring my Sense Motive to respectable levels. That said, it's not a standard familiar, although it definitely feels appropriate for an urban wizard.

I doubt anyone would say choosing a familiar for a skill bonus instead of a save bonus or use for delivering touch spells is being cheesy. :-)

[ryu]

Y'know, he must have missed that and I didn't even think it was strange. However, that's a MAJOR upgrade from straight out of the book Wizard, where you do have to choose your spells at the beginning of the day and hope that they are the right ones. I wonder if that falls into the cheese column. I think it might. I can absolutely see them say, [snarky voice] "oh, great. So through some poorly thought out obscure rule you can create a wizard that can redo their spells memorized at will and that's supposed to prove that wizards are powerful?"[/snarky voice] Hmm... I don't know what to think about that.



And that's what I like about it.


I doubt anyone would say choosing a familiar for a skill bonus instead of a save bonus or use for delivering touch spells is being cheesy. :-)

Hummingbird. Free improved initiative that stacks with all your other initiative boosters? Including actual improved initiative if you're going that route? Yes please.

[AvatarVecna]

Y'know, he must have missed that and I didn't even think it was strange. However, that's a MAJOR upgrade from straight out of the book Wizard, where you do have to choose your spells at the beginning of the day and hope that they are the right ones. I wonder if that falls into the cheese column. I think it might. I can absolutely see them say, [snarky voice] "oh, great. So through some poorly thought out obscure rule you can create a wizard that can redo their spells memorized at will and that's supposed to prove that wizards are powerful?"[/snarky voice] Hmm... I don't know what to think about that.

Yeah, it's definitely a major upgrade, and it makes the build particularly powerful...but even without it, you're still a wizard with a large spellbook full of solid spells and a reserve feat, which is nothing to sneeze at.

[weckar]

If nothing else, this thread is giving me bunch of interesting viewpoints on wizarding and team play :)

[Azoth]

If nothing else, this thread is giving me bunch of interesting viewpoints on wizarding and team play :)

That is the funny thing about Wizards. You can play them a near infinite number of ways and still be good at being a wizard. No matter your theme, focus, or idea, there is a build and spell load out that will make it happen and competently.

It is only when you decide to try do everything and be good at it that you test your wings, and well I hope they aren't made of wax my friend.

[ryu]

That is the funny thing about Wizards. You can play them a near infinite number of ways and still be good at being a wizard. No matter your theme, focus, or idea, there is a build and spell load out that will make it happen and competently.

It is only when you decide to try do everything and be good at it that you test your wings, and well I hope they aren't made of wax my friend.

And this? This right here? This is another important reason I consider tier 1 the ideal benchmark of design. Tier 1 can be immediately accessible to a reasonably high degree of competency just by learning a few simple rules, but has a skill curve roughly equivalent to the spire leading up to sigil in terms of real potential.

[BearonVonMu]

If the rest of the players see arcane magic as underpowered, perhaps it might be best to go with a plain, simple wizard generalist.
If you get into the weeds with prestige classes, even if it amplifies your power immensely, it might instead tell those players that the prestige class was the powerful thing.
Maybe stick with the basics and don't worry about it if you don't explode their heads with unlimited cosmic power.
A base class with very little in the way of class features would show that the spells themselves had all of the carrying power, without even so much as a domain or martial prowess or heavy armor (since they see the cleric and druid as being so much better).

[Segev]

If you do go for straight Wizard, no PrC, you will benefit greatly from remembering that Scribe Scroll lets you stockpile spells that you don't want to waste spell slots on, but which are incidentally useful. I'm not suggesting you go overboard, but having scrolls of a few spells that you are tempted to prepare "just in case" some contrived or corner case comes up will increase your versatility greatly.

Craft Wand is similarly useful for spells you use semi-frequently, but not every day, and which might turn out to take up space on your prepped list if you're not careful.

For spells you use ALL THE TIME, consider Craft Wondrous Item, and make a command-activated one for them. (This will only work well for 1st and 2nd level spells; it gets much more expensive as you go above those.)

