Planned Party Synergy Strategy

[PeteNutButter]

After my characters in both OotA and CoS were a good deal ahead of my party in power, the other players have agreed to let me "help" make their characters for the Storm King's Thunder. I'm big into theory crafting solo characters, but party synergy is a new thing for me, so I'm trying to put together a good list of gimmicks (not just party comp) I can run by my party.

The least investment/least narrowing the better. For instance a party that all took two levels of warlock and abused devil's sight and darkness would be a consideration as everyone could pick up those two levels and a 13 cha, and still play whatever character they wanted. The downside to that is it requires buy-in from pretty much everyone. We have a group of up to 6 players who may or may not all agree to whatever is proposed.

What I have so far(will edit as ideas come in):
Party Combos:
-The aforementioned Devil's Sight combo, granting advantage to allies and disadvantage to foes in most fights.
-Entire party that recovers everything on short rests, monks, warlocks, fighters, etc.
-Entire party that can stealth, add in pass without trace, maybe 3 levels of assassin, aim for lots of surprise.
-Entire party ranged, focus on kiting via repelling blast, ensnaring strike etc.
-Wolf Barb(s) with an excess of melee (credit gfishfunk)
-God-touched/roll manipulating party (credit Stygofthedump)

Two PC combos:
-Moon druid "mount" with sentinel, and mounted combat tank on top.
-A Grappler, and a caster with spells like cloud of daggers, spike growth etc.
-BM with Commander's strike, and any rogue

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there is plenty more like it.

[Specter]

I believe no party should consist of a single class, simply because it breaks the diversity that is the backbone of DnD.

But the whole stealth idea seems nice; almost all classes can be made with DEX in 5e, and backgrounds and races cover the skill. I'd go with that and ranged/melee versatility for all kinds of strategies.

[PeteNutButter]

I believe no party should consist of a single class, simply because it breaks the diversity that is the backbone of DnD.

But the whole stealth idea seems nice; almost all classes can be made with DEX in 5e, and backgrounds and races cover the skill. I'd go with that and ranged/melee versatility for all kinds of strategies.

The idea with the warlock thing would be that everyone was just multi-classing 2 levels in it, so we would still have class diversity. We could have a cleric x/warlock 2, paladin x/warlock 2, rogue x/warlock 2, etc.

[MaxWilson]

A party where everyone has the Mobile feat is fantastic. A party where at least half of the PCs have a strong ranged attack is also fantastic (especially if you have a good front-liner tank like a Moon Druid with Mage Armor who can hold the front line, preferably Dodging, while everyone else does the damage). Put them together and give them all Stealth proficiency (and Pass Without Trace from a druid, ranger or shadow monk) and it becomes even more amazing.

Also consider investing in at least one good or super-healer, even if it's just a Lore Bard with Aura of Vitality or something. The ability to heal between 70 and 240 HP of damage with a single casting of Aura of Vitality will qualitatively transform the way you play.

[EvilAnagram]

I tend to like fairly diverse parties that can tackle problems in different ways while still working together. The Rogue/Ranger in a party with a Bard who casts Faerie Fire, the Barbarian Grappler, and the Wizard with Cloud of Daggers. You have a wide variety of skill specializations, but the Barbarian Grappler can hold an enemy in the Cloud while the Rogue pops off Sneak Attacks thanks to the Faerie Fire while the Wizard and Bard do crowd control on their turns.

Generally, for party dynamics I like to think of areas of expertise. Grapplers, steady damage dealers, AoE specialists, buffers, and novas are all important to think about. How do they allow each other to shine in their own special ways? How do they build on each other's strengths to make something amazing?

I think the oddest and possibly most ridiculous party dynamic would be to have a Grappler in a party with a Wizard, Druid, and Warlock who cast Cloud of Daggers, Spike Growth, and Hunger of Hadar.

[Sabeta]

Just a snippet, but if my current character dies we're losing the most reliable front-liner on the team, and my next character is planned to be a Warlock already. We've got a Sorcerer, a Ranger, and me the Fighter. Occasionally a Monk joins us, and we used to have a Paladin. (My DM gave me early plate armor to make up for the fact that the Paladin quit). Our present party works quite well. Myself and the Ranger push out consistent at-will damage, and the Sorcerer has great nova potential and crowd clearing. Monk is more of a disruptor, which also works out.

