Fear and Fighters

[JellyPooga]

So I've not had a lot of experience playing fighter-ish types; I'm a Rogue player, even if my character has the Fighter or Barbarian Class. I'm just starting a new game and a new character and decided to go for a real front-liner; brutish and tanky. Unfortunately, despite my best efforts, his Wisdom isn't ever going to be high and he's not likely to pick up Resilient (Wis) or any Class features that give immunity or even advantage vs. Fear and this feels like a problem. Heck, I went for the Soldier Background and one of the personality traits espouses the characters fearlessness that is not supported in any way by the typical Soldier Classes features.

In Pathfinder, the standard Fighter got bonuses against fear effects, but there doesn't appear to be anything of the sort in 5ed. What gives? I don't expect many Fighters or Barbarians put significant effort into improving Wisdom and few have Wisdom Save proficiency, so what you end up with is the "weedy" Wizard, the "I don't want to be on the front line" support Cleric, the "I'll control the battlefield from back here" Druid and the "I'm not going to stand still" high level Monk staying put to fight the Dragon, while the Fighter, Ranger and Barbarian run screaming out of the cave. Even the "cowardly" Rogue eventually picks up Wis Save prof. At least the Paladin will stay put, I guess.

Am I missing some crucial ability or feat, aside from Resilient (Wis), that could give a Fighter a fighting chance of standing strong in the face of fear? Or am I just going to have to rely on a spellslinging buddy casting Prot. vs. E/G, Calm Emotions or similar to help me out in this regard?

[Tanarii]

Indomitable is what you're looking for.

Edit: Also, take into account that a personality trait for not being afraid (or being emotionless) under normal circumstances, including combat, doesn't necessarily have to mean you're immune or resistant to magically induced fear.

[MrStabby]

Well there is the lucky feat.

Magic initiate will give some useful spells (bless helps with saves for example).

Costing a feat is less of an issue for a fighter - they get loads.

[R.Shackleford]

So I've not had a lot of experience playing fighter-ish types; I'm a Rogue player, even if my character has the Fighter or Barbarian Class. I'm just starting a new game and a new character and decided to go for a real front-liner; brutish and tanky. Unfortunately, despite my best efforts, his Wisdom isn't ever going to be high and he's not likely to pick up Resilient (Wis) or any Class features that give immunity or even advantage vs. Fear and this feels like a problem. Heck, I went for the Soldier Background and one of the personality traits espouses the characters fearlessness that is not supported in any way by the typical Soldier Classes features.

In Pathfinder, the standard Fighter got bonuses against fear effects, but there doesn't appear to be anything of the sort in 5ed. What gives? I don't expect many Fighters or Barbarians put significant effort into improving Wisdom and few have Wisdom Save proficiency, so what you end up with is the "weedy" Wizard, the "I don't want to be on the front line" support Cleric, the "I'll control the battlefield from back here" Druid and the "I'm not going to stand still" high level Monk staying put to fight the Dragon, while the Fighter, Ranger and Barbarian run screaming out of the cave. Even the "cowardly" Rogue eventually picks up Wis Save prof. At least the Paladin will stay put, I guess.

Am I missing some crucial ability or feat, aside from Resilient (Wis), that could give a Fighter a fighting chance of standing strong in the face of fear? Or am I just going to have to rely on a spellslinging buddy casting Prot. vs. E/G, Calm Emotions or similar to help me out in this regard?

WotC doesn't exactly do martials well, neither did pathfinder as those bonuses to fear meant squat, and basically you are all brawns and no real brains.

Who said rogue's were cowardly? Just because they use tactics and their brain to fight doesn't really make them cowardly. Smart =/= coward.

Also, the best Fighter is really the Rogue. The Strength Based rogue can make one hell of Fighter. High AC, good damage, skills, athletics expertise (maneuvers), tactical, mobile, and much more...

Edit

Indomitable is a piece of crap feature that looks all nice and shiny on paper till you realize that you have no good chance of passing a mid to high DC with your second roll as you did with your first. Plus is it ONCE PER LONG REST just makes this a crap feature all around.

Change it to short rest and make the reroll a con save (which in 3.5 you could change Wis mod to Con mod for will saves so there is some precedent) and you have a decent level 9 feature.

[JellyPooga]

Indomitable is what you're looking for.

Doesn't come online until 9th level. The Fear spell comes online at 5th; a whole 4 levels earlier and the Sea Hag is only CR:2 and has a fear effect, to provide a couple of examples.

Even then Indomitable is only 1/day until even higher level. Hardly representative of the "fearless" Fighter that will "stare down a Hell-hound", I feel.

