Shield Master Paladin - how does it work?

[HammeredWharf]

I've been making a new for a 5e game and having some trouble with it. I've seen people praising Shield Master Paladins on multiple occasions, but after actually making one and looks at the numbers, I'm not impressed. For starters, here are the rules:

Lvl 6
Only PHB allowed
Shield Master can shove before attacking

So, I made the following min-maxed build:

Half-elf
Str 16
Dex 8
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 16

Paladin of the Ancients 6
Shield Master + Dueling

Now, aside from my personal dislike of having only 8s and 16s, and the mechanical disadvantage of having awful initiative, and the effect 8 wis has on my social skills, this looks ok at first. However, then I look at my shoving capabilities and they're kinda disappointing. Of course, I'm proficient in Athletics, but that only gives me a +6 for shoving. I assume many melee opponents will either have decent Athletics or Acrobatics, so I'm looking at something like a 60% success rate. That's a 60% chance to get advantage on my attacks and my team's attacks, on one opponent per round, if we're lucky and the enemy doesn't get up before my team can whack it, if my team isn't using ranged attacks. That chance also prevents me from using bonus action spells, of which there are many. My own DPR (19) is nothing to write home about.

I could use my Nature's Wrath or Ensnaring Smite to keep enemies down, but the former is an action and the latter is a bonus action, so either way they conflict with my attack routine. That's aside from Nature's Wrath letting the opponent to choose their save, so it's a bit underwhelming for a 1 / short rest resource. It could work on casters, but I can't prevent them from casting, so it feels a bit pointless.

I've considered multiclassing with Rogue to get Expertise, but that's also not a great idea on closer inspection. My Dex sucks, and I'm already quite MAD. I need to be durable, since I'm going to be the frontliner. I can't be Dex-based, because the whole point is being good at shoving, so I need heavy armor proficiency. I could lower my Con to 14 and get the 13 Dex needed to MC into Rogue, but in addition to being wasteful that would delay my access to some of Paladin's signature abilities like the auras, and the second ability point increase. It looks like it's not worth it, even with the damage bonus from Sneak Attack.

tl;dr: I wanted to be a cool shield-bashing hero, but focusing on Shield Master seems really underwhelming. Am I supposed to take it as a minor perk and hope it works sometimes?

[JellyPooga]

Reconsider that Rogue Multiclass, or start considering either Barbarian or Bard.

As you say, a flat +6 Athletics isn't going to get you too far when Shoving. You want Expertise (Rogue), Advantage on the Strength check (Barbarian) or both (Bard).

Lore Bard 3/Paladin X is all you need. Not only does it give you a 2 spell-level boost, but gives you some extra skill proficiencies, Expertise and Enhance Ability. Solid.

Also, you might want to take another look at your Ability Scores. Half-Elf gets +2 Charisma, putting you at 17. You can afford to take a point out and bump Dex, Int or Wis up by 2. I'd also consider dropping Con or Cha to 14 and bolstering other stats; at least to negate the negative mod on Wisdom and Dexterity; they'll hurt a lot in the long run, even with Charisma boosting them.

Str:15+1, Dex:10, Con:15+1, Int:8, Wis:11, Cha:12+2

With a mind to pick up Resilient (Wis) at a later date, is a solid array for what you have in mind.

[some guy]

Stats: with point buy , you still should be able to raise a stat to 10. Or lower Con and raise all those 8's to 10's (or 12,10,8).

I'm playing a paladin from 2 to 6, and a +5 to +7 for my athletics has served me quite well. Most of the creatures didn't have that high of an opposing score.
As for the bonus spells vs. the the shield shove, a lvl 6 paladin doesn't have that many spells per day, while a shove is at will. A prone creature also gives you a bigger chance to crit, which is a big plus for a paladin (gotta smite those crits!).

I'm enjoying it very much, even if my shove is useful 50% of the battle (that's still 50% of every battle!). But the use of a shove-paladin might vary table from table, I would advise to check what your team will play, with 1 or 2 extra people in melee it will be worth it.

[Zman]

Ok, well you are missing some key things or at least undervaluing them.

Getting Advantage on your melee attacks 60% of the time is huge. Advantage means you have a 9.75% chance per attack to Crit, crits mean doubled Smite Dice which reall adds up. Advantage is over a 35% increase in damage plus a small amount of board control.

