DM NPC's guards and town defences are oddly overwhelming

[Wolfkingleo]

Greetings,

Something have been bothering my group (actually myself, I didn't bring this to our table...yet) in our last sessions. Our Dm have been putting a lot of "elite guards" even on humble towns in order to avoid misbehaving from our group, we are a party of lvl 5 adventurers composed by a Swordsage (me), a Rogue (my brother), a Druid, a Cleric and a Sorcerer.

It started when my brother, who plays a rogue, manage to stole a magical crossbow (+1, 1d4 frost damage) from one of the shops (he passed on 2 sneak tests and 1 open lock to do so), we had an DMPC's with us wich was a cleric of Hextor and he just called the guards since he saw the theft and my brother manage to avoid being incarcerated but the guards took us (despite not being around during the whole robbery) for "interrogatory" since we were well known around this city. Eventually we managed to negotiate with a Paladin in the city, so we would find him and make him return the weapon to the shopkeeper and pay a fine. (There is also another "Incident", which makes it even harder, but I would digress here)

Until there, anything was ok, but eversince all the towns (acording to the DM description) has guards with magical weapons and "buffed appearances" who looks to our characters with some contempt and even when we shop, there is someone watching us closely. It started to bother me because it looked like that we are being somewhat "RP nerfed".

I am under wrong assumptions or perhaps my DM is being close-minded?

Sorry about any misspellings, I'm not a native english speaker

Cheers

[Grollub]

I disagree with how your DM is handling the problem.. he shouldn't/ doesn't need to buff all the guards. Because, really if you wanted to, you could just ambush single guards to get their stuff :smallcool:

But having said that, I've known quite a few PC's who think that towns are like a crime wave waiting to happen and they can pillage the "lowbie" townfolk with little to no backlash. If the players want to be "murderhobo thieves" the DM should treat them as such.

Maybe let the first theft or two go, but after that.. someone will figure out who's doing it, and SHOULD definately do something about it..

It could be a random thief, who decides to steal from them.. Someone looking to return the stolen goods.. etc..

Lots of ways to deal with PC's who prey on the lower levels... and of course in the war of escalation , the DM always wins. :smallbiggrin:

[Wolfkingleo]

I disagree with how your DM is handling the problem.. he shouldn't/ doesn't need to buff all the guards. Because, really if you wanted to, you could just ambush single guards to get their stuff :smallcool:

But having said that, I've known quite a few PC's who think that towns are like a crime wave waiting to happen and they can pillage the "lowbie" townfolk with little to no backlash. If the players want to be "murderhobo thieves" the DM should treat them as such.

Maybe let the first theft or two go, but after that.. someone will figure out who's doing it, and SHOULD definately do something about it..

It could be a random thief, who decides to steal from them.. Someone looking to return the stolen goods.. etc..

Lots of ways to deal with PC's who prey on the lower levels... and of course in the war of escalation , the DM always wins. :smallbiggrin:

I agree with some of your points, but the truth is our party seldom causes any ruckus around the towns. The rogue only pickpocket a few "fancy looking" people for a few coins in the street and, until this crossbow event in the 11th session of our group, never made any shoplifting so far. My biggest complain is that the DM PC who was "helping the party" snitched the rogue out (since the shop guards failed in their spot checks), and that felt a bit of nitpicking, at least for me... I don't know if the DM did not prepare or even antecipate this kind of behaviour.

Cheers

[Deophaun]

First, introduce your DM to the idea of abstraction. If he doesn't want PCs robbing magic-marts, don't have any magic-marts. The act of shopping is nothing more than commissioning brokers, tracking down rumors, bribing officials, and hiring lesser adventuring groups to get you the gear you want/need while you're doing the important stuff of chasing wenches and insulting the nobleborn.

Second, put those stealth skills to use and slip a blade in between the DMPC's ribs while he's asleep. I believe that is permissible under every alignment. Did you ever wonder why there is no designated god of DMPC slaying in D&D? It's because they're all gods of DMPC slaying. It's the one thing Heironious, Hextor, Wee Jas, Pelor, Lolth, Fenagaasdfwerasdfasdfgsagd.... Wandering Guy, Elhona, Orcus, Asmodeus, etc, etc, all agree on: DMPCs must die. It doesn't even count as a violation of the Vow of Nonviolence.

