[PF] the point guard (bard) of the party?

[djwood]

I currently have a level 1 bard, and I want to be the best buffer/debuffer I can be. My first time playing a bard, I read it abilites, but need tips. I am not that interested in doing damage, since we have a dual-wielding ranger, strong fighter and a sneak-attack rogue as well as a sorcerer. I think the party would be better off with me buffing than me attemping to hit people. I've talked to my DM and 3rdpp is allowed Current setup is:

Human bard. 14 str, 12 dex, 12 con, 10 wis, 18 int, 18 cha. (Roughly. My character sheet is at dm's)

Feats: extra cantrips or orisons, Additional traits (my Dm said this campaign is gonna be more roleplay than rollplay)

Drawback: power-hungry, shadow scarred

traits : noble born (for giant), Rich parents 900gp, lesser noble 100gp, Noble scion of lore : (+1 in all knowledges that i have one point in.)

Items: banner of the ancient Kings (as a pancho)

Spells:[orisons] Daze, Dancing lights, pants*3rdp, Disorienting quake *3rd, [1lvl] grease

My plan: My party gets competence bonus to attacks and damage from bardic performance, morale bonus to attacks and saves from bard spell Heroism when I hit lvl 4, Good Hope when I hit lvl 7.

Now for the debuffing. I have 3 options to cause enemies to fall prone or reduce their movement.By panting them or disorienting quake and last resort to spam daze and use grease!

So, when I hit higher levels, this is what I see happening. Round 1, I use inspire courage and try to get within 30 feet of multiple enemies. Round 2, dazzling display or blistering invective. Round 3, heroism. My allies now have +2-4 to hit, +2 damage, enemies have -2 to hit, saving throws, and may be on fire for 1d10 every round. And, if anyone tries to close to melee I have an attack of opportunity to trip them.

What I am asking for is if

this is an effective setup and plan, and if you have advice for things that can reduce enemy AC or cause shaken or similar effect that can last longer, and are available before level 9 or so. I looked at the bardic masterpieces, I don't see the use of them, and they seem lackluster for buffing/debuffing, or am I missing something? Thanks!

links to my 3rd PP

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/rite-publishing---3rd-party-spells/d/disorienting-quake
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/rite-publishing---3rd-party-spells/p/pants

[upho]

I'm very far from an expert on the bard, but here's my take:

I think the biggest problem with your current setup is the stat allocation; having no strong attack stat and medium BAB progression forces you to largely rely on your somewhat limited spells in combat while making it difficult for you to benefit from more effective melee debuff options such as demoralization. In short, I'd switch the current Str and Int values to Str 18 and Int 14 to give you a viable attack stat, especially if you're going for demoralization, adding Intimidating Prowess, Power Attack and later Cornugon Smash (instead of Dazzling Display). You may also consider going 18 Dex instead of Str, adding Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Deadly-Agility-Combat-), thus granting you a considerable bump to your AC and important initiative (you really want to go first to buff the party and/or debuff the enemy), although you won't be able demoralize enemies quite as easily and it will demand additional feats.

Also, keep in mind that many enemies are immune to mind-affecting effects (or just fear effects), such as all undead, vermin and several higher level monsters, which means you'll eventually want to have a way to bypass such immunities. AFAIK, the only option for this accessible to a bard is Black Seraph Annihilation (https://pathminder.github.io/feats/black-seraph-annihilation/). By dipping a level of Master of Many Styles monk, you may bypass the "one Black Seraph stance known" prerequisite of the needed Black Seraph Style (https://pathminder.github.io/feats/black-seraph-style/). Or you may get the feats Martial Training I and II (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Martial-Training-I-Combat-) for, say, Intimidating Force (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/black-seraph-maneuvers/intimidating-force), Fear Eating Technique (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/black-seraph-maneuvers/fear-eating-technique) and Black Seraph's Glare (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/black-seraph-maneuvers/black-seraph-s-glare-1), or even better, simply dip a level of Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord) with the Black Thorn Knights (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/martial-traditions/black-thorn-knights) (or setting-appropriate similar) martial tradition at 5th level or later for a few great melee benefits and more maneuvers of a higher level. If you go with Str as your melee stat, I'd probably combine this with a 2-handed weapon with reach to save up on feats and give you a larger threatened area for more debuffing AoOs.

