A stupid build for abusing Greenflame Blade against high AC opponents

[Belac93]

So, the basic idea for this character is to use the secondary effect of Greenflame Blade to damage high AC opponents without having to actually hit them. Needless to say, it's a bit stupid, but I could see it being fun.

So, here are the bare bones for this character:

A crap-ton of Rats This will allow you to stab the rats with your dagger, triggering the secondary effect of Greenflame Blade. If your DM is nice, he will let you tie them up for an auto-hit, or advantage. Since they only have 10 AC, you can probably hit them 75% of the time at level 1. Alternatively, you can buy camels, who have the disadvantage of being large, but the advantages of possibly surviving more than one hit, and having only 9 AC.
Greenflame blade Pretty obvious, this is a build about abusing the spell.
High Charisma This will be needed to be as high as possible. Only Dexterity and Constitution require any other boosting, and just for AC and hit points.
6 Levels of Draconic Sorcerer Having 6 levels of Draconic sorcerer gets you a few key things; Quickened/Twinned spell, and Elemental Affinity. Quickened/Twinned spell lets you trigger the damage an extra time, while Elemental affinity allows you to add your Charisma modifier to your secondary greenflame blade damage. At level 6, it will be dealing 1d8+8 damage.
1 level of Undying Light Warlock This will let you add your Charisma Modifier to any spell dealing fire damage, including greenflame blade.
Optional: 2 levels of fighter For that sweet, sweet action surge.

So, let's see what a level 9 character (8 levels of sorcerer, 1 level of warlock) can accomplish with 16 Dexterity, and 20 Charisma.

You run up to big bad monster, lets say a warrior with plate armour and a shield, giving him an AC of 20. You have +7 to hit, meaning you have to get a 13 or higher to hit. This will not do! You want higher than that. So, you take the rat tied to your belt, and take your knife, and stab it. This is much easier! You have advantage, and only have to roll a 3 or higher to hit! You have some sorcery points to use, so you twin and quicken greenflame blade, stabbing 2 more rats! The fire leaps out at the big monster, automatically hitting, and deals 3d8+45 damage total (or an average of 58.5 damage).

Assuming you also have 2 levels of fighter (at level 11), then you instead deal 9d8+75 damage, for an average of 115.5 damage (twinned greenflame blade, action surge for twinned greenflame blade, quickened greenflame blade, and the level 11 greenflame blade boost).

So, there you have it folks! The character build based around murdering woodland creatures so that you can more easily kill big armoured freaks!

Thoughts?

[MrStabby]

Does the elemental sorcerer ability add Cha to the damage on the rat or the damage on the armoured dude?

[Belac93]

Does the elemental sorcerer ability add Cha to the damage on the rat or the damage on the armoured dude?

Both, I believe. They add their Charisma modifier to the damage to all enemies on a fireball, so I don't see why it wouldn't work on both.

[Black Socks]

This is, as you said, stupid, yet very clever, but I don't want to use it because my DM might cry and/or rage and/or ban me from the table.

[Grod_The_Giant]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/achgen360/t/tcUrnaQx.png

[Stealthscout]

Oh, comeon. You can do better than that - have a strength of 8 and punch yourself in the face.

Damage can be reduced down to a minimum of 0 and a punch does 1 damage base. So, you can't take damage even if you punch yourself, but I guarantee you will hit every time.


Think of your dragon sorcerer, epic duelist challenging the big bad to a duel. When the BBEG's mooks rush you, it is a simple shield spell and you dance through the swarm to meet your true foe (provocatively - use that charisma). You momentarily give a withering death stare... and then punch yourself until he dies in a smoking crater.

[Finlam]

I think it would go well 7 levels of Oathbreaker Paladin which allows for +CHA on all melee attacks. If you use Shillelagh (from tome lock at level 3) you only need one stat for all of combat.

The build comes out to Paladin 7/Sorc 6/Warlock 3 and with a single casting of gfb your dealing

1d8(magical weapon) + 3d8 (fire) +3*CHA ..... For he first part of the attack and 2d8 + 2*CHA on the second attack. For an average of 52 damage per casting.

That doesn't include any extra damage from dueling style. And you can twin/quicken it. And you're completely SAD. And you're still got 4 levels left to fun around with. Not too bad.

I mean you'd want to hit an enemy with the main attack (or a camel that you really hate) but other than that, it's not too bad.