[Wolfkingleo]

First, introduce your DM to the idea of abstraction. If he doesn't want PCs robbing magic-marts, don't have any magic-marts. The act of shopping is nothing more than commissioning brokers, tracking down rumors, bribing officials, and hiring lesser adventuring groups to get you the gear you want/need while you're doing the important stuff of chasing wenches and insulting the nobleborn.

Second, put those stealth skills to use and slip a blade in between the DMPC's ribs while he's asleep. I believe that is permissible under every alignment. Did you ever wonder why there is no designated god of DMPC slaying in D&D? It's because they're all gods of DMPC slaying. It's the one thing Heironious, Hextor, Wee Jas, Pelor, Lolth, Fenagaasdfwerasdfasdfgsagd.... Wandering Guy, Elhona, Orcus, Asmodeus, etc, etc, all agree on: DMPCs must die. It doesn't even count as a violation of the Vow of Nonviolence.

The abstraction idea would be the best, one thing that I hated in other group that I participated is the fact that the previous DM always tried to make us fugde our rolls (very annoying tests or just nearly impossible DCs) when something "escaped his control", perhaps this is my fear about this group.

I already killed that DMPC on the fact that he tried to surrender us to the BBEG in trade of more power (lorewise). Put my sword right on his throat. I just felt that it was cheap that this "b@stard" was the one that started all the fuss on the magic weapon, and not the "spotting guards".

Cheers

[FearlessGnome]

It's probably for the best that he died. DMPCs are not terribly popular around here. In theory they can be a helpful or necessary addition to the party, but they do apparently (I've never seen one in play myself) often lead to problems.

But, to defend your DM a little bit, Hextor is Lawful Evil, and a cleric of his probably isn't very keen on thieves and burglars. It makes perfect sense that he would snitch on the rogue, and you shouldn't expect a Lawful cleric to just accept that their companions steal things.

[Calthropstu]

It's probably for the best that he died. DMPCs are not terribly popular around here. In theory they can be a helpful or necessary addition to the party, but they do apparently (I've never seen one in play myself) often lead to problems.

But, to defend your DM a little bit, Hextor is Lawful Evil, and a cleric of his probably isn't very keen on thieves and burglars. It makes perfect sense that he would snitch on the rogue, and you shouldn't expect a Lawful cleric to just accept that their companions steal things.

I am running the adventure path Jade Regent and, since we started with too few people, I added a dmpc to fill out the group. I am making her completely passive in most decision making processes, but when we had defeated an opponent who had pretty much mauled us, I had her stand in the way of slitting the guy's throat (neutral good oracle would do that I am thinking.)

Now that the table is full, I have no problem with her dying or fading into the background. I did kind of make insanely good at healing which will make challenging the pcs much more difficult.

[Fizban]

You say that your party usually doesn't cause problems in town, but then immediately complain about the guards mere existence making you "RP nerfed."

Stealing because "lol I'm a rogue so the DM has to let me steal things" is not roleplaying. The DM has responded to players ignoring the social contract of civilization by making civilazation able to fight back. He could also have responded by ruling that there's literally nothing worth stealing: there are a number of ways to make magic items un-stealable without a drop of fiat, but then people would complain. He could also have responded by actually guarding things that are worth stealing, so the next time somone tried they would die horribly, because once again it's easily within the power of standard NPCs without making anything up.

But that would require significantly more effort, and result in dead PCs. You should be grateful they're giving you a subtle hint with a simple angle rather than actually rebuilding their world to completely shut you down.

It is also quite clear that your group has a problem. The DM is running a so-called DMPC, who is then actively working against the party. If this is actually a "DMPC," then the DM is a horrible party member. It also means you killed a party member rather than discussing the problem with the player and resolving the real issue. If the "DMPC" was actually just an NPC that was working with the party, well gee some guy stole an item worth several thousand gp and guess what, he's not afraid of some thief who's just asking for trouble. You then later executed said character, and admit that you were more motivated by the business with the stolen item and the guards than anything else.

