Tome of Magic

[Aetis]

Hello, playgrounders.

I was considering allowing Tome of Magic on my table. Any particular thing I need to watch out for?

We play between lv 1 thru 11, and fair amount of optimization is done by the players.

[ComaVision]

Yes, anyone playing a Shadowcaster or Truenamer might become suicidal. Please keep an eye on them.

Binder is pretty neat, and not overpowered.

[Inevitability]

Tome of Magic? Seems like an interesting book to me, too bad it doesn't have more than one class.

Seriously though, the book (well, the binder portion at least) seems fine to me. If a player asks for permission to use the web supplements to the book, you may want to double check, though: one of the vestiges there is ridiculously strong (as in: bumping the binder up a tier by itself).

[Aetis]

Uhhh, is it ok if I ask for more explanations

I feel like I am not catching all these memes flying about

[LordOfCain]

Uhhh, is it ok if I ask for more explanations

I feel like I am not catching all these memes flying about

I believe they are saying that the truenamer/shadowcaster are horribly underpowered and the binder is the only playable class in the Tome of Magic.

[BowStreetRunner]

We've had ToM available for a long time but nobody ever broke the game with it. It rarely gets used as much more than a peripheral supplement. There are a few things worth looking at. I personally love the Dark Creature template. There are some nice items in there - Shadow Silk armor and Greater Shroud of Night are two of my favorites. The Bind Vestige feat is a nice way to 'dip' into the Pact Magic section without committing to a Binder. For PCs, I don't often find anyone really getting heavily into this book. For NPCs, I think the DM benefits more from some of the interesting flavor that is added to the game.

[ComaVision]

lol The Truenamer pretty much does not function unless you optimize your Truespeak checks really hard. The Shadowcaster does function but it quite underpowered.

[Telonius]

Uhhh, is it ok if I ask for more explanations

I feel like I am not catching all these memes flying about

Short version: Truenamer is broken. (As in, does not work the way the designers thought it was supposed to). It's wretchedly underpowered without pulling serious shenanigans to bump up the Truespeak check, and even when you make the check, what you can do with it is often very lame. EDIT: It also has what's probably the biggest power whiplash in the entire game, in the very late levels, when it goes from "completely worthless" to "gets Gate."

Shadowcaster is a lower-powered class. The class designer agreed and offered some suggestions (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?184955-Shadowcaster-fixes-by-Mouseferatu) about how you could bump it up in power. It can do some nifty things, but its fluff was a lot better than its crunch.

Binder is very nice. It's very dippable, and is a primary ingredient in most Hellfire Warlock builds.

[Wolfkingleo]

As stated before, Tome of Magic adds some good flavor on character development but mechanic wise is lackluster.

I find Shadowcaster, in concept, fantastic and very intriguind lorewise. However he fell too far behind the other casters and even crude martial classes when in terms of power. I don't remember where I saw a fix, but the guy who wrote it made the class playable and not much broken.

Truenamer is.........horrid, it doesn't do anything right in the early levels and become effective USELESS later on since the checks for his utterances keeps increasing to the point of pointless atempts of being amusing.

Binder is decent lore and mechanic wise, and gets better with online vestiges (if the party have a wizard, you do not need to check since you will have a reality warp comming your way). Also RP when the vestige took over the PC is interesting and can make some good laughts depending on the situation.

So all in all, you can allow the book, just make sure that the player hit the right spot on his sheet, since it will be easy to screw a build with a bad choice.

Cheers

[Red Fel]

Uhhh, is it ok if I ask for more explanations

I feel like I am not catching all these memes flying about

Others have said it as well, but here's an overview. Tome of Magic presents three alternate systems of magic.
Pact Magic: The section on Pact Magic introduces the Binder class, a class in which the character makes a pact with a being from beyond, which grants him various passive and at-will abilities.
Shadow Magic: The section on Shadow Magic introduces the Shadowcaster class, a class in which the character learns spell-like and supernatural abilities called Mysteries.
Truename Magic: The section on Truename Magic introduces the Truenamer class, a class in which the character can use the Truespeak skill as a skill check to produce magical effects.
Binders are favored around these parts. They're versatile, in that you can form a different Pact from one day to the next, with different benefits all day. They're also great for taking a one- or two-level dip, since the dip gives you the class' basic ability to form Pacts, and even low-level ones can be very useful and flavorful.

