Pur-WIS Arcana Cleric Build: Advice Desired

[rudy]

Hey all,

I'm putting together a character for a game I get to play in (finally not GMing). My concept is a Arcana Cleric who just plainly never uses weapons. Thinks they are barbaric, and that magic is the only weapon a civilized person needs.

Variant Human, +1 Wis, +1 Con
Point Buy: 10 14 14 10 15 8
Feat: Resilient (Con)
Final Stats: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8

Medium Armor, hence the +2 dexterity bonus. I'll be going around with a shield and an open hand from which to cast.

This build is only viable I think because the Arcana domain lets me pick up two wizard cantrips and treat them as cleric cantrips. At level 8 I get to add my wisdom bonus to cantrip damage.

So, the main thing I'm not sure about is what wizard cantrips would be best to complement my Sacred Flame. I'm thinking Fire Bolt (ranged attack) and Thunderclap (better than it would be for a wizard, since I can tank through some enemies), but I'm not sure. I *could* also go for one damaging wizard cantrip, such as fire bolt, and then a utility one (such as the excellent Minor Image).

Also appreciate any general input or criticism on the build.

I'll be going for Cleric until at least level 8/9, probably boosting wisdom with both ASIs, and then *might* switch over to Fighter (Eldritch Knight) for a few levels. But that's getting *way* ahead of things.

[Specter]

Frostbite is superior to Sacred Flame, because it targets CON and gives disadvantage.

Other than that, Fire Bolt seems like the way to go. If you don't want two damaging cantrips, take Fire Bolt or Ray of Frost and be cool. You'll always have Magic Missile for times you can't miss.

[NNescio]

Hey all,

I'm putting together a character for a game I get to play in (finally not GMing). My concept is a Arcana Cleric who just plainly never uses weapons. Thinks they are barbaric, and that magic is the only weapon a civilized person needs.

Variant Human, +1 Wis, +1 Con
Point Buy: 10 14 14 10 15 8
Feat: Resilient (Con)
Final Stats: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8

Medium Armor, hence the +2 dexterity bonus. I'll be going around with a shield and an open hand from which to cast.

This build is only viable I think because the Arcana domain lets me pick up two wizard cantrips and treat them as cleric cantrips. At level 8 I get to add my wisdom bonus to cantrip damage.

So, the main thing I'm not sure about is what wizard cantrips would be best to complement my Sacred Flame. I'm thinking Fire Bolt (ranged attack) and Thunderclap (better than it would be for a wizard, since I can tank through some enemies), but I'm not sure. I *could* also go for one damaging wizard cantrip, such as fire bolt, and then a utility one (such as the excellent Minor Image).

Also appreciate any general input or criticism on the build.

I'll be going for Cleric until at least level 8/9, probably boosting wisdom with both ASIs, and then *might* switch over to Fighter (Eldritch Knight) for a few levels. But that's getting *way* ahead of things.

If you don't want to take Greenflame Blade or Booming Blade (both of which requires hitting with a weapon), then pick Fire Bolt and Minor Illusion.


Frostbite is superior to Sacred Flame, because it targets CON and gives disadvantage.

Other than that, Fire Bolt seems like the way to go. If you don't want two damaging cantrips, take Fire Bolt or Ray of Frost and be cool. You'll always have Magic Missile for times you can't miss.

Sacred Flame has a better damage type (radiant) which can shut off some nasty undead abilities (mostly regen and resurrect-on-death), and ignores anything less than full cover, unlike other Dex Save spells. On anything with a low AC you'd probably want to hit with Firebolt anyway, and most things with high ACs are usually big beefy sorts (instead of being the dodgy kind) with high Con saves but low Dex saves.

The disadvantage on a single weapon attack for Frostbite's target makes it decent at early levels, but later on when everybody and their mother have Multiattack (at least, well the ones with worthwhile weapon attacks), Frostbite is barely a blip. Also nasty monsters with strong weapon attacks tend to have high Con saves as well (those that don't, well, generally are squishy striker types with lower ACs).

