Tiny PC Race

[Kesnit]

One of my players has a strange character concept and has asked for my help in building it - a Hedgehog Bard. I could not find 3.5 stats for a Hedgehog (which I was going to Awaken), but did find Pathfinder. The Hedgehog has a base CHA of 10, which would make it a crappy Bard. So we moved to our next idea - a Werehedgehog. The player knows she will have to accept the LA adjustment for the were template and is OK with that.

However, the template can only be put on Humanoids and Giants, and the base creature must be within 1 size category of the animal form. (Hedgehogs are Diminutive.) We haven't been able to find any Tiny or Diminutive Humanoid without an excessive LA. She'd like LA +0, but that isn't likely, we know. Are there any LA +1 Tiny Humanoids?

Our other option is to take a race with a higher LA and take away racial stuff until their LA is down to +1. She did find one possible race in a 3rd party book:


+2 WIS, +2 CHA, -2 STR
Tiny
Fey
Low-light vision
+2 Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive
Spell-like abilities: Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Mending (1/day each). Enlarge (self and personal possessions only). Additional spell-like abilities base on CHA mod.

LA +2

My thought was to remove the Fey type and the Spell-like abilities and give it an LA of +1. Would that be reasonable?

[Bronk]

One of my players has a strange character concept and has asked for my help in building it - a Hedgehog Bard. I could not find 3.5 stats for a Hedgehog (which I was going to Awaken), but did find Pathfinder. The Hedgehog has a base CHA of 10, which would make it a crappy Bard. So we moved to our next idea - a Werehedgehog. The player knows she will have to accept the LA adjustment for the were template and is OK with that.

However, the template can only be put on Humanoids and Giants, and the base creature must be within 1 size category of the animal form. (Hedgehogs are Diminutive.) We haven't been able to find any Tiny or Diminutive Humanoid without an excessive LA. She'd like LA +0, but that isn't likely, we know. Are there any LA +1 Tiny Humanoids?

Our other option is to take a race with a higher LA and take away racial stuff until their LA is down to +1. She did find one possible race in a 3rd party book:


+2 WIS, +2 CHA, -2 STR
Tiny
Fey
Low-light vision
+2 Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive
Spell-like abilities: Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Mending (1/day each). Enlarge (self and personal possessions only). Additional spell-like abilities base on CHA mod.

LA +2

My thought was to remove the Fey type and the Spell-like abilities and give it an LA of +1. Would that be reasonable?

I'm sure there's more than one kind of hedgehog... the only one I've ever seen was only a little smaller than a cat, and way bigger than a rat, so could easily be the right size. I think it would be easier for you to just rule that the hedgehog is tiny, and maybe add some hedgehog traits to the stats for a rat.

[weckar]

Away from book, but wouldn't a Petal be a closer fit?

[Lokiron]

The Hedgehog has a base CHA of 10, which would make it a crappy Bard.

Do you have to use the base array? Can you not point buy or roll?

[atemu1234]

Do you have to use the base array? Can you not point buy or roll?

That is, in fact, typically what you do.

I think he may be referring to the fact that most people play bards with races with natural charisma bonuses though (star elves spring to mind, along with spellscales, and sparks).

Maybe a Spark Awakened Hedgehog? (today on sentences I never thought I would see myself write)

Get it the Dragonblood subtype, then have it start wrecking face with DFI? Maybe have it sit on the wizard's shoulder the entire fight, and disguise itself as a familiar?

[Inevitability]

Don't forget Awaken adds 1d3 points of charisma. Just let the player take the average and you'll have a +2 charisma race.

[Metahuman1]

Precisely. There's no need for this were-creature approach.




Edit:

Just remember to give it the Melodic Casting Feat, some Blue Dye, and Boots of Haste with that dragon fire inspiration feat. Oh, and make sure it's DFI is Sonic Based.


Wouldn't due for it's theme song not to give it a power up after all. XD!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoXP2tMmv7Y

I'll see myself out now. =)

[Darrin]

Muckdweller (Serpent Kingdom) with the Human Heritage feat (Races of Destiny) might work... Charisma -2 though, so not ideal for bard. Throwing the Magic-Blooded template (Dragon #306) on there would only bring it up to average. Jermlaine (MM2) is even worse... Cha 5 on a fey?

I'd be tempted to take Tibbit and just refluff the cat form as a hedgehog.

Aha. Oriental Adventures has Hengeyokai, which are humanoid shapechangers with LA +0 (as per the 3.5 update in Dragon #318). It has stats for several tiny-sized forms, including badger, cat, hare, monkey, rat, and weasel. So you could either use, say, a badger as a hedgehog and use awaken or the Anthropomorphic Animal template (Savage Species) on that. Or a hengeyokai bitten by a lycanthrope in tiny form could contract lycanthropy.