So you killed a man because he turned on a thief whom you supported, when said thief had apparently no justification whatsoever for his actions. Guess what bro,, you are Evil*. But if you already knew that because you're playing in an Evil party, well have fun with that. Your DM clearly isn't all that experienced and newbies always wanna be evil because it's so cool, then their games fall apart and they wonder why.

*No, it doesn't matter than he was evil. You admit to killing him for selfish reasons while supporting selfish acts that harm others. That's evil.

[Aetis]

Why would a merchant sell magic crossbows if any old adventurer could just steal them from him without repercussions?

[Gallowglass]

Why would a merchant sell magic crossbows if any old adventurer could just steal them from him without repercussions?

Indeed. If a merchant is going to have such high value merchandise in the showroom, the merchant should have adequate security. To prevent those Player Character rogues that never quite got "thief" scratched off their character sheets from 2nd edition. If he has crossbow(s)+2,frost on display, there should be a guard with a crossbow+3,bane(rogues) ready at hand to keep you from getting ideas.

On a serious note, OP, try to remember that the DM's job is to provide you, the players, with CHALLENGES. If you decide that, instead of heading down to ye olde dungeon to kill some displacer beasts and take their arbitrary and illogical loot, you want to become a smash-and-grab burglar in town, then its the DM's job to amp up the challenges to keep things interesting for your chosen path.

Now, it sounds like, in this case, the DM is turning the city guards into "walls" to try and steer you back to the story and away from your free-formed crime wave. Well you can either fight him or work with him. Working with him is going to be more fun on the long run.

[Wolfkingleo]

You say that your party usually doesn't cause problems in town, but then immediately complain about the guards mere existence making you "RP nerfed."

Actually, my issue is because suddenly every hamlet became a fortress full of guards, something that it was not happening before the situation, also some of the guards, when asked for information, tries to provoke the party by being unecessary rude.


Stealing because "lol I'm a rogue so the DM has to let me steal things" is not roleplaying. The DM has responded to players ignoring the social contract of civilization by making civilazation able to fight back. He could also have responded by ruling that there's literally nothing worth stealing: there are a number of ways to make magic items un-stealable without a drop of fiat, but then people would complain. He could also have responded by actually guarding things that are worth stealing, so the next time somone tried they would die horribly, because once again it's easily within the power of standard NPCs without making anything up.

This I agree with you regarding the social contract, and I abide the city laws, I am one that hates players who goes the "stupid allignment (Either Lawfull/Chaotic/Apathic) ways", however the entire group wasn't even around the market area where that happened, and suddenly guards "escorted us" to the post in order to clarify the situation...

But that would require significantly more effort, and result in dead PCs. You should be grateful they're giving you a subtle hint with a simple angle rather than actually rebuilding their world to completely shut you down.


It is also quite clear that your group has a problem. The DM is running a so-called DMPC, who is then actively working against the party. If this is actually a "DMPC," then the DM is a horrible party member. It also means you killed a party member rather than discussing the problem with the player and resolving the real issue. If the "DMPC" was actually just an NPC that was working with the party, well gee some guy stole an item worth several thousand gp and guess what, he's not afraid of some thief who's just asking for trouble. You then later executed said character, and admit that you were more motivated by the business with the stolen item and the guards than anything else.

So you killed a man because he turned on a thief whom you supported, when said thief had apparently no justification whatsoever for his actions. Guess what bro,, you are Evil*. But if you already knew that because you're playing in an Evil party, well have fun with that. Your DM clearly isn't all that experienced and newbies always wanna be evil because it's so cool, then their games fall apart and they wonder why.

*No, it doesn't matter than he was evil. You admit to killing him for selfish reasons while supporting selfish acts that harm others. That's evil.

I actually killed him because, as I stated before, he sold us out to the BBEG in order to receive more power. When we catched him, we killed him out of revenge of this betrayal. (The only one who voted against it in was the druid, who plays a pacifist character)

Thank you for the imput so far people,

Cheers

[Wolfkingleo]

On a serious note, OP, try to remember that the DM's job is to provide you, the players, with CHALLENGES. If you decide that, instead of heading down to ye olde dungeon to kill some displacer beasts and take their arbitrary and illogical loot, you want to become a smash-and-grab burglar in town, then its the DM's job to amp up the challenges to keep things interesting for your chosen path.