If you need to target something worthwhile with a weak Con save (like a caster or a Beholder), it's best to use something like Blindness or Contagion.

[rudy]

If you don't want two damaging cantrips, take Fire Bolt or Ray of Frost and be cool. You'll always have Magic Missile for times you can't miss.
Yeah, I'm torn between Fire Bolt and Ray of Frost, truly. The movement reduction could be clutch in certain circumstances.

I don't think I'll end up using Magic Missile; with the high con save via feat I'm hoping to have this guy be concentrating on Bless while blasting off cantrips at first.


If you don't want to take Greenflame Blade or Booming Blade (both of which requires hitting with a weapon), then pick Fire Bolt and Minor Illusion.
If I do end up going into Eldritch Knight after 8th level, I would probably pick one of those up when I hit Fighter 3. Before then, I just don't think it's a good choice, since my attack ability is not going to exceed +2 at least until I have Wisdom 20. And I think I'd take Lucky before I would boost any other stats.


Sacred Flame has a better damage type (radiant) which can shut off some nasty undead abilities (mostly regen and resurrect-on-death), and ignores anything less than full cover, unlike other Dex Save spells. On anything with a low AC you'd probably want to hit with Firebolt anyway, and most things with high ACs are usually big beefy sorts (instead of being the dodgy kind) with high Con saves but low Dex saves.Similar to my thinking; thanks.

[Fuzzy Logic]

This might be useless to you, but theoretically could you take spell sniper and learn eldritch blast + your arcana domain feature to get warlock level agonising blast type damage? Probably not worth it but just thought it was interesting

[gfishfunk]

Instead of using a shield and medium armor, how about grabbing Magic Initiate for Mage Armor and several other cantrips?

No shield, but instead a glass of wine. And a monocle.

[DivisibleByZero]

This might be useless to you, but theoretically could you take spell sniper and learn eldritch blast + your arcana domain feature to get warlock level agonising blast type damage? Probably not worth it but just thought it was interesting

EB would still be keyed off Cha

[NNescio]

If I do end up going into Eldritch Knight after 8th level, I would probably pick one of those up when I hit Fighter 3. Before then, I just don't think it's a good choice, since my attack ability is not going to exceed +2 at least until I have Wisdom 20. And I think I'd take Lucky before I would boost any other stats.

Picking them as part of Arcane Initiate lets you apply Potent Spellcasting later on to GFB/BB, giving you up to 2x +Wis to damage (one on the primary, and one on the secondary effect).

Picking them as an Eldritch Knight prevents you from doing so because they wouldn't be considered Cleric cantrips.


Instead of using a shield and medium armor, how about grabbing Magic Initiate for Mage Armor and several other cantrips?

No shield, but instead a glass of wine. And a monocle.

As classy as that sounds, you're basically paying for the privilege of having a much lower AC. Plus, Magic Initiate cantrips are not counted as Cleric cantrips (unless you pick the Cleric list, which is mostly pointless), and don't benefit from Potent Spellcasting.

If you want to pick Magic Initiate for an Arcana Cleric, pick the Druid spell list to get Shillelagh for Wis to attack. In conjunction with the SCAG cantrips this lets you triple or quadruple dip +Wis to damage when combined with Potent Spellcasting. Nothing gets as SAD as this.

The other cantrip is still based off Wis, if you pick an attack/save cantrip. It wouldn't benefit from Potent Spellcasting though, so I'd usually just pick up another 'utility' cantrip like Shape Water (ice ball bearings on demand and other benefits) or Mold Earth.

For the 1st level Druid spell, I'd recommend Absorb Elements, as another layer of defense, which can potentially ave you from getting downed if you're hit by an AoE like fireball or a dragon's breath. If you're concerned about not having opportunities to cast it every day (wasting the spell 'slot' so to speak), pick Faerie Fire. It's sorta like having another casting of Bless. Another alternative is Goodberry, if your DM lets your teammates feed it to downed allies as an action (another insurance against you getting downed).