Now, I don't think you need to be that MinMax, I'd drop Con to a 14 and bump up some secondaries.

The Multiclass you really want is Bard 3, gives you a bunch of spells slots, useful spells, and most importantly gives you Expertise in Athletics, and gives you Jack of All Trades for half Prof to Initiative. All without needing 13 Dex.

[gfishfunk]

Half-elf
Str 16
Dex 8
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 16

Paladin of the Ancients 6
Shield Master + Dueling

Now, aside from my personal dislike of having only 8s and 16s, and the mechanical disadvantage of having awful initiative, and the effect 8 wis has on my social skills, this looks ok at first. However, then I look at my shoving capabilities and they're kinda disappointing. Of course, I'm proficient in Athletics, but that only gives me a +6 for shoving. I assume many melee opponents will either have decent Athletics or Acrobatics, so I'm looking at something like a 60% success rate. That's a 60% chance to get advantage on my attacks and my team's attacks, on one opponent per round, if we're lucky and the enemy doesn't get up before my team can whack it, if my team isn't using ranged attacks. That chance also prevents me from using bonus action spells, of which there are many. My own DPR (19) is nothing to write home about.

The stat issue would be true whether or not you were focusing on shield bashing. That just looks like a min-maxed paladin stats, regardless of what you are doing.

Shield bashing is a role that focuses on helping others. Your damage will be lower (but you can smite), but other melee classes should have a better time of it since their attacks will have advantage.

Shield bashing at lower levels is not great (without expertise), but once you get a higher proficiency bonus it gets better.

From the MM, not all melee types have trained skills. You will generally have the advantage on such attacks.

[MrStabby]

A couple of other things to remember: 1 you have a higher AC than most as you can wear plate and a shield. 2 bonus to Dex saves.

Both of these things seem like you didn't factor them in.

On the shoving prone thing, you don't have to use it all the time. If you are up against something huge and strong use something else.

The package as a whole is great because it has flexible and diverse benefits

[HammeredWharf]

Bard 3 does look really good in this case, although it would mean either getting the feat a level later or using Variant Human, which I'm not even sure is allowed. I'm not too keen on delaying the access to auras and Extra Attack, but Bard's features seem worth it. I guess lowering Con to 14 to balance the other stats - and calculating PB right this time - would also be a good idea, especially since I won't have access to Aura of Protection for a while. Having to take Bard levels to push people around seems a bit counter-intuitive, but I can live with that.

Makes me wonder, though: wouldn't Polearm Master with quarterstaff & shield generally be a better choice even for a shoving build like this? I think you can use its extra attack to shove, and as cool as the other benefits of Shield Master are, they're not as good as attacking (and potentially shoving) things when they get into your reach.

[Grod_The_Giant]

From the MM, not all melee types have trained skills. You will generally have the advantage on such attacks.
Monsters generally don't have skills at all; even Proficiency is a notable advantage.

[MrStabby]

Bard 3 does look really good in this case, although it would mean either getting the feat a level later or using Variant Human, which I'm not even sure is allowed. I'm not too keen on delaying the access to auras and Extra Attack, but Bard's features seem worth it. I guess lowering Con to 14 to balance the other stats - and calculating PB right this time - would also be a good idea, especially since I won't have access to Aura of Protection for a while. Having to take Bard levels to push people around seems a bit counter-intuitive, but I can live with that.

Makes me wonder, though: wouldn't Polearm Master with quarterstaff & shield generally be a better choice even for a shoving build like this? I think you can use its extra attack to shove, and as cool as the other benefits of Shield Master are, they're not as good as attacking (and potentially shoving) things when they get into your reach.

Polearm master does work nearly as well, you are correct. Some of the choice just depends on what you want as your extras.

As to bard progression, I would be tempted to take paladin to 6 first, picking up the feat on the way. All the levels are so good and s&b isn't that weak without it. Levels 7 to 9 for bard give you more spells, more bonus actions and importantly more smite slots. It's a fun build.

[Zman]

Bard 3 does look really good in this case, although it would mean either getting the feat a level later or using Variant Human, which I'm not even sure is allowed. I'm not too keen on delaying the access to auras and Extra Attack, but Bard's features seem worth it. I guess lowering Con to 14 to balance the other stats - and calculating PB right this time - would also be a good idea, especially since I won't have access to Aura of Protection for a while. Having to take Bard levels to push people around seems a bit counter-intuitive, but I can live with that.