To really benefit from demoralization, you definitely want Soulless Gaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/soulless-gaze-damnation) and one other damnation feat (probably Fiendskin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/fiendskin-damnation)) and a cruel (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/cruel) weapon. As written, the damnation feats unfortunately come with some potentially quite difficult prerequisites and serious drawbacks which I think you should discuss with your DM first, especially since their flavor is nice but also very limiting and may not fit with your character idea or the campaign. But once everything is in place, you'll have the tarrasque run away in panic, crying for mum! :smallbiggrin:

Finally, don't forget haste as a staple spell to cast as early as possible in combat, especially since at least 75% of your party will be able to benefit greatly from the effects.

[Geddy2112]

I currently have a level 1 bard..........................
Items: banner of the ancient Kings (as a pancho)

Wait, what? Your DM allowed you to have a wonderous item worth 18,000 gp, and not just any item, the banner of ancient kings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/banner-of-the-ancient-kings) which is insanely powerful in the hands of the bard. At level 1? If they really allowed this don't even worry about optimizing, you basically win every fight with this thing. But also, you are using it as a poncho? You know you have to put it on a longspear or pole to have it work right?


and I want to be the best buffer/debuffer I can be. My first time playing a bard, I read it abilites, but need tips. I am not that interested in doing damage, since we have a dual-wielding ranger, strong fighter and a sneak-attack rogue as well as a sorcerer. I think the party would be better off with me buffing than me attemping to hit people.
Certainly you have better things to do than swing a weapon, but unless your character concept disallows you to use weapons or violence(nothing wrong with this), carry something just in case. You can get a sling and a club for free if you are cheap. Spring for a compound shortbow and longsword/rapier, or settle for some other combo of melee and ranged weapon that suits your fancy.


I've talked to my DM and 3rdpp is allowed Current setup is:
Human bard. 14 str, 12 dex, 12 con, 10 wis, 18 int, 18 cha. (Roughly. My character sheet is at dm's)
Feats: extra cantrips or orisons, Additional traits (my Dm said this campaign is gonna be more roleplay than rollplay)
Drawback: power-hungry, shadow scarred
traits : noble born (for giant), Rich parents 900gp, lesser noble 100gp, Noble scion of lore : (+1 in all knowledges that i have one point in.)
Spells:[orisons] Daze, Dancing lights, pants*3rdp, Disorienting quake *3rd, [1lvl] grease
Those are really zesty stats. If you don't plan on fighting you don't need 14 strength, but you do want dex for saves, AC, skills, initiative. Swap those two, and even though wisdom is a dump stat for bards its probably more useful than strength for your build. I would consider swapping dex and int, unless you really wanna skillmonkey.
You can't take extra orisons as you can only cast cantrips, but not a bad feat. Additional traits are never bad, but you probably want some performance feats too like lingering performance, as it saves you performance economy from the get go.
Giant is not the most common language, but the trait gives you house words which is super cool and I assume giant is for flavor. You have enough ranks to max linguistics and know almost every language anyways though. The extra gold is never bad, as is the +1 knowledge as I assume your going to be the party textbook.


Now for the debuffing. I have 3 options to cause enemies to fall prone or reduce their movement.By panting them or disorienting quake and last resort to spam daze and use grease!
So, when I hit higher levels, this is what I see happening. Round 1, I use inspire courage and try to get within 30 feet of multiple enemies. Round 2, dazzling display or blistering invective. Round 3, heroism. My allies now have +2-4 to hit, +2 damage, enemies have -2 to hit, saving throws, and may be on fire for 1d10 every round. And, if anyone tries to close to melee I have an attack of opportunity to trip them.
That should be sufficient low level debuff. Keep in mind daze will lose effectiveness after a couple of levels so replace it with some other spamtrip. At level 7 you can perform as a move action, and at level 13 you can start performing as a swift action to really stack on the juice. I assume you are going to go combat reflexes/longspear/banner as well. The morale bonuses from spells and the banner or similar things won't stack, just whatever is best. Heroism is 10 min/level so you can usually cast it at the beginning of a dungeon or anytime you are expecting combat and it lasts.