[Tanarii]

Doesn't come online until 9th level. The Fear spell comes online at 5th; a whole 4 levels earlier and the Sea Hag is only CR:2 and has a fear effect, to provide a couple of examples.

Even then Indomitable is only 1/day until even higher level. Hardly representative of the "fearless" Fighter that will "stare down a Hell-hound", I feel.
Hell Hounds don't induce magical fear. So you're fine. :smallyuk:

Seriously though, I do take your point that if you *want* a Fighter that is resistant to (edit: feature/ability/spell) induced fear (magical or otherwise), it requires jumping through some hoops: Racial, Feat, Spell (ie EK & prot. from good/evil), etc. I don't have a problem with that, as I don't think low-level Fighters should automatically be especially resistant to such things. Clearly you feel otherwise.

[smcmike]

Some of them are hidden in subclasses, but barbarian, fighter, and ranger all have defenses against fear.

Frenzy barbarian is immune while raging.

Fighter gets indomitable, extra ASIs, and EKs can cast Protection.

Hunter Rangers can get Steel Will for advantage v fear.

[JellyPooga]

I don't think low-level Fighters should automatically be especially resistant to such things. Clearly you feel otherwise.

Hmm...I suppose you're right. As you say, "mundane" fear is something that only ever gets roleplayed anyway, it's only extraordinary, supernatural or magical fear that there's rules for and your typical low-level Fighter type from fiction tends to be fairly weak against those kind of things.

Maybe I will look at springing for Resilient (Wis) after all...

[Biggstick]

Some of them are hidden in subclasses, but barbarian, fighter, and ranger all have defenses against fear.

Frenzy barbarian is immune while raging.

Fighter gets indomitable, extra ASIs, and EKs can cast Protection.

Hunter Rangers can get Steel Will for advantage v fear.

Rangers are also likely to have at least a 14 in Wisdom as it is their primary casting stat.

If you're playing a Fighter and you don't want to get feared, set up an odd numbered Wisdom score and take the Resilient: Wisdom. If it's important to you, spend the feat on it.

Also a great point for Frenzy Barbarians. Totem Barbarians biggest sell imo is the level 3 capability. Sure the level 6 and 14 have some pretty nice features, but immunity to charm and fear at level 6 while raging?! Now that's a feature that most any martial class would love to have.

[JeenLeen]

I've vote on the Lucky feat, as mentioned earlier. You can use it re-roll a save verses Fear or use it for multiple other reasons. I could see Resilient (Wisdom) as a decent choice for a Fighter, though, especially if you get to high levels and have your other stuff covered (stats where you like, a good attack feat if desired).

Asking a spellcaster buddy to prep one of those spells isn't a bad idea, though. Such can be crucial for you or other party members, and, at least at low-levels, it seems like most casters have more spells they can prep than spells they can cast, so it shouldn't be too much of a hindrance. (Plus I can think of some good, if situational, uses for Calm Emotions outside of combat, or pre-combat (buy time to buff or position). And good if you need to run away.)
Cooperation between teammates is a good idea (though I understand disliking feeling dependent on the caster.) Just think of it like a healer, but for status ailments.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Play a Halfling and get Advantage on saves against fear?

[LaserFace]

How many Fear effects out there aren't magic-based? My guess is not many, only example that comes to mind is a Dragon's frightful presence. I think a Fighter should be better-able to handle it but it doesn't seem like a frequent problem, and Indomitable and one of many ASIs spent on Resilient (Wis) represent some hardening. Also, I think just about any PC should have the capacity to be Brave, so I don't think it's necessarily wrong for some Wizards to be better at this than some Fighters.

But, regardless, I think most Wis saves are probably going to be magical in nature, and I would likely interpret a Fighter failing a Wis save not as an indication of lacking resolve but just not being prepared to handle people screwing your brain up. If there were to be Morale effects, I'd probably give Fighters good bonuses, though (as well as anyone with the Soldier background).

[Segev]

Won't two levels of Barbarian let you get the Rage feature that makes you immune to mind-affecting things while raging? Or am I mixing something up? (I know you may not WANT to splash two levels of barbarian; I'm asking because it might be a way to get it if you want it badly enough.)

[JellyPooga]

Play a Halfling and get Advantage on saves against fear?

Heh...the character in question is half something, just not Halfling. He's a Half-Orc and more "cowardly" than someone half his size!

Halflings might be fearless, but they're not great melee fighters as a rule. Which is not to say they're not good in melee, as such; just that they don't make good front-line fighter-types.

[R.Shackleford]

Won't two levels of Barbarian let you get the Rage feature that makes you immune to mind-affecting things while raging? Or am I mixing something up? (I know you may not WANT to splash two levels of barbarian; I'm asking because it might be a way to get it if you want it badly enough.)