[atemu1234]

Precisely. There's no need for this were-creature approach.




Edit:

Just remember to give it the Melodic Casting Feat, some Blue Dye, and Boots of Haste with that dragon fire inspiration feat. Oh, and make sure it's DFI is Sonic Based.


Wouldn't due for it's theme song not to give it a power up after all. XD!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoXP2tMmv7Y

I'll see myself out now. =)

"Why is that hedgehog screamsinging Nickelback?"

[MisterKaws]

3.5's Hedgehog is on the DMG, under Alternate Familiars by Master Size.

Here's the post-awakening creature stats, because I have too much free time:

Hedgehog, Awakened
Diminutive Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 2d10(14 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 15ft.(3 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+4 size, +1 Dex, +2 Natural) touch 15, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-16
Attack: Bite +7 (1d3-4)
Full Attack: Bite +7 (1d3-4)
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Poison
Special Qualities: Defensive Ball
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: As Magical Beast (2+Int), +12 Size bonus to Hide
Feats: Weapon Finesse

Poison (Ex): When in a defensive ball (see below), spines poison foes touching the hedgehog; injury, Fortitude DC 10, initial and secondary damage 1d2 Dex.
Defensive Ball (Ex): Rolls into a ball as a standard action, granting a +2 circumstance bonus on saves and AC. Unrolling is a free action.

The DMG version had 1HD by default for it, but that's probably because it's intended to be used solely as a familiar, so I considered that it had either 1/2 or 1/4 HD

Also, after you awaken it, you need to use the Awakened creature's stats as modifiers and roll the dice normally.

I could make an Anthro-version too, if you want. Would probably be LA 0 with those stats, so you could template cheese to decrease the base Hedgehog's -6 Cha racial.

[Thurbane]

In regards to a Tiny Humanoid, you could take any small Humanoid and apply a permanent Reduce Person - watch out for Dispel Magic though.

Otherwise, Incarnate Construct on a Tiny humanoid-shaped construct.

[Inevitability]

In regards to a Tiny Humanoid, you could take any small Humanoid and apply a permanent Reduce Person - watch out for Dispel Magic though.

Why not use the Ring of Reduction (LoM) instead? It's more expensive, but isn't as vulnerable to dispels and you can shut off the effect in situations where being large would be helpful.

[Ruethgar]

Kobold has slight build to let you count as tiny when advantageous, would be a bit odd though. Btw 3.5 DMG p203 has the hedgehog. There is a Dragon Magazine that has the MMI Awakened Animal ECLs listed if you wanted to use that as a guide, AFB ATM but it would probably be ECL 0 along with the rat, cat, weasel, toad, and lizard.

[daremetoidareyo]

Badger or raccoon dog hengeyokai?

[Thurbane]

Why not use the Ring of Reduction (LoM) instead? It's more expensive, but isn't as vulnerable to dispels and you can shut off the effect in situations where being large would be helpful.

Excellent point. Although some DMs are a bit "iffy" about letting items qualify you for templates etc. I suppose if a DM would let a permanent spell count for a req, a magic item shouldn't be a problem.

If you're open to homebrew, here's one that looks pretty decent - Talifarin (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?5881-new-race-Talifarin-(hedgehog-people)) (although you'd be stuck with 2RHD, and be Small rather than Tiny or smaller):


Talifarin (Hedgehog People)
Small Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 2d8+6 (15 hp)
Initiative: +2 (Dex)
Speed: 20 ft., burrow 10 ft.
AC: 17 (+1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural)
Attacks: 2 claws +2 melee, bite +0 melee, or weapon +2 melee
Damage: claw 1d4, bite 1d6, or by weapon
Face/Reach: 5 ft by 5 ft/ 5 ft
Special Attacks: bowl
Special Qualities: defensive roll, quills
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +4
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Tumbling +7, Spot +6, Listen +6, Hide +6, Move silently +6
Feats: Multiattack
Climate/Terrain: any land and underground
Organization: troupe (3 - 8), clan (12 - 20), or village (21 - 40)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: standard
Alignment: usually neutral
Advancement: by character class

Talifarins are humanoid hedgehogs, simple and industrious.

Short, with broad backs and shoulders, Talifarins have dextrous little hands tipped with strong claws suitable for digging. Their backs are covered with the dense hide and quills characteristic of a hedgehog, and they are fully capable of rolling themselves up into a ball.

Talifarins typically live in hilly areas, carving networks of burrows and tunnels by tool and claw. They tend to live in loose clans, although larger clusters of Talifarins will cooperate as a village, placing the elders on a council to oversee the cooperation and proper functioning of the community. Talifarin tend to have a great rapport with halflings.