[pwykersotz]

Honestly? I probably wouldn't even ban this. We have a houserule of a stat bonus only applying once which would decrease the damage by a nominal amount, but even without that, this seems to be on the fun end of optimization. Plus, the fun that can be had with a bag of rats can happen on both sides of the table. :smalltongue:

[fbelanger]

Cant use twin spell on green flame.
See sage advice.

Undying warlock is still playtest material!
Thank for your play test.

Otherwise a wise DM would just say no to this trick.

[PeteNutButter]

Cant use twin spell on green flame.
See sage advice.

Undying warlock is still playtest material!
Thank for your play test.

Otherwise a wise DM would just say no to this trick.

^ this is why undying light and other UA content isn't AL legal. It's dumb to grant a level 6 class ability at level one, and also not say anything about them stacking. The AL legal version of this character can only quicken the GFB, doing 2d8+8 damage at level 6. Which is just bad.

As an aside, what happens when you can't find a rat store? Maybe go chain lock and pick an imp, so you can GFB punch him with your 8 str freely since he is immune to fire.

What an abusive relationship though...
The paladin asks, "what do you do in combat?"
"I throttle my pet."

EDIT: Also I could see the whole rat thing being abused by a GWM, who spends his first action GFB the rat for the free damage, and then does a bonus action attack on the foe.

[Belac93]

Cant use twin spell on green flame.
See sage advice.

I have seen that. It is technically not legal, but I know quite a few DMs who allow it to be twinned. If not, this build can still be done with just quickening for 2d8+30.


Undying warlock is still playtest material!
Yep, most ridiculous cheese is. If you didn't use it, it would decrease damage by 5 each attack, so it can still be used like that.


EDIT: Also I could see the whole rat thing being abused by a GWM, who spends his first action GFB the rat for the free damage, and then does a bonus action attack on the foe.

Ooh, nice idea! Gives you an extra attack, at the expense of quickening if you are using that.

[Giant2005]

Stabbing rats is obviously more effective, but much less cool than stabbing yourself.
A level 10 Tiefling or Dragonborn Fiendlock can have Resistance to both types of damage that your GFB would inflict upon yourself, so the self-damage can be manageable while using the secondary effect to harm your enemy. There's nothing more manly than seppukuing yourself only to have your enemy be the one to die.

[Rysto]

Damage can be reduced down to a minimum of 0 and a punch does 1 damage base. So, you can't take damage even if you punch yourself, but I guarantee you will hit every time.

Amusing, but you forget that GFB does 1d8 to the original target starting it level 5, and it goes up by 1d8 at levels 11 and 17.

[pwykersotz]

Stabbing rats is obviously more effective, but much less cool than stabbing yourself.
A level 10 Tiefling or Dragonborn Fiendlock can have Resistance to both types of damage that your GFB would inflict upon yourself, so the self-damage can be manageable while using the secondary effect to harm your enemy. There's nothing more manly than seppukuing yourself only to have your enemy be the one to die.

That would make for a supremely creepy character. Perfect for Curse of Strahd.

[Shaofoo]

And where will you be getting said rats?

That is a huge assumption to be making. This is the "Assume all backwater towns are stocked with expensive material components" all over again.

Not to mention how will you be taking care of said rats after the fact. If they die then no targeting them since they cease to be creatures (otherwise why bother with rats when you can attack your pet rock for the exact same thing).

[PeteNutButter]

And where will you be getting said rats?

That is a huge assumption to be making. This is the "Assume all backwater towns are stocked with expensive material components" all over again.

Not to mention how will you be taking care of said rats after the fact. If they die then no targeting them since they cease to be creatures (otherwise why bother with rats when you can attack your pet rock for the exact same thing).

Thats why you've got to punch your pet imp!

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Or "ritual sacrifice" your imp familiar using a non-magical dagger

It lies prone at your feet between you and the enemy. (You are 5 feet from imp and 10 feet from enemy, imp is 5 feet from enemy)

Green flame blade the Imp (advantage on prone target)
He resists the piercing damage and is immune to the fire

The fire leaps out and consumes your armored enemy

(Works better if you dumped Str or Dex to 8, 1d4-1 resisted by half is 0-1 damage. Harder to hit with a negative stat, but that's why advantage on prone imp)

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Thats why you've got to punch your pet imp!