Should I die, our party dynamic is going to shift in a very scary direction. It would be nice to have upwards of 6 people who can cover a broad spectrum of roles, but the DM only wants to play with people he knows, so it ended up a small party.

More on topic: I like the short-rest party. When everyone's resources key off the same recharge mechanic everyone gets a feel for how the party is doing.

[PeteNutButter]

I personally liked the challenge of an all ranged party as it would make some fights trivial while others might be exceptionally challenging. What about other simple two PC combos? Anyone have any further ideas? I know there are certain buff spells that must be great on characters that can't cast them themselves.

A grappler for instance could use enlarge or enhance ability. Many melee builds excel with a haste. Hold Person/Hold Monster spells are ridiculous when paired with either a rogue, smiting paladin, or anything that can roll a fistful of dice when auto-critting paralyzed foes.

[JellyPooga]

The least investment/least narrowing the better. For instance a party that all took two levels of warlock and abused devil's sight and darkness would be a consideration as everyone could pick up those two levels and a 13 cha, and still play whatever character they wanted.

This is probably a bad idea.

For a start, you'll need at least one person to get hold of the Darkness spell itself. That means upping that 2-lvl. dip to at least three or taking another caster-Class. The former has the problem of impinging further on your chosen Class, delaying access to higher level features further and the latter is only compounding the issue of delayed spell progression. A level 5 character (for example) who is the parties primary caster, but only has 2nd level spell slots is...not optimal. If the parties primary caster is a Warlock, that's also an issue of a different kind.

I think it might be interesting in a smaller group of three or four, but six? I can't see it working all that well. That 2-level dip is a massive delay in raw power for many Classes, especially casters who (at higher levels particularly) don't care so much about having Advantage to hit.

There are many ways of generating Advantage and/or Disadvantage and getting everyone to "buy in" to a 2-3 lvl. Warlock dip is probably the most costly and inefficient.

[PeteNutButter]

This is probably a bad idea.

For a start, you'll need at least one person to get hold of the Darkness spell itself. That means upping that 2-lvl. dip to at least three or taking another caster-Class. The former has the problem of impinging further on your chosen Class, delaying access to higher level features further and the latter is only compounding the issue of delayed spell progression. A level 5 character (for example) who is the parties primary caster, but only has 2nd level spell slots is...not optimal. If the parties primary caster is a Warlock, that's also an issue of a different kind.

I think it might be interesting in a smaller group of three or four, but six? I can't see it working all that well. That 2-level dip is a massive delay in raw power for many Classes, especially casters who (at higher levels particularly) don't care so much about having Advantage to hit.

There are many ways of generating Advantage and/or Disadvantage and getting everyone to "buy in" to a 2-3 lvl. Warlock dip is probably the most costly and inefficient.

I largely agree with you there, although I'd imagine at least one PC would stay warlock and cast the darkness. The party would really suffer around level 5, when they would be mostly lacking extra attack and 3rd level spells, unless they stayed warlock. BUT... foes can't attack what they can't see. As long as you can keep them in the darkness zone its pretty busted. I tried not to narrow down the details, but imagine a big bad that can't see, and the paladin/warlock has sentinel just locking him down with advantage to hit. I can't see how the party can lose a fight when the BBG can't do a thing.

Depending on how the DM adjudicates it, I'd imagine the BBG would get a per check to see where the paladin is, to even get a chance to swing at the right square...

[JellyPooga]

Depending on how the DM adjudicates it, I'd imagine the BBG would get a per check to see where the paladin is, to even get a chance to swing at the right square...

Depends on the BBEG. A spellslinging bad guy might not care about being able to see and cast an AoE, dispel the Darkness or teleport away.

Devils will just ignore the Darkness altogether.

It's hard to lock down a whole mob of dudes. Multiple foes will likely have the opportunity to evade the Darkness.

Target the Caster. Force concentration checks and the Darkness goes down.

It's not an infallible tactic by any means. Effective, yes but, as I said, it's a costly one.

