Grod_The_Giant
2016-08-31, 11:32 AM
Is it possible, I wonders, to make a truly precise warrior? A front-line fighter who uses a single light sword, sans shield, and instead of flailing away makes a single measured, accurate stroke at a time? As a bonus, can we do this without magic, and with maximum style?
Obviously Rogue will be the basis of the build-- it was Uncanny Dodge as a master-swordsman's-parry that inspired the whole thing. Swashbuckler is tempting, but I find myself coming back to Thief-- Fast Hands gives us a good use for that off-hand, making it less painful to give up a potential shield or added swing. (Second Story Work is also neat). On top of that, three levels of Battle Master Fighter seem appropriate as well. Dueling Style is a decent damage boost, Feinting Attack could help us with our sneak attacks, Precise Attack is obvious, and Disarming Strike just screams "correct flavor."
vHuman, probably, to start-- it's just too good to avoid. Defensive Duelist would be nice to start our career with, and it isn't entirely redundant even after Uncanny Dodge. Use the feat if you're just barely hit (it works after getting hit, after all) and the feature if you're hit by more. Sentinel has significant DPR potential, and I'd buy the off-turn attack as part of the concept... maybe... it would go well with the Thief's need to fight near your allies to trigger Sneak Attack...
Barbarian 2 has potential, for the unarmored style (we'll have at least a 14 Con for sure, making it equal to light armor, and if we get to 16 or more it's a straight upgrade) and Reckless Attack-- though I'd be cautious about using it before Uncanny Dodge comes into play. Another two levels of Fighter is a... possible alternative, I guess, using one attack to shove and the other to stab, but I'd rather not have the temptation. Monk 2-3 is a potential variant, I guess, though it demands another high stat. Keep the rapier and you don't have the temptation to make extra unarmed strikes, but can make a couple bonus-action Dodges per short rest when times are tough. Go Long Death for the least-magical ability you'd actually use.
Magic, obviously, makes it all easier. Start off with Booming Blade, either by Magic Initiate or by High Elf, and enjoy the easy extra damage and guaranteed level-appropriate DPR. It could even be refluffed as a kiai and a hamstringing strike or one of those "don't notice the wound 'til you move" moments. True Strike (I know...) is also appropriate, along with, say, Mage Armor. Or Find Familiar, if you/your DM accept it using the Help Action.
Overall, I guess we have...
Magic-Heavy Version: vHuman (Magic Initiate: Booming Blade, True Strike, Find Familiar) Fighter 1/Rogue 5/Fighter +2/Rogue +12
Magic-Middling Version: High Elf (Booming Blade) Fighter 1/Rogue 5/Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Rogue +10.
No Magic version: vHuman (Sentinel) Fighter 1/Rogue 5/Fighter +2/Rogue +14? With two levels of Barbarian in there somewhere?
So I guess my question is mostly about ordering-- what's the best order to pick up the various classes to keep doing relevant damage? Is Barbarian worth it? Should I give up on Thief?
JellyPooga
2016-08-31, 11:58 AM
I'd be very tempted to go Arcane Trickster 12/Battlemaster 8 for this build.
Start as Rogue (Int Save proficiency is generally frowned upon, but pretty much all it does is see through illusions; something I feel this build should be good at). Take Rogue to 5th for Uncanny Dodge, then MC to Battlemaster 5 for Extra Attack (not so much to strike the same foe twice, but to take out two foes simultaneously!), then it's Rogue to 12th (Character level 17) and the last 3 levels in Fighter.
It's got a ton of ASI's/Feats, some spellcasting for handy tricks and utility and stacks Maneuver Dice on top of Sneak Attack; if you crit, that's a ton of damage in one hit.
Grod_The_Giant
2016-08-31, 02:52 PM
Only problem with either build is that there's still no reason for not using your off-hand for something - either hitting people or using a shield. The only classes where this applies under current rules are bladesinger and monk.
The problem with a thief rather than a swashbuckler is that it almost feels like you're willfully nerfing your character. You have to use cunning action to disengage, so it uses up your bonus action and you can't make off-hand attacks. A swashbuckler doesn't need to use cunning action, but he can use it to dash if he wants to or he can have a second attack if he misses with his first.