Now, it sounds like, in this case, the DM is turning the city guards into "walls" to try and steer you back to the story and away from your free-formed crime wave. Well you can either fight him or work with him. Working with him is going to be more fun on the long run.

I completely agree with you in the regard of challenges (the said rogue passed on 3 skill checks in order to suceed in the stealing, and he got pretty lucky on the dice), but again I felt that we were being "far too punished" even when the object have been restored to the owner by, IMHO, a "forced way".

I intend to work with him, but I prefer that we have to deal with a more responsive world rather than just a, as you said, "walled one". That said, thank you for the input ;)

Cheers

[FearlessGnome]

I completely agree with you in the regard of challenges (the said rogue passed on 3 skill checks in order to suceed in the stealing, and he got pretty lucky on the dice), but again I felt that we were being "far too punished" even when the object have been restored to the owner by, IMHO, a "forced way".

I intend to work with him, but I prefer that we have to deal with a more responsive world rather than just a, as you said, "walled one". That said, thank you for the input ;)

Cheers

I mean, you have to be pretty rich by DnD standards to afford a magical weapon, and I'm fairly sure in the real world if you got caught stealing something worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, you wouldn't just have to pay a fine and put up with police giving you suspicious looks. That rogue would be in prison for years, and you got away lightly.

[Boci]

I mean, you have to be pretty rich by DnD standards to afford a magical weapon, and I'm fairly sure in the real world if you got caught stealing something worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, you wouldn't just have to pay a fine and put up with police giving you suspicious looks. That rogue would be in prison for years, and you got away lightly.

Probably, but at the same time I don't think the rogue was caught by the authorities but by his party members. Police in the real world are not beyond making deals for thieves they believe they cannot catch themselves, so you can justify it either way.

This seem a little heavy handed from the DM, but its understandable if he wanted to quickly nip such crime sprees in the bud so they didn't drag out future games or threaten to upset the party's power level.

[Wolfkingleo]

Probably, but at the same time I don't think the rogue was caught by the authorities but by his party members. Police in the real world are not beyond making deals for thieves they believe they cannot catch themselves, so you can justify it either way.

This seem a little heavy handed from the DM, but its understandable if he wanted to quickly nip such crime sprees in the bud so they didn't drag out future games or threaten to upset the party's power level.

Exactly, that is the reason that I'm feeling torn if I'm overthinking this situation, and by that I meant "bu**hurt", or if indeed the DM was a bit too strict and harsh.

@FearlessGnome

Fair enought so, just for the sake of clarification and to avoid digressing in this topic:

The entire putted in jail for this while the DMNPC (who was "guiding" us at the time) walked away. Eventually, after being tortured for a day by the authorities, one of their agents were careless and let a fire spread all over the guardhouse, allowing us to flee the scene.

Obviously we were blamed by the fire and we had to work for the city garrison (IGT took months) in order to repay the damage, while the Rogue were also put in a arena pit fending for himself (by the decree of the city authorities) until he managed to earn enough money from the tickets to pay the fine. In the end, we managed to fufill our part (although I still think that the rogue should have been punished alone in this matter), but since we were "just making a restitution" we were award 1/3 of the XP (round up) regarding the encounters that we faced, for the troubles.

Cheers

[Boci]

Eek, that's a little more heavy handed. How experienced is the DM? If they are new, its entirely understandable and likely comes from a good place, they just don't know how to subtly have consequences for breaking the law. Talk to them, agree to work with them, the party won't break the law, and in return he can be a little less railroady.

If they are more experienced, then its tougher. Same approach as above, but its more likely the DM is set in their ways. Still, you offer the same basic deal, police yourselves so suspiciously competent NPCs don't have to.

[Wolfkingleo]

Eek, that's a little more heavy handed. How experienced is the DM? If they are new, its entirely understandable and likely comes from a good place, they just don't know how to subtly have consequences for breaking the law. Talk to them, agree to work with them, the party won't break the law, and in return he can be a little less railroady.

If they are more experienced, then its tougher. Same approach as above, but its more likely the DM is set in their ways. Still, you offer the same basic deal, police yourselves so suspiciously competent NPCs don't have to.

We are a casual group that is already playing for some good amount of years, but I believe that the DM is used to have a party of good-doers so the rogue may caught him off-guard in this matter.