Mindless Rage

Beginning at 6th level, you can’t be charmed or frightened while raging. If you are charmed or frightened when you enter your rage, the effect is suspended for the duration of the rage.

[Corran]

I don't expect many Fighters or Barbarians put significant effort into improving Wisdom and few have Wisdom Save proficiency
I dont know what the majority of players does, but boosting your wisdom saves is something that requires attention. In fact, it is quite often that I have to re-examine the whole progression of a martial build I am making just for fun, so that I can make sure that wisdom saves got boosted relatively early.

As fighters go, they do have indomitable (as mentioned), and they get a lot of feats (as mentioned), so picking resilient wisdom wont be that hard, and along with indomitable they will be fine for the most part. Also it is not difficult to end up with a wisdom score of 12-14 with point buy and resilience, so fighters dont really have a problem dealing with wisdom saves (and thus with fear effects). Additionaly, you can take lucky or magic initiate (double ninja'ed). Wait.... magic initiate bard for heroism, no one has said that yet, right? Woohoo!!!!

Regarding passing from one edition to the other and fighters losing their bonus against fear effects, it has to do with how WotC addressed the saving throws, giving essentially one good and one bad save to each class. A more showcasing example of this change is paladins not getting con save prof, when back in 3e their fortitude rocked! For the fighter, con saves (aka fortitude) was more thematic than wisdom (will), so they got that. But still, the many feats that allow you to easily pick resilient, along with indomitable, kind of replicate the older edition's trends regarding fighter and saving throws.

So fighters can get resilient wis and have indomitable, paladins have aura of protection and wis save prof, berserkers get mindless rage, rangers have wis save prof, melee rogues get slippery mind (too late though, in actual play that might cause problems, especially if we are talking about a lightly multiclassed -in order to toughen up a little- rogue), etc. It is the poor totem barbarians that are screwed up. They cant spare as many points as the fighter for wis, they dont get as many feats, and they dont have indomitable. Really, the fighter is fine, indomitable and their many feats can patch wis saves very nicely.

[JellyPooga]

How many Fear effects out there aren't magic-based?

Some of these may be arguable as to how "magical" they are, others are outright magical. I'm not including any Spellcasting (innate or otherwise), but will include effects that duplicate spells (such as the Beholders' Eye Ray). So here goes...

Banshee (Horrifying Visage)
Beholder (Eye Ray: Fear)
Cloaker (Moan)
Nalfeshnee (Horror Nimbus)
Quasit (Scare)
Chain Devil (Unnerving Mask)
Pit Fiend (Fear Aura)
Dragon (Frightful Presence)
Ghost (Horrifying Visage)
Sea Hag (Horrific Appearance)
Lich (Legendary Action: Frightening Gaze)
Mummy (Dreadful Glare)
Revenant (Vengeful Glare, secondary effect)
Satyr (Satyr Pipes: Frightening Strain)
Scarecrow (Terrifying Gaze)
Androsphinx (Roar)
Tarrasque (Frightful Presence)


I also considered adding Rust Monster to the list.

[Segev]

Mindless Rage

Beginning at 6th level, you can’t be charmed or frightened while raging. If you are charmed or frightened when you enter your rage, the effect is suspended for the duration of the rage.

Ah. That's a bit high for a "dip" from fighter, so no, probably not helpful to JellyPooga.

[R.Shackleford]

Ah. That's a bit high for a "dip" from fighter, so no, probably not helpful to JellyPooga.

Yeah, way to many levels for a dip

I do like the Wild Magic Sorcerer 6/ Frenzy Barbarian 6 build I used in a one shot. Totally had butterflies and flower petles flying around me due to my Wild Magic roll lol


Edit

I would like to point out that fear isn't really all that terrible compared to what some people think it does.


"A frightened creature has disadvantage on ability checks and attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight. The creature can’t willingly move closer to the source of its fear."


Disadvantage on attacks hurt, but the barbarian can negate that. Can't move closer? Ranged weapons.

Though it is nice to see that casters aren't really all that effected by fear, save spells have good range.

[JellyPooga]

I would like to point out that fear isn't really all that terrible compared to what some people think it does.

"A frightened creature has disadvantage on ability checks and attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight. The creature can’t willingly move closer to the source of its fear.