This might be useless to you, but theoretically could you take spell sniper and learn eldritch blast + your arcana domain feature to get warlock level agonising blast type damage? Probably not worth it but just thought it was interesting

It's still based off Charisma, and you can't apply Potent Spellcasting because it's not considered a Cleric cantrip.

[Citan]

Hey all,

I'm putting together a character for a game I get to play in (finally not GMing). My concept is a Arcana Cleric who just plainly never uses weapons. Thinks they are barbaric, and that magic is the only weapon a civilized person needs.

Variant Human, +1 Wis, +1 Con
Point Buy: 10 14 14 10 15 8
Feat: Resilient (Con)
Final Stats: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8

Medium Armor, hence the +2 dexterity bonus. I'll be going around with a shield and an open hand from which to cast.

This build is only viable I think because the Arcana domain lets me pick up two wizard cantrips and treat them as cleric cantrips. At level 8 I get to add my wisdom bonus to cantrip damage.

So, the main thing I'm not sure about is what wizard cantrips would be best to complement my Sacred Flame. I'm thinking Fire Bolt (ranged attack) and Thunderclap (better than it would be for a wizard, since I can tank through some enemies), but I'm not sure. I *could* also go for one damaging wizard cantrip, such as fire bolt, and then a utility one (such as the excellent Minor Image).

Also appreciate any general input or criticism on the build.

Hi! ;)
Your build seems very thought out to me.
On the cantrip choice though, I'd like to bring some thoughts. ;)

Thunderclap: very nice choice because it can affect several creatures. On the minus side, it is a save or suck save and targets Constitution.

Fire Bolt: Classic and good choice for pure damage, is an attack (so benefit from Bless etc), but commonly resisted. Also, if you intend to dip Druid someday, you could pick Produce Flame which seems more versatile to me (you lose a bit of damage but it acts also as Light). So not the most important.

Ray of Frost: One of my favorites: attack, a bit less commonly resisted damage type (cold), and the speed loss can be useful in many situations.

Shocking Grasp: Wonder why it was not yet talked about: melee attack, and no reaction advantage is great for you and any ally in the vicinity.

Considering that, if I'm understanding well, you want cantrips that complement Sacred Flame, I'd therefore recommend any of the last two, because they are attacks with always useful riders.
And since you can add your WIS modifier, they will deal actually deal good damage.
After that, between the two... I'd be tempted to say Shocking Grasp because it seems you plan into going into melee sometimes, but it's really a matter of choice.


I don't think I'll end up using Magic Missile; with the high con save via feat I'm hoping to have this guy be concentrating on Bless while blasting off cantrips at first.

Well, either I misunderstood you, or you misunderstood Concentration rules (or me ^^): while you can't cast another Concentration spell without breaking the active one, you can perfectly keep a Concentration spell active while launch non-concentration spells. So you could cast Bless at the beginning of the fight and launch Magic Missiles in a later turn.


As classy as that sounds, you're basically paying for the privilege of having a much lower AC. Plus, Magic Initiate cantrips are not counted as Cleric cantrips (unless you pick the Cleric list, which is mostly pointless), and don't benefit from Potent Spellcasting.

If you want to pick Magic Initiate for an Arcana Cleric, pick the Druid spell list to get Shillelagh for Wis to attack. In conjunction with the SCAG cantrips this lets you triple or quadruple dip +Wis to damage when combined with Potent Spellcasting. Nothing gets as SAD as this.
For Druid 1st spell I'd recommend Absorbe Elements.

Seconded. You could pick up Produce Flame or Thorn Whip to go with. ;)

[rudy]

This might be useless to you, but theoretically could you take spell sniper and learn eldritch blast + your arcana domain feature to get warlock level agonising blast type damage? Probably not worth it but just thought it was interesting
As DivisibleByZero said below, that would still be keyed off CHA, which is a dump stat for this build. I don't really have any room to pump it up, either.


