Familiar: What is it good for?

[NickTheGreek3]

So I'm checking some caster builds and people actively suggest to use your familiar in combat to deliver spells or for flanking. XP-loss on familiar death aside, with half the hp of a caster (which are low enough already) and usually crappy AC, wouldn't it be killed instantly? Even if I didn't switch the familiar for a flashy ACF and had it stand on my shoulder and out of harm's way, a well-placed fireball would still burn it to cinders.
I'm aware that there are feats that improve your familiar somewhat, but why not some metamagic feats instead? So I'm asking, how do you guys use your familiars in combat?

[Boci]

I think the preferred method is to just toss polymorph/other buffs on it, since spells are a less precious resource than feat slots.

[dascarletm]

Absolutely Nothing!

Say it again, y'all.
Sorry I had to.

[LordOfCain]

Bonus to Initiative? Share pain for extra hit points?

[ComaVision]

Oh man, that reminds me, the wizard character in one of my games that just got Resurrected also has to deal with a dead familiar.

[NickTheGreek3]

I think the preferred method is to just toss polymorph/other buffs on it, since spells are a less precious resource than feat slots.

But if you're using polymorph, why not use it on yourself? Why not use summons if you want to send stuff into melee for that matter? They are usually better at the job AND disposable!


Absolutely Nothing!

Say it again, y'all.
Sorry I had to.
My point exactly! :smallbiggrin:


Bonus to Initiative? Share pain for extra hit points?
Again, there are way better feats to get.

[ComaVision]

But if you're using polymorph, why not use it on yourself?

You can share spells with your familiar, bro-diddly. 12 heads is better than 7*.







*Example uses 6-headed hydras.

[Boci]

But if you're using polymorph, why not use it on yourself? Why not use summons if you want to send stuff into melee for that matter? They are usually better at the job AND disposable!

You use a familiar because they share spells, unlike summons. You don't use yourself, because you are more valuable than the familiar.


Again, there are way better feats to get.


Pretty sure they mean humming bird familiar. +4 initiative, no feat necessary. Stacks with war wizards to get improved initiative.

[NickTheGreek3]

You can share spells with your familiar, bro-diddly. 12 heads is better than 7*.


*Example uses 6-headed hydras.
Dear Lord... :smalleek:


You use a familiar because they share spells, unlike summons. You don't use yourself, because you are more valuable than the familiar.
So basically you polymorph your familiar to something that can take punishment and cast touch spells through it? Reasonable enough, I guess, but you could use ranged spells and risk nothing - certainly not a creature that could cost you a f**kton of XP if it dies.


Pretty sure they mean humming bird familiar. +4 initiative, no feat necessary. Stacks with war wizards to get improved initiative.
Wasn't aware of that. My bad.

[Calthropstu]

I generally keep familiars out of combat. But they can be useful. Getting a faerie dragon, for example, allows something that can deliver touch spells with great accuracy and it's a very useful messenger and scout.
Polymorphing it into a hydra is quite effective and allows you to still cast spells.
Familiars can also be equipped with items and can use its activated abilities. Having it use wands is the most effective way I know of to have it provide support.

[ryu]

Dear Lord... :smalleek:


So basically you polymorph your familiar to something that can take punishment and cast touch spells through it? Reasonable enough, I guess, but you could use ranged spells and risk nothing - certainly not a creature that could cost you a f**kton of XP if it dies.


Wasn't aware of that. My bad.

Also cross class ranks in use magic device can be shared with your familiar. Get that hummingbird a wand. My personal favorite is dweomer vortex to combat other casters, but there are other good options. Are you starting to respect familiars yet?

[Boci]

So basically you polymorph your familiar to something that can take punishment and cast touch spells through it? Reasonable enough, I guess, but you could use ranged spells and risk nothing - certainly not a creature that could cost you a f**kton of XP if it dies.

Pretty much. You can use range touch spells, but they tend to be weaker than melee touch spells. You can turn melee touch into ranged touch, but only by investing feat for metamagic, and then you're paying higher level spell slots. So risk vs. reward. Polymorph your familiar into a war troll, send them in with max hp, and you can send them out when they get to half or something. There's some margin for error, but no guts no glory.

[Beheld]

Things Familiars can be used for:

1) Aid Another all skill checks, and give you alertness. Your level 1 Wizard with zero ranks now has 4+Wisdom bonus to spot, you now get +2 on a bunch of skill rolls.

2) Raven Familiar speaks, at higher levels he can activate Wands each round on his action, thus totally balls to the walls worth having around, because extra actions.

3) Hummingbird Familiar gives +4 Init, that alone is better than most ACFs.

4) Buy a scroll of Imbue With Spell Ability, give your Familiar spells to cast during combat. Requires component management, but if Raven, can have verbal components.

5) Use the level 5 or 6 Wizard spell that let's you give even more of your spells to your familiar for him to cast. These can be any spells, because your familiar doesn't have to do the components.

6) Share or just straight up cast Personal range spells with your familiar, there's those weird polymorph subschool spells that act as replacement spells, turn your familiar into a Beholder, have him literally just use all of a Beholder's abilities, including infinite disintegrates for out of combat tunnelling and AMF cone on enemies trying to fly up to you.

7) Have your familiar be undead (can be lots of ways, spell that does it, ect.) Spell stitch it with Animate Dead and some combat spells, use your familiar to create your free undead army and also have SLAs to cast in combat.

8) Have a familiar with telepathy, have it spend a feat on mindsight, all the benefits without the feat cost, also you can turn it into forms with longer range telepathy without suffering the problems of being those forms yourself.

9) Level 17: Share Shapechange with your familiar, spends every single standard action shooting out a different supernatural attack from a monster with 25HD.

10) I guess you could have it deliver touch spells or something, if you wanted....

Also, Familiars get Improved Evasion, they basically can't die to a fireball unless that fireball also kills you.

[MisterKaws]

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer familiars have Bard HP, and don't even get me started on the Dvati Stalwart Battle Sorcerer familiars, which have the same HP as their owners.

[Kurald Galain]

Pathfinder has the 'figment' familiar, which if killed will return the next morning since it's a figment of your imagination...

[weckar]

Most things you can exchange it for aren't really that good either... You know, if you're not a specialist conjurer.

[ryu]

Most things you can exchange it for aren't really that good either... You know, if you're not a specialist conjurer.

Although if you're gonna Prc you should do it anyway and obtain a familiar with a feat. The feat familiar scales with the non-wizard levels. The base one doesn't.

[Red Fel]

Pathfinder has the 'figment' familiar, which if killed will return the next morning since it's a figment of your imagination...

I mean, if you're going with PF, that raises the fact that PF actually has archetypes for your familiar. Seriously (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes). Figment is one example. Another is the Mauler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/mauler-familiar-archetype), which is specifically designed to transform into a stronger battle-form in combat. Another is the Protector (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/protector-familiar-archetype), which is specifically designed to take hits for you.

There are non-combat uses, too. The Sage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/sage-familiar-archetype) is basically a Pokedex. The School Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/school-familiar-familiar-archetype) gets special Sp and Su abilities depending on your specialized school. And the Valet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/valet-familiar-archetype) will be the Alfred to your Batman Wizard.

They're actually kinda more useful in some ways in PF, is the point.

[Rothgar Ironmit]

Have your familiar be a bird and fly above you to look ahead and hes out of harms way but you could give him some of your spells and graft small arms on him so he could hold components he needs for certain spells or he could have a skewer as a weapons and have him stab your opponents eyes as a sneak attack especially if you craft a collar for the bird that will telepathically link the two of you so you can give him orders on the fly without even speaking

[Eldariel]

In order from basic to advanced:
- Menial tasks. It can pick items up for you, press buttons, move on its own, etc.
- Minor bonuses: 3 HP on level 1 can be nice, as can any of the skill or save bonuses. You also get Alertness for both of you. Better bonuses such as Hummingbird's Initiative exist elsewhere, and Elven Wizards can double the bonus on level 3.
- Secondary perception rolls, complete with additional senses: Bat has Blindsense for instance. As familiar has your skill ranks, it can Aid Another you with almost anything, as well as give you second rolls for almost anything.
- Spell target. E.g. Benign Transposition (1st level spell) allows switching places with a friendly creature...such as your familiar that can potentially fly or whatever. Makes for a very versatile low level teleport.
- Spell duplication. Thanks to Share Spells you can do all sorts of cool stuff. Your familiar can e.g. carry a second Contingency.
- Secondary caster. The easiest way is to take ranks in Use Magic Device (e.g. Loremaster has it as a class skill) and give it Wands and Scrolls. There is also Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability and similar to give it actual spells.

Improved Familiar

- Feat platform. Psychic Reformation enables changing the familiars' feats (DM may also allow retraining them or picking them on acquisition as it becomes intelligent). There are some good ones, though Mindsight stands on top of the heap; a telepathic Familiar can make for a powerful radar indeed combined with shapechanging magic (strong enough without).
- Various spell-likes. Imps and Quasits get Commune 1/week, for instance.
- Some familiars (e.g. Pathfinder Faerie Dragon) are low level casters themselves enabling the use of Wands without UMD, and Scrolls with mere caster level checks.
- Type shenanigans. Outsider familiars open up Outsider Alter Self/Polymorph forms straight-up, for instance. These can be used for combat (though be careful; you don't want to risk the familiar dying), utility or whatever as per usual. Share spells makes it rather economical to share e.g. Polymorph in combat provided you stay close (or have Familiar Spellbond).

[Pugwampy]

I am so glad Path Finder gave players an alternative option to familiars .
Not all of us want to play with or be responsible for "pets" nor do we want such dire consequences if it kicks the bucket .

[Boci]

I am so glad Path Finder gave players an alternative option to familiars .
Not all of us want to play with or be responsible for "pets" nor do we want such dire consequences if it kicks the bucket .

Um, 3.5 did to. Not all of the options to replace the familiar were that good, but if you primarily wanted to get rid of it then there were options for every wizard or sorceror.

[Pugwampy]

Really ? Which book was that ? I never came across anything more than some fancy magic container to stuff it in and safe in your backpack .

[ryu]

Really ? Which book was that ? I never came across anything more than some fancy magic container to stuff it in and safe in your backpack .

Alternative class features. Don't just get rid of it. Get something useful in return.

[Boci]

Really ? Which book was that ? I never came across anything more than some fancy magic container to stuff it in and safe in your backpack .

For specialist wizards, there's this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm
(though the necromancer one merely gives you a skeleton, so same problem potentially)

For generalist wizards the only one I can remember off the top of my head is from the dreaded Dragon - Dragon 348 specficially, arcane re-absorption.

[ryu]

For specialist wizards, there's this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm
(though the necromancer one merely gives you a skeleton, so same problem potentially)

For generalist wizards the only one I can remember off the top of my head is from the dreaded Dragon - Dragon 348 specficially, arcane re-absorption.

Pretty sure you could also trade it for an animal companion. I mean your sidekick is now pretending to be a fighter instead of a wizard so I consider it a downgrade, but it exists.

[Zaydos]

Just wanted to add that if you're using Polymorph (but not Shapechange) on your familiar it keeps any Supernatural qualities (and spell-like abilities) such as an Imp's DR 5/good... or... DR with an alignment (or magic) are Su, DR with a material (or /-) are Ex, and I can't actually recall for the life of me where, if anywhere, it says how DR 5/good or silver falls.

Also there's the question of whether a familiar's natural armor increase carries over (I've seen it ruled both ways).