Shadowcasters, as mentioned, are rubbish. Their progression is awkward and pigeonholed by the ability descriptions. The proposed fix addresses a lot of the concerns, but even so, it requires some contortion to get there.

Truenamers are absolutely awful. Due to how Truespeak abilities work, your abilities get (1) harder to use over the course of a day, and (2) harder to use the higher level you are, which is just plain absurd. If you don't expend the maximum effort and resources towards optimizing your skill check, you are worse than useless. If you multiclass or otherwise turn your focus away, you are worse than useless. The class has some firepower at the highest levels, but getting there is the stuff of nightmares.

My advice? Don't allow the book until you've read it. Once you have, and once you understand it, allow it with the disclaimer that Truenamers and Shadowcasters are simply awful, and you will not be held responsible for pathetically bad characters who use them. Then roll the dice.

[weckar]

I actually don't dislike the Shadowcaster as much as some people here. Fun things can be done with it that you can't really do anywhere else. You are giving up versatility and power for uniqueness - I think in some groups that's a fair trade.

[Jowgen]

People have basically summed it up, although with the designer-suggested fixes in play and supplemental mysteries allowed, Shadow Magic is a whole lot of fun. Not particularly powerful, mind you, but fun to play around with.

For example, the Shadow Magic version of Mage Hand works on magic items, and with one of the mysteries from the Cityscape web enhancement, you can use Shadow Hand to perform ranged Sleight of Hand checks.

[The Viscount]

To answer in a little more detail, Truenamer breaks down because the DCs for the skill checks to do your magic increases by 2 every level, and you can only put in 1 point every level. It is possible to actually make those checks with sufficient optimization, but even then abilities are mostly not up to par with other classes. Some argue truenamer is actually better, usually due to exploitating of poor wording.

Shadowcaster's progression is slightly frustrating, but the main problem is that they get 1 use of each of their spell equivalents per day, later increasing to up to 3 (but only for the weakest). There simply aren't enough per day to last through proper combat. Using the fix provided by the designer and some well thought choices, it can be better. To be clear, shadowcaster often can be powerful, its largest issue is with lasting the full encounters for the day (and a lesser spread of powers than regular casters). The web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a) shadowcasters is pretty good, just offering more mysteries(spell equivalents). Piggy Knowles wrote a good handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?268661-3-5-Pulvis-Et-Umbra-Sumus-The-Shadowcaster-Handbook) on using them.

Binder is considered by most to be a good class in most metrics. It sits comfortably in T3, it offers great roleplay ability, there's lots of customization, you don't have to agonize over vestige choices because you can just choose new ones every day, and you can easily tweak your power level via vestige choice to blend in with your party. (Can you tell it's my favorite?) There are several vestiges presented outside ToM, and have varying degrees of relevance. I'll discuss them all briefly

Astaroth:https://8wayrun.com/attachments/astsc2cg1-jpg.3490/ presented in the same enhancement as the shadowcaster one. I think he fits in pretty well with the vestiges, he's got some power but he's not the strongest. You can use him to be competent at crafting, but you won't be as good as others since you wont usually have the spells to make magic items. There's also a rules quibble that it doesn't give you a virtual caster level for items; if it gives you one it becomes pretty nice.

Desharis: Same link as above. Overall not bad, the primary draw is the ability to animate objects as the spell

Arete, the Triad, and Abysm: (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a) Not good. They don't seem very in keeping with the spirit of binder, since all three have some limited pools of resources (and way too limited at that), and they seemed unclear on how many abilities a vestige should grant. Arete gives some mild utility, and way too few pp. He grants 13 when you get access at level 7, 2 below the bare amount that a Psychic Warrior gets. In addition, this never scales, so falls behind fast. Abysm grants 21 pp at level 17, which is 24 points behind a Divine Mind (which has the fewest pp of any class) and 70 behind a Psychic Warrior. All he grants you are powers, all are 1st or 2nd level (way too low for the highest level vestige). The Triad give you 15 pp for a few ok powers, a smite that is per day instead of per 5 rounds like Andras, and the only thing that really matters: proficiency with all simple, martial, and exotic weapons. You can do some fun things with this, but I haven't looked into it too much. There are some things you can do with being psionic from this, but in general not worth it.