Argh, I know, you're right. D&D has never really supported the idea very well... Thief seems like the best way to get something nonmagical out of it. I could save my bonus action from Disengage by taking Mobility, but the combination of Uncanny Dodge, Defensive Duelist, and Con being my second most important score should do a lot for survivability.
Still, maybe play a left-handed swordsman, use my Attack action to shove or grapple and then swing a shortsword with my off-hand? I know that medieval swordplay involved a lot of throws and grapples...
Would you consider assassin and paladin levels?
I know you said non-magical, but you could just use every slot for smiting instead of casting spells.
Possibly work in half orc and champion for more crits and higher likelihood of a ton of damage in one swift stroke.
I know, it's just... not really what I'm looking for. And Paladin smites are still explosions of holy light; they might not be spells but they're very magic.
It's actually not limited to one sword, just limited to not using a weapon in two hands. So a Marilith Bladesinger is fine despite having 6 swords!
My bad, I was misremembering the bonus. At higher levels it really rewards TWF more than anything else, with Song of Victory. Low levels you're mostly using attack cantrips so it doesn't matter so much, I guess. God, I hate that subclass...
I think the barb 2 / Fighter(Champion) 3 / paladin ? / Arcane Trickster X is your best bet for this. Back in 4e I would have recommended charging for the fistful of extra damage, but they've done quite a bit on eliminating static damage bonuses.
Most of 4/5e optimization is found in having lots of static bonuses, and adding attacks. Notice that the largest ways of getting damage are either through advantage barbarian or multi-attacking riposting fighter, or machine gun sorlock.
Is it possible to combine crossbow expertise with HWM using a longbow or heavy crossbow?
Sharpshooter gives you the same -5/+10. Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter + Battle Master Fighter makes for a lot of damage-- five power attacks, each boosted by Archery Style's +2 and potential use of Precise Attack. But yeah, I'm not really looking for magical builds, as those are pretty obvious.
Corran
2016-08-31, 06:20 PM
Is it possible, I wonders, to make a truly precise warrior? A front-line fighter who uses a single light sword, sans shield, and instead of flailing away makes a single measured, accurate stroke at a time? As a bonus, can we do this without magic, and with maximum style?
Hmmm, obviously rogue, as you so rightly mention down below. The ''sans shield'' part is a bit tricky for what I had in mind, but I'll try to do my best keeping in mind this restriction.
Question for you: Is grappling with your free hand going against the flavour of the build you want to create?
Obviously Rogue will be the basis of the build-- it was Uncanny Dodge as a master-swordsman's-parry that inspired the whole thing. Swashbuckler is tempting, but I find myself coming back to Thief-- Fast Hands gives us a good use for that off-hand, making it less painful to give up a potential shield or added swing. (Second Story Work is also neat). On top of that, three levels of Battle Master Fighter seem appropriate as well. Dueling Style is a decent damage boost, Feinting Attack could help us with our sneak attacks, Precise Attack is obvious, and Disarming Strike just screams "correct flavor."
If you end up going with the thief archtype, consider seriously going all the way up to rogue 18, as the level 17 archtype feature of the thief (ie thief's reflexes) is pretty good, and so is elusive for someone who spends a lot of time in the frontline (I am assuming this build does so, am I wrong in assuming so?). So in that case, you might want to consider straying from the rogue class for only 2 or 3 levels maximum (preferably 2 with what I have in mind right now, ie barb 2/thief rogue 18, will expand on this later).
If you end up going with 3 levels in battlemaster though, I am really curious why you didn't include riposte as one of your 3 known maneuvres. I think riposte is totally within the theme, and it is also the natural complement to uncanny dodge (that you seem keen on having), in regards to your reaction. So, if it were me, I would have riposte be my first choice, hands down.
vHuman, probably, to start-- it's just too good to avoid. Defensive Duelist would be nice to start our career with, and it isn't entirely redundant even after Uncanny Dodge. Use the feat if you're just barely hit (it works after getting hit, after all) and the feature if you're hit by more. Sentinel has significant DPR potential, and I'd buy the off-turn attack as part of the concept... maybe... it would go well with the Thief's need to fight near your allies to trigger Sneak Attack...