[PeteNutButter]

Depends on the BBEG. A spellslinging bad guy might not care about being able to see and cast an AoE, dispel the Darkness or teleport away.

True but this is for Storm King's Thunder, not sure how many foes will be able to do that. Honestly have no idea.



Devils will just ignore the Darkness altogether.

Definately wouldn't do this strategy in Out of the Abyss lol.



It's hard to lock down a whole mob of dudes. Multiple foes will likely have the opportunity to evade the Darkness.

This again depends DM adjudication. Dumb foes just know they could see and now they can't. Would they really run out of darkness? Lots of variables, but it is weakest against many mobs, unless you just sit in it and eldritch blast out of it.



Target the Caster. Force concentration checks and the Darkness goes down.

Not likely targeting what they can't see... and if they can, why bother?

Bottom Line: I seriously doubt the party would even go for this strategy, but it is very viable IMO. It's basically greater invis for the whole party with a different set of limitations. I was trying to crowd source some different ideas, ones that don't require as much investment.

[mgshamster]

I really like the idea of everyone recovering resources on a short rest.

Land Druid can recover some spell slots on a short rest, covering your divine magic and healing. And the base Druid recovers wildshape uses on a short rest.

Both the Fighter and Rogue are either short rest or don't even have to worry about it at all.

A monk recovers ki points on a short rest.

And a warlock recovers spells on a short rest.

There's five PCs right there. Have the last one double up somewhere, showing diversity by simply picking a difference archetype in the fighter, rogue, monk, or warlock classes.

You've got divine/healing covered by the Druid, with a by of damage and tank from wildshape. Damage/tank covered by the fighter, with possible range. DPR/scout covered by the rogue. Mobility fighting and control covered by the monk. Arcane magic and range damage covered by the warlock. Your last class could even be a bard - while not a short rest guy himself, he grants extra healing to everyone on a short rest and can be back-up support for every other niche in the group.

[gfishfunk]

Some other ideas:

- Melee builds (with, yes, some range options) working around 1 or 2 wolf totem barbarians. The wolf totem barbarians grant advantage to everyone else. Rogues and Half-Orc Champions would work well with this. Monks, Clerics, Rangers, and Bladelocks too.

- Instead of Devil Sight Warlocks, do a group of Rogues, Shadow Monks, Warlocks, and Trickster Clerics. Some will have devil's sight, but everyone will work well with dark areas.

- Everyone is a Half-Orc Bard specializing in bagpipes. I'm not sure of the mechanical benefits, but you should definitely do it.

- Everyone is an Illusion Wizard. Every battle turns into a labyrinth of illusion.

[PeteNutButter]

Some other ideas:

- Melee builds (with, yes, some range options) working around 1 or 2 wolf totem barbarians. The wolf totem barbarians grant advantage to everyone else. Rogues and Half-Orc Champions would work well with this. Monks, Clerics, Rangers, and Bladelocks too.

MOB EM!



- Everyone is a Half-Orc Bard specializing in bagpipes. I'm not sure of the mechanical benefits, but you should definitely do it.

Love it. Actually played a Goliath grapple bard in CoS.

[EvilAnagram]

For some reason I like the idea of everyone being a monk specializing in a different monk weapon and path. Eventually, I would imagine they all get mounts that can combine into a super mount with a sword and a chest laser.

[Specter]

I really like the idea of everyone recovering resources on a short rest.

Land Druid can recover some spell slots on a short rest, covering your divine magic and healing. And the base Druid recovers wildshape uses on a short rest.

Both the Fighter and Rogue are either short rest or don't even have to worry about it at all.

A monk recovers ki points on a short rest.

And a warlock recovers spells on a short rest.

There's five PCs right there. Have the last one double up somewhere, showing diversity by simply picking a difference archetype in the fighter, rogue, monk, or warlock classes.

You've got divine/healing covered by the Druid, with a by of damage and tank from wildshape. Damage/tank covered by the fighter, with possible range. DPR/scout covered by the rogue. Mobility fighting and control covered by the monk. Arcane magic and range damage covered by the warlock. Your last class could even be a bard - while not a short rest guy himself, he grants extra healing to everyone on a short rest and can be back-up support for every other niche in the group.