Vanus: (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060407a) Less discussed, but pretty cool. Slightly weaker than other 6ths, but the ability to hit allies with freedom of movement is not found elsewhere.

Ashardalon: Presented in Dragon Magic. He's not good. You can duplicate almost all of his abilities (or close to them) through other vestiges or pact bonuses, and he doesn't give enough for an 8th.

Zceryll: (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) She is the one everyone is referring to as jumping binder to T2, and they're not wrong. All her abilities are good and very strong for her level (I would argue too strong). The main ones of note are Mindsight with Telepathy 100 feet (which beats all stealth, even darkstalker) and Summon Alien, which summons any creature from the summon monster list, at level. The duration for this isn't listed, I think it's sane to assume the duration for the spell for a caster of your binder level, others may disagree. Even assuming duration is the above and not permanent, you can do it every 5 rounds so can begin combat with a coterie of monsters. Endless summons solves a lot of problems, and the SLAs these monsters have will jump your utility up to T2. You can still play in a game with a Binder with access to Zceryll, but you will need to set some expectations of what they will and won't do with the summons.

In general things to watch out for: don't let your players play truenamer unless they really know what they're getting into, if anyone is playing binder have a frank discussion about Zceryll. A binder will most likely take improved binding, and while it is good, it shouldn't overpower or unbalance anything.

[mabriss lethe]

One build I've been tinkering with that I have yet to play, but looks like it will be fun is something I'm calling Tom the Dabbler. The core concept is a shadowcaster base with the vestige binding and utterance feats.

[illyahr]

One build I've been tinkering with that I have yet to play, but looks like it will be fun is something I'm calling Tom the Dabbler. The core concept is a shadowcaster base with the vestige binding and utterance feats.

Unless you are going straight Truenamer, so as to max out your Truespeak check, don't bother with utterances at all. There is only one Truenamer build that is effective, and it takes a lot of work to get it to run properly.

While Shadowcaster is fairly weak, as far as "casters" go, it is a very flavorful class. The creator's fixes help with the sub-par resources, allowing you extra uses of your mysteries per day for example, so you can have a lot of fun with it.

As for binder, just keep an eye out for trap and broken vestiges (as Red Fel pointed out) and you shouldn't have a problem.

[Extra Anchovies]

if anyone is playing binder have a frank discussion about Zceryll

GMs: talk to your players about Zceryll, before someone else does.

[Thurbane]

My summary of ToM:

Binders - yay! Fun and versatile.

Shadowcasters - meh. Kind of OK, but mostly just come across as a Sorcerer or Wizards poor cousin.

Truenamers - mmmph. If they worked the way they are supposed to, you could play awesome Earthsea characters. Without ridiculously high op investment or flat out house-ruling, they are barely playable.

[Aetis]

Ok, thanks for the advices.

I've read the books through kinda and nothing seem to be too insane.

I think I understand Binder class. Zceryll would only come online at lv 10ish, which is near the end of our usual campaigns, so it shouldn't cause too much problems.

Shadow magic feature slightly better versions of the actual spells far as I can tell, but apparently you can only cast them like once a day so they're heavily limited. Plus split stat casting hurts them a lot. I see why you guys call this class underpowered.

I'm not sure what to make of Truenamer other than the fact that there's this giant scaling check you have to make to use your abilities? (DC 15 + what amounts to level times two)

I guess Tome of Magic doesn't bring sweeping changes to the table as some of the other books do.

[illyahr]

Please note that there is a semi-official fix by the guy who wrote the Shadowcaster (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?184955-Shadowcaster-fixes-by-Mouseferatu). It doesn't improve its power much but it does make it less clunky.

[Draconium]

I'm not sure what to make of Truenamer other than the fact that there's this giant scaling check you have to make to use your abilities? (DC 15 + what amounts to level times two)

I believe it is because that would mean VS an CR 20 opponent, it's a DC of 55, but the absolute highest you can roll on the check without using brokenly powerful (AKA cheesy) mechanics is a 52. I'm sure someone else can explain it better, though.

That, and most of their utterances kinda suck, and their DC goes up every time you use them in a day, and you can't have more than one of the same utterance "activated" at the same time.

