BattleMaster maneuvers for Swashbuckler

[Laserlight]

I've got Rogue 3 for Swashbuckler and Fighter 3 for Battlemaster on my DEX20 rogue, and it's time to pick maneuvers.
Riposte, obviously, for out-of-turn Sneak Attack. I expect I'll use almost all my Superiority dice there.
Precision looks like another obvious one.
But what's the third? Since it's competing with Riposte for superiority dice, it should probably be something which doesn't come up often, but is really useful when the opportunity crops up. What have you found works best?

Planned build is Fighter 3/Rogue 9 with the campaign probably ending at L12.

[R.Shackleford]

I've got Rogue 3 for Swashbuckler and Fighter 3 for Battlemaster on my DEX20 rogue, and it's time to pick maneuvers.
Riposte, obviously, for out-of-turn Sneak Attack. I expect I'll use almost all my Superiority dice there.
Precision looks like another obvious one.
But what's the third? Since it's competing with Riposte for superiority dice, it should probably be something which doesn't come up often, but is really useful when the opportunity crops up. What have you found works best?

Planned build is Fighter 3/Rogue 9 with the campaign probably ending at L12.

Don't touch Precision, you won't really need it. Just find a way to get advantage (which is completely easy in this game for attack rolls) or have an ally put bless on you (or both).

Menacing, always take menacing strike. If you are going to be a pirate, better be a scary pirate.

[Corran]

I agree with riposte and precision (yeah, precision probably wont be used a lot, but that is a good thing, means you will use your sd on other things, primarily on riposte, though riposte is a bit counterintuitive to playing a swashbuckler, still, it is too good to pass up. Where was I? Ah yes, precision. Grab it. For when you narowlly miss, you will be very happy to have it).

For the third maneuvre, I like feinting. It's an easy way to get advantage. Remember, disadvantage neutralises a rogue, so having an easy way to cancel disadvantage in your backpocket can prove really useful. Makes for a very good, albeit a bit situational (but again, that is good, your sd are limited), third option.

Other options that I personaly like is disarming and pushing (if you somehow get access to BB -feat or race perhaps?-, you can combine pushing with BB, assuming the enemy you are hitting is next to an ally of yours -learned this from RulesJD:smallsmile:).

[R.Shackleford]

I agree with riposte and precision (yeah, precision probably wont be used a lot, but that is a good thing, means you will use your sd on other things, primarily on riposte, though riposte is a bit counterintuitive to playing a swashbuckler, still, it is too good to pass up. Where was I? Ah yes, precision. Grab it. For when you narowlly miss, you will be very happy to have it).

For the third maneuvre, I like feinting. It's an easy way to get advantage. Remember, disadvantage neutralises a rogue, so having an easy way to cancel disadvantage in your backpocket can prove really useful. Makes for a very good, albeit a bit situational (but again, that is good, your sd are limited), third option.

Other options that I personaly like is disarming and pushing (if you somehow get access to BB -feat or race perhaps?-, you can combine pushing with BB, assuming the enemy you are hitting is next to an ally of yours -learned this from RulesJD:smallsmile:).

Feinting isn't' all that great. There are so many other ways to get advantage on attack rolls that expending a die doesn't seem worth it. It has the same problem with Precision, hitting won't be a problem. And the Swashbuckler rogue is always going to have sneak attack in some way.

Commander's Strike is you have another PC, like a rogue or paladin, that can boost their OA damage.

Rally, depending on your Cha, could be a very nice addition to your character.

So I would say Riposte, Menacing, and Commander or Rally (depending on party and your ability scores). If commander and rally doesn't work then I would go Trip Attack as it not only gives you advantage on a Bonus Action twf attack but halves that creature's movement and gives your allies advantage as well (if you go this route, daggers are your friend).

[Laserlight]

Feinting isn't' all that great.

Feinting seems pointless for a TWF. I give up a bonus attack to get advantage on a single attack; I'd do better just to make two attacks. Tripping would make more sense than Feinting--I get both attacks and one of them has a good chance of being Advantaged.

[Specter]

Precision is always good to have. There's no telling when a 5 will creep up on that roll, and in those situations it's there to save you from a no-damage turn.

Menacing and Trip are also good options for control.