Instead of using a shield and medium armor, how about grabbing Magic Initiate for Mage Armor and several other cantrips?

No shield, but instead a glass of wine. And a monocle.
Classy, but I really want that Resilient (Con) early. Let's me get Wisdom 20 at the same time as potent cantrips, while having strong survive-ability and concentration.


Picking them as part of Arcane Initiate lets you apply Potent Spellcasting later on to GFB/BB, giving you up to 2x +Wis to damage (one on the primary, and one on the secondary effect).

Picking them as an Eldritch Knight prevents you from doing so because they wouldn't be considered Cleric cantrips.
Ah, I totally forgot about that. I think I'll still pass; I like the no-weapons concept here. If I dip in Eldritch Knight (not a big concern right now) I'll just get some utility cantrips.




For the 1st level Druid spell, I'd recommend Absorb Elements, as another layer of defense, which can potentially ave you from getting downed if you're hit by an AoE like fireball or a dragon's breath. If you're concerned about not having opportunities to cast it every day (wasting the spell 'slot' so to speak), pick Faerie Fire. It's sorta like having another casting of Bless. Another alternative is Goodberry, if your DM lets your teammates feed it to downed allies as an action (another insurance against you getting downed).
I appreciate the thoughts on Magic Initiate, but I really want the Resilient (Con) from the beginning to boost both my surviveability and concentration checks.



Ray of Frost: One of my favorites: attack, a bit less commonly resisted damage type (cold), and the speed loss can be useful in many situations.

Shocking Grasp: Wonder why it was not yet talked about: melee attack, and no reaction advantage is great for you and any ally in the vicinity.

Considering that, if I'm understanding well, you want cantrips that complement Sacred Flame, I'd therefore recommend any of the last two, because they are attacks with always useful riders.
And since you can add your WIS modifier, they will deal actually deal good damage.
After that, between the two... I'd be tempted to say Shocking Grasp because it seems you plan into going into melee sometimes, but it's really a matter of choice.
You make a really good point on shocking grasp, because I do plan to be in the thick of things (especially once I get Spirit Guardians). Being able to move without triggering opportunity attacks could be crucial. I'll consider that carefully; thanks.


Well, either I misunderstood you, or you misunderstood Concentration rules (or me ^^): while you can't cast another Concentration spell without breaking the active one, you can perfectly keep a Concentration spell active while launch non-concentration spells. So you could cast Bless at the beginning of the fight and launch Magic Missiles in a later turn.
No, I understand. I meant it more in the sense of "I'm more likely to use my limited spell slots for things like Bless than things like Magic Missile." Thanks, though.

[NNescio]

You make a really good point on shocking grasp, because I do plan to be in the thick of things (especially once I get Spirit Guardians). Being able to move without triggering opportunity attacks could be crucial. I'll consider that carefully; thanks.

Or you could take the Disengage action, which is more reliable (guaranteed to work unless your enemy has Sentinel or some weird ability) and works against more than one creature (an important consideration if you're going to wade deep into melee).

Or Dodge + Sanctuary if you want to avoid non-OA attacks too. Not 100% reliable, but this combo does ward off a lot of hits, and Sanctuary even works against grapples (which are still attacks despite using opposed ability checks instead of an attack roll).

That said, Shocking Grasp is a melee attack, an option which you lack, if you don't want to use weapons. Useful if an enemy is adjacent to you and you can't Firebolt him without disadvantage. Sacred Flame does counteract that somewhat, but agile enemies can be a problem.

[Biggstick]

I appreciate the thoughts on Magic Initiate, but I really want the Resilient (Con) from the beginning to boost both my surviveability and concentration checks.

You make a really good point on shocking grasp, because I do plan to be in the thick of things (especially once I get Spirit Guardians). Being able to move without triggering opportunity attacks could be crucial. I'll consider that carefully; thanks.