[Willie the Duck]

Hummingbird. Free improved initiative that stacks with all your other initiative boosters? Including actual improved initiative if you're going that route? Yes please.

Yes, that would also be on a list of things more tactically beneficial than the dog familiar. Very similar to getting +3 hp or +2 fort save.

[ryu]

Yes, that would also be on a list of things more tactically beneficial than the dog familiar. Very similar to getting +3 hp or +2 fort save.

I would call +4 initiative significantly bigger than either of those. Like... if you let me double both of those two and add them together into one better familiar I'd still take the hummingbird all day every day.

[weckar]

Plus: Hummingbirds are cuter.

[Willie the Duck]

Um, okay. An even bigger benefit then, that AvatarVecna isn't taking, and instead taking the dog familiar, which he worries might be cheesy. Thanks for girding my claim that he has nothing to worry about.

[ryu]

Um, okay. An even bigger benefit then, that AvatarVecna isn't taking, and instead taking the dog familiar, which he worries might be cheesy. Thanks for girding my claim that he has nothing to worry about.

The reason is that before we get into contingencies and reliable magical scry and die surprise rounds, initiative is the I go first button. The I go first button is important. Like really important. No seriously phenomenally important. This is why any wizard past a certain level is probably also packing nerveskitter and celerity. Huge. Just massive.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you do go for straight Wizard, no PrC, you will benefit greatly from remembering that Scribe Scroll lets you stockpile spells that you don't want to waste spell slots on, but which are incidentally useful. I'm not suggesting you go overboard, but having scrolls of a few spells that you are tempted to prepare "just in case" some contrived or corner case comes up will increase your versatility greatly.

Craft Wand is similarly useful for spells you use semi-frequently, but not every day, and which might turn out to take up space on your prepped list if you're not careful.

For spells you use ALL THE TIME, consider Craft Wondrous Item, and make a command-activated one for them. (This will only work well for 1st and 2nd level spells; it gets much more expensive as you go above those.)Remember that scrolls take 1 day per 1,000 gp in the base price -- and nothing says you can't scribe multiple spells onto one scroll in one day. Want to craft a scroll with 40 cantrips on it in a single day? You can totally do that.

[Beheld]

Remember that scrolls take 1 day per 1,000 gp in the base price -- and nothing says you can't scribe multiple spells onto one scroll in one day. Want to craft a scroll with 40 cantrips on it in a single day? You can totally do that.

Multiple spells on one scroll has always been weird, because like 90% of the rules are written as if that isn't possible, including the part where you activate the scroll as a standard action and it consumes the entire scroll to do that, so if there are multiple spells, either you can spam 20 save or dies in a single action, or 19 of them are wasted.

But then if you look at the random scroll generation, you are supposed to roll multiple spells for each scroll you drop...

I mean I guess it's a minor problem since literally every part of 3e magic items and wealth rules are terrible, but it still annoys me because I don't even know what they were aiming for in the first place.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Multiple spells on one scroll has always been weird, because like 90% of the rules are written as if that isn't possible, including the part where you activate the scroll as a standard action and it consumes the entire scroll to do that, so if there are multiple spells, either you can spam 20 save or dies in a single action, or 19 of them are wasted.

But then if you look at the random scroll generation, you are supposed to roll multiple spells for each scroll you drop...

I mean I guess it's a minor problem since literally every part of 3e magic items and wealth rules are terrible, but it still annoys me because I don't even know what they were aiming for in the first place.The first paragraph under "Scrolls" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) in the SRD says:


A scroll is a spell (or collection of spells) that has been stored in written form. A spell on a scroll can be used only once. The writing vanishes from the scroll when the spell is activated. Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell.Since it says "A spell on a scroll can be used only once," it indicates that the rest of the paragraph refers to the writing of that spell, rather than the entire scroll.

[AvatarVecna]

Um, okay. An even bigger benefit then, that AvatarVecna isn't taking, and instead taking the dog familiar, which he worries might be cheesy. Thanks for girding my claim that he has nothing to worry about.