And yes you can trade a familiar for an animal companion of a druid 1/2 your wizard level (min 1; Unearthed Arcana, should be on the SRD), good at 1st level, if you're an arcane hierophant and end up going into Mystic Theurge before or after, also lacks that whole XP thing and can be resummoned the next day instead of a year later :smallmad:

[ryu]

Just wanted to add that if you're using Polymorph (but not Shapechange) on your familiar it keeps any Supernatural qualities (and spell-like abilities) such as an Imp's DR 5/good... or... DR with an alignment (or magic) are Su, DR with a material (or /-) are Ex, and I can't actually recall for the life of me where, if anywhere, it says how DR 5/good or silver falls.

Also there's the question of whether a familiar's natural armor increase carries over (I've seen it ruled both ways).

And yes you can trade a familiar for an animal companion of a druid 1/2 your wizard level (min 1; Unearthed Arcana, should be on the SRD), good at 1st level, if you're an arcane hierophant and end up going into Mystic Theurge before or after, also lacks that whole XP thing and can be resummoned the next day instead of a year later :smallmad:

Yeah but the animal companion can't use wands or duplicate spells. They also can't give initiative buffs. Like I said it's a downgrade.

[Zaydos]

Yeah but the animal companion can't use wands or duplicate spells. They also can't give initiative buffs. Like I said it's a downgrade.

An arcane hierophant's familiar companion can, and makes you lose any familiar you have already, so if you're going Arcane Hierophant it's a buff. Also while they can't use wands, animal companions do have Share Spell, and there's a 1st party feat to increase the range to 30 ft so you can go double hydra without remaining adjacent to each other the whole time (which makes movement awkward).

Of course there's a Dragon Magazine Compendium feat to allow you to share spells from 1 mile away. Still if you aren't investing at all in your familiar it has its use.

Though I'd go with the Forlorn flaw if it was allowed.

[ryu]

An arcane hierophant's familiar companion can, and makes you lose any familiar you have already, so if you're going Arcane Hierophant it's a buff. Also while they can't use wands, animal companions do have Share Spell, and there's a 1st party feat to increase the range to 30 ft so you can go double hydra without remaining adjacent to each other the whole time (which makes movement awkward).

Of course there's a Dragon Magazine Compendium feat to allow you to share spells from 1 mile away. Still if you aren't investing at all in your familiar it has its use.

Though I'd go with the Forlorn flaw if it was allowed.

Didn't know they got share spell. That makes the option less bad than I thought. Still wouldn't do it, but it's less immediately noped. Again my favorite trick is to get double dweomer vortexes on the first round plus an actual opening spell. It's a good way of being The Worst Person in a low level caster fight.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can share spells with your familiar, bro-diddly. 12 heads is better than 7*.

*Example uses 6-headed hydras.Only if you and your familiar both are Large, Huge, or Gargantuan. You cannot polymorph into anything more than one size away from your own size, though I suppose you could keep casting polymorph (or alter self, I suppose) to get larger and larger forms so you end up Huge.

Metamorphosis and a psicrystal, on the other hand, don't have those restrictions.

[Beheld]

Only if you and your familiar both are Large, Huge, or Gargantuan. You cannot polymorph into anything more than one size away from your own size, though I suppose you could keep casting polymorph (or alter self, I suppose) to get larger and larger forms so you end up Huge.

Metamorphosis and a psicrystal, on the other hand, don't have those restrictions.

Those restrictions are your imagination based on an interpretation of the rules that results in absurdity.

By the same logic that claims that Alter Self size restrictions apply to polymorph, they would also apply to Polymorph Any Object, a spell which has Shrew to Manticore and Manticore to Shrew as explicit examples.

The correct interpretation of the spell is that it does not inherit arbitrary restrictions on what creature you can turn into.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Those restrictions are your imagination based on an interpretation of the rules that results in absurdity.

By the same logic that claims that Alter Self size restrictions apply to polymorph, they would also apply to Polymorph Any Object, a spell which has Shrew to Manticore and Manticore to Shrew as explicit examples.

The correct interpretation of the spell is that it does not inherit arbitrary restrictions on what creature you can turn into.I can quote RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) for my stance:


This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.


You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.Where in polymorph does it lift the restriction highlighted in alter self, above?

As far as polymorph any object goes, it, too, inherits the restriction. Maybe it's just a very large shrew, or a very small manticore.

[AnachroNinja]

Polymorph doesn't work that way, you're wrong.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Polymorph doesn't work that way, you're wrong.Who are you talking to, here? Because I outright quoted RAW, and it's very, very, very clear.

[Deophaun]

I can quote RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) for my stance:
Just to add to it:

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size.
So, shapechange thought it important enough to label the size range as a difference.

[Beheld]

I can quote RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) for my stance:



Where in polymorph does it lift the restriction highlighted in alter self, above?

As far as polymorph any object goes, it, too, inherits the restriction. Maybe it's just a very large shrew, or a very small manticore.

I can also quote RAW for my stance, it's called literally the same exact spelltext.

Your claim that "functions as alter self" "very, very, very clear[ly]" means that it inherits a size restriction isn't very clear. It's an interpretation that could be true, but it's not the only one by any stretch of the imagination, and the fact that Polymorph Any Object specifically describes what happens when you transform a tiny or diminutive creature into a Large one is evidence that your interpretation is incorrect.

"functions as X" doesn't mean "has all the same stipulations on legal transformations" because if it did, Polymorph also wouldn't let you turn into a 6HD thing, since Alter Self has a 5HD limit, and Polymorph has a 15HD limit, and by your logic, the second one just adds to the first one, because it doesn't say that it removes the restriction.

Or you know, you can realize that functions as X doesn't mean "inherits every single word of the spell text."

[AnachroNinja]

"You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine"

Edit for clarity: this replaces the size restriction from alter self.

[Deophaun]

Or you know, you can realize that functions as X doesn't mean "inherits every single word of the spell text."
That's pretty much exactly what "functions like" means, as there are several spells out there that are one sentence long, starting with "functions like X, except." They don't even get a full header.

Alarm, greater
Brilliant aura
Daze monster
Dragon ally
Energy surge

I could go on...


"You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine"

Edit for clarity: this replaces the size restriction from alter self.
How does a restriction translate to permission? If you cast the spell on a Fine-sized creature, you still can't make it smaller.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine"

Edit for clarity: this replaces the size restriction from alter self.Does it? Does it really? How? Alter self can apparently allow you to assume a form smaller than Fine, since that restriction isn't there. Polymorph, however, is even more restricted, because it can't do that.

Had the spell said something to the effect of, "You can assume any form with Hit Dice equal to or lesser than your caster level, between Fine and Colossal," then it would work. As it stands, polymorph basically reads, "The new form must be within one size category of the subject's normal size, but you can't cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine."

Adding more restrictions doesn't lift restrictions already in place.

[AnachroNinja]

Fine is the smallest size category in 3.5 therefore it is literally impossible for that to be an additional restriction. The only possible interpretation is that it is a replacement for the previous restriction.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Fine is the smallest size category in 3.5 therefore it is literally impossible for that to be an additional restriction. The only possible interpretation is that it is a replacement for the previous restriction.Or it's redundant and might as well not even be there, which is what actually happened when they added a pointless restriction without lifting the previous ones.

[Beheld]

Adding more restrictions doesn't lift restrictions already in place.

So your contention is that Polymorph can't be used to turn into a 6HD creature then?

[AnachroNinja]

That does seem to be where they are going with this

[Beheld]

That does seem to be where they are going with this

Never underestimate people's ability to doublethink away how THIS TIME adding a restriction implies erasing the previous restriction, but this other time when I don't want it to, it doesn't.

[Deophaun]

Fine is the smallest size category in 3.5 therefore it is literally impossible for that to be an additional restriction. The only possible interpretation is that it is a replacement for the previous restriction.
Nope. Please open your PHB to page 123 and look at the table "Armor for Unusual Creatures." Tell the class what the first entry on the table says.

So your contention is that Polymorph can't be used to turn into a 6HD creature then?
Oh, this is just...

The assumed form can't have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject's HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level
Alter self had a maximum of 5HD. This spell functions like alter self, except it has a maximum of 15.
Alter self kept you within one size category. This spell functions like alter self, except you can't go smaller than Fine.

Do you see how those act differently?

[AnachroNinja]

I'm limited to the SRD at the moment which stops at "Tiny" fit that, do you'll have to elaborate.

Also just to note, since the relevant text for druids does not provide any information on size I guess they can't actually wild shape into into larger forms either

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So your contention is that Polymorph can't be used to turn into a 6HD creature then?It couldn't...if it didn't explicitly say it can. Because it explicitly says it can. "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level." This lifts the previous restriction, and instead gives permission for the spell to act in this way. Meanwhile, it does not lift the size restrictions at all.

[AnachroNinja]

By your logic, no it doesn't. It establishes a NEW restriction without lifting the previous one because it didn't explicitly do so

[Beheld]

It couldn't...if it didn't explicitly say it can. Because it explicitly says it can. "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level." This lifts the previous restrgives permission for the spell to act in this way. Meanwhile, it does not lift the size restrictions.

Wait, so when I say "You can't punch me in the face" I'm giving you explicit permission to punch me in the nuts? I ask, because to literally anyone who can read what you just said is "This new restriction means the old restriction stops applying."


Alter self had a maximum of 5HD. This spell functions like alter self, except it has a maximum of 15.
Alter self kept you within one size category. This spell functions like alter self, except you can't go smaller than Fine.

Do you see how those act differently?

I see how both of those are examples of one spell providing restriction A, and then another spell providing restriction B.

Now, either:

1) Providing a new restriction always replaces old ones.
2) Providing a new restriction sometimes replaces old ones and we can talk about what kinds of ones do and what kind don't.
3) Providing a new restriction never does.

Now, it should be super obvious which one of those I think is the best reading, because it's the only one that's not super dumb, but it's also not the one being advocated by the people who don't want to let people Polymorph into Huge creatures.

[Big Fau]

Step 1: Become a Gish with Obtain Familiar (CArc).
Step 2: Learn some really good buffs.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!

Familiars share your BAB, so a build like Jade Phoenix Mage via Wu Jen entry or Abjurant Champion would result in a mighty minion worth fearing. You can also take Improved Familiar (CW) and get something stupid like a Guardian Construct familiar (crafted yourself, to boost the HD into the stratosphere). That's even more fun for you.


Wait, so when I say "You can't punch me in the face" I'm giving you explicit permission to punch me in the nuts? I ask, because to literally anyone who can read what you just said is "This new restriction means the old restriction stops applying."

There's a world of difference between "Not allowed to punch me" and "Not allowed to punch me in the face". Drop the polymorph discussion, you're using a completely different interpretation of the RAI than others.

[Deophaun]

I'm limited to the SRD at the moment which stops at "Tiny" fit that, do you'll have to elaborate.
OK, I'll elaborate.

Buy the book.

Alternatively, ask yourself what the size of a light weapon for a Tiny creature is. That's in the SRD.

[AnachroNinja]

You are aware that Fine is two size categories smaller then tiny? It's called out as the size category for bacteria...

[Deophaun]

You are aware that Fine is two size categories smaller then tiny?
Well well, you know the rule. Now, what's the next step?

[AnachroNinja]

Weapons aren't creatures, in no way is the size of a weapon related to size categories for creatures. Your ignorance of the rules makes your condescension quite amusing.

Edit: I'll even do you one better. Open your monster manual and tell me what the stat adjustments are for creatures smaller then fine. Don't worry, I'll wait.

[Deophaun]

Weapons aren't creatures, in no way is the size of a weapon related to size categories for creatures. Your ignorance of the rules makes your condescension quite amusing.

A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
This is fun. You're fun.

[AnachroNinja]

I refer you to the words "In general" which is a explicit indication that there are exceptions. Either find a specific instance of as size smaller then fine, or kill yourself. Your move.

[Beheld]

This is fun. You're fun.

"In General" means there are exceptions. Maybe you are describing one.