It's pretty crippling for anyone who can't reliably get Advantage to negate the Disadvantage. Especially for Rogues, who rely more on Advantage (perhaps) than others (P.S. My Half-Orc is a Fighter with a Rogue dip). Not moving closer? Also fairly crippling for any melee-focused character, especially if your build is a high-mobility one (guess what else is a feature of my character! See why I'm worried about fear effects now? :smallbiggrin:). Taking pot-shots with your ranged weapon, that you've only really got as a back-up, when you're built for melee is small compensation.
I've been looking at magical methods of bolstering my bravery and it seems there's...not a great deal;

Heroism and Protection vs. E/G give some short term immunity, but 1 minute and 10 minutes respectively is hardly a fire-and-forget. Long enough for one, maybe two fights, which should be sufficient, but it means casting it on the spot (unless you know what you're about to fight). They're both nicely low level spells though, coming online right out the gate at level 1.

Calm Emotions is not actually that much better than Heroism with regards to countering fear effects, except that it can affect multiple targets, has a range of 60ft (as opposed to Touch) and has a minor offensive application. Same 1 minute duration, but a 2nd level spell.

Heroes Feast grants 24-hour protection, but is a 6th level spell; not an option until level 11 (which is a ways away).

Then there's Mind Blank, the 8th level uber-protection from mental effect.

Aaaand that's about your lot. Enhance Ability and some other spells like Bless give a bonus or advantage to Saving Throws, but as far as directly preventing or countering the frightened condition, magic isn't a huge help either.

I guess the devs wanted fear to be a thing that happens in 5ed.

[R.Shackleford]

It's pretty crippling for anyone who can't reliably get Advantage to negate the Disadvantage. Especially for Rogues, who rely more on Advantage (perhaps) than others (P.S. My Half-Orc is a Fighter with a Rogue dip). Not moving closer? Also fairly crippling for any melee-focused character, especially if your build is a high-mobility one (guess what else is a feature of my character! See why I'm worried about fear effects now? :smallbiggrin:). Taking pot-shots with your ranged weapon, that you've only really got as a back-up, when you're built for melee is small compensation.
I've been looking at magical methods of bolstering my bravery and it seems there's...not a great deal;

Heroism and Protection vs. E/G give some short term immunity, but 1 minute and 10 minutes respectively is hardly a fire-and-forget. Long enough for one, maybe two fights, which should be sufficient, but it means casting it on the spot (unless you know what you're about to fight). They're both nicely low level spells though, coming online right out the gate at level 1.

Calm Emotions is not actually that much better than Heroism with regards to countering fear effects, except that it can affect multiple targets, has a range of 60ft (as opposed to Touch) and has a minor offensive application. Same 1 minute duration, but a 2nd level spell.

Heroes Feast grants 24-hour protection, but is a 6th level spell; not an option until level 11 (which is a ways away).

Then there's Mind Blank, the 8th level uber-protection from mental effect.

Aaaand that's about your lot. Enhance Ability and some other spells like Bless give a bonus or advantage to Saving Throws, but as far as directly preventing or countering the frightened condition, magic isn't a huge help either.

I guess the devs wanted fear to be a thing that happens in 5ed.

Worried about fear?

Grapple Feat + Put on a blindfold (no Strength Check disadvantage) = Grapple and then restrain source of fear and let allies absolutely murder the source of your fear. Need to get closer to the creature? Have someone drag you or have your shadow monk friend teleport with you :p

[Specter]

Fighters get Indomitable and can grab Resilient (WIS) woth their extra ASIs. Frenzy Barbarians don't even feel fear raging.

[R.Shackleford]

Fighters get Indomitable and can grab Resilient (WIS) woth their extra ASIs. Frenzy Barbarians don't even feel fear raging.

Indomitable is 1/Long Rest, better hope there aren't two sources. Also if you are using this on an effect you didn't have a good chance of passing originally... You still don't have a good chance of passing it.

Also, feats are optional, Fighters don't get bonus feats, they get bonus ASI. You have to ask specific permission to take a Feat. Plus feats aren't a class option, it is a character option. It isn't the fighter giving you the resistance or immunity to fear but an outside source.

The Frenzy Barbarian is a good example of a class feature giving you the resistance to fear (resistance as in you temporarily get rid of it).

[Ruslan]

Plus feats aren't a class option, it is a character option. It isn't the fighter giving you the resistance or immunity to fear but an outside source.If it's any help, consider the fact that Fighters get more feats than any other class. The added feats (NumFeatsForFighters - NumFeatsForOtherClasses) can very well be considered a Fighter class feature.

[R.Shackleford]

If it's any help, consider the fact that Fighters get more feats than any other class. The added feats (NumFeatsForFighters - NumFeatsForOtherClasses) can very well be considered a Fighter class feature.

Nope.

They get more ASI, not feats.

What the game assumes you are getting, at least what the dev team has said, is an increase to your ability scores.

Feats or Bonus Feats are not a Fighter class feature. Even if they are, go look at the discussions in 3e ;), feats that anyone can take are not a class option but a character option.