Regarding human, yes, unfortunately most of the time it is just the optimal choice, and I suspect that this will be the case here too. I'll review this choice at the end of my post, after I have concluded in my suggested builds.
Regarding defensive duelist, I am not a fan of. Now I see that this feat is probably the reason why you didnt take riposte as one of your battlemater maneuvres, but between the two I would pick riposte. If you really want the feat then fair enough, but notice how the added AC measures up only against a single attack.
Regarding sentinel, well, it is really difficult to set up a rogue in such a way that would make use of this feat. To use sentinel effectively, means that you give the enemies enough reason not to target you in the first place (or at least not to focus solely on you, and thus spend a couple of attacks on your adjacent ally, and thus trigger sentinel, which is off-turn sneak attack damage at no resource cost, other than taking the feat ofc). Set up your build in the right way, and you can have constand off turn attacks due to sentinel. How do you set your build for using sentinel effectively? Easy. Two things. Riposte and good effective AC. The combination of these two, acts as a deterrent to enemies focusing you (as they should in order to avoid sentinel). The riposte part requires a 3 battlemaster dip, so that is doable according to one of your designs. The effective AC is a bit trickier though, due to the ''sans shield'' clause. If you had allowed for a shield, then with just changing the fighting style to defense you would have an AC of 19-21 (depending on if you went with a str or a dex build, and on the character level), and I would suggest AT as the archtype for dropping a blur on top of that, for using sentinel with maximum efficiency. However, the no shield clause, makes me think if a bladesinger 2(/ battlemaster 3)/ rogue 18 (/15) could pull using sentinel effectively. Probably an AT rogue in order to make good use of the relatively good int score we would need for bladesinging. I hesitate to go into more details regarding such a build, as you seem to prefer a more ''mundane'' build, so I wouldnt want to go on writing and writing about sth that might not interest you. Still, I present it as a thought (havent thought of it in depth though). Instictively, bladesining pairs well with the single weapon style you have selected for this build. You can also probably reflavour it to be less... magical, I suppose?
Barbarian 2 has potential, for the unarmored style (we'll have at least a 14 Con for sure, making it equal to light armor, and if we get to 16 or more it's a straight upgrade) and Reckless Attack-- though I'd be cautious about using it before Uncanny Dodge comes into play. Another two levels of Fighter is a... possible alternative, I guess, using one attack to shove and the other to stab, but I'd rather not have the temptation. Monk 2-3 is a potential variant, I guess, though it demands another high stat. Keep the rapier and you don't have the temptation to make extra unarmed strikes, but can make a couple bonus-action Dodges per short rest when times are tough. Go Long Death for the least-magical ability you'd actually use.
Before you start considering the various dips, you need to decide how you will boost your dpr. Meaning that you either need a way to attack more than once, or a way to generate advantage, or ideally both (all rogues should look into that). Since twf and using a shield (thus shield master) are both out, that leaves us with a couple of options:
1) grappling with the off hand (barbarian 5 dip reccomended to cap the expertised athletics checks with advantage when raging, and to ofc get the extra attack needed for grappling) and obviously the grappler feat (again, do you feel that grappling is out of place for the style of this character?).
2) Reckless attack, thus again a barbarian dip, but this time it is barb 2, thus allowing you to focus on your rogue class and helps with your level progression). If you go with reckless attack, then riposte loses a lot of steam, so does defensive duelist I think, but that perhaps means that you can go all the way up to rogue 18 for 9d6 sneak attack and all the helpful high level features. At least this way, you will use uncanny dodge very often (though you wont necessarily make the most of it, as you will be halving damage already halved). If it is any consolation, elusive with pair really nicely with reckless attack when you hit 20:smalleek: character level.
3) Familiar is an easy (yet unreliable) way to do it, but somehow I think overused and I dont think it meshes pretty well with what you are planning to do with this build.
4) Extra attack from fighter 5, and hope precision and action surge will be enough to keep your dpr high? Feinting for the rare cases when you need to generate advantage?
So the possible options so far, are, 1) barb 2 (reckless attack), 2) barb 5 (reckless attack and possiby grappler, extra attack), 3) Familiar (allows more freedom in what dip you choose), 4) fighter 3/5 (action surge, precision /extra attack)
ps: I stay away from offering an opinion for the monk dip, dont know the class very well.