[R.Shackleford]

Precision is always good to have. There's no telling when a 5 will creep up on that roll, and in those situations it's there to save you from a no-damage turn.

Menacing and Trip are also good options for control.

If OP is going twf then precision gets even worse than it already is. Hitting isn't a problem in 5e, there are tons of ways of gaining advantage and/or getting a bonus to your attack roll plus the target number isn't typically all that high. When twf the OP can just use their offhand attack if their last attack roll was that bad.

[Laserlight]

If OP is going twf then precision gets even worse than it already is. Hitting isn't a problem in 5e, there are tons of ways of gaining advantage and/or getting a bonus to your attack roll plus the target number isn't typically all that high. When twf the OP can just use their offhand attack if their last attack roll was that bad.

Right now I'm TWF, but there may be occasions when I want to use my bonus action for something other than another try--Hide, Dash, Second Wind, etc.

I don't expect to use Precision often, but I watched our Barbarian roll six misses in a row on a monster who had 2hp left, including the last swing as the monster ran off with our unconscous healer in its mouth. I don't want to be that guy. (I now have him sit at the other end of the table, so he doesn't contaminate my dice).

[R.Shackleford]

Right now I'm TWF, but there may be occasions when I want to use my bonus action for something other than another try--Hide, Dash, Second Wind, etc.

I don't expect to use Precision often, but I watched our Barbarian roll six misses in a row on a monster who had 2hp left, including the last swing as the monster ran off with our unconscous healer in its mouth. I don't want to be that guy. (I now have him sit at the other end of the table, so he doesn't contaminate my dice).

See, that is where someone should have used the Help Action (PC or familiar) or the Cleric could have using Guiding Bolt (all wis clerics should have this...). Or use your inspiration. Or use an athletics check to knock the creature prone...

Rolling low will still beat out precision most of the time.

[Ruslan]

I've got Rogue 3 for Swashbuckler and Fighter 3 for Battlemaster on my DEX20 rogue, and it's time to pick maneuvers.
Riposte, obviously, for out-of-turn Sneak Attack. I expect I'll use almost all my Superiority dice there.
Precision looks like another obvious one.
But what's the third? Since it's competing with Riposte for superiority dice, it should probably be something which doesn't come up often, but is really useful when the opportunity crops up. What have you found works best?

Planned build is Fighter 3/Rogue 9 with the campaign probably ending at L12.
You're not a proper swashbuckler if you don't have flourish. And what's the ultimate flourish in a duel? To disarm someone, pwning them without a drop of blood shed. I vote Disarming strike.

Edit: on second thought, "without a drop of blood" doesn't really apply, since Disarming Strike does deal damage, but anyway, it's cool and flavorful. Get it. You know you wanna.

[RulesJD]

I've got Rogue 3 for Swashbuckler and Fighter 3 for Battlemaster on my DEX20 rogue, and it's time to pick maneuvers.
Riposte, obviously, for out-of-turn Sneak Attack. I expect I'll use almost all my Superiority dice there.
Precision looks like another obvious one.
But what's the third? Since it's competing with Riposte for superiority dice, it should probably be something which doesn't come up often, but is really useful when the opportunity crops up. What have you found works best?

Planned build is Fighter 3/Rogue 9 with the campaign probably ending at L12.

1. Find a way to get the cantrip Booming Blade. It will give you a lot of additional damage output. I'd say take 1 level of Draconic Sorc (+1 AC, Shield spell, and cantrips)

2. Maneuvers (as someone graciously pointed out above) with Booming Blade:

Precision (use your off-hand for a shield for increased AC + Bonus Action -> Disengage to move around in groups of enemies)

Riposte (obviously)

Pushing (forces enemy to trigger Booming Blade even if they started engaged with an ally as the enemy will likely be out of reach to hit in melee)


Tada. That's the optimum damage list. Otherwise go with Disarming. Menacing is also solid but it is very campaign dependant as lots of enemies are Condition Immune to Frighten.