What I am asking for is if this is an effective setup and plan, and if you have advice for things that can reduce enemy AC or cause shaken or similar effect that can last longer, and are available before level 9 or so. I looked at the bardic masterpieces, I don't see the use of them, and they seem lackluster for buffing/debuffing, or am I missing something? Thanks!
Overall, it is a very solid buff/debuff/support build.
Dirge of doom kicks in at level 8 for no save shaken. You should also consider the feat discordant voice at level 11, for extra damage. Blistering invective is probably your best bang for the buck for early on intimidate. Slow is your god debuff spell at 3rd level, and confusion is pretty nasty to boot, both have far worse effects than shaken. Arcane concordance is an incredible spell; your sorcerer friend will love you, and you benefit from its effects as well.

Requiem of the fallen priest king requires a bit of setup, but it is a VERY good buff performance that can setup a really powerful nova alpha strike wombo combo from the party.



Also, keep in mind that many enemies are immune to mind-affecting effects (or just fear effects), such as all undead, vermin and several higher level monsters, which means you'll eventually want to have a way to bypass such immunities. AFAIK, the only option for this accessible to a bard is Black Seraph Annihilation (https://pathminder.github.io/feats/black-seraph-annihilation/). By dipping a level of Master of Many Styles monk, you may bypass the "one Black Seraph stance known" prerequisite of the needed Black Seraph Style (https://pathminder.github.io/feats/black-seraph-style/). Or you may get the feats Martial Training I and II (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Martial-Training-I-Combat-) for, say, Intimidating Force (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/black-seraph-maneuvers/intimidating-force), Fear Eating Technique (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/black-seraph-maneuvers/fear-eating-technique) and Black Seraph's Glare (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/black-seraph-maneuvers/black-seraph-s-glare-1), or even better, simply dip a level of Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord) with the Black Thorn Knights (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/martial-traditions/black-thorn-knights) (or setting-appropriate similar) martial tradition at 5th level or later for a few great melee benefits and more maneuvers of a higher level. If you go with Str as your melee stat, I'd probably combine this with a 2-handed weapon with reach to save up on feats and give you a larger threatened area for more debuffing AoOs.
Another option is to take three levels in antipaladin for the aura of cowardice, which makes things fear you even if they are otherwise immune. This could have obvious drawbacks on your campaign.
If you want a less evil option, the dirge bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dirge-bard) archetype lets you hit undead with mind affecting spells. Undead are usually the big problem, but if you know the campaign is gonna favor constructs/vermin then it would be fairly useless to take this archetype.


To really benefit from demoralization, you definitely want Soulless Gaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/soulless-gaze-damnation) and one other damnation feat. As written, the damnation feats unfortunately come with some potentially quite difficult prerequisites and serious drawbacks which I think you should discuss with your DM first, especially since their flavor is nice but also very limiting and may not fit with your character idea or the campaign. :
These become much more viable if you are gonna dip into antipaladin anyways.


Finally, don't forget haste as a staple spell to cast as early as possible in combat, especially since at least 75% of your party will be able to benefit greatly from the effects. Second haste, as adding action economy is how you win combat.

[djwood]

Wait, what? Your DM allowed you to have a wonderous item worth 18,000 gp, and not just any item, the banner of ancient kings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/banner-of-the-ancient-kings) which is insanely powerful in the hands of the bard. At level 1? If they really allowed this don't even worry about optimizing, you basically win every fight with this thing. But also, you are using it as a poncho? You know you have to put it on a long spear or pole to have it work right?


Yea, I talked To my DM about it and he accepted me getting a banner of the ancient kings as a poncho, but I don't see the problem. It only raises my Inspire courage as if I was 5 lvls higher. Maybe im missing something , but I don't see that as something super strong

Certainly you have better things to do than swing a weapon, but unless your character concept disallows you to use weapons or violence(nothing wrong with this), carry something just in case. You can get a sling and a club for free if you are cheap. Spring for a compound shortbow and longsword/rapier, or settle for some other combo of melee and ranged weapon that suits your fancy.


You are right I should get a weapon. Any good suggestions?


