Teleport question

[Talothorn]

Okay, so an interesting question came up at my table, and it's causing me some brain-ache. (I am the DM, 3.Px game, high level, some cheese, and I let players appeal to me decisions afterwards if they have good arguments. Appeals don't retcon, but they can change the rule for the future.)

So, the question is this: "Can I teleport into a dragon's skull and attack it's brain?"

My first reaction is of course not, based on playing many editions and the whole "2 things occupying the same space" thing. But the appeal argument has me flummoxed. (Warning, some real world physics here may mess with things, but I accept some real world physics, I just add magic.)

What happens when you teleport into a space? Whatever is in that space is either displaced, absorbed into you, or exchanges places with you. Unless you are teleporting into the vacuum of space, there is something there already, even if it's just air. Is the air displaced, or what? You can teleport to a place full of water, and the bottom of the ocean is a valid target location. What happens to the water where you arrive?

To make matters worse, what about microbial life, tiny fish, dust, grass, etc. If you teleport into a grassy field, do you arrive standing on the grass that was in the last second standing where you now are? That supports displacement.

I realize RAW doesn't cover this, I'm trying to get a consensus based on the community's collective experience, judgement, and creativity.

The dragon's skull would be big enough to accommodate the character, but the character has never actually seen the location, except by extensive study of the heads, brains, and skulls of other dragons ("description only" for familiarity based on the 3.0 teleport table.)

What do you all think?

[Ken Murikumo]

Personally i would just default to the rule of ending up in a solid object then being shunted randomly until you come out, taking damage each turn. I would also, for fairness sake, make the dragon take the damage too.

But for the physics thing, you have to wonder. If you were to actually teleport (like instantly travel from one spot to another), you would leave a void of all matter where you left, causing the air to rush in and fill the space. Probably resulting in a loud pop noise like when a lightbulb breaks, but a lightbulb the size and shape of you.

I just say "Magic" and not try and stress about it.

[Inevitability]

No.

From a mechanical perspective, it's overpowered. A dragon can't really attack targets inside its skull, whereas attacks to the brain should be very effective in killing it.

From a fluff perspective, it makes dragons (and other large monsters) too weak. If a 2nd-level spell can guarantee victory against any dragon, no matter its precautions, they don't deserve their fearsome reputation.

From a story perspective, it trivializes the encounter. How many good stories have the hero teleport into the skull of his enemies and stab them to death?

[Deophaun]

So, the question is this: "Can I teleport into a dragon's skull and attack it's brain?"
In my games, that would probably result in you teleporting to Dragon's Skull keep and attacking Itzbrane, the alhoon wizard that lives there, because that's the only valid target that matches what you said. Fortunately, Itzbrane is quite understanding of the whole thing; this does happen quite frequently, and he's wondered if he should change the name of his keep for quite some time now. But, he doesn't get out and liches don't have much of a social life, let alone alhoons, so he does enjoy the company. You are invited to stay. For dinner.

[Theobod]

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

The SRD is very explicit about such shenanigans, as for displacement, I always assumed that was the default fluff, otherwise an area filled with air would not be 'open' and infact teleportation could only be performed to destinations that contained a well supported currently vacuumed bell jar.

[Calthropstu]

I have always thought it amusing you could teleport out of a dragon's stomach, but not into it.
"Wheeeee, eat my 40 foot radius energy burst from inside your stomach."

And this is how the fire breathing t-rex came to be...

[Morcleon]

The SRD is very explicit about such shenanigans, as for displacement, I always assumed that was the default fluff, otherwise an area filled with air would not be 'open' and infact teleportation could only be performed to destinations that contained a well supported currently vacuumed bell jar.

From the given fluff, I hypothesize that teleportation spells actually work by switching the matter at each end of the destination. Normal teleportation spells can only do this with non-sentient fluids (air, water, etc), since any resistance, either from the ego of a sentient elemental or from the conceptual immovability of solids, means there isn't enough power to properly teleport you. This causes the shunting effect as the spell frantically searches for a proper destination lest you die by being spliced with a piano. Certain spells (benign transposition, for example) are designed to switch with creatures, and so do not violate this hypothesis.

[Segev]

Teleport fails if you try to teleport into a solid object. Whether liquids and gasses displace or are simply replaced is not covered, but I'd go with the former since there's nothing to indicate teleport puts something back where you were, nor that it annihilates matter. (This would explain a "pop" noise when you vanish, too, as air rushes in.)