[Deophaun]

"In General" means there are exceptions. Maybe you are describing one.
Ah, but we know exceptions don't overwrite the rules. Otherwise, you wouldn't be limited to 5HD creatures with polymorph.

[Beheld]

Ah, but we know exceptions don't overwrite the rules. Otherwise, you wouldn't be limited to 5HD creatures with polymorph.

That is a weird thing to say, on several levels. Firstly of course, you seem to be trying to make an argument from absurdity against your own position, which is weird. But also you are misunderstanding what the difference between a rule with an exception is (IE, you can do X, it provokes an AoO. Feat Y says you don't provoke if you have the feat.) and a rule (guideline?) that specifically says it doesn't always apply.

If a rule says "sometimes X is true" then you have literally no ground to stand on arguing that because X is always true it follows Y. You cited a rule that says sometimes X is true, and tried to use that proof that because X is always true, Y must also be true.

[AnachroNinja]

I'm not sure you know what exceptions mean.

You know Beheld, in the past we've usually been in the opposite side of debates. I'm gonna take our agreement as a sign, declare victory and leave the squabbling masses to their nonsense. Some people just cling to their beliefs out of desperate fear of being wrong. So good day to you sir. Enjoy your evening.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Wait, so when I say "You can't punch me in the face" I'm giving you explicit permission to punch me in the nuts? I ask, because to literally anyone who can read what you just said is "This new restriction means the old restriction stops applying.""You can't punch me in the face" does not prevent me from punching you in the nuts, no. "You can't punch me in the nuts, either" does not prevent me from punching you in the kidney.

However, that's not what this is. Alter self is saying, "You can't punch me at all," while polymorph is saying, "You can't punch me in the face, either." Just because you can't punch it in the face doesn't lift the restriction of allowing you to punch it anywhere at all.

[Deophaun]

That is a weird thing to say, on several levels. Firstly of course, you seem to be trying to make an argument from absurdity against your own position, which is weird. But also you are misunderstanding what the difference between a rule with an exception is (IE, you can do X, it provokes an AoO. Feat Y says you don't provoke if you have the feat.) and a rule (guideline?) that specifically says it doesn't always apply.

If a rule says "sometimes X is true" then you have literally no ground to stand on arguing that because X is always true it follows Y. You cited a rule that says sometimes X is true, and tried to use that proof that because X is always true, Y must also be true.
Nope. You have a choice by your own arguments:

1)My position is silly because we limit polymorph to 5HD creatures, yet there are creatures two sizes smaller than Fine, so the size restriction is meaningful. This is the "no exceptions" version.
2)My position does not limit polymorph to 5HD and there are no creatures two sizes smaller than Fine. This is the "there are exceptions" version.

You can choose one, but you must choose. My argument only appears at cross purposes because your arguments at at cross purposes. This where you pick one.

[Beheld]

"You can't punch me in the face" does not prevent me from punching you in the nuts, no. "You can't punch me in the nuts, either" does not prevent me from punching you in the kidney.

However, that's not what this is. Alter self is saying, "You can't punch me at all," while polymorph is saying, "You can't punch me in the face, either." Just because you can't punch it in the face doesn't lift the restriction of allowing you to punch it anywhere at all.

So you agree that Polymorph can't be used to turn into a 6HD creature?

Since you can't turn into a creature with more than 5HD, and you also can't turn into a creature with more than 15HD either, so just because you can't turn into a creature with more than 15HD, that doesn't lift the restriction that you can't turn into a creature with more than 5HD.


Nope. You have a choice by your own arguments:

1)My position is silly because we limit polymorph to 5HD creatures, yet there are creatures two sizes smaller than Fine, so the size restriction is meaningful. This is the "no exceptions" version.
2)My position does not limit polymorph to 5HD and there are no creatures two sizes smaller than Fine. This is the "there are exceptions" version.

You can choose one, but you must choose. My argument only appears at cross purposes because your arguments at at cross purposes. This where you pick one.

None of this follows from anything I said at any point.

1) Your position is silly because it limits Polymorph to 5HD, that is indeed silly. In that circumstance, I don't care what size categories exist or don't exist, because you can only Polymorph (or Polymorph Any Object) into creatures within one size category.

2) If your position does not limit Polymorph to 5HD, then it also does not limit Polymorph to within one size category, so you can polymorph into anything larger than Fine, and it still doesn't matter if there are size categories smaller than fine or not.

B) All of this is moot, because you still are claiming that "Sometimes X is true" is proof that "X is always true" which is still a completely wrongheaded thing to claim that has nothing to do with whether "exceptions" override other things.
C) "You cannot turn into a creature with more than 15HD" is not an exception to not being able to turn into a creature with more than 5HD. If it was, that would really play havok with when you cast Polymorph on a 5HD creature.

[Deophaun]

1) Your position is silly because it limits Polymorph to 5HD, that is indeed silly. In that circumstance, I don't care what size categories exist or don't exist, because you can only Polymorph (or Polymorph Any Object) into creatures within one size category.
But in order for you to declare that my position limits Polymorph to 5HD, you must affirmatively declare that there are at least two size categories beneath Fine. There either are exceptions, or there are not.

2) If your position does not limit Polymorph to 5HD, then it also does not limit Polymorph to within one size category, so you can polymorph into anything larger than Fine, and it still doesn't matter if there are size categories smaller than fine or not.
Nope. Because polymorph discusses changing into creatures that are greater than 5HD, yet it never discusses changing into creatures that are more than one size category removed. One of these is an exception. The other is not. Meanwhile, as you continue to ignore, shapechange prominently displays its wide range of available sizes as an exception to the rules of polymorph.

[Big Fau]

So you agree that Polymorph can't be used to turn into a 6HD creature?

Since you can't turn into a creature with more than 5HD, and you also can't turn into a creature with more than 15HD either, so just because you can't turn into a creature with more than 15HD, that doesn't lift the restriction that you can't turn into a creature with more than 5HD.



None of this follows from anything I said at any point.

1) Your position is silly because it limits Polymorph to 5HD, that is indeed silly. In that circumstance, I don't care what size categories exist or don't exist, because you can only Polymorph (or Polymorph Any Object) into creatures within one size category.

2) If your position does not limit Polymorph to 5HD, then it also does not limit Polymorph to within one size category, so you can polymorph into anything larger than Fine, and it still doesn't matter if there are size categories smaller than fine or not.

B) All of this is moot, because you still are claiming that "Sometimes X is true" is proof that "X is always true" which is still a completely wrongheaded thing to claim that has nothing to do with whether "exceptions" override other things.
C) "You cannot turn into a creature with more than 15HD" is not an exception to not being able to turn into a creature with more than 5HD. If it was, that would really play havok with when you cast Polymorph on a 5HD creature.

It is possible to ignore a minimum without ignoring a maximum, and vice versa. The RAW isn't 100% accurate due to faulty editing.

[Beheld]

But in order for you to declare that my position limits Polymorph to 5HD, you must affirmatively declare that there are at least two size categories beneath Fine. There either are exceptions, or there are not.

No, I don't because again, when the rules say "sometimes X" I don't have to admit that always X for anything, because the rules don't say that.

And again, "You cannot turn into a creature with 16HD" is not an exception to the rule that you cannot turn into a creature with 6HD. That's a restriction. Which is not the same thing as an exception, no matter how much you refuse to understand that.


Nope. Because polymorph discusses changing into creatures that are greater than 5HD, yet it never discusses changing into creatures that are more than one size category removed. One of these is an exception. The other is not.

Polymorph does not discuss turning into creature with greater than 5HD at any point. It says you can't turn into creatures in circumstance X. Which is in many ways literally the exact opposite of saying you can turn into creatures in circumstance Y.

Again Neither the size restriction nor the HD restriction is Polymorph is an "exception" to anything, because that is not what exception means. They are both restrictions.


Meanwhile, as you continue to ignore, shapechange prominently displays its wide range of available sizes as an exception to the rules of polymorph.

So does Polymorph Any Object and Polymorph. So maybe you should work on that argument.


It is possible to ignore a minimum without ignoring a maximum, and vice versa. The RAW isn't 100% accurate due to faulty editing.

To Quote myself from earlier:


I see how both of those are examples of one spell providing restriction A, and then another spell providing restriction B.

Now, either:

1) Providing a new restriction always replaces old ones.
2) Providing a new restriction sometimes replaces old ones and we can talk about what kinds of ones do and what kind don't.
3) Providing a new restriction never does.

Now, it should be super obvious which one of those I think is the best reading, because it's the only one that's not super dumb, but it's also not the one being advocated by the people who don't want to let people Polymorph into Huge creatures.

Now, we could absolutely have a talk about whether restriction B is meant to imply that restriction A no longer applies. But that requires first admitting that restrictions can imply that some other restriction no longer applies, something that one side of the argument refuses to do, because their case in that argument is pathetically weak, and so they'd rather stick to claiming that no restriction can ever imply that a previous restriction doesn't apply.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So you agree that Polymorph can't be used to turn into a 6HD creature?The exact opposite, actually, as I mentioned above. Polymorph explicitly lifts the restrictions on 5 HD, as it grants permission to turn into creatures of up to 15 HD (limited by your CL and the subject's HD). The "as alter self except as noted here" line makes this an explicit exception to the rules of alter self. "You can't turn into forms smaller than Fine" in no way invalidates "You can't take forms more than one size category away from yours," since you can have both be true at the same time. The same can't be said for "you can turn into 15 HD creatures" and the previous 5 HD restriction on alter self. The size thing doesn't lift the former restriction, while the HD thing explicitly does.


Since you can't turn into a creature with more than 5HD,Uh, yes you can. I've already proven that you can. Explicitly. As mentioned in polymorph itself. So this part of your argument (such as it is) is invalid.


and you also can't turn into a creature with more than 15HD either,This part is correct.


so just because you can't turn into a creature with more than 15HD, that doesn't lift the restriction that you can't turn into a creature with more than 5HD.You CAN turn into a creature with more than 15 HD, because polymorph says so. So this is wrong.

Basically, polymorph outright says that it lifts the HD restrictions and imposes its own. It does not, however, lift the size restriction. It doesn't say, explicitly or implicitly, that it does. And it does, in fact, add an additional restriction to alter self's restriction -- that being "Smaller than Fine."

Can you not visualize the difference between "lift a restriction" and "add even more restrictions"?

[AnachroNinja]

Man, I can't stay away, I tried.

Quote the part of polymorph that says you explicitly can change into creatures greater then 5 HD, I dare you.

[InvisibleBison]

About the polymorph/alter self rules inheritance:

The PHB, on page 181, lays out the rules for spell chains. Of particular interest is this line: "Only information about a spell elsewhere in the spell chain that is different from the base spell is covered in the spell being described."

Alter Self has a size restriction and a HD restriction. Polymorph also has a size restriction and a HD restriction. Due to the above quote, the presence of these two rules in polymorph means that the rules from alter self are not being inherited.

At least, that's how I see it.

[Deophaun]

No, I don't because again, when the rules say "sometimes X" I don't have to admit that always X for anything, because the rules don't say that.
So then my argument does not preclude polymorph allowing you to turn into a 15 HD monster. Good.

And again, "You cannot turn into a creature with 16HD" is not an exception to the rule that you cannot turn into a creature with 6HD. That's a restriction. Which is not the same thing as an exception, no matter how much you refuse to understand that.
That might be a problem if polymorph said that. But, it said something else:

The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level
Question: what's the maximum speed anything in the universe can attain? Is "100x the speed of light" correct? Is "1/5th the speed of light" correct? Or is there only one answer, and not a boundary layer where everything below or above becomes true?

Polymorph does not discuss turning into creature with greater than 5HD at any point.
Yes it does, where I just quoted.