Those are really zesty stats. If you don't plan on fighting you don't need 14 strength, but you do want dex for saves, AC, skills, initiative. Swap those two, and even though wisdom is a dump stat for bards its probably more useful than strength for your build. I would consider swapping dex and int, unless you really wanna skillmonkey.
You can't take extra orisons as you can only cast cantrips, but not a bad feat. Additional traits are never bad, but you probably want some performance feats too like lingering performance, as it saves you performance economy from the get go.
Giant is not the most common language, but the trait gives you house words which is super cool and I assume giant is for flavor. You have enough ranks to max linguistics and know almost every language anyways though. The extra gold is never bad, as is the +1 knowledge as I assume your going to be the party textbook.


That should be sufficient low level debuff. Keep in mind daze will lose effectiveness after a couple of levels so replace it with some other spamtrip. At level 7 you can perform as a move action, and at level 13 you can start performing as a swift action to really stack on the juice. I assume you are going to go combat reflexes/longspear/banner as well. The morale bonuses from spells and the banner or similar things won't stack, just whatever is best. Heroism is 10 min/level so you can usually cast it at the beginning of a dungeon or anytime you are expecting combat and it lasts.


Overall, it is a very solid buff/debuff/support build.
Dirge of doom kicks in at level 8 for no save shaken. You should also consider the feat discordant voice at level 11, for extra damage. Blistering invective is probably your best bang for the buck for early on intimidate. Slow is your god debuff spell at 3rd level, and confusion is pretty nasty to boot, both have far worse effects than shaken. Arcane concordance is an incredible spell; your sorcerer friend will love you, and you benefit from its effects as well.

Requiem of the fallen priest king requires a bit of setup, but it is a VERY good buff performance that can setup a really powerful nova alpha strike wombo combo from the party.


Another option is to take three levels in antipaladin for the aura of cowardice, which makes things fear you even if they are otherwise immune. This could have obvious drawbacks on your campaign.
If you want a less evil option, the dirge bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dirge-bard) archetype lets you hit undead with mind affecting spells. Undead are usually the big problem, but if you know the campaign is gonna favor constructs/vermin then it would be fairly useless to take this archetype.


These become much more viable if you are gonna dip into antipaladin anyways.

Second haste, as adding action economy is how you win combat.


should I dip in antipaladin right away? ( its a fast pace game, so levels will come super fast!)



thank you both truly appreciated . If possible, I would like to keep in touch with both of you, if ever I have other questions.

[Geddy2112]

So if your DM is allowing you to wear it and not have to carry it, it is even stronger as your hands are free.
It certainly does give a bard 5levels higher for the purpose of inspire courage. It also gives you +4 to initiative checks, and a +2 resistance bonus to saves against mind affecting effects for you and everyone within 30ft. Also, so long as you are holding it(in this case, wearing it) you get to re roll a failed save against a mind affecting effect every round. Plus, it is worth 18,000; going by wealth by level, only a 7th level PC should even be able to afford the thing retail. As a bard, your starting wealth should be an average of 105 gold...

If your DM lets you have this...their loss.

For a weapon, the club/sling route is literally free. If you have a strength modifier at all spring for a compound shortbow. If you are feeling fancy, buy a rapier or longsword for melee, and if you dip antipaladin carry whatever martial weapon tickles your fancy. Whips are cheap and very useful, also worth getting. If you are going for a fear build, dip antipaladin ASAP to get the aura of cowardice. That said, only undead and vermin will be immune to fear at lower levels, so you could buff your bard levels a bit. The 2nd level of antipaladin is a huge deal, as you get to add yours CHA mod to all saves.

If you have any other questions feel free to PM me and ask.

[Starbuck_II]

I was going to suggest Giesha/Ringleader Bard.
That way, you don't use an action in battle to inspire. They can activate it on their turn instead as a Standard for 8 rds or 20 minutes depending on how you read it.

Why 8 rd? Because Ringleader doubles duration of an all allies performance when using Inspired Plan. Giesha's cost 4 for each target. 4 x2 =8. Giesha says "The ceremony’s effects last 10 minutes". So doubled 10 is 20.

If for some reason DM doesn't let the abilities stack, 4 points would give you 8 rounds.
Granted, you could give each friend 3 points (combat doesn't usually last longer than 6 rounds).

Granted, Ringleader only really saves you a standard action at beginning of each combat. But best part you don't need close enough now to be heard as you played it to them earlier.