So no, you cannot teleport into the (solid) brain of the dragon. Whether you can teleport into the cavities of its body - its stomach, mouth, etc. - is really a DM call, but as a general rule I'd say "no" because it just complicates things too much to allow it.

[Darth Ultron]

What happens when you teleport into a space? Whatever is in that space is either displaced, absorbed into you, or exchanges places with you. Unless you are teleporting into the vacuum of space, there is something there already, even if it's just air. Is the air displaced, or what? You can teleport to a place full of water, and the bottom of the ocean is a valid target location. What happens to the water where you arrive?



You missed a couple. Like..

Whatever is there is teleported away, maybe even to another plane

Whatever is there is obliterated.

[denthor]

Never say no!!!

That being said let the mage try the first level of teleport requires a roll of once seen mage has never seen the inside of the Dragons brain

Sounds like simular or false destination to me mage winks out of the fight.

Or maybe spell fails wasted spell slot/round no more escape spell if things go wrong.

How do you think other parties die in the dungeons when we find there stuff?

[Âmesang]

So you can't conjure forth someone into empty space, but you could still conjure yourself into empty space, right? Say, for example, a flying wizard teleporting a mile up.

[Hiro Quester]

When I first started playing as a bard/sublime chord and cast greater blink. I could turn ethereal and pass through the dragon while it tried to bite me, to foil it's attack.

But then I wanted to take my attack to come back to the material plane in the dragon's brain and attack it from the inside.

DM just said "No. It doesn't work that way. Mechanically it could, but for game purposes it shouldn't. Too easy."

I accepted that, and cast irresistible dance on the dragon instead. :smallbiggrin:

[ace rooster]

"Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible."

I rule that the inside of an old dragon's hoard qualifies, never mind the inside of an actual dragon.

[Segev]

"Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible."

I rule that the inside of an old dragon's hoard qualifies, never mind the inside of an actual dragon.

Mildly obscure, but true and...honestly, fair and accurate, too. Dragons ARE magical.

Doesn't solve things for other large, less-magical creatures, though. Like T-Rexes.

[Theobod]

That depends on whether the DM rules open cavities (as we have already noted it would have to be an open cavity as you can't appear 'within another creature or object') of a creature have 'strong physical energy'.

[Segev]

That depends on whether the DM rules open cavities (as we have already noted it would have to be an open cavity as you can't appear 'within another creature or object') of a creature have 'strong physical energy'.
If a creature has cavities big enough to appear in, he needs a better dentist!

[Theobod]

If a creature has cavities big enough to appear in, he needs a better dentist!

Made my day.

[Starkeeper]

When I first started playing as a bard/sublime chord and cast greater blink. I could turn ethereal and pass through the dragon while it tried to bite me, to foil it's attack.

But then I wanted to take my attack to come back to the material plane in the dragon's brain and attack it from the inside.

DM just said "No. It doesn't work that way. Mechanically it could, but for game purposes it shouldn't. Too easy."

I accepted that, and cast irresistible dance on the dragon instead. :smallbiggrin:

Both Blink and Greater Blink have a clause shunting you out if you appear inside a solid object, while a brain is rather squishy, I believe it still falls under that classification and you'd just get expelled from his cranial cavity, probably even back in its mouth due to proximity.

[Talothorn]

Very minor point, he didn't want to appear in the dragons brain, but rather in the skull cavity next to the brain, displacing cranial fluid.

[Âmesang]

So is it a Knowledge (arcana) check to know what the brain cavity looks like? Otherwise, what's the percentile failure chance of ending up in a more… unpleasant body cavity? :smalleek:

[denthor]

If you let this player do this there are a couple of things you should think about

1) it's dark inside the brain cavity 50/50 chance to hit does the character have a light source.

2) what's the land in the brain fluid? Does this mean that he is encased in the brain fluid you know up over his head. Does he have water breathing up? If not take a look at the rules for drowning immediate fortitude save.

3) unless he has some way to cast underwater that's a check or silently. The character has to have a way to make a second fortitude save since they are opening their mouth to speak and this is expelling an oxygen from the lungs.

No need to tell him any of this before the dice at the table and the spell is cast.

Dimension door might be a better spell to dothis with

[MesiDoomstalker]

Very minor point, he didn't want to appear in the dragons brain, but rather in the skull cavity next to the brain, displacing cranial fluid.