Makes me wonder, though: wouldn't Polearm Master with quarterstaff & shield generally be a better choice even for a shoving build like this? I think you can use its extra attack to shove, and as cool as the other benefits of Shield Master are, they're not as good as attacking (and potentially shoving) things when they get into your reach.

I'd recommend Paladin 6 First, the Bard 3.

PAM is good, and can make you good at shoving, with the alternative for extra damage if you don't shove. D10 with GWF is less than a D8 with Dueling, you do not get the +2 AC from a Shield, you do not get the +2 Dex Save, but you do get the Reaction attack and Reach. It is a pretty solid tradeoff IMO. PAM pulls way ahead damage wise at level 11 for Improved Smite.


Monsters generally don't have skills at all; even Proficiency is a notable advantage.

This is very true. Expertise is just gravy.


Polearm master does work nearly as well, you are correct. Some of the choice just depends on what you want as your extras.

As to bard progression, I would be tempted to take paladin to 6 first, picking up the feat on the way. All the levels are so good and s&b isn't that weak without it. Levels 7 to 9 for bard give you more spells, more bonus actions and importantly more smite slots. It's a fun build.

I agree with all of this.

[SharkForce]

yeah, one thing to be clear on: most melee type enemies do not, in fact, have athletics proficiency at all. there are, i think, about 10 monsters that have proficiency. about half of those are different kinds of giants.

this is not to say that multiclassing to get expertise is a horrible thing or anything like that... expertise is very handy, and increases the reliability of your shove ability even more.

but seriously, +5 or +6 athletics will let you semi-reliably shove most of the creatures that you are large enough to be able to attempt to shove. athletics proficiency is super rare. if the only thing about multiclassing that appeals to you is expertise, i'd stick with paladin. if you look at bard and you see a *lot* of things that interest you, then go right ahead though.

[JellyPooga]

As to bard progression, I would be tempted to take paladin to 6 first, picking up the feat on the way. All the levels are so good and s&b isn't that weak without it. Levels 7 to 9 for bard give you more spells, more bonus actions and importantly more smite slots. It's a fun build.

Yeah, I'll give a vote of confidence for this, too. I might even say going Paladin 7 or 8 before hitting Bard might be advisable; Ancients Paladin for Aura of Warding at 7th is awesomesauce. Then go Bard 3, bringing you up to 10th level. At 11th, go back to Paladin, grab your second ASI/Feat and another spell level (4th) before moving on from there.

[HammeredWharf]

Looks like shoving with PAM is a bit harder that I initially thought, because you can only shove during the Attack action, which means no 3.5-like shoving with reactions or bonus actions. Still a good option to consider. I suppose I'll go with Paladin until 7. As mentioned, Aura of Warding is awesome, and I think I can live with smaller numbers for a while. Thanks for all the advice so far!


Monsters generally don't have skills at all; even Proficiency is a notable advantage.

Part of the problem - which I should've mentioned earlier - is that my DM really likes his custom humanoid monsters. The campaign itself is about killing some crazy dwarves, so I fully expect most enemies to have Athletic and decent Str scores. Because that would make sense (to him), and he's big on making sense. Actually, I'm afraid the campaign will be full of some dwarven battleragers with advantage on Str checks, but there's not much one can do about that. Other than cry silently.

[NNescio]

Part of the problem - which I should've mentioned earlier - is that my DM really likes his custom humanoid monsters. The campaign itself is about killing some crazy dwarves, so I fully expect most enemies to have Athletic and decent Str scores. Because that would make sense (to him), and he's big on making sense. Actually, I'm afraid the campaign will be full of some dwarven battleragers with advantage on Str checks, but there's not much one can do about that. Other than cry silently.

Abuse ball bearings.

[JellyPooga]

Actually, I'm afraid the campaign will be full of some dwarven battleragers with advantage on Str checks, but there's not much one can do about that. Other than cry silently.

If you're going to cry about it, I'm afraid we'll have to revoke your Paladin license. The appropriate response to Dwarf Battleragers is simple; bring a keg or two of ale each and shout "Free Bar!". Instant distraction, long-term intoxication...good times had by all. Especially if you took those Bard levels and brought a lute to rock-out on (Dwarves like Rock&Metal music).