[Troacctid]

People need to stop saying that Truenamer is unplayable because of Truespeak DCs. It's just not true. If all you have are max ranks in Truespeak, a level-appropriate silvertongue amulet, Skill Focus (Truespeak), and a level-appropriate Intelligence, you already have an acceptable success rate for utterances of the evolving mind at all levels, and you easily auto-succeed on utterances of the crafted tool and perfected map. It's not rocket science. I can show you the numbers if you don't believe me.

[illyahr]

I believe it is because that would mean VS an CR 20 opponent, it's a DC of 55, but the absolute highest you can roll on the check without using brokenly powerful (AKA cheesy) mechanics is a 52. I'm sure someone else can explain it better, though.

That, and most of their utterances kinda suck, and their DC goes up every time you use them in a day, and you can't have more than one of the same utterance "activated" at the same time.

Lets add it up, shall we? Truespeak is Int-based so 36 by level 20 (18 start +2 racial, +5 level, +5 tome, +6 equipment) gives us a +13. Add +23 for ranks (up to +36), +3 from Skill Focus (+39), Amulet of the Silver Tongue, Greater gets an extra +10 (up to +49).

With a d20 roll, you get anywhere from 50-69.

The DC of Truespeak is 15 + (2 x CR). So a CR 27 creature (not unheard of) has a Truespeak DC of 69. You only have a 5% chance that the utterance even works.

Affecting yourself at level 20 would be a DC of 55, so you still have a 25% chance of failing to use an ability on yourself after tailoring your build to be as beneficial as possible.

[Draconium]

Lets add it up, shall we? Truespeak is Int-based so 36 by level 20 (18 start +2 racial, +5 level, +5 tome, +6 equipment) gives us a +13. Add +23 for ranks (up to +36), +3 from Skill Focus (+39), Amulet of the Silver Tongue, Greater gets an extra +10 (up to +49).

With a d20 roll, you get anywhere from 50-69.

The DC of Truespeak is 15 + (2 x CR). So a CR 27 creature (not unheard of) has a Truespeak DC of 69. You only have a 5% chance that the utterance even works.

Affecting yourself at level 20 would be a DC of 55, so you still have a 25% chance of failing to use an ability on yourself after tailoring your build to be as beneficial as possible.

Ah, thanks for the actual numbers. Never actually tried to calculate it myself - my last post was just hearsay. :smallbiggrin:

[digiman619]

I'm not sure what to make of Truenamer other than the fact that there's this giant scaling check you have to make to use your abilities? (DC 15 + what amounts to level times two)

Let's just say that the check is either incredibly hard or incredibly easy, depending on how optimized you guys play at. Even if it's high enough that you auto succeed at it, what you can do with your utterances is pretty weak on the levels you get them.

[Troacctid]

Ah, thanks for the actual numbers. Never actually tried to calculate it myself - my last post was just hearsay. :smallbiggrin:

Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17MCVFx-p0qT3fUvRseEes0873CJqnxbbVeQAYS4uYaM/pubhtml) is the full math.

At level 20, you only fail your highest-level utterance on a natural 1, even with relatively low Intelligence (starting at 16 with no tomes or racial bonuses). Utterances of the crafted tool are so easy that you can quicken them (+20 to the DC) and still only fail on a natural 1. Utterances of the evolving mind will always have a chance for failure, but the success rate is at an acceptable level at most points in the curve.

[illyahr]

Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17MCVFx-p0qT3fUvRseEes0873CJqnxbbVeQAYS4uYaM/pubhtml) is the full math.

At level 20, you only fail your highest-level utterance on a natural 1, even with relatively low Intelligence (starting at 16 with no tomes or racial bonuses). Utterances of the crafted tool are so easy that you can quicken them (+20 to the DC) and still only fail on a natural 1. Utterances of the evolving mind will always have a chance for failure, but the success rate is at an acceptable level at most points in the curve.

Minor nit to pick, crafted tool and perfected map utterances aren't necessarily higher. They are an entirely separate category. The Truenamer basically has three different casting progressions.

Since crafted tool works on objects and perfected map works on locations, neither of which are trying to resist you, they are easier. Unfortunately, most of them are entirely underwhelming for the level you get them at. In the same vein as what digiman said, the ones worth using are entirely too difficult and the ones that you can pull off consistently usually aren't worth the effort.