Uhh.... I know Dragons are big, but they still wouldn't have space between brain and skull for a Medium creature to fit into.

[Seppo87]

What do you all think?
This is not an house rule I'd be fond of as a player because it would easily let NPCs (small or reduced) do the same to my PC.

It has also the side effect of providing a single optimal strategy for fighting stronger creatures, which in turn creates a metagame response from such creatures, creating a world where everyone is wearing a helmet of "cannot teleport inside here"

[Talothorn]

I'm thinking of teleporting him into the mind of the dragon instead...

[Talothorn]

So is it a Knowledge (arcana) check to know what the brain cavity looks like? Otherwise, what's the percentile failure chance of ending up in a more… unpleasant body cavity? :smalleek:

Yeah, but he has a ridiculous knowledge arcana check anyway. He has studied the skulls and brains of smaller dragons, so he has some idea about the layout, but that would make a botched roll unpleasant to say the least.

[Âmesang]

I'm thinking of teleporting him into the mind of the dragon instead…
I can't help but think that would require some sort of epic psionic power, the psionic equivalent of dreamscape, in which case the character would be subject to the potentially horrific thoughts of the dragon (at the very least imagine the Professor X versus En Sabah Nur mental fight in X-Men: Apocalypse).

…honestly that could prove an interesting boss battle, just so long as it didn't devolve into "you telefrag the dragon's brain." :smallannoyed:

[Talothorn]

I think I would have him fight aspects of the dragons mind to give the rest of the party and advantage in the physical world

[Calthropstu]

I think I would have him fight aspects of the dragons mind to give the rest of the party and advantage in the physical world

I could see this working really well or really bad. It kinda sets a whole solo adventure... while everyone else sits around.

[Talothorn]

The rest of the party would be fighting with the actual dragon

[Inevitability]

You'd be running two combats at the same time, except one combat is all about a single PC and the other is about the rest of the party.

Not to mention that it's illogical. 'the dragon's mind' isn't a physical place. You may be able to go there, but you definitely won't be able to teleport there.

[Talothorn]

You'd be running two combats at the same time, except one combat is all about a single PC and the other is about the rest of the party.

Not to mention that it's illogical. 'the dragon's mind' isn't a physical place. You may be able to go there, but you definitely won't be able to teleport there.

Yeah, the 2 combats at once will be kinda tough, but considering they are against the same foe and they effect each other in real time that might make it easier.

Not a physical place, however, is much less of a concern. It's a high fantasy setting full of crazy and illogical things, so I'm okay with it if it adds to the fun.

[Syll]

I have always thought it amusing you could teleport out of a dragon's stomach, but not into it.

This gave me an idea; you could let him teleport into the dragon's skull... but only if he's already inside the dragon.

Some fluff about being under his skin allowing him to bypass magical defenses that would ordinarily prevent it

[Dr.Zero]

Yeah, but he has a ridiculous knowledge arcana check anyway. He has studied the skulls and brains of smaller dragons, so he has some idea about the layout, but that would make a botched roll unpleasant to say the least.

From SRD:

“Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least one hour.

Even if we ignore that the rules state that he cannot teleport inside a solid object, he must have seen the inside of THAT dragon skull.
While he has not seen it. Not even once.
So let him try to make Teleport even more powerful, and then simply apply the rules: if he studied carefully a specific skull of a dead dragon, he teleports there. If he studied carefully drawings on some book, that is a false destination, with all the consequences.

Be assured, your player is not the first one who comes up with this idea. :smallbiggrin:

[ace rooster]

This makes me think of the star trek thing about using transporters as weapons. A transported piece of ordinance would be the most powerful weapon available if it were not for some unspecified factors making it fail. The idea of using teleportation magic aggressively is not a difficult one to come up with, so it is reasonable to assume that if it worked it would be a pretty standard tactic. ie: already a spell.

From a metagame standpoint; allowing this is just bad, because it makes one spell significantly stronger than any other. The game then simplifies down to who can use this spell better, which is worse when this effect requires homebrew. You are essentially playing an entirely different game at this point.

A line of conjuration spells to permit what you want to do would be reasonable, and they would follow the same rules as any other spell. You could even do something funny, and make spells with a 'blink' component, which only function when you have blink up! Maybe a tactical feat.

Basically, this could be fit into the rules, but simply adding to the power level without cost is a bad idea.