I'm not worried about it being cheesy, because it's not; a +6 to a cross-class skill isn't OP, even if that skill is Diplomacy or UMD. I'm just saying that dogs aren't standard, and that dog familiar is what makes your Sense Motive passable, and a DM might want to only allow regular familiars.

[Fizban]

1. Which school should I spec in, if at all?

2. Which schools should be dropped?

3. At what ratio is gaining caster levels worth losing (or delaying) spell levels?

4. Assuming CL10 with a good helping of cheddar, what can I do to really show of what arcane might can be?
First rule of showing someone they're wrong is not using cheese. You don't need cheese to own the game as a wizard, so using cheese only undermines your point.

Take one normal specialization, none of this foucsed or elf generalist stuff. What to specialize and ban is entirely up to you, though depending on sources some schools with be better or worse. Lose no caster levels, you're playing a wizard.

All you really need to do is show them the basics. Hit them with Grease, Web, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles. Throw Magic Missiles at foes who are otherwise completely untouchable and Fireballs at groups. Suggest that people surrender unconditionally. Ennervate bosses. Bring a Lesser Rod of Empowering or Maximizing, use it not always but on the appropriate spells. Have a posse of skeletons because they're cheap and there's no reason not to. Have Overland Flight. If there's something you can't deal with right now, just buy a new spell and fix it. Or call an angel to do it for you. Be a Wizard.

I expect I know what the true problem will be, if it's not the DM putting restrictions on the class: it's the rest of the party. The fastest way to make a wizard look terrible to to leave them tactically unsupported. Just let people hit them in the face and say it's their fault, run into mobs so they can't throw AoEs, run into melee and foul their ranged touch spells with -4s from melee and soft cover, demand they waste spells on things they shouldn't, etc. That's what you need the cheese to cover, more spells more duration more defenses more unkillable more unstoppable. If they don't actively work against you then you shouldn't need much at all.

[Segev]

Backing up the "no cheese, go basic" suggestions. I will go so far as to say, "don't specialize." You don't need the extra spell per level per day, and you'll do more to demonstrate the versatility and power of the wizard if you have all the schools available to you.

If your party won't cooperate with you and, maliciously or foolishly, prevents you from being effective, build to counter that with your spell choices.

Stay in the back - nobody should ever argue that squishy wizards should not be in the front line; if they do, they're either idiots or trolls - and have a wind wall ready to go. This should keep most encounters from being able to "go for your face." (Wind wall will stop mundane projectiles.)

Go first. If you're going to optimize for anything, optimize for initiative. If you go before the rest of the party, you can get your battlefield control out before they can run in and blame you for your AoEs including them (or not being able to use your AoEs due to them being in the way). Dex is a FINE second-highest stat for a wizard, as it contributes to a weak save for your class as well as to your AC and your initiative.

As you acquire them, pick out spells that let you partition the battlefield without requiring AoEs. Wall of force is a mid-level one that's excellent for this. Also look for buff spells, because you can always use those when your allies are preventing you from dropping AoE debuffs. Haste is always popular, and you can cast that even when your idiot fighters are hopelessly entangled with the enemy, and it will still help them.

Around the time you have access to wall of force, you'll also have overland flight. If your party doesn't appreciate all-work-day-long 3D mobility, then get yourself something nice for the spell slot for a day or two and then see if they like it better.


One thing that a buff-focused caster of any sort can do, too, is find spells that their allies love to have cast on them, and then suggest to those allies that, if they buy you a Pearl of Power of the appropriate level, you can prepare the spell once and cast it multiple times - once for each of them - and still have spells left for later in the day. A Pearl of Power is often cheaper than a 1/day item, and will let you cast it at your full CL (including any metamagic you might use, like, say, Extend).