[Corran]

Feinting seems pointless for a TWF. I give up a bonus attack to get advantage on a single attack; I'd do better just to make two attacks. Tripping would make more sense than Feinting--I get both attacks and one of them has a good chance of being Advantaged.
Feinting is indeed wasted on a twf build, unless something imposes disadvantage on your attacks. Disadvantage shuts down a rogue's sneak attack. When this is the case, feinting will be strictly better than using your bonus action to take another atttack. Otherwise, I agree, twf is better than feinting (and obviously it does not cost you resources). So feinting is situational, and you use it to cancel disadvantage (granted, with fear effects it is much more tricky as feinting requires that you are within 5' of the target). Unless there is some other easy way for the op's character to get advantage in melee range that I am missing (am I???), feinting is situationaly very very good imo.

[Laserlight]

1. Find a way to get the cantrip Booming Blade. It will give you a lot of additional damage output. I'd say take 1 level of Draconic Sorc (+1 AC, Shield spell, and cantrips)

2. Maneuvers (as someone graciously pointed out above) with Booming Blade:

Precision (use your off-hand for a shield for increased AC + Bonus Action -> Disengage to move around in groups of enemies)


I've thought about BB but it doesn't really fit the character concept/backstory (half elf spurned by his high elf father because he never got the hang of magic). On the other hand, maybe the problem was more with the teacher than the student. Or maybe the dragon hadn't manifested. Will ponder.

Note that a Swashbuckler doesn't usually need to Disengage, as Rakish Audacity means foes I attack don't get an OA.

[Laserlight]

You're not a proper swashbuckler if you don't have flourish. And what's the ultimate flourish in a duel? To disarm someone, pwning them without a drop of blood shed. I vote Disarming strike.

Edit: on second thought, "without a drop of blood" doesn't really apply, since Disarming Strike does deal damage, but anyway, it's cool and flavorful. Get it. You know you wanna.

"Allo! My name is Inigo Montoya! You kill my father, prepare to...be disarmed!"

Mmmmm...perhaps not.

[Professor Gnoll]

"Allo! My name is Inigo Montoya! You kill my father, prepare to...be disarmed!"

Mmmmm...perhaps not.
It should be pointed out that the most famous fight of that movie ends with a disarm.

https://youtu.be/lC6dgtBU6Gs?t=161

[Ruslan]

"Allo! My name is Inigo Montoya! You kill my father, prepare to...be disarmed!"

Mmmmm...perhaps not.

He actually does disarm count Ruggen before killing him. Your argument is invalid. Also, what Professor Gnoll said.

[Laserlight]

It should be pointed out that the most famous fight of that movie ends with a disarm.

https://youtu.be/lC6dgtBU6Gs?t=161

I was expecting Monty Python's King Arthur vs the Black Knight, for a more literal dis-arming.

[Arial Black]

Precision Attack, Riposte and...Parry!

Take the Defensive Duelist feat. If the enemy misses you, use your reaction to Riposte.

If he hits you, but would miss you if you increased your AC by your proficiency bonus, use your reaction to use your Defensive Duelist feat.

If he hits you by a greater margin, use your reaction to Parry and reduce the damage.

As soon as you get Uncanny Dodge then Parry is no longer useful, so swap it out when you get the chance.

[DivisibleByZero]

Precision Attack, Riposte and...Parry!

Take the Defensive Duelist feat. If the enemy misses you, use your reaction to Riposte.

If he hits you, but would miss you if you increased your AC by your proficiency bonus, use your reaction to use your Defensive Duelist feat.

If he hits you by a greater margin, use your reaction to Parry and reduce the damage.

As soon as you get Uncanny Dodge then Parry is no longer useful, so swap it out when you get the chance.

That is utterly terrible advice.
First of all, he's only 2 levels away from uncanny dodge. Secondly, he is never going to take another fighter level to even have a chance to swap it out.

[Arial Black]

That is utterly terrible advice.
First of all, he's only 2 levels away from uncanny dodge. Secondly, he is never going to take another fighter level to even have a chance to swap it out.

Fair point. I got lost in how I would do it myself, which included getting a 4th level of fighter for the ASI. My bad.

[Degwerks]

I've thought about BB but it doesn't really fit the character concept/backstory (half elf spurned by his high elf father because he never got the hang of magic). On the other hand, maybe the problem was more with the teacher than the student. Or maybe the dragon hadn't manifested. Will ponder.

Note that a Swashbuckler doesn't usually need to Disengage, as Rakish Audacity means foes I attack don't get an OA.