So does Polymorph Any Object and Polymorph. So maybe you should work on that argument.
No. Nowhere does polymorph state " enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature... from Fine to Colossal size." Simply not there. That's a lie.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Man, I can't stay away, I tried.

Quote the part of polymorph that says you explicitly can change into creatures greater then 5 HD, I dare you."The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level." Note that it raises the maximum to 15 HD. Explicitly. As I've been saying this whole time.

Not much of a challenge, since I've quoted it already.

[edit] Ninja'd, albeit by someone quoting an entirely different post.

[Big Fau]

Can you not visualize the difference between "lift a restriction" and "add even more restrictions"?

Not likely. He's hard-ground into a form of rules lawyer that doesn't look at how every language has so many different interpretations of the same text.

[AnachroNinja]

"The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level." Note that it raises the maximum to 15 HD. Explicitly. As I've been saying this whole time.

Not much of a challenge, since I've quoted it already.

That quote tells me what I CAN'T do, which is assume a form with HD higher then my caster level. It then provides an additional restriction, stating that it can't exceed 15 regardless of my caster level. AT NO POINT does it actually state that I CAN change up a form higher then 5 HD

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not likely. He's hard-ground into a form of rules lawyer that doesn't look at how every language has so many different interpretations of the same text.There's really no other way to interpret the text. He's just not interpreting it at all.

[Beheld]

The exact opposite, actually, as I mentioned above. Polymorph explicitly lifts the restrictions on 5 HD, as it grants permission to turn into creatures of up to 15 HD (limited by your CL and the subject's HD).

But Polymorph explicitly says you can turn into any creature of any size category without relation to your own!

Oh wait, I can lie about the text of the spell too, maybe you should stop doing that. As has been pointed out by literally everyone who can read, Polymorph does not explicitly grant permission to turn into creatures with 7HD. It imposes a restriction that prevents you from turning into forms with 16 or more HD. You are claiming that by imposing this restriction, the Polymorph spell implicitly meant that the old restriction no longer applies. And I agree, it is obviously supposed to be the case that this restriction implies that no other restrictions apply.

But that doesn't change the fact that it is still a restriction which is obviating other restrictions, not a grant of permission.


while the HD thing explicitly does.

Except that it doesn't. Maybe you should look up the word explicitly in the dictionary or something?

Uh, yes you can. I've already proven that you can. Explicitly. As mentioned in polymorph itself. So this part of your argument (such as it is) is invalid.


You CAN turn into a creature with more than 15 HD, because polymorph says so. So this is wrong.

I guess we are right back to you not being able to read. Damn every time I think I have figured out which words you can't read, you prove that it really is all of them.


Basically, polymorph outright says that it lifts the HD restrictions and imposes its own. It does not, however, lift the size restriction. It doesn't say, explicitly or implicitly, that it does. And it does, in fact, add an additional restriction to alter self's restriction -- that being "Smaller than Fine."

Can you not visualize the difference between "lift a restriction" and "add even more restrictions"?

Again, as has been told to you literally since this first came up. Polymorph does not say that it lifts the HD restriction, it imposes it's own. Also known as adding a restriction. You may claim that implicitly was meant to replace the previous restriction, but people can claim the same thing about the size restriction.

Now, obviously nothing can stop you from claiming that Polymorph explicitly removes the restriction it never once mentions and definitely doesn't explicitly remove, but that doesn't change the fact that it certainly doesn't do that, so if you want to be taken seriously, please stop.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That quote tells me what I CAN'T do, which is assume a form with HD higher then my caster level. It then provides an additional restriction, stating that it can't exceed 15 regardless of my caster level. AT NO POINT does it actually state that I CAN change up a form higher then 5 HDYou might want to reread that again, because it is explicitly saying the maximum is 15 HD. It says so. Right there.

[Beheld]

Not likely. He's hard-ground into a form of rules lawyer that doesn't look at how every language has so many different interpretations of the same text.

Again, this is rich, since I'm literally arguing that we need to look at the context of when restrictions are meant to replace others, and he is arguing that no restriction can ever implicitly remove another restriction. Which is of course why he has to keep claiming it explicitly removes a restriction that it never mentions.

In other words, you agreed with the person that says there is only one correct interpretation and disagreed with the person saying there are multiple interpretation, because the person talking about multiple interpretations is incapable of considering multiple interpretations.

[AnachroNinja]

The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level."

No, the maximum is a qualifier directed at the noun phrase "caster level". Moreover, all it actually does, is tell you what the maximum is at any given caster level. Let's simplify the language.

The assumed form can't have more hit dice then your caster level. The maximum caster level applicable is 15. Therefore regardless of a caster level over 15, you are restricted to 15HD.

It does not say you can turn into a creature with HD equal to or less then your caster level to a maximum of 15. It says you CAN'T turn into a creature with HD higher then your caster level, to a maximum of 15.

This is the difference between restrictive and permissive statements.

[Big Fau]

Again, this is rich, since I'm literally arguing that we need to look at the context of when restrictions are meant to replace others, and he is arguing that no restriction can ever implicitly remove another restriction. Which is of course why he has to keep claiming it explicitly removes a restriction that it never mentions.

In other words, you agreed with the person that says there is only one correct interpretation and disagreed with the person saying there are multiple interpretation, because the person talking about multiple interpretations is incapable of considering multiple interpretations.

Why does the spell have three different maximums? Answer that. Its either target's HD (when cast on someone else), 5, or 15.

Secondly, what is the definition of maximum?


1. The greatest quantity or amount possible, assignable, allowable, etc.
2. The highest amount, value, or degree attained or recorded.
3. An upper limit allowed or allowable by law or regulation.

At what point is 5 any of those over 15?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

But Polymorph explicitly says you can turn into any creature of any size category without relation to your own!Where? Quote it. I'll wait.


Oh wait, I can lie about the text of the spell too, maybe you should stop doing that.You just did, actually. It's there in the sentence I just quoted at the beginning of this post.


As has been pointed out by literally everyone who can read, Polymorph does not explicitly grant permission to turn into creatures with 7HD."...to a maximum of 15 HD." Yes. Yes it does.


It imposes a restriction that prevents you from turning into forms with 16 or more HD.It restricts you from going above your CL and HD, and then says the maximum is 15. "Everyone who can read," huh?


You are claiming that by imposing this restriction, the Polymorph spell implicitly meant that the old restriction no longer applies. And I agree, it is obviously supposed to be the case that this restriction implies that no other restrictions applyThe restriction mentioned is for your HD and CL, and then it sets the new maximum at 15. Like I've been saying the whole time.


But that doesn't change the fact that it is still a restriction which is obviating other restrictions, not a grant of permission.It resets the maximum to 15, like it says in the text. So yes, it's restricting you. To 15. It's also granting you the ability to take forms with up to 15 HD, since it says the new maximum is 15.


Except that it doesn't. Maybe you should look up the word explicitly in the dictionary or something?Since it's right there in the text, and explicitly means, "Precisely and clearly communicated or readily observable; leaving nothing to implication," which is exactly what it does, I don't see how I'm misusing the word. I'm using exactly the word I mean, exactly how I mean it.


Uh, yes you can. I've already proven that you can. Explicitly. As mentioned in polymorph itself. So this part of your argument (such as it is) is invalid.I'm no less right than I was earlier, you know.


I guess we are right back to you not being able to read. Damn every time I think I have figured out which words you can't read, you prove that it really is all of them.Really? Because the text still says the new maximum is 15. And I'm the one who can't read?


Again, as has been told to you literally since this first came up. Polymorph does not say that it lifts the HD restriction, it imposes it's own. Also known as adding a restriction. You may claim that implicitly was meant to replace the previous restriction, but people can claim the same thing about the size restriction."...to a maximum of 15 HD." That's where it says it.


Now, obviously nothing can stop you from claiming that Polymorph explicitly removes the restriction it never once mentions and definitely doesn't explicitly remove, but that doesn't change the fact that it certainly doesn't do that, so if you want to be taken seriously, please stop.Stop what? Quoting the text to you, where it says, quite clearly, that the new maximum is 15 HD?

[Deophaun]

No, the maximum is a qualifier directed at the noun phrase "caster level".
What? A caster level of 15 HD? That's like saying a football field has a length of 1000 Skoville units.

[AnachroNinja]

It tells you that the restriction caps at 15HD at caster level 15. Although actually from a technical standpoint it doesn't even say that because it doesn't specify caster level at all in the secondary phrase. An argument could be made that as long as you are not level 15, the restriction is whatever your caster level is, with no additional limits.



....or we can assume that the 15 is a reference to the previously mentioned restriction based on caster level rather then a standalone statement.

[Beheld]

Why does the spell have three different maximums? Answer that. Its either target's HD (when cast on someone else), 5, or 15.

Secondly, what is the definition of maximum?



At what point is 5 any of those over 15?

Look, if you can't be bothered to read anything I've said in this thread, I don't know why you expect to be able to have a conversation with me.

1) There are multiple ways to read Polymorph.
2) One way is that it doesn't inherit restrictions from Alter Self at all.
3) Another way is that it does inherit restrictions from Alter Self.
4) If you believe 3, then there are multiple restrictions in Alter Self that are never inherited.
5) If you believe 4, then there you can argue that either only express revokation removes the restriction, in which case Polymorph cannot be used to turn into a 6HD creature (Which renders a restriction in Polymorph pointless). This alone is a great reason to not interpret that way. Or you can argue that other restrictions implicitly revoke restrictions from Alter Self.
6) Once you have accepted 5, and no sooner, you can argue that the size restrictions in Polymorph either do or do not implicitly revoke the restrictions from Alter Self.

At no point in any of my argument does the definition of maximum become a gotcha.

[Beheld]

Where? Quote it. I'll wait.

You just did, actually. It's there in the sentence I just quoted at the beginning of this post.

I really should have realized that English isn't your first language and not gone for sarcasm. My mistake. Let me spell it out for you:

Since no where in the spell does it explicitly say that you can turn into a creature with more than 5HD, and any literate person can see that, but you just claimed it does say that, I choose to make an equally false claim, and then suggest that you stop lying about the text of the spell, since obviously doing so would get us nowhere.


Really? Because the text still says the new maximum is 15. And I'm the one who can't read?

You literally said that you can turn into something with more than 15HD. You apparently can't even write what you yourself wrote.


"...to a maximum of 15 HD." Yes. Yes it does.

...

"...to a maximum of 15 HD." That's where it says it.

Stop what? Quoting the text to you, where it says, quite clearly, that the new maximum is 15 HD?

Hmm... I wonder why you keep deliberately cutting out a huge portion of the sentence. Could it be because it completely undermines your entire argument? Let's go see the beginning of that sentence to find out:

"The assumed form can’t have more"

So when you said, for example, this: "Polymorph explicitly... grants permission to turn into creatures of up to 15 HD"

Would you say that is backed up by Polymorph saying you can't turn into creatures with 16HD?

If I said "You can't punch me in the face" would you describe that as granting permission, or perhaps some kind of .... restriction?

Spoiler alert as has always and forever been the case since before this thread existed, Polymorph does not explicitly grant permission to turn into creatures with more than 5 HD, it imposes a restriction that you cannot turn into creatures with more than 15HD, which implicitly implies that you can turn into creatures up to 15HD, either by implicitly revoking the restriction from alter self, or because Polymorph just doesn't inherit the restriction from Alter Self, and the explicit limit implies that the transformation not violating that limit are acceptable.

[Deophaun]

Since no where in the spell does it explicitly say that you can turn into a creature with more than 5HD, and any literate person can see that
And no where in alter self does it explicitly say that you can turn into a creature with more than 1 HD. It just assigns a maximum. Then polymorph says that it's like alter self, except there's a 15 HD maximum.