But again, nowhere does the fighter class say they get bonus feats. They get ASI, if you have a nice DM you can trade the ASI for the feat but even then the DM may say that the additional ASI can't be traded for a feat.

So the class feature isn't what you or others say it is and it is completely and utterly reliant on an outside force to be half way decent.

The two greatest fighters that WotC has put out is the Warblade and the 4e Fighter due to the fact that they have actual class features and don't rely on character options.


Edit

Under Fighter Class Features

Ability Score Improvement

When you reach 4th level, and again at 6th, 8th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

Under Rogue Class Features

Ability Score Improvement

When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 10th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

Under Everyone Else (I think)
Ability Score Improvement

When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

The classes don't assume feats because feats are optional. Feats aren't a class choice but a DM/Character Option.

[MaxWilson]

In Pathfinder, the standard Fighter got bonuses against fear effects, but there doesn't appear to be anything of the sort in 5ed. What gives? I don't expect many Fighters or Barbarians put significant effort into improving Wisdom and few have Wisdom Save proficiency, so what you end up with is the "weedy" Wizard, the "I don't want to be on the front line" support Cleric, the "I'll control the battlefield from back here" Druid and the "I'm not going to stand still" high level Monk staying put to fight the Dragon, while the Fighter, Ranger and Barbarian run screaming out of the cave. Even the "cowardly" Rogue eventually picks up Wis Save prof. At least the Paladin will stay put, I guess.

Am I missing some crucial ability or feat, aside from Resilient (Wis), that could give a Fighter a fighting chance of standing strong in the face of fear? Or am I just going to have to rely on a spellslinging buddy casting Prot. vs. E/G, Calm Emotions or similar to help me out in this regard?

It's true that Heroism is a great spell which just happens to bestow immunity to fear, but even more relevant is the fact that being frightened in the general case doesn't force you to run screaming out of the cave. (The Fear spell is a rare exception.) It just prevents you from willingly getting any closer to the source of your fear, which means you can hold the line just fine. You just can't expect to advance much until you've mastered your fear.

Resilient (Wisdom) is okay but the best counter to fear is to just have partymates with strong ranged attacks so that you don't have to advance in order to triumph.

BTW, technically two fighters who are both frightened can take turns shoving each other 5' closer to the source of their fear. :)

============================================


If it's any help, consider the fact that Fighters get more feats than any other class. The added feats (NumFeatsForFighters - NumFeatsForOtherClasses) can very well be considered a Fighter class feature.

Yes, plus the fact that fighters are so SAD gives them even more "spare" feats compared to e.g. monks, rangers, bladesingers, paladins, etc.

[R.Shackleford]

It's true that Heroism is a great spell which just happens to bestow immunity to fear, but even more relevant is the fact that being frightened in the general case doesn't force you to run screaming out of the cave. (The Fear spell is a rare exception.) It just prevents you from willingly getting any closer to the source of your fear, which means you can hold the line just fine. You just can't expect to advance much until you've mastered your fear.

Resilient (Wisdom) is okay but the best counter to fear is to just have partymates with strong ranged attacks so that you don't have to advance in order to triumph.

BTW, technically two fighters who are both frightened can take turns shoving each other 5' closer to the source of their fear. :)

============================================



Yes, plus the fact that fighters are so SAD gives them even more "spare" feats compared to e.g. monks, rangers, bladesingers, paladins, etc.

Again. No. They do not gain more feats. They gain more ASI.

Plus those bonus ASI are pretty much wasted on a class that has no in class use for them outside of Con and Main Attack Stat. Eldritch Knight gets a bit of bonus from boosting Int, but even then, it comes to the same ending as if they boosted strength due to their small amount of spells and limited choices.


Again, in case anyone is confused. The Fighter does not gain bonus feats. They gain bonus ASI. And even if they did gain bonus feats, go read up on all the great discussions from 3.5 on why something that isn't a class feature isn't a class feature.

If anyone can show me where the Fighter gives you bonus feats as part of a class feature I would love to see it.

[LaserFace]

Some of these may be arguable as to how "magical" they are, others are outright magical. I'm not including any Spellcasting (innate or otherwise), but will include effects that duplicate spells (such as the Beholders' Eye Ray). So here goes...

Banshee (Horrifying Visage)
Beholder (Eye Ray: Fear)
Cloaker (Moan)
Nalfeshnee (Horror Nimbus)
Quasit (Scare)
Chain Devil (Unnerving Mask)
Pit Fiend (Fear Aura)
Dragon (Frightful Presence)
Ghost (Horrifying Visage)
Sea Hag (Horrific Appearance)
Lich (Legendary Action: Frightening Gaze)
Mummy (Dreadful Glare)
Revenant (Vengeful Glare, secondary effect)
Satyr (Satyr Pipes: Frightening Strain)
Scarecrow (Terrifying Gaze)
Androsphinx (Roar)
Tarrasque (Frightful Presence)


I also considered adding Rust Monster to the list.