[Troacctid]

Minor nit to pick, crafted tool and perfected map utterances aren't necessarily higher.
I'm going to go ahead and say that 4th level utterances of the perfected map (AKA gate) are your highest-level utterances. Hopefully that's not too controversial.


Unfortunately, most of them are entirely underwhelming for the level you get them at.
Yes, that's true of all utterances.

[illyahr]

I'm going to go ahead and say that 4th level utterances of the perfected map (AKA gate) are your highest-level utterances. Hopefully that's not too controversial.

Not at all. What I meant was just because it's a perfected map utterance doesn't mean it's higher leveled. Each group of utterances has their own level system. That being said, gate is extremely powerful, even with a spell list like the wizard has. It is far and away above anything else the truenamer can do.

[Willie the Duck]

Binder is very nice. It's very dippable, and is a primary ingredient in most Hellfire Warlock builds.


I guess Tome of Magic doesn't bring sweeping changes to the table as some of the other books do.

Well, these two things highlight what I dislike about the book -- it is mostly used to facilitate some other build. The Hellfire Warlock is one example. The HW's deal is that they can burn a Con point to add +2D6-+6D6 to their eldritch blasts, and a 1 level dip in binder can (I forget the actual choices you have to make, but it's obvious) eliminate the Con drain. Same thing happens with the Fochlucan Lyrist -- by spending two feats you can get the evasion prereq for the PrC without losing casting levels (or was that an Incarnum thing? I forget). Neither of the builds are overpowered (in fact, I don't think I'd bother with either without those "cheats" or something similar). I... I would just rather prefer that those PrCs would be built right in the first place, and not need the dip into ToM, and then ToM be able to stand up on it's own. Same with PrCs where no one ever goes in for more than a level or two dip.

I have seen a few people play actual binders from levels 1-20. Not many mind you, but some. It's a neat alternate to the regular D&D martial-vs.-wizard paradigm, but it (along with Incarnum) seem very much to be alternate magics for the sake of alternates.

[WeaselGuy]

I actually really liked the Shadowcaster class. Of course, when I played it, I also multiclassed with Rogue on a Ghostwise Halfling, then PrC'd into Arcane Trickster (DM let me use AT spellcasting progression on SC) and then finished off with Telflemmar Shadow Lord. Was a pretty fun character, but didn't win any awards for overpoweredness. We were a mostly t2-t4 group back then.

[ComaVision]

Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17MCVFx-p0qT3fUvRseEes0873CJqnxbbVeQAYS4uYaM/pubhtml) is the full math.

At level 20, you only fail your highest-level utterance on a natural 1, even with relatively low Intelligence (starting at 16 with no tomes or racial bonuses). Utterances of the crafted tool are so easy that you can quicken them (+20 to the DC) and still only fail on a natural 1. Utterances of the evolving mind will always have a chance for failure, but the success rate is at an acceptable level at most points in the curve.

I suppose it all depends on your definition of unplayable but a 45% chance to use your abilities at level 5 is unplayable by my standard. Truenamer has an unacceptably low optimization floor.

[Inevitability]

I suppose it all depends on your definition of unplayable but a 45% chance to use your abilities at level 5 is unplayable by my standard. Truenamer has an unacceptably low optimization floor.

Not to mention that if you do succeed in using your abilities, they're either weak or dysfunctional.

(I'm fully expecting Jormengand to burst in and correct me here)

[The Viscount]

There is a second problem with Truenamer other than the discussion of DCs, though the DC issue is not itself open and shut. It is true that you can feasibly hit DCs with optimization, but such optimization often involves things like tomes or item familiars, meaning spending large portions of WBL or asking your DM for the very sort of thing that is often banned. Also disregarding all of this, remember that many evolving mind utterances when used offensively offer saves, so if you want to use those you will have to optimize this as well (and it's difficult because of the way the ability works) or else see that realistic chance become smaller still.

The second problem is that the effects that you get with utterances aren't very competitive when compared to other classes. They simply aren't that good. I'm honestly asking those who are skilled in truenamer, if it were not hard to make the checks, let's say they were simply always available, what tier would Truenamer be?

The smaller lurking problem of implementation is the law of sequence, which doesn't make any sense any way you slice it. You can't have 2 versions of the same utterance at the same time, and reversed counts as the same utterance. Often the strongest utterances are the strongest in both ways, so you have to prioritize between buffing and debuffing.