You can also talk to your DM about using the half-elf variant from SCAG.

Or going with your backstory concept, you resent your high elf magically inclined father spurning your inability to learn his magic, and go the dark side route and pick up a lvl or two of Warlock. BB & GFB cantrips, maybe some invocations too.

[Laserlight]

You can also talk to your DM about using the half-elf variant from SCAG.

Or going with your backstory concept, you resent your high elf magically inclined father spurning your inability to learn his magic, and go the dark side route and pick up a lvl or two of Warlock. BB & GFB cantrips, maybe some invocations too.

Bit late to change helf variants, as I started this character at L3.

Feylock would be a plausible twist. I don't really want to delay my Rogue progression, but.... Our DM is already banging her head on the wall because I can talk my way through many encounters where the module expected combat. Add Mask of Many Faces invocation to that...Hm...

Obviously he should become a Bard: "To BB or not to BB, that is the question..."

But that's multiclassing or taking the magic initiate feat or some such. This is deciding on Battlemaster maneuvers.

[NiklasWB]

I'm kind of in the same situation. I'm making a lvl 5 battlemaster / lvl 3 swashbuckler for an upcoming side-campaign.

I have narrowed the first 3 maneuvers down to:

1. Riposte
2. Precision attack
3. Trip attack or Disarming attack

Menacing attack may be better, and I may take that later on, but for the Inigo Montoya type character, I think disarming attack or trip attack seems more appropriate. If the campaign goes on for a while I will probably pick up Defensive Duelist and Martial Adept. It may not be super optimized, but it fits the character concept.

[Mandragola]

Menacing attack is good. For one thing, that's what Inogo Montoya is doing. Frightened stuff can't move closer to you, which is kind of harsh on them if you're a swashbuckler who can hit people and then run away. They just stand there while you run in and slash at them. Maybe they ready an action, but even that has disadvantage to hit.

I'd go fighter 5 for two attacks by the way. That extra D6+5 damage, plus whatever your magic weapon does, plus the near-guarantee of hitting with one of your three swings to get sneak off, is always better than another dice of sneak attack. There's then definitely no need for precision.

So riposte, menacing, and disarming for lols.

[RulesJD]

I've thought about BB but it doesn't really fit the character concept/backstory (half elf spurned by his high elf father because he never got the hang of magic). On the other hand, maybe the problem was more with the teacher than the student. Or maybe the dragon hadn't manifested. Will ponder.

Note that a Swashbuckler doesn't usually need to Disengage, as Rakish Audacity means foes I attack don't get an OA.

You don't Disengage from 1 enemy.

You Disengage to maneuver into a point where you can always get Sneak Attack.

Example:

YXY

X = Swashbuckler
Y = Enemy

At that point, the Swashbuckler can't get Sneak Attack. Same if
Y
YX

etc.

So you use Disengage to get to the point where only 1 enemy is within 5ft of you.

[R.Shackleford]

You don't Disengage from 1 enemy.

You Disengage to maneuver into a point where you can always get Sneak Attack.

Example:

YXY

X = Swashbuckler
Y = Enemy

At that point, the Swashbuckler can't get Sneak Attack. Same if
Y
YX

etc.

So you use Disengage to get to the point where only 1 enemy is within 5ft of you.

Swashbuckler needs a target that no other creatures within 5'. In your example the swashbuckler can't gain sneak attack unless they have advantage on the roll or an ally walks up.

[RulesJD]

Swashbuckler needs a target that no other creatures within 5'. In your example the swashbuckler can't gain sneak attack unless they have advantage on the roll or an ally walks up.

Um, duh? The examples I provided were examples of why a Swashbuckler still needs to use their Cunning Action to Disengage........

So:

YXY

becomes:

XY Y

and

Y
YX

becomes:

Y
Y
X

[DivisibleByZero]

Your first example works. Your second doesn't. Your enemy in the second example still had another creature within 5' of it. No sneak attack without advantage or an ally.

[RulesJD]

Your first example works. Your second doesn't. Your enemy in the second example still had another creature within 5' of it. No sneak attack without advantage or an ally.

Someone needs to re-read their rulebook.

"In addition, you don't need advantage on your attack roll to use your Sneak Attack if no creature other than your target is within 5 feet of you."