That's the best idea I've seen. Land Druid, Warlock, Fighter, Rogue and Monk. Healing, damage, control, skills. Boom.

[JellyPooga]

I really like the idea of everyone recovering resources on a short rest.

Land Druid can recover some spell slots on a short rest, covering your divine magic and healing. And the base Druid recovers wildshape uses on a short rest.

Both the Fighter and Rogue are either short rest or don't even have to worry about it at all.

A monk recovers ki points on a short rest.

And a warlock recovers spells on a short rest.

I would be very tempted to multiclass that Warlock with a Cleric or Bard dip, to get some healing that respawns on a Short Rest. Giving the Rogue the Healer feat and taking the Thief Archetype would also be a good idea to avoid HP attrition ruining your day.

[BW022]

PeteNutButter,

I don't find these type of concept or single strategy parties work well.

Most players won't buy into it. People typically have their own concepts in mind, their own strengths and weaknesses as players, their own likes, and is it typically next to impossible to get 4-5 other players to agree to this. Even if you cajole them into it... they probably don't like their character and that means less invested in the campaign and more likely to want to start another.

Such concepts are often a massive focus on a single tactic. We are talking taking specific classes here, giving up feats and higher level abilities for 2 levels, etc. These typically lead to a rock-paper-scissors fighter where the PCs with either always win easily... until someone has an easy way of countering it and then you are pretty much assured of dying.

Warlocks with devil's site and darkness will probably get you through dozen of combats with no problem (everyone PC gets advantage and every NPC disadvantage, pretty much a slam win). This will likely be boring... combat after combat of them unable to hit you and you destroying them with sneak attacks, ranged blasts, etc. However, then you'll come up with something which this tactic doesn't work against... and you'll likely be torn to bits because none of your 'fighter' doesn't have a second attack, your cleric doesn't have 3rd-level spells, your rogue and ranger can't do damage faster enough, etc. If you are 6th-level, a CR 6 encounter of say... earth elementals, a fifth-level light domain cleric and a hill giant, or a dozen giant spiders and some ettercaps, etc. Once darkness is negated, you are effectively level 4 characters with a few more hit points and ill prepared for CR 6+ encounters where darkness doesn't disable them.

This is true of most concepts to some extent. Mounted combat often fails in cities, dungeons, ladders, or areas with limited space. Everyone having stealth typically means the tanks now do less attack damage or have less hit points (now needing dexterity for medium armor). Folks can't take as varied backgrounds and skills so you might be missing other skills -- social, knowledge, background traits, etc. which could be useful. Everyone having the criminal or urchin background for stealth means no one has say nobility or guild -- which might be important in say sessions in an upper-class area. Probably a lot less of an issue than say warlock levels just for devil's sight, but it still means less diversity.

Unless this is a one-shot or short-term campaign... I'd let players play what they want and not trying this. Concept parties typically don't last long. Players get bored of the same tactics, not being able to shine (since everyone has the same skill set), etc.

[Bloodcloud]

Warlock is not the only one who can fight in the dark. Plenty of class have some workaround...

Moon druid has a few form with blindsense, beastmaster ranger (a use for him!) can use those same beast as companion, an evocation wizard or blasty sorcerer dont care about darkness when launching area spell and can be guided by a bat familliar, the warlock could use his pact of the chain companion to direct. Spirit guardian does not need to see to hurt...

So yeah, without going warlock 2, there are plenty of way to take advantage of Darkness. Note that quite a few enemies are immune too (all devil, dragons, spiders and most snakes...)

[PeteNutButter]

PeteNutButter,

I don't find these type of concept or single strategy parties work well.