Magic, obviously, makes it all easier. Start off with Booming Blade, either by Magic Initiate or by High Elf, and enjoy the easy extra damage and guaranteed level-appropriate DPR. It could even be refluffed as a kiai and a hamstringing strike or one of those "don't notice the wound 'til you move" moments. True Strike (I know...) is also appropriate, along with, say, Mage Armor. Or Find Familiar, if you/your DM accept it using the Help Action.
Overall, I guess we have...
Magic-Heavy Version: vHuman (Magic Initiate: Booming Blade, True Strike, Find Familiar) Fighter 1/Rogue 5/Fighter +2/Rogue +12
Magic-Middling Version: High Elf (Booming Blade) Fighter 1/Rogue 5/Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Rogue +10.
No Magic version: vHuman (Sentinel) Fighter 1/Rogue 5/Fighter +2/Rogue +14? With two levels of Barbarian in there somewhere?
So I guess my question is mostly about ordering-- what's the best order to pick up the various classes to keep doing relevant damage? Is Barbarian worth it? Should I give up on Thief?
Regarding the magic-heavy version, I wholeheartedly agree with your progression. Familiar takes care of increasing your hit chance, and thus dpr, and since you are using BB there is no need for extra attack. Action surge and precision will be additional help and/or backup if the familiar bites the dust, though you will have a hard time when imposed disadvantage by an enemy who is smart enough to take out your familiar pronto (that is where feinting comes in so you are set). With this set up, it might be worth looking at riposte too, though that would make you leave out the very thematic disarming strike. Thief seems like a good fit, especially considering that you wil eventually gain access to thief's reflexes (yes, at 20 level, still... it is important to be rewarded with sth good if you indeed reach that level), though there is certainly enough reason to consider AT instead, as that you automatically free you a feat to use elsewhere (or allow you to look for a race other than vhuman). As for true strike.... drop it. Only way it will be helpful is if you have disadvantage, and your familiar is dead, and you are out of sd. Which means almost never. And even if that ever happens, meh, you still lose a whole round and there is always the dager of losing concentration of it.
Regarding the magic-middling version, I fail to see the benefit of including both a fighter 3 and a barb 2 dip. I would suggest to just focus on one of those dips. You can even take one of those dips up to 5th level, for the extra attack if you think you need it, but I dont like the combination to be honest, cant really put my finger on what I dont like right now (a bit tired), but it just feels counterproductive.
Regarding the no magic version, I would probably go barb5/thief15, and I would let rage and cunning action deal with the heat. Not sure about the progression, but there are several threads discussing barb5/rogue15, so I guess you would find some good answers with a quick search.
Or just barb2/rogue18, this way I get some better benefis sooner (reliable talent, slippery mind, etc) and I will have a pretty good ''capstone'', though I wonder how well I would cope without having the extra attack (ie I will only have one attack with which I will use reckless attack constantly). Patience would be key for this last build. Progression would be barb 1 --> rogue 5 --> barb 2 --> rogue 18.
Since you made a mention to sentinel, let me show you what an ideal progression would be for a sentinel build. Notice that I do not classify the sentinel build to be non-magical, as it uses some magic (despite a dump int score, ''carries around a wizardy for dummies magazine''), though everything during the attack sequense is strictly non magical. Progression would be fighter 1 --> rogue 5 --> fighter 3 --> rogue 7 --> fighter 5 --> rogue 13 (character level 18, I am still puzzled about the two remaining levels). Vhuman, feats: 1) SM, 5) +2dex, 11) sentinel, 13) resilient wis, 15) +2 dex, 17) +2 con?. Starting stats: str 12, dex 16, con 16, int 8, wis 13, cha 8. Skills: athletics (exp), intimidation (exp), stealth (exp), perception (exp), sleight of hand, and one more. Battlemaster: defense fs, riposte, precision, feinting. AT rogue: BB (back up tactics), find familiar, blur, invisibility, (protection from evil or enlarge/reduce), etc.
Edit: Oops, completely neglected the ''one swing'' part. So do not consider anything I said involving extra attack. That puts more weight on generating advantage (reckless, familiar, feinting) and on BB I guess.
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