Final question for the trunamer experts: Say we have a hypothetical truenamer in a campaign that we know isn't going to level 20, so we don't have to worry about sacrificing gate. Would a 1 level dip in exemplar for +4 to truenaming and taking 10 be worth the lost truenamer level and lost utterance?

[Troacctid]

There is a second problem with Truenamer other than the discussion of DCs, though the DC issue is not itself open and shut. It is true that you can feasibly hit DCs with optimization, but such optimization often involves things like tomes or item familiars, meaning spending large portions of WBL or asking your DM for the very sort of thing that is often banned.
Those things aren't required to feasibly hit DCs. Again, that's a myth. See my math above.

[Cosi]

The only thing in Tome of Magic that's seriously worth considering is Anima Mage. It gives you some random abilities from vestiges and free metamagic. It's one of the many acceptable but unexciting Wizard PrCs, but that's a lot better than .. everything else in the book.


Those things aren't required to feasibly hit DCs. Again, that's a myth. See my math above.

Your highest success rate for your first attempt is barely better than a Wizard in full plate. Have you ever seen a Wizard wear full plate? Because I haven't.

[Red Fel]

Your highest success rate for your first attempt is barely better than a Wizard in full plate. Have you ever seen a Wizard wear full plate? Because I haven't.

Runecaster would like a word with you.

But yeah. Despite the math, Tro, it's a class that gets harder to use as you level. Even assuming for sake of argument that the DCs aren't unreachable, the fact that abilities get harder to use the more skilled you get is just bad design. Clearly, the devs wanted to give a cool speech-skill-based power set, suddenly realized that it would result in at-will abilities, irrationally decided that at-will abilities are per se overpowered (because Warlocks, amirite?), and promptly attempted to nerf the class into the ground before it left the print shop.

[Troacctid]

Your highest success rate for your first attempt is barely better than a Wizard in full plate. Have you ever seen a Wizard wear full plate? Because I haven't.
I mean, what's the success rate on a typical saving throw or attack roll at that level? Abilities that succeed or fail based on a d20 roll are hardly outside the norm for this edition. Success rates that decrease as you level up aren't uncommon either—enemy saving throws scale faster than PC save DCs, for example.

[digiman619]

I mean, what's the success rate on a typical saving throw or attack roll at that level? Abilities that succeed or fail based on a d20 roll are hardly outside the norm for this edition. Success rates that decrease as you level up aren't uncommon either—enemy saving throws scale faster than PC save DCs, for example.

Except a lot of utterances require a saving throw in addition anyway.

[Troacctid]

Well yeah, that's because utterances suck.

[Cosi]

I mean, what's the success rate on a typical saving throw or attack roll at that level? Abilities that succeed or fail based on a d20 roll are hardly outside the norm for this edition. Success rates that decrease as you level up aren't uncommon either—enemy saving throws scale faster than PC save DCs, for example.

Your highest chance of success comes at 11th level. An 11th level Truenamer has two 4th level Evolving Mind utterances. Your best offensive option is a single target save-or-nauseate. That might be awesome if Wizards hadn't had AoE save-or-nauseate since 5th level. I'm not even going to bother doing a comparison to the Wizard. Your best offensive option requires a save, and Wizards had a better version of it six levels ago. And you still have a 25% failure rate. For the first cast.

[Inevitability]

Your highest chance of success comes at 11th level. An 11th level Truenamer has two 4th level Evolving Mind utterances. Your best offensive option is a single target save-or-nauseate. That might be awesome if Wizards hadn't had AoE save-or-nauseate since 5th level. I'm not even going to bother doing a comparison to the Wizard. Your best offensive option requires a save, and Wizards had a better version of it six levels ago. And you still have a 25% failure rate. For the first cast.

A better comparison would be Fengut (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030706a), a single target save-or-nauseate for wizards. It is 1st-level, by the way.