A lot more than I anticipated. Yeah, it's kind of dissatisfying to know as a Fighter you're vulnerable to all these Spooky Scary things.

I took a moment to flip through the PHB and realized plenty of classes suck at their Wis saves, though. Diamond Soul is all the way up at 14th, Slippery Mind is 15th ... by then, Fighter has 2/long rest Indomitable, which at that point seems about as good as Proficiency for 2 individual Wis saves /day (if you didn't use them elsewhere, but that seems more a perk than disadvantage) ... better than nothing but feels like it lags in power by that point.

I'd like to see Fighters a little more on-par, maybe even ahead in some niche scenarios, not behind. But, I guess we just have to accept at low levels, everyone is about-equal in their (poor) ability to withstand fear effects, and at high levels Fighters are vulnerable to anything dedicated to it.

If your game allows feats, I think Resilient (Wis) actually does a lot to alleviate the problem. In fact, Indomitable looks kind of excellent when you have that on the table.

[djreynolds]

You must take resilient wisdom, it is a must. And lucky isn't far behind.

In CoS, Strahd wrecked us with his sweet talk. We won the day, but we lost an additional two tonight. And one was really close.

At low levels being charmed or frightened for a minute, is huge. It takes two good swings to drop a low level wizard after sidestepping the fighter. I might even recommend taking this feat as soon as 6th level at least, and maybe even at 4th and beginning with a 13 in wisdom.

Hold person, charm, etc...

Does it suck that a fighter doesn't shrug off fear? Yes.

Is it out of place? I do not know.

I imagine a fighter is usually coming from mundane beginnings. Its not that you are a coward, its just what you are experiencing as a new recruit, is surreal to say the least. Yeah you are in shape and rugged, but perhaps you haven't seen the wrong side of life or the first engagement when you charged into the teeth of the enemy was too real. And no training is going to prepare you.

There is crazy story of an Old Ranger Colonel, who thought it might be a good idea to actually wound trainees by shooting them in the leg, as it is difficult to push yourself when you are in real pain. It is often why cardiovascular exercise is used to push men and women to their limits, often it is used as punishment. "You all know the feeling when you go out for a jog and you are out of shape and feel like you are going to die."

Perhaps the paladin of vengeance has come from a horrible beginning in life, or the other paladins are full of faith.

[JellyPooga]

A lot more than I anticipated. Yeah, it's kind of dissatisfying to know as a Fighter you're vulnerable to all these Spooky Scary things.

The one that really bugs me, more than any of the others is the Quasit. It's Scare ability is only DC:10 and it allows a save every turn, but a 20th level Fighter with Wis:10 (assuming he didn't take Resilient) only has about a 50/50 chance of shrugging that off (because let's be real; he ain't wasting one of his uses of Indomitable on a friggin' Quasit). That just doesn't seem right; to get to level 20, he's probably killed dozens of Quasits and he doesn't just laugh in the face of their puny Scare ability...he's actively worried about it ruining his day.

[Segev]

Be aware that the "frightened" condition may not be the limit of what a "fear" effect can do. I believe (though I could be misremembering) that the fear spell, for example, not only causes you to be Frightened, but also compels you to flee from the caster.

So it can be of concern to Mr. Fighter, and even causes Mr. Mage difficulty if he fails his save because he's too busy running to cast his ranged spells at the source of his fear.



If anyone can show me where the Fighter gives you bonus feats as part of a class feature I would love to see it.

If your DM is allowing feats, ASI can be traded for them. That's in the rules, and is, in fact, how feats work.

So you're really just saying, "If the DM isn't allowing feats, then the fighter doesn't get bonus feats." Which is practically a tautology.

[Grod_The_Giant]

But again, nowhere does the fighter class say they get bonus feats. They get ASI, if you have a nice DM you can trade the ASI for the feat but even then the DM may say that the additional ASI can't be traded for a feat.
That would be an... extremely weird reading, with no support in the text itself. You can't really criticize a class because a DM might nerf it with a houserule. But yeah, Fighters are much sadder in a no-feats game. Although you can at least afford to dump one or two in secondary stats, and the SAD-ness of a Champion or Battle Master means that you can afford to start with a decent Wisdom. (16 Str/Dex, 16 Con, 14 Wis, say).


It's true that Heroism is a great spell which just happens to bestow immunity to fear, but even more relevant is the fact that being frightened in the general case doesn't force you to run screaming out of the cave. (The Fear spell is a rare exception.) It just prevents you from willingly getting any closer to the source of your fear, which means you can hold the line just fine. You just can't expect to advance much until you've mastered your fear.
True enough. In my most recent game, the Fighter got hit by a Wrathful Smite and failed his save against the fear, then promptly rolled very well and took the boss' head off anyway.