I'm a fan of Resilient: Con myself, but if you plan on being in melee and are considering Shocking Grasp, I'd definitely recommend Warcaster. Being able to use your opportunity attack for Shocking Grasp is pretty awesome. Advantage on your concentration checks is much more effective early on and levels out the later in levels you go. I think picking up that Resilient: Con later in the career (levels 8-12) plus the first level Warcaster is a much more effective way to build the character. Just my two cents.

[rudy]

Quick clarification: I've been assuming that, even though they are attacks made as part of casting a spell, Green Flame Blade and the like key off of Strength/Dexterity for the attack roll, and not your casting stat?

That's correct? Because that was a big part of me discarding those as possibilities when conceptualizing this character.

[rudy]

I'm a fan of Resilient: Con myself, but if you plan on being in melee and are considering Shocking Grasp, I'd definitely recommend Warcaster. Being able to use your opportunity attack for Shocking Grasp is pretty awesome. Advantage on your concentration checks is much more effective early on and levels out the later in levels you go. I think picking up that Resilient: Con later in the career (levels 8-12) plus the first level Warcaster is a much more effective way to build the character. Just my two cents.I didn't even think about the opportunity attack aspect of it. I'll have to seriously consider that as an alternate progression; thanks.

[NNescio]

Quick clarification: I've been assuming that, even though they are attacks made as part of casting a spell, Green Flame Blade and the like key off of Strength/Dexterity for the attack roll, and not your casting stat?

That's correct? Because that was a big part of me discarding those as possibilities when conceptualizing this character.

Yes.

Having Shillelagh changes things though (changing it to key off your casting stat). Even without Shillelagh, you probably can manage a +2 ability modifier on Dex for a medium-armored character, which is only a -1 relative to an attack using your spellcasting ability, before ASIs.


I didn't even think about the opportunity attack aspect of it. I'll have to seriously consider that as an alternate progression; thanks.

I generally pick Warcaster before Resillient (Con) on Clerics because of that. Even without a Shocking Grasp or BB OA, Warcaster generally provides a bigger effective bonus to concentration checks at low levels (when you only have +2/+3 proficiency), and lets you cast even with both arms occupied (a lesser consideration for you if you aren't wielding weapons, since you can keep one arm free).

A BB OA is more potent than its Shocking Grasp equivalent though, especially if the DM rules the provoking movement itself to trigger BB's secondary damage.

[Biggstick]

Quick clarification: I've been assuming that, even though they are attacks made as part of casting a spell, Green Flame Blade and the like key off of Strength/Dexterity for the attack roll, and not your casting stat?

That's correct? Because that was a big part of me discarding those as possibilities when conceptualizing this character.

The attacks still key off of your Dex or Str for the attack roll. They just gain the damage benefit of the Arcana Cleric level 8 ability, plus your martial attack stat.

[Biggstick]

Yes. I generally pick Warcaster before Resillient (Con) on Clerics because of that. Even without a Shocking Grasp or BB OA, Warcaster generally provides a bigger effective bonus to concentration checks at low levels (when you only have +2/+3 proficiency), and lets you cast even with both arms occupied (a lesser consideration for you if you aren't wielding weapons, since you can keep one arm free).

A BB OA is more potent than its Shocking Grasp equivalent though, especially if the DM rules the provoking movement itself to trigger BB's secondary damage.

I agree with all of this. The argument Resilient: Con has going for it is the +1 HP per level and +1 on Con checks (and proficiency bonus) for anything other then concentration checks. That's really the big difference. To me, the Resilient: Con is a rock solid choice once you're level 9+ (so picking it up with the level 8 ASI or higher is a pretty solid pick up).

[rudy]

I agree with all of this. The argument Resilient: Con has going for it is the +1 HP per level and +1 on Con checks (and proficiency bonus) for anything other then concentration checks. That's really the big difference. To me, the Resilient: Con is a rock solid choice once you're level 9+ (so picking it up with the level 8 ASI or higher is a pretty solid pick up).