[Troacctid]

Your highest chance of success comes at 11th level. An 11th level Truenamer has two 4th level Evolving Mind utterances. Your best offensive option is a single target save-or-nauseate. That might be awesome if Wizards hadn't had AoE save-or-nauseate since 5th level. I'm not even going to bother doing a comparison to the Wizard. Your best offensive option requires a save, and Wizards had a better version of it six levels ago. And you still have a 25% failure rate. For the first cast.
Exactly. The underpoweredness of truenamers comes down to the simple sad fact that utterances suck. If you gave them spellcasting as a wizard with the truename mechanic instead of spell slots, they'd easily be T1 even with the failure rate, and you wouldn't hear anyone complaining about how dysfunctional the class supposedly is. Instead their spell list is a pile of crap that doesn't even compare favorably against warlock invocations, and they're T5 with outs to T4 at high-op.

[Cosi]

A better comparison would be Fengut (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030706a), a single target save-or-nauseate for wizards. It is 1st-level, by the way.

Also, it lasts longer than the utterance does. I didn't mention it for two reasons:

First, using a web enhancement spell seems kind of cheap, especially when there's a core spell that does the job just as well.

Second, I totally forgot that spell existed.


Exactly. The underpoweredness of truenamers comes down to the simple sad fact that utterances suck.

No, it's both. Their utterances suck and their casting mechanic is awful. I direct you once again to the Wizard in Full Plate. Is that a thing that happens at your tables?


If you gave them spellcasting as a wizard with the truename mechanic instead of spell slots, they'd easily be T1 even with the failure rate, and you wouldn't hear anyone complaining about how dysfunctional the class supposedly is.

This isn't even true. They're T2 at best in that case, because they learn like a Sorcerer. Also, you would totally hear people complain about the failure rate because, again, it's like a Wizard wearing Full Plate.

Actually, that's an interesting question: at what level of spell failure chance would you play a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard (assuming that, else equal, you'd normally play a Wizard)?

[Troacctid]

No, it's both. Their utterances suck and their casting mechanic is awful. I direct you once again to the Wizard in Full Plate. Is that a thing that happens at your tables?
Having a 35% chance of failing on any given attempt at a thing is common at my tables, yes.

[Cosi]

Having a 35% chance of failing on any given attempt at a thing is common at my tables, yes.

Stop being obtuse. Yes, people can make saving throws. Yes, people can miss on attacks. That's true. That is in no way equivalent to ACF or the Truenamer. Those are chances to fail before you even get to use your ability.

[Troacctid]

Stop being obtuse. Yes, people can make saving throws. Yes, people can miss on attacks. That's true. That is in no way equivalent to ACF or the Truenamer. Those are chances to fail before you even get to use your ability.
ASF is a much worse comparison than a failed attack roll. A wizard in full plate has a 35% chance of losing the spell completely and wasting the slot. Truenamers don't. If you fail your Truespeak check, you can try again next round with no penalty, and on and on until you succeed. A failed ASF roll represents a significant loss of daily resources for a wizard; a failed Truespeak check sets a truenamer back one round. Furthermore, full plate armor imposes some nasty nonproficiency and encumbrance penalties, so even if it had 0% spell failure, most wizards would not wear it. (Case in point: truenamers are rarely seen in full plate, despite having no somatic components for any of their utterances.)

[darkdragoon]

Shadowcaster and Truenamer are pretty much the poster children for "neat idea, terrible implementation." Binder has "lists of lists" syndrome but the things it can grant are useful and it can Lego into a bunch of other things.

[ko_sct]

Pretty much all there is to say has been said.

I'll simply add that the Anima mage prestige class (probably one of my favorites) can be quite strong depending on the optimisation level of your group.

It's in the binder section of the book, and it progress both binding and arcane casting like a theurge class, but only require 1 level of binder and a feat (or 0lvl and 2 feats) to enter. It's not game breaking out of the box, but the free metamagic 1-3/day can be quite strong, especially with the right metamagics.




Also, like others said. If someone play shadowcaster, use the fix that's been posted. It's just really really sad without. Especially at low lvls.

[Cosi]

ASF is a much worse comparison than a failed attack roll. A wizard in full plate has a 35% chance of losing the spell completely and wasting the slot. Truenamers don't. If you fail your Truespeak check, you can try again next round with no penalty, and on and on until you succeed.

If the primary problem with ASF was losing your spell slot (rather than waiting to cast your spell), celerity and friends would not be popular. We know actions now are more important than spell slots later, because when allowed to trade spell slots later for actions now people totally do that.