Ultimately, you can play around your allies if they get in your way, and still make them shine in ways that will be noticed by their absence if you take away your support. AoE debuffs like grease and black tentacles can be used to cut off retreat for enemies, or to cover your own for your allies, as well. And can be placed to catch just the back row of baddies if your allies are determined to prevent you from cutting off more efficient chunks while they chew on the remainder.

[Willie the Duck]

Yeah, it's definitely a major upgrade, and it makes the build particularly powerful...but even without it, you're still a wizard with a large spellbook full of solid spells and a reserve feat, which is nothing to sneeze at.

If you don't have access to Uncannny Forethought, are there other tricks you (or anyone else) prefer for the old wizard issue of "I memorized the wrong spells" situation. I know one of the main arguments that the fireball wizard fans use a lot is that if you are going for a batman wizard, you always end up memorizing a knock when what you really needed was a spiderclimb, but a wizard will undoubtedly find a use for a fireball.

[Segev]

If you don't have access to Uncannny Forethought, are there other tricks you (or anyone else) prefer for the old wizard issue of "I memorized the wrong spells" situation. I know one of the main arguments that the fireball wizard fans use a lot is that if you are going for a batman wizard, you always end up memorizing a knock when what you really needed was a spiderclimb, but a wizard will undoubtedly find a use for a fireball.

Without delving into Uncanny Forethought, you can have that knock when you need it without eating up a spell slot by scribing a scroll with it. Knock is one of the spells ideally suited to having "just in case" scrolls, because it doesn't really matter what the caster level of it is. Keep your eye out for such incidental, useful spells that you won't always need (especially since you hopefully will have other party members who usually can do it...so when you pull out the scroll because they've been unable, for once, you're the hero) and which don't rely on caster level for their power. Scrolls are ideal ways to keep them around.

[AvatarVecna]

If you don't have access to Uncannny Forethought, are there other tricks you (or anyone else) prefer for the old wizard issue of "I memorized the wrong spells" situation. I know one of the main arguments that the fireball wizard fans use a lot is that if you are going for a batman wizard, you always end up memorizing a knock when what you really needed was a spiderclimb, but a wizard will undoubtedly find a use for a fireball.

To quote an evoker:

:vaarsuvius: "As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero."

An alternative I've seen suggested in some threads on the subject is to leave some slots unprepared, and you can prepare a spell in that slot later in the day when you've realized you need that slot for that spell. Not a perfect solution, and obviously vastly inferior to Uncanny Forethought, but it's an option from the PHB, so it should be valid.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you don't have access to Uncannny Forethought, are there other tricks you (or anyone else) prefer for the old wizard issue of "I memorized the wrong spells" situation. I know one of the main arguments that the fireball wizard fans use a lot is that if you are going for a batman wizard, you always end up memorizing a knock when what you really needed was a spiderclimb, but a wizard will undoubtedly find a use for a fireball.Spontaneous divination allows you to sacrifice a spell (or spell slot) for any divination spell of your choice.

And you can go domain wizard -- or take Arcane Disciple/Catalogues of Enlightenment -- and Domain Spontaneity to spontaneously cast from whatever domains you choose. Spontaneously casting summoning spells like a druid can be a fantastic use for practically any spell slot, especially when Rapid Spell comes into play.

[BearonVonMu]

-snip- Spontaneously casting summoning spells like a druid -snip-
While it is true that adding spontaneous spell selection to a wizard increases their strength, this all started from a premise of "druids and clerics are great, while wizards are not". Making your wizard work like a druid or cleric could easily be seen as "in order to make your wizard work well, you have to make them function like a druid or cleric".

[MaxiDuRaritry]

While it is true that adding spontaneous spell selection to a wizard increases their strength, this all started from a premise of "druids and clerics are great, while wizards are not". Making your wizard work like a druid or cleric could easily be seen as "in order to make your wizard work well, you have to make them function like a druid or cleric".There are other spells on domain lists that work fantastically for spontaneous wizard casting, as well. You just have to look around for them.

[Endarire]

@Weckar: Tell us what you decided on, what your team's reaction was, and other relevant results.