So, it seems we're right back to there being two size categories below Fine with you.

[Elkad]

So to skip past this polymorph argument...


So I'm checking some caster builds and people actively suggest to use your familiar in combat to deliver spells or for flanking. XP-loss on familiar death aside, with half the hp of a caster (which are low enough already) and usually crappy AC, wouldn't it be killed instantly? Even if I didn't switch the familiar for a flashy ACF and had it stand on my shoulder and out of harm's way, a well-placed fireball would still burn it to cinders.
I'm aware that there are feats that improve your familiar somewhat, but why not some metamagic feats instead? So I'm asking, how do you guys use your familiars in combat?

First, go read the Familiar Handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.qa/2011/08/familiars-handbook.html).

"crappy AC". Lets assume you want to deliver touch spells, so you take a fast-flying hawk. At first level, it has AC18, possibly better than anyone in the party. At 3rd level it's gained another point of natural armor, and you've either bought it masterwork studded, or cast a 2nd Mage Armor on it, so AC22 or AC23. If you cast Mirror Image (which means you can risk getting in melee range vs most things), it may be sharing that as well.

If you want to blow a feat and Dragon Compendium is open, Enspell Familiar is the one you want. Familiar is considered touching you as long as it is within 1 mile. Now it gets ALL your buffs, all the time.

Swapping it for an ACF. Yup, do it. And then buy your familiar back at 3rd level with Obtain Familiar. It's mechanically better that way anyway, as now it keeps gaining effectiveness from all your arcane caster levels, even PRCs or stuff that doesn't normally get a familiar like Duskblade.

And then there are Improved Familiars. Darkstalker Imps, Mindsight Pseudodragons, etc...

[LudicSavant]

So I'm checking some caster builds and people actively suggest to use your familiar in combat to deliver spells or for flanking. XP-loss on familiar death aside, with half the hp of a caster (which are low enough already) and usually crappy AC, wouldn't it be killed instantly? Even if I didn't switch the familiar for a flashy ACF and had it stand on my shoulder and out of harm's way, a well-placed fireball would still burn it to cinders.
I'm aware that there are feats that improve your familiar somewhat, but why not some metamagic feats instead? So I'm asking, how do you guys use your familiars in combat?

Before we even talk about anything like familiar-boosting feats...

Share spells is good. For example, if you cast the first level spell Light of Lunia, you can essentially double the damage output by sharing it to your familiar (doing 4d6-8d6 damage).

The spell compendium spell "Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability" allows your familiar to cast up to 5th level spells.

Extra actions in general are good. Your familiar can even become a skill monkey in some cases (including skills like UMD).

Also, any given specific familiar grants you a bonus. Some of these bonuses are pretty good.

[A.A.King]

Improved Familiars make for great mounts.

Enlarge Person + Share Spell + Hippogriff Familiar = Epic Wizard Lancer.

Also, with Mountain Combat, Share'd Greater Mirror Image and Greater Blinking, your familiar mount won't be getting hit.

[MirddinEmris]

There is also nice spell from SpC called Chain of Eyes. It's 1hr/lvl spell that allows you to switch perception with this creature as free action, it makes a great scout out of familiar, but also can be used in battle to bypass "line of sight" in combat if you place your familiar somewhere else than you, like 60ft above the battlefield

[MaxiDuRaritry]

To close out the off-topic polymorph "debate," I'm just going to let Beheld's and AnachroNinja's arguments speak for themselves. They'll do better at convincing everyone of the truth of the matter than my arguments ever could.

Take that as you will.

[ryu]

To close out the off-topic polymorph "debate," I'm just going to let Beheld's and AnachroNinja's arguments speak for themselves. They'll do better at convincing everyone of the truth of the matter than my arguments ever could.

Take that as you will.

Yeah. That you're wrong.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah. That you're wrong.Sure. Whatever you say. Peace is war, war is peace, Big Brother loves you, etc.

[Odin's Eyepatch]

Some familiars get scent or other exotic senses, and since they are intelligent, it is a lot easier to ask them for information about what THEY can detect. I'm playing a wizard with a rat, and I usually always ask my familiar to sniff out an area of interest, to see what additional clues we can find.

They also can assist you in anything you do (within reason) due to the fact that they share your skills. Failed your search check? Let the familiar try. Keeping watch? An extra pair of eyes/ears/nose/other is always handy.

As said previously, familiars can use items, and pearls of speech are a thing, so they can even speak with you and activate command word items. Having a familiar with just a belt of healing can give you a small amount of healing every round. Action economy is key.

For familiar protection, there is Familiar Pocket, a spell that turns your pocket into an extra dimensional space, where your familiar can get whisked inside as a free action (if it is within 5 feet of you). They never specify the pocket, so just create a small minuscule fold in your undergarments, and your familiar has a secret hiding space almost impossible to find.

A trick that I'm willing to try is using a familiar to disarm somebody.

Cast True Strike and share the spell with your familiar. Your familiar's next attack gains a +20 insight bonus. Disarming is an attack role. Even with the strength/size/unarmed penalties, at low level, you can still have a decent attempt at disarming a surprised enemy in the first round. Sure, it is very situational and may not be the best course of action, but it sounds cool enough to try at least once :smallamused:

Bonus points if you rule that a magic item (weapon or other) shrinks to the current user's size. More points if you are standing within 5 feet of your familiar, with the aforementioned "Familiar Pocket" spell. The familiar and the item can be whisked right into a safe, unobtainable space with the magic item as a free action.

...

Yes, it is VERY situational, but wizards are supposed to prepare for every eventuality, so :smallbiggrin:

[Âmesang]

My longest running character has had various sorcerer-based builds over the years, but one thing that's always remained constant is having a familiar; first a snake/fiendish snake, and most recently a quasit.

I had considered replacing it with the Forlorn flaw… but I just couldn't do it. Yeah, it can be a liability, but she just felt so hollow without lil Fi'jit around; granted, I think part of that is this odd desire to take everything that a sorcerer/archmage can do and improve upon it—i.e., having an Improved Familiar, Improved Counterspell/mastery of counterspelling, Craft (alchemy) (with Master of Poisons and, eventually, Augmented Alchemy and Epic Poisoncrafter), as well as being a well-rounded spellcaster.

(Yeah, I'm essentially optimizing all of the wrong things to create a "super sorcerer," but at the same time there's something wholesome to me about a sorcerer that can do a lot of things fairly well instead of just focusing on one aspect; it's the same reason why I'd want a fighter that does more than just swing a weapon.)

With that said Fi'jit, at least while in quasit form, has an AC of 36 compared to her 23 (16th-level character, assuming they're sharing the same spells), with some solid saves (Fort +10, Ref +14, Will +18—higher than her Will!), plus being a quasit it's got spell-like abilities, can fly, can speak, can manipulate things (like wands via Use Magic Device), and it feels good having a partner in crime… especially since, as it's wiser than she, it can act as a sort of "straight man" against her Machiavellian/delusions-of-grandeur type of personality.

(After all, where would Jafar be without Iago?)

Of course the whole polymorph debacle makes me wonder how that would react to Fi'jit's alternate forms; like, while in wolf-shape (Medium), would he be limited to his normal restrictions (Diminutive/Tiny/Small) or those of his new form (Small/Medium/Large)? With regards to HD limitations I can't help but look at it like a computer program, with alter self having the variable "$HDmax = 5" while polymorph overrides it with "$HDmax = 15".

…otherwise what would be the point of even mentioning it?

[dascarletm]

Superman is just like batman except he is an alien. Superman can fly and shoot lasers out of his eyes... etc.

"Woah Woah Woah! Batman cannot fly or shoot lasers out of his eyes. Superman must not be able to as well."
:smalltongue:

[bean illus]

- Minor bonuses: 3 HP on level 1 can be nice, as can any of the skill or save bonuses. You also get Alertness for both of you. Better bonuses such as Hummingbird's Initiative exist elsewhere, and Elven Wizards can double the bonus on level 3.
- Secondary perception rolls, complete with additional senses: Bat has Blindsense for instance. As familiar has your skill ranks, it can Aid Another you with almost anything, as well as give you second rolls for almost anything.

Share spells makes it rather economical to share . . . . . provided you stay close (or have Familiar Spellbond).

Q: What kind of build would use a familiar with a skill monkey? Facto-melion? any other ideas? If it looks fun i might start a thread on skill monkey with familiar. ??

[Troacctid]

Q: What kind of build would use a familiar with a skill monkey? Facto-melion? any other ideas? If it looks fun i might start a thread on skill monkey with familiar. ??
Beguiler, bard, savant, spellthief, unseen seer—essentially any skill monkey with an arcane caster level. (Not factotums, since they aren't arcane.)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Beguiler, bard, savant, spellthief, unseen seer—essentially any skill monkey with an arcane caster level. (Not factotums, since they aren't arcane.)A dip into any arcane casting class (including chameleon) would qualify a factotum for Obtain Familiar, however. There are several ways to gain +1 or +2 CLs from CL boosters, if you only want a single- or double-level dip. Factotum X/chameleon 2 with an orange ioun stone would do it, for instance (and is quite a popular choice among factotum enthusiasts).

[Willie the Duck]

Really ? Which book was that ? I never came across anything more than some fancy magic container to stuff it in and safe in your backpack .

I am rather fond of the Immediate Magic: Abrupt Jaunt ability that Conjurers can get instead of a familiar (PHBII P. 70), although I consider it crazy cheesy. It makes surviving 1st level a lot easier. 1/day per int bonus, you can teleport 10' as an immediate action (i.e. in response to being attacked). My current build "Early bird battle wizard" took feats: point blank shot and precise shot, ACFs: Focused Specialist (Conjuration, barred schools evocation, necromancy, enchantment), Domain Granted Power – creation (conjuration spells +2 SL) by giving up scribe scroll (for now), and Immediate Magic (Abrupt Jaunt) – Teleport 10 Int bonus x/day as immediate action by giving up familiar. He started out casting 6 1st level spells/day, 3 of them 2d8 lesser orbs, greases, or benign transposition, avoiding 4 attacks, and basically being a better ranged opponent than the archer (and then using his crossbow to good effect when he ran out of rays.


To close out the off-topic polymorph "debate," I'm just going to let Beheld's and AnachroNinja's arguments speak for themselves. They'll do better at convincing everyone of the truth of the matter than my arguments ever could.

No dude, ... just no. You all stunk up this joint and you are all walking away smelling horrible for it. No exceptions. I feel gross and ashamed to be a 3e D&D fan specifically because of the three of you and this failure of adulthood. Don't try and pretend you get to get out of here with your head held high. None of you do.

[Troacctid]

A dip into any arcane casting class (including chameleon) would qualify a factotum for Obtain Familiar, however. There are several ways to gain +1 or +2 CLs from CL boosters, if you only want a single- or double-level dip. Factotum X/chameleon 2 with an orange ioun stone would do it, for instance (and is quite a popular choice among factotum enthusiasts).
Not including chameleon. Chameleon does not qualify you for an arcane caster level, since your aptitude focus doesn't count.


You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.

[Segev]

To close out the off-topic polymorph "debate," I'm just going to let Beheld's and AnachroNinja's arguments speak for themselves. They'll do better at convincing everyone of the truth of the matter than my arguments ever could.

Take that as you will.

Oddly, it wasn't until I came back to this page and saw your name again that I realized you meant their arguments would disprove themselves. Because yeah, their arguments are quite solid.

Their points are that you can either claim that:

1) The restrictions in polymorph that are more lenient than the restrictions in alter self actively replace the restrictions in alter self, or

2) The restrictions in polymorph that are more lenient than the restrictions in alter self do not actively replace the restrictions in alter self.