Most players won't buy into it. People typically have their own concepts in mind, their own strengths and weaknesses as players, their own likes, and is it typically next to impossible to get 4-5 other players to agree to this. Even if you cajole them into it... they probably don't like their character and that means less invested in the campaign and more likely to want to start another.
Such concepts are often a massive focus on a single tactic. We are talking taking specific classes here, giving up feats and higher level abilities for 2 levels, etc. These typically lead to a rock-paper-scissors fighter where the PCs with either always win easily... until someone has an easy way of countering it and then you are pretty much assured of dying.
Warlocks with devil's site and darkness will probably get you through dozen of combats with no problem (everyone PC gets advantage and every NPC disadvantage, pretty much a slam win). This will likely be boring... combat after combat of them unable to hit you and you destroying them with sneak attacks, ranged blasts, etc. However, then you'll come up with something which this tactic doesn't work against... and you'll likely be torn to bits because none of your 'fighter' doesn't have a second attack, your cleric doesn't have 3rd-level spells, your rogue and ranger can't do damage faster enough, etc. If you are 6th-level, a CR 6 encounter of say... earth elementals, a fifth-level light domain cleric and a hill giant, or a dozen giant spiders and some ettercaps, etc. Once darkness is negated, you are effectively level 4 characters with a few more hit points and ill prepared for CR 6+ encounters where darkness doesn't disable them.
This is true of most concepts to some extent. Mounted combat often fails in cities, dungeons, ladders, or areas with limited space. Everyone having stealth typically means the tanks now do less attack damage or have less hit points (now needing dexterity for medium armor). Folks can't take as varied backgrounds and skills so you might be missing other skills -- social, knowledge, background traits, etc. which could be useful. Everyone having the criminal or urchin background for stealth means no one has say nobility or guild -- which might be important in say sessions in an upper-class area. Probably a lot less of an issue than say warlock levels just for devil's sight, but it still means less diversity.
Unless this is a one-shot or short-term campaign... I'd let players play what they want and not trying this. Concept parties typically don't last long. Players get bored of the same tactics, not being able to shine (since everyone has the same skill set), etc.

Haters gonna hate. Point is they asked me to come up with stuff like this. How it'll actually work is each of them will tell me what they want to play conceptually and I'll help them optimize top down. So if say none of them want heavy armor, boom, give each one stealth proficiency and we can all be sneaky. Average PC has 4-5 skills so even with 1 taken by stealth that is at least 18 other skills the party can cover. I'm not strong arming any of these guys, they are my irl friends.

Now as for the gimmick not working occasionally. I love that, that's when we have to adjust. Since we have been running books/AL adventures, foes are never designed to fight the party, like a home game could be.

Party strategy is something that develops naturally even when not planned. By session 3 with a group everyone knows where they go in party formation and can count on what their teammates will do. You know the sorcerer will through fireballs and the fighter will go up front to tank.

But if a rust monster eats the fighter's heavy armor, then the group adjusts and puts him in the back. If the party is facing monsters immune to fire, the sorcerer has to use other spells that may not be as good. It doesn't mean the gimmick of "keeping the fighter up front, sorcerer throw fireballs" failed so its going to be a TPK. These things just mean the group will struggle a bit more than usual. When the primary strategy fails is when the encounters get fun, because you have to think on your feet instead of doing your go to plan.

[imaginary]

The least investment/least narrowing the better. For instance a party that all took two levels of warlock and abused devil's sight and darkness would be a consideration as everyone could pick up those two levels and a 13 cha, and still play whatever character they wanted. The downside to that is it requires buy-in from pretty much everyone. We have a group of up to 6 players who may or may not all agree to whatever is proposed.


Great thread. I've always loved the idea of a party of all warlocks, though I haven't had the chance to implement it yet. I have a related post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496896-A-party-of-all-Warlocks-(5e)#post21133157) if you haven't already seen it.

I'm also a big fan of teamwork in a party. I've been trying to figure out similar synergies, and build a party designed to work together rather than a bunch of individuals. Instead of optimizing for solo characters, take feats and abilities that benefit everyone like Inspiring Leader, Paladin Auras, and Healer to name a few things. I guess the challenge is really balancing diversity against commonality.

I actually also love the idea of the entire party being able to stealth and also use "Mask of Many Faces". Imagine the potential if everyone can shift appearances together.

If you do choose to create a bunch of warlock based characters, I'd love to know what you come up with. I just started another post for warlock builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499312-Give-me-your-best-Warlock-builds!) myself.

One important thing I've been also considering isn't just optimizing the characters, but also coming up with a strong reason and/or backstory for them to work together. Having a strong roleplaying connection seems more important than their abilities. They must want to work together. Perhaps all the party members are siblings, or part of a specially formed military unit (see other thread), or all have a common purpose or goal.