I don't believe you can punch with GFB, it requires a weapon as a material component. Unarmed strikes are not weapons.

And I believe the RAI is you attack with that material component weapon, not just have it in hand and attack with something else

Edit: "As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack *with a weapon* against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails."

[Shaofoo]

Or "ritual sacrifice" your imp familiar using a non-magical dagger

It lies prone at your feet between you and the enemy. (You are 5 feet from imp and 10 feet from enemy, imp is 5 feet from enemy)

Green flame blade the Imp (advantage on prone target)
He resists the piercing damage and is immune to the fire

The fire leaps out and consumes your armored enemy

(Works better if you dumped Str or Dex to 8, 1d4-1 resisted by half is 0-1 damage. Harder to hit with a negative stat, but that's why advantage on prone imp)

What imp familar?

You would need Warlock 3 to get find familiar and to be able to get an imp.

Also you can't twin the same target so there goes a big chunk of damage right out.

But seriously, it requires way too much to be going your way for this to be effective.

ALso it requires UA to make it work and that is all kinds of broken anyway so I don't consider it cheese if the thing that you are using it is already cheese. It is like saying I totally made a broken character using DnDwiki, it is just implied.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Also you can't twin the same target so there goes a big chunk of damage right out.

You CAN NOT use Twinned Spell on GFB anyways, per sage advice.
And really? The swashbuckler was UA and now is legal, so clearly not "all UA is cheese"

[Shaofoo]

You CAN NOT use Twinned Spell on GFB anyways, per sage advice.

Like that has stopped people before, Sage Advice is useless around these parts to explain yourself.


And really? The swashbuckler was UA and now is legal, so clearly not "all UA is cheese"

More like the only thing that people mention when it comes to UA is the cheesy bits. Besides without the UA the damage tanks a ton due to the lack of that extra +Cha damage.

Also didn't Swashbuckler also had some changes from UA to become legal, I know that Storm Sorcerer had those extra spells nixed.

[PeteNutButter]

I don't believe you can punch with GFB, it requires a weapon as a material component. Unarmed strikes are not weapons.

Edit: "As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack *with a weapon* against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails."

Attack with a spoon then.

And yes it is all cheese, can't twin GFB, and UA is a mixed bag of balanced and not even close. Don't tell me ambuscade is balanced from the spell less ranger at level 1.

[Vogonjeltz]

Stabbing rats is obviously more effective, but much less cool than stabbing yourself.
A level 10 Tiefling or Dragonborn Fiendlock can have Resistance to both types of damage that your GFB would inflict upon yourself, so the self-damage can be manageable while using the secondary effect to harm your enemy. There's nothing more manly than seppukuing yourself only to have your enemy be the one to die.

If only you were a valid target for your own spells?

[MrStabby]

Both, I believe. They add their Charisma modifier to the damage to all enemies on a fireball, so I don't see why it wouldn't work on both.

I checked. Just one:
https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata-V1.pdf

[Belac93]

I checked. Just one:
https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata-V1.pdf


The damage bonus applies to one damage roll of a
spell, not multiple rolls. Alright, so you apply it to the secondary damage. You don't need the primary anyway, you're just attacking a rat/camel.

[MrStabby]

Alright, so you apply it to the secondary damage. You don't need the primary anyway, you're just attacking a rat/camel.

So you get to chose which one it gets applied to? I would have guessed that it would be applied to the first roll. Admittedly nowhere does it explicitly say you can't chose.

[Goober4473]

Is pulling out a rat an object interaction? If so, you only get one for free per turn, and further rats cost you an action. Or rose, it might require an action to grapple the rat, which is not technically an object.

Perhaps you could wear some kind of rat bandolier, giving you easy access to rats without having to pull them out of a pocket or bag?

[Shaofoo]

Is pulling out a rat an object interaction? If so, you only get one for free per turn, and further rats cost you an action. Or rose, it might require an action to grapple the rat, which is not technically an object.

Perhaps you could wear some kind of rat bandolier, giving you easy access to rats without having to pull them out of a pocket or bag?

This raises an interesting point.

If rats are their own creatures wouldn't they also get their own initiative counts, maybe the rats will be able to escape before you can even stab at them. Or hell maybe they'll escape long before that.

[ATHATH]

My two cents:
I don't consider Sage Advice as a valid source in my builds or games; their rulings in 3.5 sometimes made things worse/were flat-out wrong.