In case (1), there is no need to explicitly say that you no longer are restricted to 5 HD, nor to "within one size category" of the original form. The "to a maximum of your CL or 15 HD, whichever is less" clause replaces the "to a maximum of 5 HD" clause implicitly, and the "no smaller than Fine" clause replaces the "within one size category" clause.

In case (2), the lack of explicit declaration that the "no greater than 15 HD" clause replaces the "no greater than 5 HD" clause means that you cannot use polymorph to become any creature with more than 5 HD nor can you become any creature with more than 15 HD (whichever is lower), and the lack of explicit declaration means that the "no smaller than Fine" clause replaces the "within one size category" clause means that you cannot assume the form of any creature that is not within one size category, and in any event no smaller than Fine.


You can have case (1) or case (2). You cannot have half of case (1) and half of case (2); they are based upon opposed premises. There is no way, other than "I said so," to determine when to apply one set of premises or the other if you will not apply them consistently. Therefore, any argument that you are stuck to "within one size category" with polymorph must also logically conclude that you cannot exceed 5 HD. To do otherwise is to change your premises based on what you arbitrarily decide you want to allow.

That is, of course, perfectly acceptable in house rules...but it is not a logically consistent way to read the RAW.

[ryu]

Oddly, it wasn't until I came back to this page and saw your name again that I realized you meant their arguments would disprove themselves. Because yeah, their arguments are quite solid.

Their points are that you can either claim that:

1) The restrictions in polymorph that are more lenient than the restrictions in alter self actively replace the restrictions in alter self, or

2) The restrictions in polymorph that are more lenient than the restrictions in alter self do not actively replace the restrictions in alter self.

In case (1), there is no need to explicitly say that you no longer are restricted to 5 HD, nor to "within one size category" of the original form. The "to a maximum of your CL or 15 HD, whichever is less" clause replaces the "to a maximum of 5 HD" clause implicitly, and the "no smaller than Fine" clause replaces the "within one size category" clause.

In case (2), the lack of explicit declaration that the "no greater than 15 HD" clause replaces the "no greater than 5 HD" clause means that you cannot use polymorph to become any creature with more than 5 HD nor can you become any creature with more than 15 HD (whichever is lower), and the lack of explicit declaration means that the "no smaller than Fine" clause replaces the "within one size category" clause means that you cannot assume the form of any creature that is not within one size category, and in any event no smaller than Fine.


You can have case (1) or case (2). You cannot have half of case (1) and half of case (2); they are based upon opposed premises. There is no way, other than "I said so," to determine when to apply one set of premises or the other if you will not apply them consistently. Therefore, any argument that you are stuck to "within one size category" with polymorph must also logically conclude that you cannot exceed 5 HD. To do otherwise is to change your premises based on what you arbitrarily decide you want to allow.

That is, of course, perfectly acceptable in house rules...but it is not a logically consistent way to read the RAW.

Precisely. That was the logic chain.

[AnachroNinja]

Several people that jumped into it without having time to read it all seemed to misunderstand what was being said, thanks to you to for checking it all out.

My apologies for hijacking the thread for so long in the topic, though I'm not particularly appreciative of attempts to disparage myself or the other participants. From a technical viewpoint it is a point that is directly relevant to the use of polymorph with your familiar after all.

That said, returning to the primary topic, I also highly recommend Dragon Familiar from Draconomicon. While not the most super optimized choice, you can get a lot of mechanical and flavor options from it. Especially since they have actual HD enabling them to take feats. I once played a Kobold sorcerer using that feat and Draconic Cohort, with each of my dragons also taking those feats, chaining it as much as possible to have a flight of small dragons. It was rather weak for a high level caster, but very fun.

[Segev]

I'm not a fan of Dragon Familiar; it just doesn't seem to give as much bang for the buck as even Improved Familiar. If you really want a dragon buddy, I'd go with Dragon Cohort or just plain Leadership (and take a dragon as your cohort).

Familiars that you get for free are likely the most effective for most of these tricks, anyway, since things like polymorph are how you get a familiar to be combat-ready, and will overwrite the expensive chassis you spent feats on.

Honorable mention, I think, also to the share pain/vigor trick for Psicrystals. You can do a poor man's version of it with a Ring of Shielding pair and false life with a familiar. But be very cautious, because false life doesn't give as many temporary hp, and your familiar is thus more fragile. (Could be a use for the bigger-chassis familiars, if they have sufficient hp and get to use their own rather than "half yours.")

[ryu]

I'm not a fan of Dragon Familiar; it just doesn't seem to give as much bang for the buck as even Improved Familiar. If you really want a dragon buddy, I'd go with Dragon Cohort or just plain Leadership (and take a dragon as your cohort).

Familiars that you get for free are likely the most effective for most of these tricks, anyway, since things like polymorph are how you get a familiar to be combat-ready, and will overwrite the expensive chassis you spent feats on.

Honorable mention, I think, also to the share pain/vigor trick for Psicrystals. You can do a poor man's version of it with a Ring of Shielding pair and false life with a familiar. But be very cautious, because false life doesn't give as many temporary hp, and your familiar is thus more fragile. (Could be a use for the bigger-chassis familiars, if they have sufficient hp and get to use their own rather than "half yours.")

Well if you're wanting to optimize HP just be necropolitan faerie mysteries initiate. Congratulations. Now half your HP is not exactly ''fragile'' in a strict sense.

[Segev]

Well if you're wanting to optimize HP just be necropolitan faerie mysteries initiate. Congratulations. Now half your HP is not exactly ''fragile'' in a strict sense.

True!

I admit, optimizing familiars isn't my strong suit. That's about my best trick, aside from the "double polymorph" that others've already gone into great detail on.

I'll toss in that I've always been disappointed by the stitched flesh familiar. It takes a special feat, and ... well, objectively, I know +5 HD undead control cap is pretty nice for a feat, but... I just expect something more from it, for some reason. I can't even really state what that would be.

[Zaydos]

I'm not a fan of Dragon Familiar; it just doesn't seem to give as much bang for the buck as even Improved Familiar. If you really want a dragon buddy, I'd go with Dragon Cohort or just plain Leadership (and take a dragon as your cohort).

Familiars that you get for free are likely the most effective for most of these tricks, anyway, since things like polymorph are how you get a familiar to be combat-ready, and will overwrite the expensive chassis you spent feats on.

Honorable mention, I think, also to the share pain/vigor trick for Psicrystals. You can do a poor man's version of it with a Ring of Shielding pair and false life with a familiar. But be very cautious, because false life doesn't give as many temporary hp, and your familiar is thus more fragile. (Could be a use for the bigger-chassis familiars, if they have sufficient hp and get to use their own rather than "half yours.")

I agree on Dragon Familiar, but it's important to note that polymorph only overwrites Ex racial abilities (such as human bonus feat and skills but I've never seen someone enforce that bit) so if you get say... an imp (double checked Rules Compendium OR DRs are Su if either half is), or blink dog you get to keep the important parts of the chassis (speak languages, DR, and Spell-like Abilities or Blink and Dimension Door) so Improved Familiars with exclusively Ex abilities are a waste not others (and only an insane DM suggests you take a pixie as your familiar, even if I enjoyed that). Doesn't work with Shapechange, though.

That said... Does the Natural Armor increase from a familiar count as a racial ability (because it's an improvement to their existing racial natural armor) or a class level derived ability for shapeshifting?

[Eldariel]

Well if you're wanting to optimize HP just be necropolitan faerie mysteries initiate. Congratulations. Now half your HP is not exactly ''fragile'' in a strict sense.

Of course, undead opens up the various ways to buff undead HP (Desecrate, Corpsecrafter, etc.). And you can always stack various sources of Temporary HP on top of it. False Life (Metamagicked if desired/if it's practically free) is a decent start (1d10+10). Then you can add Fortify Familiar [Spell Compendium] (2d8), Spectral Touch [Spell Compendium] + some disposable trash (up to base HP), etc. If you can persist spells, Greater Heroism is also CL (up to 20) temporary HP, and if you have Arcane Disciple or similar, you can get Divine Power (which also comes with uncapped CL to Temp HP). I'm sure there are plenty of others (Vampiric Touch, Channeled Lifetheft, etc.) that could be used either as a part of a buff sequence. Ones that require targets can always be used on e.g. unlucky Summons from some level Trash summon spell you have plenty of slots for; not like they care.

And yeah, your Improved Familiar being an Outsider opens up some sweet Polymorph forms (Mystra forbid you take Assume Supernatural Ability). E.g. Jarilith [MM2] on level 10 is absolutely brutal (has the Pounce/Rake/Improved Grab Claw/Claw/Bite routine and Frightful Presence, +14 NA, 35 Str/29 Dex/27 Con) and if you stack buffs on top of your Familiar, you can pull off something like a Supermount without levels in any but Familiar-granting classes. Of course, there's no reason you can't get almost the same buff suite yourself; but you'll miss out on some good stuff on e.g. Jarilith form (e.g. Cave Troll is similar without the Outsider-type but the numbers are simply lower across the board).

[NickTheGreek3]

The polymorph fight stopped? Good.


Both myself and the party's currently-alive wizard hesitate to abuse polymorph too much, or pick any stuff that are clearly broken, mostly because the DM suggests that he'll answer in kind.

So, polymorphing familiars to hydras and/or war trolls aside, the Hummingbird's +4 to initiative is a legit argument. Where can I find its stats?

I've read about ravens and similar talking familiars can use wands with enough UMD ranks, although I find it kinda cheesy, plus hard to explain RP-wise (how would a flying bird point a stick in the right direction with its tiny claws?). I guess it could be done, although I'll probably have a hard time convincing the DM.

[ryu]

The polymorph fight stopped? Good.


Both myself and the party's currently-alive wizard hesitate to abuse polymorph too much, or pick any stuff that are clearly broken, mostly because the DM suggests that he'll answer in kind.

So, polymorphing familiars to hydras and/or war trolls aside, the Hummingbird's +4 to initiative is a legit argument. Where can I find its stats?

I've read about ravens and similar talking familiars can use wands with enough UMD ranks, although I find it kinda cheesy, plus hard to explain RP-wise (how would a flying bird point a stick in the right direction with its tiny claws?). I guess it could be done, although I'll probably have a hard time convincing the DM.

Originally comes from dragon mag 323. Other than the initiative boost it uses the same stats as a thrush which is in the back of the DMG alternative familiars. Thrush had no bonus and was an NPC familiar. This is it's obviously superior cousin.

Also hummingbirds in real life can fly forwards, backwards, left, right, up, down, hover, and if I'm remembering properly are the only bird capable of flying while upside down. Somehow I think it'll manage aiming.

[Segev]

I've read about ravens and similar talking familiars can use wands with enough UMD ranks, although I find it kinda cheesy, plus hard to explain RP-wise (how would a flying bird point a stick in the right direction with its tiny claws?). I guess it could be done, although I'll probably have a hard time convincing the DM.

Technically, nothing says a wand has to be pointed any particular direction. Though it is a spell trigger item, so argument could be made whether the bird can perform the somatic gestures required. On the one hand, "spell trigger" means that it's greatly simplified; even a novice wizard can cast a 9th level spell from a spell-trigger item (a staff, since wands can't go that high). On the other, is it so simplified that a raven can do it with its claws, beak, or wings?

[Zaydos]

The polymorph fight stopped? Good.


Both myself and the party's currently-alive wizard hesitate to abuse polymorph too much, or pick any stuff that are clearly broken, mostly because the DM suggests that he'll answer in kind.

So, polymorphing familiars to hydras and/or war trolls aside, the Hummingbird's +4 to initiative is a legit argument. Where can I find its stats?