So, something like:

Start: War Caster
4th: Wis 18
8th: Resilient (Con 16)
12th: Wis 20

?

[Biggstick]

So, something like:

Start: War Caster
4th: Wis 18
8th: Resilient (Con 16)
12th: Wis 20

?

It depends on how much you want that maxed out Wisdom. I think your level 1 and 4 choices are on point. Feel out the character and decide as you're leveling if you want the maxed out Wisdom or Resilient: Con at level 8. Whatever you didn't take at level 8, take at level 12.

[Klorox]

I didn't even think about the opportunity attack aspect of it. I'll have to seriously consider that as an alternate progression; thanks.

As Nneisco pointed out, shillelagh is an awesome spell for you.

Instead of warcaster, consider taking magic initiate (druid) and pick up shillelagh. Your attacks key off WIS now, and using free flame blade is even better.

I did this with an arcana cleric and that character was great.

[rudy]

It depends on how much you want that maxed out Wisdom. I think your level 1 and 4 choices are on point. Feel out the character and decide as you're leveling if you want the maxed out Wisdom or Resilient: Con at level 8. Whatever you didn't take at level 8, take at level 12.


As Nneisco pointed out, shillelagh is an awesome spell for you.

Instead of warcaster, consider taking magic initiate (druid) and pick up shillelagh. Your attacks key off WIS now, and using free flame blade is even better.

I did this with an arcana cleric and that character was great.

Thanks for all the advice! Played the character tonight and it worked well. Went with thunderclap and shocking grasp in the end. Thunderclap ended up being amazing; best moment was dealing 6 damage to 4 goblins at once which, at 1st level, is a good feeling. And then using healing word in the same round. Since I'm much tank-ier than a wizard (18 AC, higher hp. 19 AC once I can afford the armor upgrade) I'm able to get in there and use tactics a wizard wouldn't dare.

Also loving the no-weapons thing.

Went with War Caster in the end; has already been relevant a few times. Not for the concentration checks (so far), but for the opportunity attacks. The GM, being a good GM, plays the enemies as not expecting me to be able to take opportunity attacks on them. Since, you know, my hand is empty.

[Klorox]

Thanks for all the advice! Played the character tonight and it worked well. Went with thunderclap and shocking grasp in the end. Thunderclap ended up being amazing; best moment was dealing 6 damage to 4 goblins at once which, at 1st level, is a good feeling. And then using healing word in the same round. Since I'm much tank-ier than a wizard (18 AC, higher hp) I'm able to get in there and use tactics a wizard wouldn't dare.

Also loving the no-weapons thing.

Went with War Caster in the end; has already been relevant a few times. Not for the concentration checks (so far), but for the opportunity attacks. The GM, being a good GM, plays the enemies as not expecting me to be able to take opportunity attacks on them. Since, you know, my hand is empty.

I'm glad to hear you had fun!

If you wanted to have the chance to make attacks, but still not use a weapon, I guess you could add a monk level in there.

But I'm still in a very 3e mindset when it comes to multiclassing spellchuckers; don't do it!

[Citan]

Thanks for all the advice! Played the character tonight and it worked well. Went with thunderclap and shocking grasp in the end. Thunderclap ended up being amazing; best moment was dealing 6 damage to 4 goblins at once which, at 1st level, is a good feeling. And then using healing word in the same round. Since I'm much tank-ier than a wizard (18 AC, higher hp. 19 AC once I can afford the armor upgrade) I'm able to get in there and use tactics a wizard wouldn't dare.

Also loving the no-weapons thing.

Went with War Caster in the end; has already been relevant a few times. Not for the concentration checks (so far), but for the opportunity attacks. The GM, being a good GM, plays the enemies as not expecting me to be able to take opportunity attacks on them. Since, you know, my hand is empty.
Great news to hear that you had plenty of fun and concept works well (also kudos to your DM for actually thinking this through, many DMs would not have had this inspiration). Keep it up ;)