Anyways, in metagaming we compromised ourselves to keep an eye in the Rogue, but by that I meant not compactuate with his actions neither stop him unless it comes for "personal harm". Still, this "godlike guards" make me feel uncomfortable.

Cheers

[Boci]

Anyways, in metagaming we compromised ourselves to keep an eye in the Rogue, but by that I meant not compactuate with his actions neither stop him unless it comes for "personal harm". Still, this "godlike guards" make me feel uncomfortable.

Cheers

I think you need to step up this. Prevent him from breaking the law, or better yet, tell him to stop playing his character as a lawbreaker. He can loot dungeons and sneak attack monsters, but in the friendly settlements he becomes a model citizen.

Th DM seems unwilling to put the effort in to make laws enforceable without DM fiat, which is fine, not all DMs feel like fleshing out every aspect of their setting, especially when its not going to figure into the plot. God-like guards are bad, but an out of control party is probably worse, even for you in the long run.

So same advice: offer to the DM that you will start behaving, and in return request that he not have you auto captured and railroaded through the justice system.

[Tvtyrant]

Honestly you are getting off easy. If my players were running around burning dowb guard houses and stealing magic items they would quickly find bounties being posted and mid level adventurers hunting them.

[Boci]

Honestly you are getting off easy. If my players were running around burning dowb guard houses and stealing magic items they would quickly find bounties being posted and mid level adventurers hunting them.

"one of their agents were careless and let a fire spread all over the guardhouse"

Seems like the NPCs were the ones to start the fire, the PCs just got blamed for it.

[Âmesang]

I'm reminded of the early Ultima games, especially Warriors of Destiny, where I swear the guards were the toughest opponents in the game (second only to the Shadow Lords, and maybe equal to those duplicating stone gargoyles).

Granted in Akalabeth/"Ultima 0", you had to personally slay a balrog in order to be knighted, so having super-tough guards isn't totally unprecedented…

[Tvtyrant]

"one of their agents were careless and let a fire spread all over the guardhouse"

Seems like the NPCs were the ones to start the fire, the PCs just got blamed for it.

From the people who are blaming them's perspective it makes no difference, I would think. The party was involved in high level theft, the destruction and then flight from a prison. Unless the world they live in has literally never seen monsters or high level individuals, there is some safeguards in place for that kind of thing.

I think HunterxHunter may have the best escalation for that possible. First they use guards, then they use special agents of their own organization, and finally they hire assassins at the pinnacle of their world's power to deal with threats.

[Boci]

From the people who are blaming them's perspective it makes no difference, I would think.

Probably not, but it makes a heck of a lot of difference in terms of houw reasonable the DM is. A DM is entirely in his rights to have NPC bounty hunters after the party for them burning down part of the city. A DM however, who had NPC bounty hunters after the PCs because their other NPCs burned part of the city down and they decided that the NPCs blamed the PCs....far more iffy.

[Gallowglass]

Probably not, but it makes a heck of a lot of difference in terms of houw reasonable the DM is. A DM is entirely in his rights to have NPC bounty hunters after the party for them burning down part of the city. A DM however, who had NPC bounty hunters after the PCs because their other NPCs burned part of the city down and they decided that the NPCs blamed the PCs....far more iffy.

I disagree with that. The mistaken identity ploy and the setting up the heroes to take the fall ploy are staples of story-telling.

[Boci]

I disagree with that. The mistaken identity ploy and the setting up the heroes to take the fall ploy are staples of story-telling.

I didn't say don't do it ever, just that it was far more iffy than if the PCs were actually responsible.

That said, just because something is a staple of story-telling, doesn't mean it makes for a good game. Killing a main character off with no chance of survival can often aid a story, but typically makes for a poor plotpoint.

[Rothgar Ironmit]

Maybe the DM isnt being to harsh on the punishment maybe he is just trying to get the Rouge to think outside the box and not just try the basic ways of stealing stuff but to get creative.

Also the rouge doesnt always have to be the guy with daggers and a cloak sneaking around and stealing from shops , you could be doing like what im doing with my current character.