Combat:
Talifarins avoid combat unless they are defending their homes and children. They will fight viciously with claws or weapons. They don't often wield weapons, but occasionally use shortswords and daggers. They prefer to battle in tunnels, but will fight in open air if necessary, occasionally holding longspears or other polearms while bowling, to trip 2 or 3 people at a time.

Defensive Roll (Ex): As a partial action, Talifarins can roll up into a ball, gaining a +4 bonus to AC and a +2 to all saving throws. Anyone making an unarmed melee attack will be hit by its quills (See below).

Bowl (Ex): As a standard action, a Talifarin can charge an opponent by curling into a ball and rolling towards them. With a successful attack (+2 melee, plus all bonuses and penalties for a charge, as well as bonuses for being in a Defensive Roll), and a successful Tumbling roll (DC 15) their roll inflicts 2d4 points of quill damage, plus quill poison (see below), and they can make a trip action as if they had the Improved Trip feat, with a +2 bonus to their attempt. On a failed Tumbling roll, they simply miss.

When used in conjunction with a longspear, polearm, or other long staff-like weapon, all opponents in a 10-foot-wide path must make Reflex saves (DC 14) or be knocked prone.

Quills (Ex): A Talifarin's back is covered with quills, and when attacked with an unarmed melee attack while in their defensive roll, or when grappled, these quills inflict 1d4 damage upon the attacker, and a weak poison at the tips causes 1d2 temporary Str/ 1d2 temporary Str unless a Fort save is made (DC 14).

As Characters:
A Talifarin's favored class is rogue. Rarely do they become spellcasters, but when they do they almost exclusively take levels in druid or cleric--Talifarin sorcerors and wizards are almost unheard of. Talifarin clerics have access to Animal, Earth, Healing and Plant domains.

[MisterKaws]

Excellent point. Although some DMs are a bit "iffy" about letting items qualify you for templates etc. I suppose if a DM would let a permanent spell count for a req, a magic item shouldn't be a problem.

If you're open to homebrew, here's one that looks pretty decent - Talifarin (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?5881-new-race-Talifarin-(hedgehog-people)) (although you'd be stuck with 2RHD, and be Small rather than Tiny or smaller)

This one seems pretty good, but I'd remove that silly Con bonus, put a -2 to Str and Dex(Making the race a -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis), and reduce it to 1HD. Those stats are fairly balanced, when compared to other LA +0 races(Looking at you, Whisper Gnome and Anthropomorphic Bat). If you really want to "balance" it, I suppose removing the Burrow speed could work, but since you're going on such a high level that you can have a Lycanthrope/Bard, the Burrow speed would barely make any difference.

[Kesnit]

In regards to a Tiny Humanoid, you could take any small Humanoid and apply a permanent Reduce Person - watch out for Dispel Magic though.

Otherwise, Incarnate Construct on a Tiny humanoid-shaped construct.

Incarnate Construct may work. I mentioned it to the player and she was OK with it.


Why not use the Ring of Reduction (LoM) instead? It's more expensive, but isn't as vulnerable to dispels and you can shut off the effect in situations where being large would be helpful.

The idea is to spend all her time as a hedgehog. She jokes about being the Halfling Cleric's "hat."


Kobold has slight build to let you count as tiny when advantageous, would be a bit odd though. Btw 3.5 DMG p203 has the hedgehog. There is a Dragon Magazine that has the MMI Awakened Animal ECLs listed if you wanted to use that as a guide, AFB ATM but it would probably be ECL 0 along with the rat, cat, weasel, toad, and lizard.

Kobold isn't as weird as it may seem, since the party already has a NPC Kobold Rogue (after I kicked out the guy who was playing a Rogue-like character).


If you're open to homebrew,

I had to make a rule of "No Homebrew" after said Rogue-player came in with 2 homebrew feats and a homebrew skill trick that he wanted to take at 9th level. (They were all way overpowered.)


Do you have to use the base array? Can you not point buy or roll?

My first thought was "no," but then I asked myself why I couldn't. Then again, the hedgehog's -6 racial to CHA is going to hurt a Bard.


I think he may be referring to the fact that most people play bards with races with natural charisma bonuses though (star elves spring to mind, along with spellscales, and sparks).

Or at least don't take races with negative to CHA.


Maybe a Spark Awakened Hedgehog? (today on sentences I never thought I would see myself write)

Where and what is "Spark?"


Get it the Dragonblood subtype, then have it start wrecking face with DFI?