So yes, my example works. And, again, it's why Swashbucklers still need to use Disengage to be able to set-up Sneak Attacks.

[DivisibleByZero]

Someone needs to re-read their rulebook.

Someone needs to leave the snark at the door and realize that some of us have jobs and don't carry our books everywhere we go.

[RulesJD]

Someone needs to leave the snark at the door and realize that some of us have jobs and don't carry our books everywhere we go.

*shrug* It's easier to just admit you were wrong. I gladly do it when I am, makes me more likely to remember the rule correctly in the future.

[Laserlight]

You don't Disengage from 1 enemy.

You Disengage to maneuver into a point where you can always get Sneak Attack.

Example:

YXY

X = Swashbuckler
Y = Enemy

At that point, the Swashbuckler can't get Sneak Attack. Same if
Y
YX

etc.

So you use Disengage to get to the point where only 1 enemy is within 5ft of you.

I attack Y1, rendering me immune to OA from him; I move around Y2; I sneak attack Y2. No need to Disengage, unless I'm mistaken? I do risk missing on my second attack and not getting SA damage, but that would also be the case if I were using my bonus action to Disengage instead of TWF.

I'll need Disengage if I'm in the midst of a mob of mooks, but in that case I probably get sneak dice based on adjacent ally.

[Mandragola]

Yeah with two mooks and two weapons you don't need disengage. Best time for disengage is if there are loads of mooks and you want to get the hell away, but also stab somebody. Of course, if as a rogue you're surrounded by mooks then things are probably going very wrong, and one of your actions probably ought to be spent on dash!

[RulesJD]

I attack Y1, rendering me immune to OA from him; I move around Y2; I sneak attack Y2. No need to Disengage, unless I'm mistaken? I do risk missing on my second attack and not getting SA damage, but that would also be the case if I were using my bonus action to Disengage instead of TWF.

I'll need Disengage if I'm in the midst of a mob of mooks, but in that case I probably get sneak dice based on adjacent ally.

If you're Dual Wielding then yes, you won't need to Disengage if you are adjacent to only 2 enemies as a Swashbuckler, fair enough.

But given that Booming Blade is the best damage option for a Rogue by far, that's why I stick with Disengage (can't make the Bonus Action attack unfortunately).

[Laserlight]

Of course, if as a rogue you're surrounded by mooks then things are probably going very wrong, and one of your actions probably ought to be spent on dash!

That thought had occurred to me :smallsmile:

[Laserlight]

If you're Dual Wielding then yes, you won't need to Disengage if you are adjacent to only 2 enemies as a Swashbuckler, fair enough.

But given that Booming Blade is the best damage option for a Rogue by far

Is there easily-linked math to support that? If not, I'll do it and post in a separate thread.

Side comment: does my choice of maneuvers change because I have by far the highest Initiative? I'm +9, EK archer is +5, the other two are +2 or lower.

[RulesJD]

Is there easily-linked math to support that? If not, I'll do it and post in a separate thread.

Side comment: does my choice of maneuvers change because I have by far the highest Initiative? I'm +9, EK archer is +5, the other two are +2 or lower.

It's a question of how often are you going to be missing with your first attack as a percentage of the (almost) guaranteed damage increase given by Booming Blade. The math is effectively impossible to narrow down specifically because it completely depends on the assumptions you make regarding enemy AC, party composition, ability to gain Advantage, magical weapon bonus to-hit, level of the characters, etc.

But basic math gives Booming Blade an extra 3d8 (average 13.5) to your main attack start at level 5 assuming you can target enemies that are going to be forced to move. Considering that you basically get a free Disengage this is exceptionally easy to trigger on a Swashbuckler, even more so once you pick up Battlemaster maneuvers (Pushing). That's a metric ton of damage to add to a Rogue (equivalent of 4d6 which is 8 levels worth of Rogue sneak attack).

Additionally, as the best part, Booming Blade doesn't care about whether you multiclass or not. The damage automatically upgrades at character level 5 and 11, which is huge.

So yes, you will miss occasionally and do 0 damage. Much, much more often (especially as you level up and character +to hit increases much faster than enemy AC) you will hit and do much more damage and using dual wielding.