His name is Vex Silverfingers a half-ling Rouge but he tells everyone he meets that his name is Vexsus Brindleboar and he isnt dressed like a rouge he dresses like a farmer and tell people he has left the farm to earn a little coin and that he is handy with a sword (giving people the idea he is a fighter) the town were in sounds alot like the one your in so I took a diffrent approach to stealing things that I needed in the town we are in there is a slave market so I went and bought a Goblin slave and stole the bill of sale to another slave a half-orc which I then now use the half-orc as a look out and my Goblin as the thief while I provide distraction for the guards looking and acting like a dumb farmer whos lost in town and its been working so far even killed a random adventurer PC who attacked me over a misunderstanding so my Goblin killed him and then we looted his body I equipped the Half orc and goblin with his gear mis matched so no one would recognize the equipment and we buried the body behind a alleyway oh also I forgot to mention I rollplayed good enough to where my goblin and half-orc are now devoted to me because I told them id set them free after my mission is completed which they agreed.

Also as a friendly rouge tip try buying off some guards or getting leverage on them to make them work for you then you could litterally walk into a shop and grab stuff and the guards will look the other way or claim that you were off doing something else

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah Rouge's have to be outside of their boxes to be effective. It is important for them to apply themselves properly, as they can be a little thick.

[MisterKaws]

I just took a look at the DMG, and +2 weapons only start to be readily available at Small Cities, which are filled to the brim with level five characters. Heck, the top commoners at those places have an average level of 16, and maximum of 22.

[VisitingDaGulag]

Should small cities be unprepared for 5th level NPCs that might want to steal?

[Darth Ultron]

So the DM is saying ''the guards look big and scary'' And your being intimidated by it? Sounds like he is being a good DM.

So the guards are ''giving the Pc's a hard time'', well that is kinda expected as the ''guards tend to give the potential troublemakers a hard time.'' Have you never been to a Radio Shack where your treated like a criminal just by walking in the door?

But to say ''RP nerfed'' is a bit odd. Are you feeling like...because the game world exists you can't role play?

Or are you saying you feel like your character can't do absolutely anything with no fear of consensuses or game world actions? Like the game should be your character always success and nothing bad ever happens? Like the whole game world should be zero level npcs that just say ''oki-day'' and never do anything?

You might just be too sensitive...

[MisterKaws]

Should small cities be unprepared for 5th level NPCs that might want to steal?

In my custom campaign, where magic is even more prevalent than in Tippyverse, they'd have miniature Peasant Coilguns, possibly even Telekinetic Ghost Coilguns, using the ghosts from the peasants who might die while preparing to fire it, so...

[Wolfkingleo]

.

But to say ''RP nerfed'' is a bit odd. Are you feeling like...because the game world exists you can't role play?

(...)

You might just be too sensitive...

Well that maybe the issue, despite not being me the one who got burdened with this "limitations"=P




Should small cities be unprepared for 5th level NPCs that might want to steal?

So far we haven't found a small city that has anything that the Rogue could value to steal, and unless plot says otherwise, I don't think that it should have magical items or stuff like that, the same way that I think that uber-guards would be a waste in such settlements or a poor excuse.

But really, the rogue tends to pickpocket careless aristocrats/bystanders in order to cheap his staying in town (althought barely), stealing expensive stuff from shops/merchants only happened in this sect.




Maybe the DM isnt being to harsh on the punishment maybe he is just trying to get the Rouge to think outside the box and not just try the basic ways of stealing stuff but to get creative.

Also the rouge doesnt always have to be the guy with daggers and a cloak sneaking around and stealing from shops , you could be doing like what im doing with my current character.

(...)

Also as a friendly rouge tip try buying off some guards or getting leverage on them to make them work for you then you could litterally walk into a shop and grab stuff and the guards will look the other way or claim that you were off doing something else

I really liked your input, in fact in a previous adventure with another group, I used to play like this, never revealing my true name and always changing a bit my clothing in order to never look the same. ;)




Honestly you are getting off easy. If my players were running around burning dowb guard houses and stealing magic items they would quickly find bounties being posted and mid level adventurers hunting them.

Something like that happened in other circunstances (except the "mid level" and the one that was hunted was our Cleric for lefting his church before a passing ritual took place), that is how our sorcerer joined the crew.

You guys really helped me seeing things that I did not considered before hand, thanks a lot!^^

Cheers