[Safety Sword]

Now all you need is two actions. One to release the rats from the bag and one to attack them...

[Belac93]

Now all you need is two actions. One to release the rats from the bag and one to attack them...

Thief for quick hands?

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Why release them? Just stab the bag

[PeteNutButter]

Why release them? Just stab the bag

I think you'd have disadvantage to hit them then since you couldn't see them.

[TheOldCrow]

It is possible to choose to knock out the rat with the melee weapon attack. So you could just stab the same poor rat over and over again.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

But the rats are restrained and blind in the bag, so granting advantage. Negates disadvantage.

[Shaofoo]

But seriously, any DM that isn't brain dead wouldn't allow any sort of "bag of rats" shenanigans to happen.

If you want to be true blue RAW then you can't have any kind of rats on you because they'd be sharing your space and that is illegal. Even a tiny creature has its own space that can't be violated (although free to scurry around in your space but can't stop).

[Xetheral]

Don't forget to drug your rats (or camel, imp familiar, etc) beforehand so that they're unconscious. Then your hits are automatic criticals, dealing the "real" target an additional d8 damage at 5th level, 2d8 at 11th, and 3d8 at 17th.

[Shaofoo]

Don't forget to drug your rats (or camel, imp familiar, etc) beforehand so that they're unconscious. Then your hits are automatic criticals, dealing the "real" target an additional d8 damage at 5th level, 2d8 at 11th, and 3d8 at 17th.

Actually if I am reading this right, Greenflame Blade says

"On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. The second creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier. This spell's damage increases when you reach higher levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target, and the fire damage to the second creature increases to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Both damage rolls increase by 1d8 at 11th level and 17th level."

Sounds to me that the melee attack and the fire leaping out are two distinct effects. Gaining a crit will not increase the damage of the fire because that is outside the attack itself. The crit would multiply the extra fire damage from the melee hit though.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Well it wouldn't truly be an edition of d&d until someone suggests a bag of rats :P

[Sir cryosin]

You can grab bard lv 6 for magical secrets for aura of vitality. And stab your self and heal your self.

[Xetheral]

Actually if I am reading this right, Greenflame Blade says

"On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. The second creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier. This spell's damage increases when you reach higher levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target, and the fire damage to the second creature increases to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Both damage rolls increase by 1d8 at 11th level and 17th level."

Sounds to me that the melee attack and the fire leaping out are two distinct effects. Gaining a crit will not increase the damage of the fire because that is outside the attack itself. The crit would multiply the extra fire damage from the melee hit though.

The key part of your quote is that all the damage dice (both the extra for the primary target and the extra for the secondary target) are granted only on a hit. Similarly, getting that hit is a sufficient condition to get the extra damage. As such, it seems to me that they would all be doubled. (If the leaping fire was not contingent on the success of the attack roll, I'd agree with you.)

It also seems to fit thematically. Since one's ability to aim the leaping fire is dependent on how well you attack (if you miss, no leaping), it makes intuitive sense to me that a particularly good attack would result in aiming the leaping flame even better.

GFB is a unique effect, however, so there is certainly room for disagreement.

[RyumaruMG]

Well it wouldn't truly be an edition of d&d until someone suggests a bag of rats :P

Or a preposterous amount of chickens.

[Shaofoo]

The key part of your quote is that all the damage dice (both the extra for the primary target and the extra for the secondary target) are granted only on a hit. Similarly, getting that hit is a sufficient condition to get the extra damage. As such, it seems to me that they would all be doubled. (If the leaping fire was not contingent on the success of the attack roll, I'd agree with you.)

It also seems to fit thematically. Since one's ability to aim the leaping fire is dependent on how well you attack (if you miss, no leaping), it makes intuitive sense to me that a particularly good attack would result in aiming the leaping flame even better.

GFB is a unique effect, however, so there is certainly room for disagreement.

The critical hit rules references that you roll for extra damage on the attack, it is not all damage that you would deal based on the attack. You don't double all damage when you Extra Attack and one of them is a critical hit (or even make them all hit if you crit one and miss with another).

Like I said, the extra fire damage based on the attack would be multiplied but not the shooting fire because that happens outside of the attack even if it is all one big effect.

Maybe a better example, would you multiply the Booming Blade's damage for moving if the initial hit was a crit? (I expect you to say yes).