~Imaginary

[Stygofthedump]

Can I suggest a 'God touched' party? Specifically dice control.
Diviners, bards, wild sourc, halflings, lucky feat, oh my!
You will have so much control over the dice that the DM will start rolling in secret! If you can also work in advantages and disadvantages then your golden at everything.

[borg286]

Warcaster and whips. You dont need to be proficient to have the extended range. This can be added onto any caster. Splash in some polearm master with a quarterstaff in the other hand and your casters can be in melee. They'll sling 2 spells many of the rounds.
If you place your casters on opposite corners of a for and at the edge of the whips range the no matter what they do they get blasted. In darkness it is even worse as they have to guess where you are. Polearm master makes that guessing game really fun. Casting bonfire is even more fun in darkness.

[Naanomi]

My struggle sometimes with 'mechanically themed parties' is that someone invariably 'does it best'... when everyone is a different version of 'be good at stealth', there is still one guy who is better at being stealthy (usually) that overshadows the rest in the thing that they are all supposed to be doing.

Planned parties where everyone is making sure all roles are covered... or that everyone has perception and stealth (without focusing on it per-se) is good... and 'fluff themed parties' are lots of fun (IE: members of a sailing crew). Even parties all trying to do the same thing but in very different ways can be interesting (we had a 'party of four tanks' once where everyone focused a different way on survivability). But I don't care much for 'everyone shares a mechanical schtick', even if it looks good on paper it doesn't play well on the table

[PeteNutButter]

Can I suggest a 'God touched' party? Specifically dice control.
Diviners, bards, wild sourc, halflings, lucky feat, oh my!
You will have so much control over the dice that the DM will start rolling in secret! If you can also work in advantages and disadvantages then your golden at everything.

Added this to the list and credited you. Cool idea.

[imaginary]

Here are a few additional options I came across:


Hex plus spells that require ability checks. Borg286 make a nice list in the Warlock Party thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21086094&postcount=26). If you have a grappler in the group, Hex is great as well.
Here is another thread I started a while back on Twins working together (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471765-Twins-and-working-together). I still like the idea of two melee combats with Sentinel and/or Protection. If the enemy attacks either one, they are asking for it.
A Great Old One Warlock with telepathy could be a good party leader issuing unspoken commands. If more than one was a GOOlock they could have a silent conversation, perhaps good for rogues.


Edit: fixed link to go direction to post.

[SillyPopeNachos]

A Moon Druid will cover both tanking, control, and some healing, a Lore Bard with 1 level of Life Cleric and 3 levels of Sorcerer means your party will survive almost anything, a Wizard will cover arcane versatility, and an Eldritch Knight or Battle Master can cover ranged DPR/control, while the Rogue (any subclass) can cover stealthy ranged DPR well. A Necromancer can control an army of skeleton archers (also ranged DPR, but in mass). An Abjurationist makes enemy casters cry.

[borg286]

Here are a few additional options I came across:


Hex plus spells that require ability checks. Borg286 make a nice list in the Warlock Party thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496896-A-party-of-all-Warlocks-(5e)). If you have a grappler in the group, Hex is great as well.
Here is another thread I started a while back on Twins working together (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471765-Twins-and-working-together). I still like the idea of two melee combats with Sentinel and/or Protection. If the enemy attacks either one, they are asking for it.
A Great Old One Warlock with telepathy could be a good party leader issuing unspoken commands. If more than one was a GOOlock they could have a silent conversation, perhaps good for rogues.


You might want to update your link. The one you have goes to the entire thread, while you probably wanted to copy the link on the post number. Here it is for your ease
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21086094&postcount=26

[imaginary]

You might want to update your link. The one you have goes to the entire thread, while you probably wanted to copy the link on the post number. Here it is for your ease
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21086094&postcount=26

Thanks. Link fixed.

[PeteNutButter]

One thing to add for planned party, is due to the concentration limit of one per PC, it's optimal to have everyone concentrating on a spell, even if it's just a dip to pick up a minor buff. It's much better if someone else can cast bless and the cleric something higher level etc.