I've read about ravens and similar talking familiars can use wands with enough UMD ranks, although I find it kinda cheesy, plus hard to explain RP-wise (how would a flying bird point a stick in the right direction with its tiny claws?). I guess it could be done, although I'll probably have a hard time convincing the DM.

Dragon 323, Conjurers only, uses Thrush stats (DMG familiars for tiny masters section).

Dragon 318 had a little tiny pteradactyl which granted +3 but wasn't Conjurers only if that ends up a sticking point.

And yeah I've seen ravens not be allowed to manipulate wands, imps and several other improved familiars get around it, but they're improved familiars.


Of course, undead opens up the various ways to buff undead HP (Desecrate, Corpsecrafter, etc.). And you can always stack various sources of Temporary HP on top of it. False Life (Metamagicked if desired/if it's practically free) is a decent start (1d10+10). Then you can add Fortify Familiar [Spell Compendium] (2d8), Spectral Touch [Spell Compendium] + some disposable trash (up to base HP), etc. If you can persist spells, Greater Heroism is also CL (up to 20) temporary HP, and if you have Arcane Disciple or similar, you can get Divine Power (which also comes with uncapped CL to Temp HP). I'm sure there are plenty of others (Vampiric Touch, Channeled Lifetheft, etc.) that could be used either as a part of a buff sequence. Ones that require targets can always be used on e.g. unlucky Summons from some level Trash summon spell you have plenty of slots for; not like they care.

And yeah, your Improved Familiar being an Outsider opens up some sweet Polymorph forms (Mystra forbid you take Assume Supernatural Ability). E.g. Jarilith [MM2] on level 10 is absolutely brutal (has the Pounce/Rake/Improved Grab Claw/Claw/Bite routine and Frightful Presence, +14 NA, 35 Str/29 Dex/27 Con) and if you stack buffs on top of your Familiar, you can pull off something like a Supermount without levels in any but Familiar-granting classes. Of course, there's no reason you can't get almost the same buff suite yourself; but you'll miss out on some good stuff on e.g. Jarilith form (e.g. Cave Troll is similar without the Outsider-type but the numbers are simply lower across the board).

(Draconic) Polymorph + Blink Dog + Cave Troll Form is still pretty sweet, though. 3 worse natural armor, 6 worse Dex, 6 worse Strength, no Frightful Presence, and d8 worse bite, but Con based save or lose a turn if both claws hit, and 4d6+1-1/2 Strength Rend if they both hit (which means if it is hitting reliably despite the -3 from the lessened Strength it's dealing more damage anyway). Also has the advantage of being from a 3.5 book and not the book notorious for badly designed monsters so is more likely to make it past a DM (and comes online a level earlier) so I'd say despite worse numbers the Daze, Rend, and lessened chance of being hit with a Monster Manual makes up for it. Blink Dog is really unnecessary but hey it can start blinking after the attack to mitigate counter attacks or teleport to get into position for a difficult charge (imp might still be better because it can start off invisible and make sure those claws hit for massive damage).

And I will note that Draconic Polymorph + Cave Troll almost got polymorph and familiars banned (hey the DM asked me to be able to solo CR 13 creatures at 9th level and told me to take a pixie as an improved familiar after I commented out loud about how it would be broken), it did get the DM to rule that Wild Mage and Practiced Spellcaster worked together because I was teetering between Master Specialist Transmutation and a Focused Conjurer/Wild Mage and it was decided only 1 Cave Troll a day was better than 4.

[ryu]

Technically, nothing says a wand has to be pointed any particular direction. Though it is a spell trigger item, so argument could be made whether the bird can perform the somatic gestures required. On the one hand, "spell trigger" means that it's greatly simplified; even a novice wizard can cast a 9th level spell from a spell-trigger item (a staff, since wands can't go that high). On the other, is it so simplified that a raven can do it with its claws, beak, or wings?

If the druid can cast its best spells as a bird from level six on without simplified triggers I see no reason to deny a bird the same utility.

[Telok]

Can someone check the Familiar Pocket spell? I can't on this mobile. I recall the target of the spell being a "pocket, pouch, bag, or other closable object" or language to that effect. Combined with it being a free action to pop in or out, and that the familiar can take that action itself, means you can have an improved familiar tote around a small adamantine box as a safehouse during combat. The little sucker can pokeball itself into a safe at will during the spell.

[Segev]

If the druid can cast its best spells as a bird from level six on without simplified triggers I see no reason to deny a bird the same utility.

Well, a druid needs a feat to do that.

But I am inclined to agree, honestly. I just recognize that it's not 100% guaranteed that a DM will allow it, and a DM isn't entirely having to invoke Rule 0 alone to disallow it.

[Slayn82]

Q: What kind of build would use a familiar with a skill monkey? Facto-melion? any other ideas? If it looks fun i might start a thread on skill monkey with familiar. ??

I played a 3.5 Facto-chamellion with a Familiar once. Used Magic Jar with Share spells, using the Familiar instead of me to possess enemies and Tenser's Tranformation on him for extra damage.
Comprehend languages allowed the familiar to read prepared Sepia Snake Sigils to confine those bodies for later use, or Flesh to Stone for long time storage (along with Shrink Item). The captured enemies were put under Feeblemind spell. Having a Badger/Troll familiar is fun - used Handle Animal to teach him to track by scent, and how to burrow as a Troll.

Yes, I was trying to be a Pokemon Master.

[ryu]

Well, a druid needs a feat to do that.

But I am inclined to agree, honestly. I just recognize that it's not 100% guaranteed that a DM will allow it, and a DM isn't entirely having to invoke Rule 0 alone to disallow it.

Nonsense. That's a druid class feature. We know because no druid level 6 or above lacks it. No not even that one. No. Someone tells you they saw one I immediately assume lies and demand evidence.

Sides the familiar also benefits from a spellcasting aid. No rule requires you to have hands to UMD. In fact we regularly see examples of things without hands casting fine.

[Telok]

Can someone check the Familiar Pocket spell?

I checked, it is any container. So the adamantine box trick works, but it maxxes out at a cubic foot so the familiar has to be tiny or smaller. Since it's explicitly a free action activation by speaking the familiar can pop out, wand/action/something, and pop back in.

Now how indestructable can we make the box? Adamatine is a good start, but stuff like Mountain Hammer and acid will pass the hardness. Rust monsters are an issue but there are ways around that, although they're mostly armor enchantments. What else?

[Âmesang]

If converted AD&D material is allowed, Slerotin's fortitude from DRAGON #241 can make an area of non-magical, inorganic material impervious to physical and magical damage, only removable via wish (but it can be cast multiple times on the same area, requiring multiple wishes to bring down).

[Eldariel]

I checked, it is any container. So the adamantine box trick works, but it maxxes out at a cubic foot so the familiar has to be tiny or smaller. Since it's explicitly a free action activation by speaking the familiar can pop out, wand/action/something, and pop back in.

Now how indestructable can we make the box? Adamatine is a good start, but stuff like Mountain Hammer and acid will pass the hardness. Rust monsters are an issue but there are ways around that, although they're mostly armor enchantments. What else?

There's always Riverine.

[NickTheGreek3]

What about a Duskblade? All guides I've read about duskblades recommend Obtain Familiar, but duskblade doesn't have Polymorph and isn't a conjurer, so no Hummingbird either. How would a duskblade benefit from a familiar?

[Zaydos]

What about a Duskblade? All guides I've read about duskblades recommend Obtain Familiar, but duskblade doesn't have Polymorph and isn't a conjurer, so no Hummingbird either. How would a duskblade benefit from a familiar?

Full BAB + High hit points means your familiar can wade into melee and attack no polymorph needed.

Also focus on touch spells.

To go to Blink Dog since I just have a child-like love of blink dogs (not actually because they're a particularly good familiar) you cast a touch spell you let it hold the charge for you. You get into combat. The blink dog d.doors into melee (or moves) and delivers the touch spell (BAB +6 or more), then you move up and smack em with a channel spell and flanking bonus. The blink dog has half your hp and likely a better AC than you do, gives you flanking bonus, has a usually 20-50% miss chance if they do decide to attack it, and gives you in effect a free action spell at the beginning of each combat.

And I repeat despite my fixation with blink dogs they're actually not good improved familiars (duskblades are when they're best).

Imp works similarly except it's invisible and has DR instead of teleporting and miss chance.

Also there's the tiny pteradactyl (rhanphornhychus or some such) which is only +1 less initiative than the hummingbird and doesn't have the conjurer thing.

[Troacctid]

Duskblades have more powerful and durable familiars than most arcanists because familiars share your HP and BAB. They can make great use of the familiar's scouting and sensory abilities to get a big boost in versatility both in and out of combat. And while the standard familiar is fairly basic in its function, some of the improved familiars are extremely powerful—the lantern archon, for example, is pretty much insane, as is the coure eladrin.

[NickTheGreek3]

Yes, the duskblade make the familiars more potent with more HP and full BaB, but the whole concept of the duskblade is delivering touch spells with your weapon, so why do you even need the familiar to do it?


Imp works similarly except it's invisible and has DR instead of teleporting and miss chance.
Man, I'd love to have an Imp as a familiar (and I can get one as Lawful Neutral), but I'm playing in a good party, and I'm 100% sure the party's paladin will not accept this (or straight up try to kill it), plus the party will comment that I'm trying to mess with the paladin.

I also like blink dogs, they were the very first encounter that gave me and my party trouble.

[Zaydos]

Yes, the duskblade make the familiars more potent with more HP and full BaB, but the whole concept of the duskblade is delivering touch spells with your weapon, so why do you even need the familiar to do it?

Because you can have a charge of a touch spell held, which means you can get a freebie each encounter. It's free Quicken Spell for touch spells 1/encounter if you cast it ahead of time (this does mean you can't cast pre-combat buffs if you've already cast it, though). And that's only one of their many uses (actually one of the worst uses, but that'd be its own feat a lot of times).


Man, I'd love to have an Imp as a familiar (and I can get one as Lawful Neutral), but I'm playing in a good party, and I'm 100% sure the party's paladin will not accept this (or straight up try to kill it), plus the party will comment that I'm trying to mess with the paladin.

I also like blink dogs, they were the very first encounter that gave me and my party trouble.

Lantern Archons are good too, if you were NG as pointed out coure eladrin is pretty crazy (full fledged incorporealness i.e. it can scout through walls). For me blink dogs were my first introduction to good aligned monsters in the AD&D Monster Manual as a kid and I just loved 'em they were these super dogs that helped you.

[AnachroNinja]

Remember, "Always Evil" doesn't actually mean always evil. You still have to meet the alignment requirement to attract it as a familiar, but it doesn't have to actually be evil. Having it match your alignment is a reasonable request to give your DM, and it could be a sub plot that your harboring a renegade demon/devil (quasits are also decent)

[Troacctid]

Man, I'd love to have an Imp as a familiar (and I can get one as Lawful Neutral), but I'm playing in a good party, and I'm 100% sure the party's paladin will not accept this (or straight up try to kill it), plus the party will comment that I'm trying to mess with the paladin.

I also like blink dogs, they were the very first encounter that gave me and my party trouble.
Take a lantern archon. They are straight-up the #1 best familiar in the game, and you can get them as a Lawful Neutral character.

[NickTheGreek3]

Remember, "Always Evil" doesn't actually mean always evil. You still have to meet the alignment requirement to attract it as a familiar, but it doesn't have to actually be evil. Having it match your alignment is a reasonable request to give your DM, and it could be a sub plot that your harboring a renegade demon/devil (quasits are also decent)
A lawful neutral imp? Does that even make sense? Isn't it their nature to be evil? :smallconfused:


Lantern Archons are good too, if you were NG as pointed out coure eladrin is pretty crazy (full fledged incorporealness i.e. it can scout through walls). For me blink dogs were my first introduction to good aligned monsters in the AD&D Monster Manual as a kid and I just loved 'em they were these super dogs that helped you.