[gfishfunk]

Part of the problem - which I should've mentioned earlier - is that my DM really likes his custom humanoid monsters. The campaign itself is about killing some crazy dwarves, so I fully expect most enemies to have Athletic and decent Str scores. Because that would make sense (to him), and he's big on making sense. Actually, I'm afraid the campaign will be full of some dwarven battleragers with advantage on Str checks, but there's not much one can do about that. Other than cry silently.

Based on that, I would not go shield master at all.

If you want a trip master, go battlemaster fighter for tripping attack. I believe (maybe?) that it requires a DEX save instead, which would be more effective for this campaign.

If you want to have some fun with the concept, get the Command spell and tell them 'Lay' (though I prefer 'disrobe' as my one-word command. They inevitably also have to drop their weapon and then begin removing armor).

DM preferences and tactics can change any 'optimal' build into utter crap. Building against your DM can make the game more interesting for you and the DM.

[NNescio]

Based on that, I would not go shield master at all.

If you want a trip master, go battlemaster fighter for tripping attack. I believe (maybe?) that it requires a DEX save instead, which would be more effective for this campaign.

If you want to have some fun with the concept, get the Command spell and tell them 'Lay' (though I prefer 'disrobe' as my one-word command. They inevitably also have to drop their weapon and then begin removing armor).

DM preferences and tactics can change any 'optimal' build into utter crap. Building against your DM can make the game more interesting for you and the DM.

Well, if you're building specifically against Axe Idiots (or well, stupid melee enemies in general), PAM + Sentinel will stop them cold. PAM + Relentless Avenger (for Vengeance Pallies) can also let you back off (not as good as Sentinel though for avoiding the axe idiots).

If UA is on the table, pick the Tunnel Fighter fighting style, which makes OAs not consume your reaction if you spend a bonus action to set up a defensive stance. Combine with PAM and Relentless Avenger (DON'T pick Sentinel!), and you get to 5ft step (or more, up to half your speed, but eh, you just need 5 ft) backwards on every OA to set up another potential PAM OA strike, similar to the ol' Half Ogre Spring Attack Combat Reflexes spiked chain Fighter from 3.5e.

I've a feeling the axe idiots will charge blindly into you and get matador'd to death. 5ft step backwards, stab, 5ft step backwards, stab, repeat.

Just make sure there's no cliff behind you.

[Citan]

Reconsider that Rogue Multiclass, or start considering either Barbarian or Bard.

As you say, a flat +6 Athletics isn't going to get you too far when Shoving. You want Expertise (Rogue), Advantage on the Strength check (Barbarian) or both (Bard).

THAT.
Both Bard and Rogue are good choice though.
If you go STR first & CHA second, Bard is the best choice by far.
If you want to limit the dip to only one level, then Rogue is the best choice (starting with lower STR will be compensated by Expertise, thus ensuring advantage, compensating in turn the lower to hit of your melee weapon attacks. You could even make DEX your main attack ability ^^).
But once you lose the capstone anyways, why not go up to dip 3?
Lore Bard is great (Swashbuckler Rogue could have been an option though, with CHA 16+). ;)

[Foxhound438]

Based on what you've said about your expectations for the campaign, I don't think ancients is the right oath. The big draw to ancients pally, early on anyways, is the spell list. If everything is going to have decent strength saves, ensnaring strike is useless, and shield bash becomes a lot worse.

You might be better off going full valor bard and shooting grease at things, or lore bard for decent dex save offense spells out the gate.

[WereRabbitz]

Based on what you've said about your expectations for the campaign, I don't think ancients is the right oath. The big draw to ancients pally, early on anyways, is the spell list. If everything is going to have decent strength saves, ensnaring strike is useless, and shield bash becomes a lot worse.

You might be better off going full valor bard and shooting grease at things, or lore bard for decent dex save offense spells out the gate.


I agree if your going into Lots of melee then maybe Devotion or venge would be better build.

[Mandragola]

I'd go with variant human instead of half elf. Start with shield mastery at level 1 and raise your strength at 4th. Also, you don't need 16s in both your constitution and charisma. 14s are sufficient in both and will let you spread a few points around in other stats. I'd always recommend anyone playing a melee character to get their strength (or dex) to 20 at level 8.

Ancients or devotion is fine but don't be a vengeance paladin with shield master. The vengeance channel divinity grants advantage and uses a bonus action, just like shield mastery. That's not bad, but it's kind of a waste. GWM is probably best for vengeance, since that loves advantage.