The one that really bugs me, more than any of the others is the Quasit. It's Scare ability is only DC:10 and it allows a save every turn, but a 20th level Fighter with Wis:10 (assuming he didn't take Resilient) only has about a 50/50 chance of shrugging that off (because let's be real; he ain't wasting one of his uses of Indomitable on a friggin' Quasit). That just doesn't seem right; to get to level 20, he's probably killed dozens of Quasits and he doesn't just laugh in the face of their puny Scare ability...he's actively worried about it ruining his day.
Yeah, that's a general problem with 5e's nonscaling saves. A reasonable houserule I would be to add, oh, 1/6 level to nonproficient saves (or all saves, and let good saves actually be good). That way high level adventurers show at least some improvement.

[Segev]

Oh, additional note: Fighters don't get "bonus ASI" or "additional ASI." There is no "default" number nor level-arrangement of ASI in 5e. There are patterns of commonality you can identify between certain classes, but technically, each class's ASI progression is defined solely by that class's advancement table. You cannot point anywhere in the rules and say, "all characters get an ASI at levels X, Y, and Z," and certainly cannot therefore say that the ASI given to one class at levels A and B are "bonus" ones.

The fighter does have more ASIs than any other class. (The rogue has more ASIs than most classes, too, IIRC.) But none of them are "bonus." So any argument that you can only trade "normal" ASIs for feats, but not "bonus" ones fails from the moment it tries to claim there's a difference. ASIs are ASIs. There are no "bonus" ones.

[R.Shackleford]

Be aware that the "frightened" condition may not be the limit of what a "fear" effect can do. I believe (though I could be misremembering) that the fear spell, for example, not only causes you to be Frightened, but also compels you to flee from the caster.

So it can be of concern to Mr. Fighter, and even causes Mr. Mage difficulty if he fails his save because he's too busy running to cast his ranged spells at the source of his fear.



If your DM is allowing feats, ASI can be traded for them. That's in the rules, and is, in fact, how feats work.

So you're really just saying, "If the DM isn't allowing feats, then the fighter doesn't get bonus feats." Which is practically a tautology.

Thats fine and dandy but the Fighter doesn't give you bonus feats.

The Fighter gives you ASI. The DM may allow you to trade those ASI for feats but then again the DM may also say those bonus ASI can't be traded for feats. Hell, a DM can just give everyone bonus feats if they want (seen that happen in AL).

A class feature relies solely on that class. Bonus ASI is not bonus feats.

Please show me where, in the fighter class description, it says they can take feats or bonus feats... Because you can pretend all you want but it isn't there.

Bonus feats don't exist in 5e. Hell, without DM specifically saying so (or playing AL, which is something I wouldnt recommend to anyone) feats don't even exist in the core game as they are an optional rule. You may as well say all optional rules are core rules at that point. Which isn't true at all.

If you like I'll copy and paste the ASI feature of the fighter again, maybe people can read it and show me where the fighter can take bonus feats through it? Cause I garuntee you one thing, the fighter class features don't give the fighter access to feats.

[JellyPooga]

Thats fine and dandy but the Fighter doesn't give you bonus feats.

The Fighter gives you ASI. The DM may allow you to trade those ASI for feats but then again the DM may also say those bonus ASI can't be traded for feats. Hell, a DM can just give everyone bonus feats if they want (seen that happen in AL).

A class feature relies solely on that class. Bonus ASI is not bonus feats.

Please show me where, in the fighter class description, it says they can take feats or bonus feats... Because you can pretend all you want but it isn't there.

Bonus feats don't exist in 5e. Hell, without DM specifically saying so (or playing AL, which is something I wouldnt recommend to anyone) feats don't even exist in the core game as they are an optional rule. You may as well say all optional rules are core rules at that point. Which isn't true at all.

If you like I'll copy and paste the ASI feature of the fighter again, maybe people can read it and show me where the fighter can take bonus feats through it? Cause I garuntee you one thing, the fighter class features don't give the fighter access to feats.

Can we get off the topic of Fighter ASI's vs. Feats please? Everyone knows what you're talking about R.Shackleford; "Feats are optional".

There, done. Three words that sum up your argument. Can we move along?

In a featless game, the Fighter has more opportunity to boost Wisdom because he has more ASI's than other Classes, so perhaps it's not so marked a difference between those with proficiency and those that don't. At the end of the day, though, most games I've played, seen or heard played use Feats. It's a reasonable assumption to include them in a discussion of this sort and Resilient (Wis) is a far better foil to fear effects than +2 Wisdom, even if it is technically only optional.