Take a lantern archon. They are straight-up the #1 best familiar in the game, and you can get them as a Lawful Neutral character.
If I'm reading this correctly, a Lantern Archon always has a Magic Circle against Evil around it? Does that work like the normal spell with a 10ft radius or does it only surround the archon?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No dude, ... just no. You all stunk up this joint and you are all walking away smelling horrible for it. No exceptions. I feel gross and ashamed to be a 3e D&D fan specifically because of the three of you and this failure of adulthood. Don't try and pretend you get to get out of here with your head held high. None of you do.What, you're criticizing me for stopping a pointless argument? Really? *Facepalm*

[Troacctid]

If I'm reading this correctly, a Lantern Archon always has a Magic Circle against Evil around it? Does that work like the normal spell with a 10ft radius or does it only surround the archon?
It works like the spell, except that it's always on, and it's a supernatural ability, so it can't be dispelled and it doesn't allow spell resistance.

[Âmesang]

A lawful neutral imp? Does that even make sense? Isn't it their nature to be evil? :smallconfused:
Maybe he got sick of being bossed around by bigger devils, got tired of Hell's incessant politics, and just stopped caring?

Although if he's anything like the succubus paladin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a), he'd still retain the [Evil] subtype regardless of alignment.

[Elkad]

Man, I'd love to have an Imp as a familiar (and I can get one as Lawful Neutral), but I'm playing in a good party, and I'm 100% sure the party's paladin will not accept this (or straight up try to kill it), plus the party will comment that I'm trying to mess with the paladin.

One of my games I talked to the DM and worked out a plan. My wizard was LN teetering towards LE at the beginning of the game. I traded off my Familiar for an ACF.
At 3 I took Obtain Familiar and got a "rat". Which really was an Imp with no powers and stuck in rat form. So it was mechanically a rat. At 6 I took Improved Familiar, and at 7 it became a full Imp again. Now it can be an imp while invisible, or a visible rat, or I could even "polymorph" it into a boar. All the while it's whispering in my ear urging me towards the evil path. Eventually Buzz Lightyear the Paladin fell out a window died. There was some debate as to whether or not I knew him and those orphans were in the basement when I used that scroll of cloudkill, (the ground floor was legitimately full of bad guys) but nothing stuck.

[NickTheGreek3]

One of my games I talked to the DM and worked out a plan. My wizard was LN teetering towards LE at the beginning of the game. I traded off my Familiar for an ACF.
At 3 I took Obtain Familiar and got a "rat". Which really was an Imp with no powers and stuck in rat form. So it was mechanically a rat. At 6 I took Improved Familiar, and at 7 it became a full Imp again. Now it can be an imp while invisible, or a visible rat, or I could even "polymorph" it into a boar. All the while it's whispering in my ear urging me towards the evil path. Eventually Buzz Lightyear the Paladin fell out a window died. There was some debate as to whether or not I knew him and those orphans were in the basement when I used that scroll of cloudkill, (the ground floor was legitimately full of bad guys) but nothing stuck.

Heh, that's a nice story. Honestly, my character is teetering towards evil, his backstory is basically an ex-military man who's out to avenge his murdered father by any. means. neccessary. Plus spells like Vampiric Touch are considered evil from the DM (good guys get evil points for casting them, neutral guys don't give a sh*t). So basically the fight-evil-with-evil and power-is-power thing that paladins usually don't agree with. That's why I wouldn't hesitate to pick a imp as a familiar if that particular paladin didn't spam the sh*t out of Detect Evil. Situations like the one below are pretty common:

Innkeeper: Welcome travelers! What can I get you this fine day?
Paladin: Detect Evil.
DM: He's not evil.
Paladin: Some ale would be nice.
So yeah, I don't think I can get the imp past his scanners. Plus he already messed with another PC long ago for having an imp familiar. But I might be able to persuade the DM. :smallamused:

[Elkad]

Heh, that's a nice story. Honestly, my character is teetering towards evil, his backstory is basically an ex-military man who's out to avenge his murdered father by any. means. neccessary. Plus spells like Vampiric Touch are considered evil from the DM (good guys get evil points for casting them, neutral guys don't give a sh*t). So basically the fight-evil-with-evil and power-is-power thing that paladins usually don't agree with. That's why I wouldn't hesitate to pick a imp as a familiar if that particular paladin didn't spam the sh*t out of Detect Evil. Situations like the one below are pretty common:

So yeah, I don't think I can get the imp past his scanners. Plus he already messed with another PC long ago for having an imp familiar. But I might be able to persuade the DM. :smallamused:

1500gp for a wand of Undetectable Alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undetectableAlignment.htm) (50 days worth). 4000gp for a custom always-on item. Either way by the time you get the Imp at 7th, it's not a terrible expense.

Edit. Beguiler and Dread Necro get it at 1st level, so halve those prices (I was using L1 spell from a L2 bard)

[Telok]

Heh, that's a nice story. Honestly, my character is teetering towards evil, his backstory is basically an ex-military man who's out to avenge his murdered father by any. means. neccessary. Plus spells like Vampiric Touch are considered evil from the DM (good guys get evil points for casting them, neutral guys don't give a sh*t). So basically the fight-evil-with-evil and power-is-power thing that paladins usually don't agree with. That's why I wouldn't hesitate to pick a imp as a familiar if that particular paladin didn't spam the sh*t out of Detect Evil. Situations like the one below are pretty common:

So yeah, I don't think I can get the imp past his scanners. Plus he already messed with another PC long ago for having an imp familiar. But I might be able to persuade the DM. :smallamused:

Oh that's even more fun. Cast Nystul's Mystic Arua [sp] on your familar any time he's visible and in alternate form. But have him fly around invisible a lot. Pick up the Elven cloak and boots for him, have him hide (invisible) behind people and objects that the paladin scans. Don't stick around for the three rounds of concentration the paladin needs to pinpoint location, just hang around long enough to convince him someone/something is evil.

Bonus points if you can get the paladin to smite the statue of a local hero in the town square.

[Saritas]

Heh, that's a nice story. Honestly, my character is teetering towards evil, his backstory is basically an ex-military man who's out to avenge his murdered father by any. means. neccessary. Plus spells like Vampiric Touch are considered evil from the DM (good guys get evil points for casting them, neutral guys don't give a sh*t). So basically the fight-evil-with-evil and power-is-power thing that paladins usually don't agree with. That's why I wouldn't hesitate to pick a imp as a familiar if that particular paladin didn't spam the sh*t out of Detect Evil. Situations like the one below are pretty common:

So yeah, I don't think I can get the imp past his scanners. Plus he already messed with another PC long ago for having an imp familiar. But I might be able to persuade the DM. :smallamused:



Not caught not a thief, protection from alignment detection cause paladins have 0 understanding of the arcane or the way of the world anyway...

[LordOfCain]

Yes, the duskblade make the familiars more potent with more HP and full BaB, but the whole concept of the duskblade is delivering touch spells with your weapon, so why do you even need the familiar to do it?


Man, I'd love to have an Imp as a familiar (and I can get one as Lawful Neutral), but I'm playing in a good party, and I'm 100% sure the party's paladin will not accept this (or straight up try to kill it), plus the party will comment that I'm trying to mess with the paladin.

I also like blink dogs, they were the very first encounter that gave me and my party trouble.
Can the paladin see invisible things? If not just have it stay invisible with some lead sheets or armor.

[Âmesang]

Which is another plus for imps/quasits; they're immune to lead poison. :smalltongue:

[Willie the Duck]

What, you're criticizing me for stopping a pointless argument? Really? *Facepalm*

Not you specifically, sorry if you felt singled out. Everyone involved equally no exceptions, and not for stopping it, but for participating. Same logic as when the kids are squabbling. "Don't tell me who started it, you were all fighting" and such.

Back on topic, I really like the Duskblade concept, but their spell list really constrains them to using spells to enhance their attacks, meaning that they don't really up the 'out of combat' ability that fighter types have been searching for. I think focusing on their familiar and their use in scouting might broaden them a bit. Taking the Apprentice feat or other ways to broaden their class skills would also be a neat idea.

[NickTheGreek3]

So, I've reconsidered the whole familiar thing and with my Duskblade nearing level 12, I think it would be a great opportunity for an Improved Familiar (and retraining a level 1 feat for Obtain Familiar). I'm currently leaning towards a Blink Dog, but although its defense and overall utillity are pretty solid, its attack is lacking (a mere 1d6 bite - meh). So, what can I use (items, feats etc) to improve its damage (other than the Enhance Familiar spell that I might persuade the party's wizard to learn and prepare)? Also, can Blink Dogs use Dimension Door and attack at the same round (the spell states that the caster can't take any other actions until the next turn)?

P.S. I'd post a new thread, but since the topic is similar and Duskblade and Blink Dogs have already been mentioned, I posted here instead.

[weckar]

I was also leafing through the PHB the other day, and while someone mentioned here that wizard's familiar only scales with wizard levels I see no such reference in the text?
It neither uses the terms "Wizard levels", "class levels" or "caster levels" , just "levels".

[Eldariel]

I was also leafing through the PHB the other day, and while someone mentioned here that wizard's familiar only scales with wizard levels I see no such reference in the text?
It neither uses the terms "Wizard levels", "class levels" or "caster levels" , just "levels".

Familiar special abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars):
"All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master’s combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. The abilities given on the table are cumulative."

HD and such, fine. Special abilities, only classes that grant the class feature (while Obtain Familiar grants them for combined arcane casting classes regardless of whether they have the class feature or not).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not you specifically, sorry if you felt singled out.Because you singled me out and specifically told me how awful I was for abandoning a sinking ship after it was clear everyone was going to drown and we were taking the entire thread with us. Don't think you can duck out (huh, didn't mean to pun there) of sounding like you weren't.

[Zaydos]

Also, can Blink Dogs use Dimension Door and attack at the same round (the spell states that the caster can't take any other actions until the next turn)?

Yes


Dimension Door (Su)

A blink dog can teleport, as dimension door (caster level 8th), once per round as a free action. The ability affects only the blink dog, which never appears within a solid object and can act immediately after teleporting.

It cannot teleport other people with it, but it also specifies it never appears within a solid object and can act immediately after.

[weckar]

Familiar special abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars):
"All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master’s combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. The abilities given on the table are cumulative."

HD and such, fine. Special abilities, only classes that grant the class feature (while Obtain Familiar grants them for combined arcane casting classes regardless of whether they have the class feature or not).

Okay that makes more sense. Here I was confused that their HP wouldn't advance... But the special abilities aren't THAT great beyond the first few.

[NickTheGreek3]

Yes

It cannot teleport other people with it, but it also specifies it never appears within a solid object and can act immediately after.
*facepalm*
I read the Blink Dog description a couple times and somehow missed that part... Thanks.


Familiar special abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars):
"All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master’s combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. The abilities given on the table are cumulative."

HD and such, fine. Special abilities, only classes that grant the class feature (while Obtain Familiar grants them for combined arcane casting classes regardless of whether they have the class feature or not).
So, the prestige class levels of, say, a Wizard/Archmage don't count for the familiar's special abilities?

[ryu]

*facepalm*
I read the Blink Dog description a couple times and somehow missed that part... Thanks.


So, the prestige class levels of, say, a Wizard/Archmage don't count for the familiar's special abilities?

Unless the familiar was obtained by the obtain familiar feat, no. It's very common for people to trade their familiar away for some powerful goody then get a new one that scales better. So long as your build wasn't in conflict with one of the options that do this and you were planning to prestige in some way I'd say it's worth a good half feat of value extra.