Knocking people over doesn't only benefit you. If you've got other front liners then they'll also get advantage on their attacks.

Even then, shield master is only one of several good options for a paladin feat. Sentinel, GWM, PAM and various other things could also work.

[HammeredWharf]

Oh, I'm not THAT worried about facing only axe idiots. The DM is usually keen on making people fight other "adventuring parties", so I'm sure there'll be some other characters in the mix, but I suspect he'll use axe idiots as mooks. It also sounds like the dwarves are just a first chapter of the story, but even then I'm reasonably sure he'll not use MM critters more than half of the time. It'll probably end with undead and cultists, like his campaigns almost always do.


If you want a trip master, go battlemaster fighter for tripping attack. I believe (maybe?) that it requires a DEX save instead, which would be more effective for this campaign.

If you want to have some fun with the concept, get the Command spell and tell them 'Lay' (though I prefer 'disrobe' as my one-word command. They inevitably also have to drop their weapon and then begin removing armor).

Well, you see, the Paladin of Ancients part is essential, because for some reason the rest of my party is making some complete edgelords (a dark and mysterious warlock, a drow Shadow Monk with a tragic past, and a third guy whose characters are always late), so someone has to make a pally with fairies and rainbows. It'll be hilarious.

Command should be a decent option against ragers, though I suspect some bosses could be immune due to Mindless Rage. It's definitely a spell that's staying on my list.


I'd go with variant human instead of half elf. Start with shield mastery at level 1 and raise your strength at 4th. Also, you don't need 16s in both your constitution and charisma. 14s are sufficient in both and will let you spread a few points around in other stats. I'd always recommend anyone playing a melee character to get their strength (or dex) to 20 at level 8.

That's an option, but I really want Darkvision. This DM has something against light. Since we're apparently going underground, I'm pretty sure there won't be any light in sight anywhere ever, and I can't exactly carry a torch in this case.

[Mandragola]

That's an option, but I really want Darkvision. This DM has something against light. Since we're apparently going underground, I'm pretty sure there won't be any light in sight anywhere ever, and I can't exactly carry a torch in this case.

My variant human paladin has some goggles of night, which help. Honestly though, there's a cantrip called "light" which takes a lot of the pain away, so long as your character isn't scouting.

Aside: It's weird how different humans can feel compared to every other race. The feat and the darkvision are so fundamental. It can feel like some builds almost need to be human, and others almost can't be. That doesn't feel like perfect game design.

[Corran]

tl;dr: I wanted to be a cool shield-bashing hero, but focusing on Shield Master seems really underwhelming. Am I supposed to take it as a minor perk and hope it works sometimes?
Late to this party but here it goes:
Shield master has two main functions.
Benefiting yourself: You can benefit yourself by possibly granting yourself advantage before you attack this round.
Benefit melee allies: Initiative order allowing, you can grant advantage to your melee allies (though ranged attacks against a prone target have disadvantage, so you might be sabotaging your ranged allies).

S&B paladins dont have very good dpr, so the benefits of shield master mostly come from how and if you can benefit your allies with it. In short, if you party is heavily geared towards melee, then you will probaby make good use of it. If you dont have many melee heavy hitters (or you do, but they already have ways of getting advantage), then simply dont take it.

Frankly, I am very biased against shield master on paladins. Firstly because paladins need both a couple of feats and they also need to use ASIs to boost their stats, so there is A LOT of competition between the various potential useful feats. You should be really careful as to what feats you are taking. Moreover, shield master competes with PAM in regard to how the paladin uses their bonus action. And PAM is arguably one of the best feats for most paladins. Last but not least, you dont have any way of further boosting athletics checks unless you multiclass (and multiclassing always comes at a cost, and a heavy one ore often than not), and your dex saves are not that great (even with aura of protection/ also I am assuming a str build in order to bash effectively, so not much mileage out of the third benefit of the feat. Personally, I would never take shield master on a paladin, unless my group were really geared towards melee, and there was no one else who could realistically afford it.

ps: If you want to take it however (whether because it makes sense to use it tactically or just out of personal prefference), you might want to look at a bard (instead of rogue) dip, for expertise in athletics.

[Foxhound438]

Well, you see, the Paladin of Ancients part is essential, because for some reason the rest of my party is making some complete edgelords


a nice dumb guy ditzy makes a joke of everything personality is always fun.


