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View Full Version : Rules Q&A Spellhoarding Loredrake Tome-Dragon: will it blend?



Jowgen
2016-09-01, 06:21 PM
I am trying to blend the titled 3 things to create the basis for what should be the most book-wormy Dragon (Book Wyrm?) possible. I wanted to run this mess past the playground to get nitpicks and hopefully answers on some of the things that aren't clear to me. So without further ado...

Lets take a Wyrmling Tome Dragon from Dragon mag 343 p. 42. (lets call him Tim)

Tim starts with a CL of 3, meaning it casts arcane spells as a 3rd level sorcerer, giving 3 1st level spells known and 5 castings of those 1st level spells per day (discounting bonus spells from a High casting stat). Additionally, "Tome Dragons automatically know all divination and conjuration spells on the sorcerer spell list. They can also cast spells from the Knowledge Cleric Domain as sorcerer spells.

Next, we apply the Loredrake Archetype from DoE p.31.

Tim looses access to the Cleric Domain spells, thought does keep Conjuration/Divination. He'd gain spellcraft as a class skill, if it weren't already. His effective Sorcerer level increases by 2, bringing him to 5. His spell knowledge is now 4 1sts, 2 2nds and all Sorc Divination/Conjuration, and he can cast 6 1sts and 4 2nds. Lastly, his HD drop to d10s.

Now things get crazy with the Spellhoarding dragon psychosis from Dragon Mag 313 p. 80.

Tim gets some ability score adjustments, skill bonuses and Scribe Scroll and Eschew Material as bonus feats. That's the easy part. The hard part is that Tim now casts and prepares spells as a Wizard (so he casts as a 5th level Wizard, giving 3 1sts, 2 2nds and 1 3rd level spell/day), rather than a sorcerer, and gains a "Spellhoard" in place of a Spellbook. "Any spell the Dragon learns takes physical form on its body as a rune or arcane symbol scribed upon one of its scales. [...] To add a spell to its Spellhoard, the dragon must complete a process similar to how a Wizard scibes spells into a spellbook. (spells lost due to reasons below can be re-scribed without issue, although another hardcopy is likely required).

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells, so it should follow that they should be in the spellhoard. Similarly, a Wizard gains 2 free spells to add to their spellbook each level, which should mean 4 more spells?

The real puzzler is, how do the prior spells known translate into the Spellhoard? Maybe they magically appear? Maybe they're lost. Maybe they must be scribed, which may or may not carry a 100 gp material charge. Then there is the question about the higher level spells. Am I missing a rule about Wizards being banned from scribing spells above the level they can cast into their books?

Then there are the spell-hoard based abilities.

Spellcatching (Su), in brief, is spellcatching at the cost of spells from the hoard, requiring one spell of equal or higher level that matches the school or a descriptor, and gems worth 100 gp per spell level. Alternatively to the gems, Tim can expend more spells from his hoard via...

Spell Hoard Burning (Su). Tim can sacrifice spells from his hoard to "supply the gp and exp cost for a particularly costly spell. Each spell level grants 20 exp or 100 gp. As always, he can replace the burnt spells by scribing them again (e.g. from a scroll of it he made beforehand). So basically, as long as he has time to scribe spells into his hoard, Tim never ever has to worry about paying gp or exp for casting big spells ever again (e.g. a basic Wish casting costs him 250 spell levels worth of spells). If he got to record (all) his Conjuration/Divination known spells, he gets a hefty head-start on that too.

Casting from Spellhoard (Sp). With this ability, Tim can CL + Int times per day sacrifice one of the spells from his hoard to "cast it in much the same way as an ordinary spellcaster casts from a scroll". "Such a spell functions as if the caster had cast it normally (that is, it is cast at the Dragon's caster level, and any benefits the Dragon would ordinarily gain from feats or items apply)".

Now I presume that I am missing the aforementioned tidbit of RAW that prevents a Wizard from scribing spells above the level he can cast into his spellbook. Because if not, then Tim is capable of spellhoard-adding not only the Gate spell that being a Tomedragon would have given him as a spell known, but any other spell he can find a copy off (e.g. Wish), which he can then cast via Cast From Spellhoard.

So yeah. A Wyrmling casting 3rd level Wiz spell, who effectively provides time as a spell component rahter than gp or exp, and can potentially cast any high level spell once in a while lest I miss a piece of RAW that I really hope exists.

Jowgen
2016-09-03, 07:14 AM
Normally I'd do a bump here, but honestly, I completely understand the lack of enthusiasm, so yeah...

Buufreak
2016-09-03, 10:24 AM
I actually love the concept. When you are looking into making a "book wyrm" (love it!) are you hoping to provide a pc resource or a severe pain, because I can really see such a thing going either way at just about any level.

WhamBamSam
2016-09-03, 10:42 AM
I prefer Riddled over Spellhoarding on Tome Dragons. Converting to Wizard casting loses you the full benefit of knowing all of Conjuration and Divination. Riddled gets you the advantange of Int as a casting stat complete with a bigger boost to the stat, but otherwise leaves the Tome Dragon casting as a Sorcerer and hence able to cast all Conjuration and Divination spontaneously. As the extra spell knowledge is not alternate spell selection, it's also left alone by Sovereign Archetypes, so Loredrake fits in fine.

Jowgen
2016-09-03, 03:30 PM
I actually love the concept. When you are looking into making a "book wyrm" (love it!) are you hoping to provide a pc resource or a severe pain, because I can really see such a thing going either way at just about any level.

Either, depending on which path they choose. I categorically give my PCs the option to choose sides in conflicts that come in different shades of moral grey.


I prefer Riddled over Spellhoarding on Tome Dragons. Converting to Wizard casting loses you the full benefit of knowing all of Conjuration and Divination. Riddled gets you the advantange of Int as a casting stat complete with a bigger boost to the stat, but otherwise leaves the Tome Dragon casting as a Sorcerer and hence able to cast all Conjuration and Divination spontaneously. As the extra spell knowledge is not alternate spell selection, it's also left alone by Sovereign Archetypes, so Loredrake fits in fine.

Riddled does have its advantages, but I'm going with Spellhoarding due to its more fleshed out story-element options, plus the lack of a physical hoard is needed for plot. You seem familiar with both, any idea how the known spells are supposed to translate to spells in the spell-hoard upon becoming Spellhoarding, and/or whether there's a limit to the level of spells allowed in the hoard?

WhamBamSam
2016-09-03, 09:09 PM
Riddled does have its advantages, but I'm going with Spellhoarding due to its more fleshed out story-element options, plus the lack of a physical hoard is needed for plot. You seem familiar with both, any idea how the known spells are supposed to translate to spells in the spell-hoard upon becoming Spellhoarding, and/or whether there's a limit to the level of spells allowed in the hoard?Spells known should correspond to spells in the spellbook, or in this case spellhoard. So you'll still have access to all of Conjuration/Divination, but will have to prepare the spells rather than just being able to cast from the entire schools spontaneously.

Endarire
2016-09-04, 03:16 AM
I read this already but am not sure what you're trying to do beyond mix a Tome Dragon with an archetype and a psychosis to see what happens.

Jowgen
2016-09-04, 07:52 AM
I read this already but am not sure what you're trying to do beyond mix a Tome Dragon with an archetype and a psychosis to see what happens.

There's no particular purpose beyond a) checking that it all fits together as intended, and b) get some clarifications/opinions on the Spellhoard-based abilities.