[Segev]

The Fighter gives you ASI. The DM may allow you to trade those ASI for feats but then again the DM may also say those bonus ASI can't be traded for feats.

The fighter doesn't get "bonus ASI." He gets ASI at certain levels. A DM who says "you can only trade in some of your ASI for feats" is not using the optional rules for feats; he's making a house rule. He can just as easily tell the sorcerer that he can't trade sorcerer points for spell slots, or cannibalize spell slots for sorcerer points.


i.e., your argument is, "The DM can house-rule that the fighter doesn't get what the rules say he does." Which is true, but trivially so and can be used to say that anything doesn't work, because the DM can house-rule anything away.

[EvilAnagram]

Heh...the character in question is half something, just not Halfling. He's a Half-Orc and more "cowardly" than someone half his size!
Which fits the Tolkien roots quite nicely, actually.


Halflings might be fearless, but they're not great melee fighters as a rule. Which is not to say they're not good in melee, as such; just that they don't make good front-line fighter-types.

Stout Halflings actually make excellent front line sword & board Fighters.


Some of them are hidden in subclasses, but barbarian, fighter, and ranger all have defenses against fear.

Frenzy barbarian is immune while raging.

Fighter gets indomitable, extra ASIs, and EKs can cast Protection.

Hunter Rangers can get Steel Will for advantage v fear.
This is an excellent post. If resisting fear is important to you, it's not terribly difficult. With a standard array, 14 STR, 15 CON, and 13 WIS (plus Half-orc stat boosts) makes an excellent Fighter. Take Resilient Wis at any point (which is actually exceptionally useful in many respects), and get Indomitable by 9. By that point, you can spend two ASIs on boosting Strength or getting combat feats, so you're well on your way to Murdertown, Faerun.

[Specter]

That would be an... extremely weird reading, with no support in the text itself. You can't really criticize a class because a DM might nerf it with a houserule. But yeah, Fighters are much sadder in a no-feats game. Although you can at least afford to dump one or two in secondary stats, and the SAD-ness of a Champion or Battle Master means that you can afford to start with a decent Wisdom. (16 Str/Dex, 16 Con, 14 Wis, say).

Yep. I've never played in a game without feats, and can't imagine one banning them. Even if they did, it would simply mean they could boost their WIS more than other non-WIS classes. Win-win.

[Ruslan]

Again. No. They do not gain more feats. They gain more ASI.The OP specifically mentioned feats are an option in his game. You are being difficult for no reason.

[R.Shackleford]

The OP specifically mentioned feats are an option in his game. You are being difficult for no reason.

It still isn't a Fighter feature.

Calling bonus feats a Fighter feature at best just furthers a misconception and at worse is a complete lie that furthers that misconception.

[EvilAnagram]

It still isn't a Fighter feature.

Calling bonus feats a Fighter feature at best just furthers a misconception and at worse is a complete lie that furthers that misconception.
The number of ASIs, which can be used for feats, is listed in the Fighter's features, so having access to more feats than any other class is absolutely a Fighter feature.

I see no way to justify a contrary claim.

[Ruslan]

The Fighter gets an ASI/Feat on level 6. No other class gets an ASI/feat on level 6. Assuming feats are in the game (and they are), "bonus feat on level 6" is clearly a Fighter class feature. There is no way this can be contorted otherwise.

[Specter]

Let it go, gents, the argument already unraveled into semantical nonsense. "Fighters get ASI that can be traded for feats, but it doesn't say feats so no feats!" Ugh.

[Segev]

It still isn't a Fighter feature.

Calling bonus feats a Fighter feature at best just furthers a misconception and at worse is a complete lie that furthers that misconception.


The number of ASIs, which can be used for feats, is listed in the Fighter's features, so having access to more feats than any other class is absolutely a Fighter feature.

I see no way to justify a contrary claim.

The second post pretty well sums it up.

Fighters get ASIs. They happen to get the most ASIs of any class in the game. ASIs, when feats are permitted, can be traded for feats. Therefore, "more feats than any other class" is, in fact, a feature of the Fighter class.

[djreynolds]

A fighter and thief, start off as... normal people. They come from all walks of life.

To me FEAR is just something beyond your prior experiences to grasp. Like witnessing your first gun shot in the ER, or an autopsy. Your not scared but... caught off guard. And maybe you run because its instinctual.

CHARM, you've never seen a girl like that back on the farm.

A fighter does get indomitable... and fluff it as he has now the discipline to shake it off.

But really take resilient wisdom, it will make indomitable even more powerful.

To me a fighter is like a college student moving to New York City from the country.