I look at the lich and smirk a bit, as I bring myself back to my feet

"What are you smiling about?" it says

"hehe, it looks like you've made... a grave mistake :D"

the bard, actively bleeding out on the ground *ba-dum-tss*

"Ha! Nice try. Telling a bad joke to try to make your opponent drop their guard. Oldest trick in the book. Trust me, I was there."

*barbarian falling, sword in hands, from the top of the castle wall directly above the lich*

[SharkForce]

paladins can have excellent saves, they just need to beef up their dex. i have no idea what the guy who says paladins have bad dex saves is talking about. paladins (assuming they're built well) don't have *any* bad saves. at worst, they should have mediocre saves.

and shield master is fine on a paladin. not only do the saves help, but a bigger chunk of the paladin's damage comes from sources that don't care about what sort of weapon you're using than other characters; smite damage, improved smite damage, various damage-boosting spells, etc. now, this is certainly not to suggest that a polearm paladin won't deal more damage than a shield paladin. but it's ridiculous to conclude that a paladin *needs* to use a polearm to deal proper damage. or great weapon master, for that matter.

incidentally, i'd almost be tempted to (after taking 7 or 8 levels in paladin - 7 for aura, 8 for ASI) to go 6 levels into bard (lore, to be specific). lore bards can, with their reaction, reduce an enemy's ability check (including the check to resist being shoved) by d8 at level 6. several times per short rest, in fact, if you focus on charisma. expertise plus reducing an enemy's check by d8 several times per rest should be enough to give a lot of success on shoving, and as an added bonus lore bards can still any 2 level 3 (or lower) spells they want, which can certainly open up some interesting options.

[Klorox]

Aside from warping your stats (also, it's been mentioned but you miscalculated your point buy) and adding rogue, or adding barbarian or bard, if you want to improve your shoves, one level of warlock allows you to cast hex. Hex gives your opponent disadvantage on one ability check, making shoves much more likely to happen.

[Mandragola]

Aside from warping your stats (also, it's been mentioned but you miscalculated your point buy) and adding rogue, or adding barbarian or bard, if you want to improve your shoves, one level of warlock allows you to cast hex. Hex gives your opponent disadvantage on one ability check, making shoves much more likely to happen.

Can't say I like this. You sold your soul and now you've got two abilities which demand your bonus action most turns, and one of them uses a spell slot and concentration. Not a good deal.

My experience is that a paladin doesn't need much help with athletics, because it's rare for monsters to be proficient. So long as you max out your strength and have proficiency you'll succeed a lot of the time. The penalties for failure aren't all that high anyway. Knocking monsters down ups your damage and there's a lot to be gained tactically by moving them, so it's a great ability to have. Evasion as well really is the icing on the cake.

So overall I think shield master is a nice add on for a sword and board paladin. It will be effective and fun to play. It doesn't need your whole character to be built around it though.

And be a variant human. Get someone to cast light on your shield. You aren't the scout.

[Citan]

Late to this party but here it goes:
Shield master has two main functions.
Benefiting yourself: You can benefit yourself by possibly granting yourself advantage before you attack this round.
Benefit melee allies: Initiative order allowing, you can grant advantage to your melee allies (though ranged attacks against a prone target have disadvantage, so you might be sabotaging your ranged allies).

That part is certainly true. ;)


S&B paladins dont have very good dpr.
Frankly, I am very biased against shield master on paladins. Firstly because paladins need both a couple of feats and they also need to use ASIs to boost their stats, so there is A LOT of competition between the various potential useful feats. You should be really careful as to what feats you are taking. Moreover, shield master competes with PAM in regard to how the paladin uses their bonus action. And PAM is arguably one of the best feats for most paladins. Last but not least, you dont have any way of further boosting athletics checks unless you multiclass (and multiclassing always comes at a cost, and a heavy one ore often than not), and your dex saves are not that great (even with aura of protection/ also I am assuming a str build in order to bash effectively, so not much mileage out of the third benefit of the feat. Personally, I would never take shield master on a paladin, unless my group were really geared towards melee, and there was no one else who could realistically afford it.