I'm a little iffy about DFI. I had a Bard that used it before, and it made combat rather pointless. Adding 5d6 to every hit meant enemies went down way too fast. Adding HP to everything was a bit too obvious, and turned combat into slog-fests. None of my players at the time used tactics, though I did, which meant every battle was either "they kill everything in one round" or "near TPK."


Maybe have it sit on the wizard's Cleric's shoulder the entire fight, and disguise itself as a familiar hat?

The party does not actually have a wizard at the moment. (The other party member is a Fighter/BArbarian/Warblade.)


Just remember to give it the Melodic Casting Feat, some Blue Dye, and Boots of Haste with that dragon fire inspiration feat. Oh, and make sure it's DFI is Sonic Based.

I knew someone would bring that up. :smalleek:

[Thurbane]

So what would the stats on a Incarnate Tiny Animated Object Were Hedgehog look like? I'm AFB at the moment - sources: Savage Species, Monster Manual/SRD,and DMG (hedgehog).

This would be 100% RAW option for the character.

[Kesnit]

So what would the stats on a Incarnate Tiny Diminutive Animated Object Were Hedgehog look like? I'm AFB at the moment - sources: Savage Species, Monster Manual/SRD,and DMG (hedgehog).

This would be 100% RAW option for the character.

Forgot to mention that if I went with the Incarnate Construct, I'd skip the were template and just make her look like a hedgehog. Who would be blue. But would NOT have Boots of Speed! :smalltongue:

[Troacctid]

So what would the stats on a Incarnate Tiny Animated Object Were Hedgehog look like? I'm AFB at the moment - sources: Savage Species, Monster Manual/SRD,and DMG (hedgehog).

This would be 100% RAW option for the character.
Unplayable as a PC due to LA: —.

[Thurbane]

Unplayable as a PC due to LA: —.

Well...yes, apart from that. It would be 100% RAW as an NPC then. :smalltongue:

[Ruethgar]

So what would the stats on a Incarnate Tiny Animated Object Were Hedgehog look like? I'm AFB at the moment - sources: Savage Species, Monster Manual/SRD,and DMG (hedgehog).

This would be 100% RAW option for the character.

Except Tiny Animated Objects have a massive 5 ECL, -2 isn't going to do much to help that.


Unplayable as a PC due to LA: —.

A dragon magazine gave them ECLs, they also mentioned that they aren't very playable with Int - but gave them and all of the MMI monsters ECLs anyway.

Also, I meant a Were-Hedgehog Kobold would be strange, not just a normal Kobold. The Hybrid form would be horrifying.

[LTwerewolf]

Also, I meant a Were-Hedgehog Kobold would be strange, not just a normal Kobold. The Hybrid form would be horrifying.

Not all that horrifying. Probably something akin to this (http://rt-bi.nl/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/thorny-02.jpg).

[Thurbane]

Except Tiny Animated Objects have a massive 5 ECL, -2 isn't going to do much to help that.

I may be missing something, but where is ECL 5 coming from? Is this in the Dragon Magazine you mention?

[Heliomance]

Where and what is "Spark?"



Magic-Blooded template out of some Dragon Mag or other. +2 Cha, -2 Wis, and a couple of other minor perks which I forget, for 0 LA.

[ComaVision]

Easy version: Take the hedgehog stats you found, apply the Dire template (also Pathfinder), then make a WereDireHedgehog from any small or medium race.

[ShurikVch]

3.5 version of Mite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mite_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)) was printed in Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene as LA +0 Tiny Humanoid

[Thurbane]

Easy version: Take the hedgehog stats you found, apply the Dire template (also Pathfinder), then make a WereDireHedgehog from any small or medium race.

There's also a dire template in the Tome of Horrors Revised, if you want a specifically 3.5 version rather than pathfinder.

[ShurikVch]

Why not the Hedgehog Hengeyokai?

[Kesnit]

Easy version: Take the hedgehog stats you found, apply the Dire template (also Pathfinder), then make a WereDireHedgehog from any small or medium race.


There's also a dire template in the Tome of Horrors Revised, if you want a specifically 3.5 version rather than pathfinder.

I'll look at that template.


Why not the Hedgehog Hengeyokai?

That is the current plan. I showed OA to the player and we thought we could work with that. I haven't had a chance to actually build yet, though.

[Gruftzwerg]

+1 for the idea to use a Kobold.

+2 for the Dragonwrought Kobold:
For 1 Feat you gain, no aging penalties (and some other goodies). Means you can have +3 to Int, Wis, Cha. Would counter the -4 to Cha for the hedgehog a bit too. Everything without any LA.
Further you can "Alter Self" into Dragons (only wymlings due to size and HD restriction) for early cheese (fly, Natural Armor).

I mean, what could be more hilarious than a lil hedgehog turning into a Dragon as it's "true" combat form? xD