???
DPR: confer Sharkforce arguments. Also, one is not always required to think about maxing DPR only. ;)

PAM vs Shield Master: yes it's precisely because they compete for bonus action that you take one or another. And it's technically the same for someone who wants to Shove in terms of action economy (in both cases, you get one Shove attempt and 2 weapon attacks). As for the opportunity attack when enter reach, it's good but not indispensable: a Paladin should have plenty occasions to consume its reaction, even if it does not take Protection style (which range from good to great depending on the party) because being in the fray should ensure enough enemy movement to trigger "classic" OA. So it's a good of a choice as Polearm Master, only with a different focus.

"Dex saves are not that great": Wut? Sure it doesn't beat a Rogue's one (maxed DEX + proficiency), but it can attain a pretty decent level: +CHA+2 (Shield Master) means at the very least +4, probably +5 at start, up to +7, meaning as good (or better) as most casters relying on light armor or Mage Armor (thus keeping as high DEX as possible), even with a starting 10 in Dexterity.
And the "no-damage on successful save" can make a big difference in many situations, so even if you don't succeed on all saves, on the long run it's very beneficial.
If he had chosen Devotion Oath, he could even have made a DEX-based build with Rogue multiclass. But no use to speak more about this since Oath is fixed to Ancients. ;)

Only true thing you said is that you need to multiclass if you want to specifically optimize the Shove aspect in theorycraft (saying this because a Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard could easily help you to Shove), but that is not such a "heavy cost" for this build. Especially when you see how much value multiclasses such as Bard brings.


Yeah, I'll give a vote of confidence for this, too. I might even say going Paladin 7 or 8 before hitting Bard might be advisable; Ancients Paladin for Aura of Warding at 7th is awesomesauce. Then go Bard 3, bringing you up to 10th level. At 11th, go back to Paladin, grab your second ASI/Feat and another spell level (4th) before moving on from there.
I second the first part. For an Ancients Paladin, both Auras will be great for you and your allies, so straight Paladin 7 is a no-brainer.

Where I differ from Jelly is in the 8th level. If you go Bard 3 then Paladin 8, if you want to continue Bard, you will have two ASI glued on two consecutive levels. So...
- If you want to stay Bard 3 at most in your career (Paladin 17 / Bard 3), Jelly's advice is the best.
- Otherwise (Bard 4+), I'd rather suggest you to take first the Paladin 8 for ASI then go Bard straight up to 4.

As for whether to go max Paladin or continue Bard from here on, it's really up to what you want to play.
I'm personally fond of Paladin 9 / Lore Bard 11 because you get all great 3rd level Paladin spells, more spell slots than a pure Paladin, better Bardic Inspiration, double Expertise and you can cherry-pick a few great spells, including the greatest Paladin spell imo (Circle of Power). So except for the capstone and improved auras (which you will never have anyways), you can feel nearly like a true Paladin. ;)
But Improved Divine Smite and Undying Sentinel are good too. ;)

[Corran]

DPR: confer Sharkforce arguments. Also, one is not always required to think about maxing DPR only. ;)
I meant that the value of potential advantage on your attacks granted by the shove, is dependent on your average damage. So for example, shoving with shield master has more value, say on a rogue (who finds a way to become proficient with a shield) than on a paladin. I am not saying that the paladin has a bad dpr, I am just saying that if a paladin takes shield master, then the shoving part's importance relies a lot more to the damage of his allies than his own. So, on a paladin, SM's value mainly derrives from how a paladin can use it to support his melee allies, rather than from how he can increase his own dpr. What I am trying to say, is that I dont think that advantage on his attacks is enough reason for a S&B paladin to take this feat, the party composition is the factor that determines whether or not this feat will be valuable or not.


PAM vs Shield Master: yes it's precisely because they compete for bonus action that you take one or another. And it's technically the same for someone who wants to Shove in terms of action economy (in both cases, you get one Shove attempt and 2 weapon attacks). As for the opportunity attack when enter reach, it's good but not indispensable: a Paladin should have plenty occasions to consume its reaction, even if it does not take Protection style (which range from good to great depending on the party) because being in the fray should ensure enough enemy movement to trigger "classic" OA. So it's a good of a choice as Polearm Master, only with a different focus.
It's hard to compare it with PAM directly, but what I was trying to convey, was that you usually go for one or the other, due to how they boath utilize your bonus action (sure, one could aspire to take both, but with that much pressure on stat bumps, the redundancy between the two feats doesn't help, but I think we pretty much agree on this so I continue). And since the value of SM is greatly depending on your party composition (which is the main point I was trying to make above - meaning that a paladin is not a heavy hitter, so the usefulness of shoving will greatly depend on if there are melee ally heavy hitters around), you must look there before taking SM in place of a very useful feat (PAM). You should look there before too, but now with PAM on the line, that puts extra pressure on the party's comp being favourable for taking advantage of the shoving.


"Dex saves are not that great": Wut? Sure it doesn't beat a Rogue's one (maxed DEX + proficiency), but it can attain a pretty decent level: +CHA+2 (Shield Master) means at the very least +4, probably +5 at start, up to +7, meaning as good (or better) as most casters relying on light armor or Mage Armor (thus keeping as high DEX as possible), even with a starting 10 in Dexterity.
And the "no-damage on successful save" can make a big difference in many situations, so even if you don't succeed on all saves, on the long run it's very beneficial.
If he had chosen Devotion Oath, he could even have made a DEX-based build with Rogue multiclass. But no use to speak more about this since Oath is fixed to Ancients. ;)

I will not go into the dex-build territory, as that either sabotages your shoves, or stretches your stats too thin if you multiclass (though it is a good point if you rolled very good stats). But let me say about the saves. With a str build, after aura of courage kicks in, your saves will be in the range of 3-5 most likely, increasing whenever you boost charisma. Now, that numbers are not exactly bad for a dex save, but they are not what I would hope to have if I were to expect a good return from the pseudo-evasion benefit of the feat. It is a benefit which can prove situationally very useful, but since the benefit restricts to when you only succeed on the dex save, there is a terrible gamble involved. What I was trying to say here, is that not having top-notch dex saves, means that you cannot reliably benefit from that third benefit in the rare(?) cases a dex-targeting area effect comes up. So that takes me to the first point. Which says that the only actual reason to take this feat on a paladin, is if its support value (granting advantage to melee allies) should be the sole deciding factor on whether you take this feat or not.
ps: I am not saying it is a bad feat generally. But for a paladin the competition for his feats/ASIs is very big. That's why I'm perhaps a bit strict (justifiably imo) in how I am accessing this feat for paladin. Meaning I would expect a very good return from the shoves helping my allies in order to take this feat.


So if it were me, and I was thinking of taking this feat on my paladin, I would look at the group.
Example 1: I have one GWM fighter ally and one rogue ally who prefers melee? I think I would take SM.
Exammple 2: I have one GWM barb as the only melee buddy? I dont think I would bother taking SM.
ps2: Ofc you put ranged allies on the scale to get the full picture.

[Citan]

When someone basically says that the choice of the feat and build should be thought out with party welfare as a priority, I can do nothing but agree with him. ;)

You made good points, and I see your reasoning. Still think you're a bit harsh though (even on point-buy build), but I guess it's a matter of different experiences. ^^

[Mandragola]

A lot of what’s been written here focusses on shoving enemies to knock them over, granting advantage to friends. That’s cool but it’s certainly not the only thing you can do with a shove. It doesn’t only provide a damage boost melee people. It can be used for loads of other stuff.

The next obvious benefit is in moving baddies away from your squishy friends, allowing them to escape from and/or zap those baddies.

You can also push baddies off the top of things, into walls of fire, or into the pit of Carkoon, the nesting place of the all-powerful Sarlacc.

And if a big burly baddie is defending a squishy baddie, you can move the burly one out of the way and beat the squishy guy in the face.

So basically you have all kinds of cool options. The ability to move the enemy around is powerful, and it's fun. It’s difficult to calculate how it changes your dpr, but there’s more to beating an encounter than dpr.

And therefore this feat is not as dependent on the make up of the party as it might initially seem to be. If you're in a party full of archers then it's still a valid choice, but in different ways. And of course in some set ups sentinel, PAM or GWM will be a better fit.

[SharkForce]

can't agree that a paladin doesn't hit hard or have their own significant source of damage.

a paladin might not hit hard. that's definitely possible. but with the option to smite, when a paladin wants to hit hard, a paladin hits *very* hard. it may not be sustainable for every attack in every fight (or even close to it), but against key enemies, your damage can be very good, and the boost from a prone target can be quite beneficial.

[PotatoGolem]

Bard levels are also great for your theme as silly comic relief guy in an over-serious campaign. Attach little cymbals to the edge of your shield and shake it like a tambourine. Build pan pipes into your helmet. Put bells on your plated boots. See if you can build a maraca into the hilt of your sword. The possibilities are endless.